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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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Comments

  • #502
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity should a victim who thinks she was raped and is not believed feel any better
    than the one who is believed she was raped?

    No but the accused can feel better.

    Would you feel better if you were wrongfully accused or if someone set out to accuse you?

    By the way you are only a victim if you actually think something happened. If you didnt think you were raped and you accused someone of it, you are not a victim!!


  • #503
    Doltanian
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭Doltanian


    I hope the four lads go and sue every high profile twitter scumbag who is posting their anti-male. feminist hatred. They were found innocent in the court of law and I hope some of these twits on Twitter get sued for Defamation. And it is not ordinary Joe Soap bloggers but high-profile Twitter personalities.


  • #504
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,231 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Mahony0509 wrote: »
    Just had a look at Twitter there. The amount of women who think this happened in the Irish justice system is mad. The case happened in Northern Ireland ffs.
    Never let the truth get in the way of some triggered feminists!


  • #505
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Kivaro wrote: »
    The boys were lucky that you were not on the jury then.
    Better me than you it would appear. At the very least I can comprehend nuance. The lads were found innocent of the charges brought against them. That doesn't establish if she was or was not lying.

    And I'm considered enough not to make a call either way without having anything but media report and gossip. But you know best, right? ;)


  • #506
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    HONKEY TONK wrote: »
    I guess I am wondering is there Perjury laws in Northern Ireland?

    Any criminal prosecution or indeed tort (defamation) will always be balanced against the public good. It's much better to have this sort of debacle than prevent genuine victims from coming forward just as it's better than ten guilty men go free than one innocent man be jailed.


  • #507
    martyc5674
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,522 ✭✭✭martyc5674


    Having been on a Jury for a very similar case(same charges not high profile though) I can say that to get a conviction is extremely difficult.
    Out of the 12 of us we all thought he did it... however as jurors you can only give a guilty verdict if you are beyond reasonable doubt.
    We unanimously gave a not guilty verdict.


  • #508
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,832 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Mahony0509 wrote: »
    Just had a look at Twitter there. The amount of women who think this happened in the Irish justice system is mad. The case happened in Northern Ireland ffs.

    Personally I find those into the hashtag movement can be a little slow at times.


  • #509
    manonboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭manonboard


    Very big outcome.

    I wonder what it will mean for the courage it takes to bring forth a rape case against other people who may/may not have done it/similar.

    For the guys. Well I expected they would be found innocent. Just so much stuff involved, that a reasonable doubt will easily remain. It lacked the hallmark aspects that people are conditioned (incorrectly) to what is considered rape. No dark alley, no stranger. It is hard to override our conditioning.

    The poor girl. Whether it was initiately motivated by regret. I absolutely believe that some of her consent was violated, but i have no idea how externally communicated that consent was. It's such a tricky thing. We change our minds so easily, so often, in reaction to things. We've all had regrets, and later we do truely see them violated boundaries. Perhaps the lads were selfish arrogant asses, but that is not a crime.

    With all things, I suspect it was an element of both. These things are rarely black and white, but the law and verdicts do require a yes or a no at the end of the day.


  • #510
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Mr.H wrote: »
    No but the accused can feel better.

    Would you feel better if you were wrongfully accused or if someone set out to accuse you?

    By the way you are only a victim if you actually think something happened. If you didnt think you were raped and you accused someone of it, you are not a victim!!

    Yeah but that is not what you were saying. You said you hope woman felt she was raped.


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  • #511
    Luxxis
    Registered Users Posts: 141 ✭✭Luxxis


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    Personally I find those into the hashtag movement can be a little slow at times.

    #Imwithfreshpopcorn

    No wait....


  • #512
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    You must be joking. The most likely course of action for the complainant is emigration.

    It's quite clear from the widely conflicting evidence, the changing stories and state of drunkenness of those involved, that this case should never have gone ahead.

    The public prosecution service in NI has some serious questions to answer.

    Drunkenness to a certain point of a woman vitiates consent not withstanding the man's condition. (At least in ROI). Unless the man is so drunk as to be not responsible which is, in practice a much higher level. Figure that one out.


  • #513
    Mutant z
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Mutant z


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Mostly self-inflicted.

    No they were accused of someone which they have been found to be innocent.


  • #514
    _Whimsical_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,958 ✭✭✭_Whimsical_


    razorblunt wrote: »
    If that indeed were the case then McIlroy would have been torn apart by the police and again on the stand.

    As it was I thought they emphasised that McIlroy was a bullshítter, a Jay from the Inbetweeners type character and coat tail hanger oner!

    That was indeed the case, that was the evidence presented to the court, that was his police interview.

    As for him being the sort of person who brags of having sex with someone that didnt happen to the police investigating the rape of that person, well it beggars believe. He'd surely be in jail for admitting to carrying out 9/11 or the great train robbery by now. That's just beyond the bounds of all believability.


  • #515
    Mahony0509
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭Mahony0509


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    Personally I find those into the hashtag movement can be a little slow at times.

    It's madness. All these 18 y/o girls in Cork City thinking they know what they're talking about ffs. They don't even know what damn country the case happened in!


  • #516
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Agreed it was not a cut and dried case and the jury could not be 100% sure it was rape. It was not your classic rape down a dark alley or marital or date rape. There was no real evidence of force used. The woman alleged rape but witnesses including the female witness described it as consensual.
    Personally I think she was hammered drunk, went along with it and regretted it when she came to her senses. Not rape, more of a case of doing something stupid when drunk. We've all done stupid things when drunk that we regretted later.

    There's a good chance that it started somewhat consensually with the first one but it went south very soon - she was handled very roughly (that injury was no joke) and she didn't want any joiners but by then was too overwhelmed to get out of it. So she feels raped (hence the upset and the morning after pill requests) but they don't feel like they raped her. With 20 drinks on board any nuance or confidence in facts is lost. The evidence is not there to convict. No surprise really.


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  • #517
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    irishrebe wrote: »
    Many of them do though. And this is the root of the issue. 'Joking' and 'messing' and 'bantering' about using women like objects, as if it's normal. Phrases like 'look at the tits on that' completing dehumanising women. I see it and hear it all the time. It's chilling how much is dismissed as 'lads' banter'.
    BS.

    I'm sorry but the use of everything to make over-arching points (including this case but plenty of other stuff) is really getting on my nerves.


    I say crude stuff all the ****ing time. It's joking and messing. That's all it is. My sexual prowess is pretty ****ing low and I'm mocking myself with it. I don't rape, it's a long time since I've done anything that could be construed as inappropriate. And to make a big point (becoming what I hate) I know and have heard what some women think of me and it used to annoy me but now I just laugh. I know the difference between a guy who's awkward and a guy who's a creep. The older I get the more I see that women have a pretty damn poor ability to do so. I know a guy who gets on great with the ladies but I would never trust him around a woman. I know plenty of guys who are all straight-laced who've done some borderline rapey stuff, and that's just what I've heard about first-hand. I know girls who've had guys do stuff and they were really surprised (despite a heads-up). Then there's the awkward guy who says the wrong thing. Straight off the bat - CREEP! Some will be, obviously, but I've not come across any of them make a surprise move on a girl alone against a wall or keep getting into bed with a girl who keeps kicking them out.

    That was very ranty I'll admit. :P All's I'm saying is I talk a load of ****e and the vast majority is at my expense. I can say 10 things at my expense but on the 11th I could say something like "Oh remember so-and-so I got with, has she no self-respect?" which I think is obviously a joke at my expense as in what kind of a person would want to get with an ugly ****er like me. Straightaway once I've "degraded" a woman the girls will chime in.

    The guys I know who did all the group stuff (and proper dodgy stuff) back in the day stayed popular with the girls (other than a few girls who were semi-outcast, hmmmm).

    I'll stop typing now :L


  • #518
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Yeah but that is not what you were saying. You said you hope woman felt she was raped.

    Yes and why did I say that?

    Because the opposite means that she lied.

    I hope she didnt lie because that is a horrible thing to do. To lie and pretend someone raped you. That not only destroys those peoples lives but hurts actual victims of the crime.

    So yes I hope she didnt lie and that she had genuinely thought there was a crime.

    For example the evidence sounded like she was pushed into thinking she was raped. So while on the night she might have been having a great time. On looking back she might have thought she didnt consent to it. She may have felt used. This might have made her feel she was raped. This would be a fair motive for pressing charges.

    If on the other hand she thought she wasnt raped but wanted to hurt these guys for whatever reason, then this is a horrible act.


  • #519
    lalababa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭lalababa


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Why? they are innocent.....

    How would anyone think they would be able to punish someone for been innocent?

    If guilty then yes they certainly would never be seen near a rugby shirt again and that would be 100% correct

    Playing rugby isn't like being the pope , it's just a pastime for most, for these lads it's their career. If it was 4 plumbers who were found NOT guilty should they be banned from plumbing. Get a grip!


  • #520
    Nerdlingr
    Registered Users Posts: 4,385 ✭✭✭Nerdlingr


    _Whimsical_ wrote: »
    The defence also had a raft of holes in it.

    During his police interview Blane McIlroy ,who was only accused of exposing himself during the incident ,actually told police he had full sex with the woman that night..

    He told the PSNI she had performed oral sex on him for 5 -10 secs. Not 'full sex'.
    But yeah, you're right about the other stuff. Out of all them, he came across the most walter mitty/ idiotic of the lot.


  • #521
    facehugger99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,391 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    martyc5674 wrote: »
    Having been on a Jury for a very similar case(same charges not high profile though) I can say that to get a conviction is extremely difficult.
    Out of the 12 of us we all thought he did it... however as jurors you can only give a guilty verdict if you are beyond reasonable doubt.
    We unanimously gave a not guilty verdict.

    Extremely difficult to secure a conviction given the circumstances. Plenty of people have effectively gotten away with rape and then the victim gets degraded a second time at trial and a third time by online Twitter mobs.

    It will make many rape victims reconsider whether it's worth the extra trauma.


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  • #522
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    HONKEY TONK wrote: »
    I guess I am wondering is there Perjury laws in Northern Ireland?
    There are. However the balance of probability and beyond a reasonable doubt are two different things, look them up.
    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    In all terms they're innocent. They've not been convicted of a crime. That's all that matters. We don't have degree's of criminal guilt.
    So OJ didn't kill anyone? Grand.
    manonboard wrote: »
    Very big outcome.

    I wonder what it will mean for the courage it takes to bring forth a rape case against other people who may/may not have done it/similar.
    Right from the start this case taught me that if a female friend came to be saying she was raped I'd find it hard to encourage her to go to the Gardai/Police. I've said it to a few people and one who was in a similar situation said she certainly wouldn't encourage it and depending on the circumstances may actively discourage it.


  • #523
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    I know the whatapp group text would be considered distasteful and wouldn't be y thing but I do know guys who'd be into things similar but I also know women one in particular who'd be into that kind of thing.

    The fact that other groups also do it doesn't make it okay. It was horrible and sordid to read, as would be the same texts from any whatsapp group. It showed a complete lack of respect for the woman and for themselves, and if that kind of behaviour and attitude is now 'normal', then what a sad indictment on the society we're turning into.


  • #524
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So OJ didn't kill anyone? Grand.

    Ninja Edit there.

    No but he didn't murder anyone either. (In that case). Although some believe in retrospect it was a miscarriage of justice, which is completely different to a genuine not guilty verdict.


  • #525
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    martyc5674 wrote: »
    Having been on a Jury for a very similar case(same charges not high profile though) I can say that to get a conviction is extremely difficult.
    Out of the 12 of us we all thought he did it... however as jurors you can only give a guilty verdict if you are beyond reasonable doubt.
    We unanimously gave a not guilty verdict.


    That sorta outcome has me wondering how scary it is for true victims to come forward and get help, never mind looking for justice. Cards are totally stacked against them. This verdict regardless of jurisdiction sends the worst message to women and girls who may experience rape. Most go unreported and Statistically most rapists get way with it as above.
    It’s sickening.


  • #526
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Anne1982h wrote: »
    If she went through the court process it was to get justice - there is no other rational explanation for why she would put herself through that.
    Absolutely, I have no doubt that she made the initial complaint to get justice.

    But you can't use that to presuppose that she was actually raped. At a certain point, the pursuit of justice is out of her hands. She doesn't go into it imagining that she's going to spend 8 days on the stand talking about her sexual history or seeing her dirty underwear passed around a courtroom.

    So where she may see herself attending the station and perhaps the guys getting some kind of caution for sexual assault, within a couple of weeks it becomes a juggernaut and she's not the one behind the wheel, she's sitting in the back.

    So you cannot measure the extent of her honesty by what she experienced in the trial. That was completely out of her hands.


  • #527
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,832 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Mahony0509 wrote: »
    It's madness. All these 18 y/o girls in Cork City thinking they know what they're talking about ffs. They don't even know what damn country the case happened in!

    It is to be honest. I followed this trial fairly well and I had an open mind but in the end all I could see happening was a not guilty verdict. Some people just went there guilty and put there hashtag thing under all articles without reading them.


  • #528
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Murdoc90 wrote: »
    4 scumbags, everything you need to know about these lads is in the whatsapp messages!

    Its also in the headlines

    NOT GUILTY


  • #529
    Fanny Wank
    Registered Users Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Fanny Wank


    #IBelieveALotOfPeopleAre****ingStupid


  • #530
    lalababa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭lalababa


    py2006 wrote: »
    Perhaps she offered herself up that way....

    Lots of girls I have known love being treated like a piece of meat some of the time as do I.


  • #531
    Dr Brown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭Dr Brown


    Mossy Monk wrote: »
    Five losers will turn up and realise they are idiots and go home.


    Feminists think all men are rapists.


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  • #532
    ChikiChiki
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭ChikiChiki


    Convinced twitter is turning people daft. You have clowns just spewing out off the cuff nonsense without even thinking about what they are saying. Then you have other reading it, believing it and retweeting the same garbage to hundreds of other gullible fools who are unable to form their own opinions.

    Im all for free speech but twitter seems particularly mobbish and attracts certain many ill informed folk.


  • #533
    Murdoc90
    Registered Users Posts: 942 ✭✭✭Murdoc90


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Its also in the headlines

    NOT GUILTY

    Aye, so is OJ.


  • #534
    _Whimsical_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,958 ✭✭✭_Whimsical_


    strandroad wrote: »
    There's a good chance that it started somewhat consensually woth the first one but it went south very soon - she was handled very roughly (that injury was no joke) and she didn't want any joiners but by then was too overwhelmed to get out of it. So she feels raped (hence the upset and the morning after pill requests) but they don't feel like they raped her. With 20 drinks on board any nuance or confidence in facts is lost. The evidence is not there to convict. No surprise really.

    Well she said she said no.
    Overwhelm would be a completely normal reaction though, not being able to speak up or being afraid to when you have multiple people there,feeling too humiliated or horrified to defend yourself would be how most people would feel. As you say she was hurt too.
    That wouldn't be FEELING raped, that would be being raped.

    I wouldn't class any of that as nuance.
    Yes to them 20 drinks later it may have seemed like nuance, may have seemed she was a willing sex toy in their little world where they're all "top shaggers" but that shouldn't exclude the possibility of an actual rape taking place.


  • #535
    Adamocovic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,292 ✭✭✭Adamocovic


    People can argue whether they believe they did it or not but in the eyes of the law they are innocent. I honestly don't see why so many get caught up on the word "innocent".


  • #536
    Laneyh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 757 ✭✭✭Laneyh


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Its also in the headlines

    NOT GUILTY

    Not guilty of rape/perverting the course of justice/ exposure
    Anyone who wants to can find them guilty of being scumbags there seems to be reasonable evidence of that.


  • #537
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Any criminal prosecution or indeed tort (defamation) will always be balanced against the public good. It's much better to have this sort of debacle than prevent genuine victims from coming forward just as it's better than ten guilty men go free than one innocent man be jailed.

    But what's the shtory with all the tweets that are basically slandering them now?


  • #538
    SAMTALK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,339 ✭✭✭SAMTALK


    py2006 wrote: »
    Guys in their position and more so footballers, boybands and movie stars have women throwing themselves at them. You can't blame young blokes for taken advantage (perhaps poor choice of word) of the situation. High fiving each other. Its just blokes being blokes.

    However, today's climate may change that.

    Sorry but this is your post.

    " you can't blame young blokes for taking advantage"

    Of course you can blame them. Have some respect for themselves and have some respect for the women.

    How would "blokes" feel if they saw someone in their family being treated and talked about like this


  • #539
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,832 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Leonidas Important Blouse wrote: »
    The fact that other groups also do it doesn't make it okay. It was horrible and sordid to read, as would be the same texts from any whatsapp group. It showed a complete lack of respect for the woman and for themselves, and if that kind of behaviour and attitude is now 'normal', then what a sad indictment on the society we're turning into.


    I never said it was okay, did I?
    My point was both men and women can take part in this kind of chat in my experience.


  • #540
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Laneyh wrote: »
    Not guilty of rape/perverting the course of justice/ exposure
    Anyone who wants to can find them guilty of being scumbags there seems to be reasonable evidence of that.

    Of course they are tools

    But they are innocent tools


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  • #541
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nerdlingr wrote: »
    What evidence?

    An eye witness account is a type of evidence.


  • #542
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    Oh my god, my sister has a status with the hashtags #IBelieveHer and #TogetherForYes. As a passionate repealer, I'm annoyed at her and others for conflating the two issues.

    Sis said the female jurors agreed only because a unanimous decision was needed. How would she know that? Very irrational stuff. We used to agree on a lot of things but have diverged quite sharply in recent years.


  • #543
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Murdoc90 wrote: »
    4 scumbags, everything you need to know about these lads is in the whatsapp messages!

    Those messages mean nothing in the context of the trial.


  • #544
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    I never said it was okay, did I?
    My point was both men and women can take part in this kind of chat in my experience.

    Exactly. I know loads of girls who talk like that about men


  • #545
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    Well hopefully it's been a wake up call for those guys, and they might think more carefully about how they conduct themselves, and behave around women and speak about them in future.


  • #546
    py2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,844 ✭✭✭py2006


    SAMTALK wrote: »
    Sorry but this is your post.

    " you can't blame young blokes for taking advantage"

    Of course you can blame them. Have some respect for themselves and have some respect for the women.

    How would "blokes" feel if they saw someone in their family being treated and talked about like this

    Eh, I am talking about rich and famous guys getting lots of female attention and opportunities.


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  • #547
    Murdoc90
    Registered Users Posts: 942 ✭✭✭Murdoc90


    ChikiChiki wrote: »
    Convinced twitter is turning people daft. You have clowns just spewing out off the cuff nonsense without even thinking about what they are saying. Then you have other reading it, believing it and retweeting the same garbage to hundreds of other gullible fools who are unable to form their own opinions.

    Im all for free speech but twitter seems particularly mobbish and attracts certain many ill informed folk.

    You basically described all forms of social media, including this one, where it seems people are outraged by outrage. It's gas craic.


  • #548
    Nerdlingr
    Registered Users Posts: 4,385 ✭✭✭Nerdlingr


    People going on about the whatsapp messages and calling them ALL scumbags. Has anyone read the transcript of what Paddy Jackson wrote as a matter of interest?


  • #549
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Augeo wrote: »
    An eye witness account is a type of evidence.

    link?


  • #550
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    Mr.H wrote:
    NOT GUILTY


    You seem to have overlooked my question in post #488. It's a frantic thread so it's easy happen. Interested to hear your reply.


  • #551
    RocketRaccoon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭RocketRaccoon


    They were found not guilty. Is it time for the tables to be turned on this woman now? Slander? Character defamation? Loss of earnings?


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