Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Railfreight

Options
13567…22

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    rainbowdash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 878 ✭✭✭rainbowdash


    CIE wrote: »
    So you're saying that Ireland is de-modernising while the rich countries of the EU continue to modernise on the country's back? Those other rich countries rely a lot on railways.

    No country that relies on roads and motorways wholly for ground transport gets anywhere at all. If Ireland gets hit by a colossal blizzard next winter, forget about roads—the whole country will be utterly paralysed. Trains are better at getting through rough winter weather like that and don't slip off their tracks like a road vehicle would be slipping around on the asphalt (unless of course you don't prepare for it like Deutsche Bahn failed to last winter with their OHLE frozen over and extremely low availability of snow ploughs for the railways). I cannot think of a single superpower that has eschewed railways for all-road transport..

    in 10 years time we could be looking at driverless luxury double deck double car coaches with lightweight materials travelling limerick Dublin etc. leaving every 20 minutes with 100 passenger seats, powered by batteries charged by the wind.

    That's not demodernising, if and when the next major energy innovation comes along Irish rail can forget it.

    The distances are just too short and the population centres too small, with trains travelling around mountains on routes from the 1850's instead of through them.

    As far as the blizzards are concerned, stockpile extra salt for the once in 20 year event.

    I would love to see a dynamic railway system but I just can't see it in Ireland now that the major motorways are complete.


  • Options
    #63
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    corktina wrote: »
    I see the Oil Tankers pass here every day heading to and from Whitegate. The Oil Distributers collect their own supplies and then off load in their own depots into the delivery tankers. They dont seem to have storage tanks.
    10 miles of track from Midleton to Whitegate and... I'll get me coat :D:D:D:D:D


  • Options
    #64
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    rainbowdash wrote: »
    As far as the blizzards are concerned, stockpile extra salt for the once in 20 year event.
    mwehh, would be no good if it was a bad one no matter how much salt we get.
    rainbowdash wrote: »
    I would love to see a dynamic railway system but I just can't see it in Ireland now that the major motorways are complete.

    the reason why we won't have one is not to do with population densities distances or motor ways, it is because the will just isn't there because of the governments conflict of interest. we could have a proper railway with proper investment, but the government and past governments have and had a vendetta against the railways. sure we got new trains and so on but the speeds haven't improved because if they did improve emencely along with reasonable fairs people would flock to the railways or flock back to them from the motor ways which would mean a loss in revenue because people wouldn't be using the toles.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #65
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    rainbowdash wrote: »
    in 10 years time we could be looking at driverless luxury double deck double car coaches with lightweight materials travelling limerick Dublin etc. leaving every 20 minutes with 100 passenger seats, powered by batteries charged by the wind.

    That's not demodernising, if and when the next major energy innovation comes along Irish rail can forget it.

    The distances are just too short and the population centres too small, with trains travelling around mountains on routes from the 1850's instead of through them.

    As far as the blizzards are concerned, stockpile extra salt for the once in 20 year event.

    I would love to see a dynamic railway system but I just can't see it in Ireland now that the major motorways are complete
    Eh? Major motorways have been complete in many countries for decades...and not a single one of those countries ever dismantled their railway system; rather, those railway systems have made a comeback and even expanded.

    Extra salt does not save roads from blizzards. Those roads close until you can plough them and then salt them, in that order. Railways may need to be ploughed if inactive for a period of time, but they don't need salt for traction and quite often keep running through many blizzards. Once I was stuck on a motorway for close to three hours because a number of HGVs had overturned due to icy conditions; if their freight were on the rails instead, no blockages and I could have made it home at a decent hour.

    The vast majority of railways in Ireland are actually rather straight and travel on mostly level ground, so where did you dream up Alpine-style mountain railways?

    Distance arguments are a canard. Unless that is you are trying to make a case for no-build of motorways as well? because motorways need to be justified by population density too. Every mile of motorway you build means fifty acres of land gone, most likely forever.

    BTW, I'd never get in a driverless train; I'm even wary of them as airport shuttles. Even if your fantasy "driverless double-deck train" et cetera became feasible in a decade, IE would not invest in it. (I do wonder how much Irish money goes towards Deutsche Bahn that does not get reported though.)
    losty dublin wrote: »
    Not exactly. What you have are two different products and two different business models competing for the same business so to some extent it's apples and lemons. Rail freight can't trade at a loss and it has fixed costs to pay that road freight doesn't. Also, road haulage is far more cut throat and flexible in general but rail wins out on fixed loads, like zinc ore or loads containers from Ballina to the ports. The just companies go with what is better for them, which tends to be road.
    It would certainly "tend to be" roads if the government's dictat is to invest more in roads than in rails, especially where they control both. Your "cut-throat" trucking firms would not be getting too far if roads infrastructure investment were more privatised, and private railways would be able to compete better with them especially if their own infrastructure network were larger.


  • Options
    #66
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    davidlacey wrote: »
    How bagged and palletised cement was lossmaking is beyond me as we were in a housing boom and demand was high and many of the flows were closed in 2002 even before the bubble was at its highest!

    Moving the bagged cement was never the problem, handling it was the expensive part of the equation with loading onto lorries then onto trains then unloading to a yard and more loading onto lorries for delivery to the builders providers etc.

    There were just too many "middlemen" needing to get paid for handling. This was not an issue when men were paid Tuppence an hour and could be sacked for spitting or having their hands in their pockets but since Ireland has entered the last century the days of freight and inter-city rail have been numbered.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #67
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    men were paid Tuppence an hour and could be sacked for spitting or having their hands in their pockets
    your watching to much thomas the tank engine or the railway children mate. that sort of stuff never happened, men weren't sacked for spitting or having their hands in their pockets, their wasn't porters or people to carry your trunk or any of that. its all factually incorrect.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    since Ireland has entered the last century the days of freight and inter-city rail have been numbered.

    yeah, because of bad management by the state controlled rail operator. maybe if the railways had never been nationalised such bad management wouldn't have happened but we will never know as none of us were around before nationalisation of the railways.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #68
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,467 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Wow, really, we are going to spend hundreds of millions on rail, just in case it might snow for a few days!!! :eek:

    I really have heard it all now.

    Or you know we could just buy snow tires for our cars like they do up in Norway, madness I know!!


  • Options
    #69
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    dowlingm wrote: »
    10 miles of track from Midleton to Whitegate and... I'll get me coat :D:D:D:D:D

    plus another very hilly 25 miles from Newmarket to Abbeyfeale and reinstating a few old lines....


  • Options
    #70
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    end of the road wrote: »
    your watching to much thomas the tank engine or the railway children mate. that sort of stuff never happened, men weren't sacked for spitting or having their hands in their pockets, their wasn't porters or people to carry your trunk or any of that. its all factually incorrect.


    you want to check your facts there...people were transported to Australia for stealing a few turnips and there were indeed many Porters employed to hump articles to and from trains


  • Options
    #71
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,247 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    dowlingm wrote: »
    10 miles of track from Midleton to Whitegate and... I'll get me coat :D:D:D:D:D
    Zero miles from Tivoli to the railway or from Dublin or Galway docks to the railway.
    CIE wrote: »
    Distance arguments are a canard. Unless that is you are trying to make a case for no-build of motorways as well?
    For many products, rail isn't practical - up to a distance of 300km, trucks will beat it for most of them.

    If you want a rail freight revival, put every single new factory next to the railway.
    Every mile of motorway you build means fifty acres of land gone, most likely forever.
    Typical motorways aren't 130 metres wide, more like 25-30 metres from fence to fence.
    I do wonder how much Irish money goes towards Deutsche Bahn that does not get reported though.
    Pardon?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #72
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    Still not getting it, I see. When the government builds more roads than rails, whatever is "practical" is 100 percent under government control. Unless private enterprises are allowed to build and maintain railways that is. The more government control, the less flexibility any transport mode can exhibit.

    I did overestimate badly though; but fifteen acres per mile assuming a 40-metre roadway is quite a big loss. A railway still can move a lot more freight over a far narrower footprint. The government is keeping that from the public and from business though.


  • Options
    #73
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    only if that freight exists, it doesnt. What railway lines do you envisage the private sector building?


  • Options
    #74
    Sligo Quay
    Registered Users Posts: 729 ✭✭✭Sligo Quay


    corktina wrote: »
    I see the Oil Tankers pass here every day heading to and from Whitegate. The Oil Distributers collect their own supplies and then off load in their own depots into the delivery tankers. They dont seem to have storage tanks.
    Well whatever, every situation is different, Irish Rail have massive storage tanks in their fuel depot on Alexandra rd, depending on individual business needs, sometimes storage tanks are need for stockpiling or whatever, I know Reynolds Logistics have the current contract for the fuel oil, it doesn't go by rail anymore, I know Cold Chon bitumen at Sligo Quay where never consult when the line along deep water was lifted, it was lifted to facilitate drainage works and was never put back, Cold Chon was not too happy about that, speaking of storage tanks, take look here http://www.coldchon.ie/ it should be about facilitating the customers needs, sometimes rail does it better than road, somtimes road does it better than rail, its getting the balance right without any hidden agenda.


  • Options
    #75
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    That Irish Rail don't move their own fuel by Rail to their depots around the Country speaks volumes about Railfreight surely.


  • Options
    #76
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    corktina wrote: »
    That Irish Rail don't move their own fuel by Rail to their depots around the Country speaks volumes about Railfreight surely.

    No it speaks volumes about CIE's mentality. They were even sending the weekly circulars out by courier at one stage - may still be. Then they were hiring a road courier to carry the Fastrack instead of the train on the Rosslare route.....do you see where all this is heading....a virtual railway.....:rolleyes:


  • Options
    #77
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    CIE, bastardising the irish railways into oblivian since 1945. our mission is simple, it is that of self destruction slowly but surely until theirs nothing left, we don't want it but nobody else can have it.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #78
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    bk wrote: »
    Wow, really, we are going to spend hundreds of millions on rail, just in case it might snow for a few days!!! :eek:

    I really have heard it all now.

    Or you know we could just buy snow tires for our cars like they do up in Norway, madness I know!!


    Some posters think that rail enthusiasts just back rail out of some Thomas the tank engine unfulfilled fantasy they dream off. We had a Rosslare / Waterford rail thread running here for quite a while, in which we put the case as to why this line should not have been shut down. I am glad to say An Taisce have referred to the very points we were making, plus a reference to rail freight - the topic being discussed here. Scroll down to Paragraph 1.4.4

    http://www.antaisce.org/Portals/5/Rio20/Rio%20submission%20UN%2031%2010%2011.pdf


    The second link shows that the justification for rail goes a little deeper than a snow drift in that road transport does nothing to ease our carbon emissions. As stated before an electrified rail network, powered as much as possible by wind energy and/or nuclear - achieves exactly that. All this is proven technology, no science fiction fantasies about super duper batteries that as yet havn't been developed to any practical level for heavy road transport over long distances.

    http://irishrailwaynews.multiply.com/journal/item/4668


  • Options
    #79
    davidlacey
    Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    UCD Economist colm mccarthy also thinks that us rail enthusiasts are just living our Thomas the tank engine fantasies , i remember the prime time programme last year about the WRC and the merits and demerits of it and he stated that it must be because of childhood fantasies behind some peoples reasoning of keeping some of these non-profit lines open. He maybe a good economist but when he speaks of railways, he may as well be on the island of sodor.


  • Options
    #80
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    davidlacey wrote: »
    UCD Economist colm mccarthy also thinks that us rail enthusiasts are just living our Thomas the tank engine fantasies , i remember the prime time programme last year about the WRC and the merits and demerits of it and he stated that it must be because of childhood fantasies behind some peoples reasoning of keeping some of these non-profit lines open. He maybe a good economist but when he speaks of railways, he may as well be on the island of sodor.

    he's a reincarnation of tod andrews. andrews and him = cut from the same cloth. he should stick to looking at ways to make the railways at least break even not looking to shut them down and mock those who support railways. not everyone who supports railways is an enthusiast. at least enthusiasts know how the railway works and worked in the past along with what was done wrong. they can offer suggestions on what to do and what not to do.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #81
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    On the other side of the coin though, many enthuiasts are unrealistic in their support of railways come-what-may . I'm an Enthuiast but I don't want to see money wasted on a hopeless case line just so I can watch the trains go by.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #82
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,467 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    But was he not correct about the WRC? An awful waste of money that has done a great deal to damage the future of rail in Ireland.


  • Options
    #83
    davidlacey
    Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    bk wrote: »
    But was he not correct about the WRC? An awful waste of money that has done a great deal to damage the future of rail in Ireland.

    He was right but saying people must have be back relieving their childhood fantasies of trains is wrong! Shot at enthuasaists


  • Options
    #84
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    but i feel many enthusiasts are exactly like that!


  • Options
    #85
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    davidlacey wrote: »
    He was right but saying people must have be back relieving their childhood fantasies of trains is wrong! Shot at enthuasaists
    Who lobbied asnd fought for the WRC to be rebuilt and reopened? the people didn't want it or they would be using it! enthusuasts who want to be able to brag that they forced a struggling company to reopen a disused obsolete line when there was more than ample and faster and far cheaper options.

    I have nothing against enthusiasts or even trainspotters as i can see the attractions of it but they must be shown that they are not in charge of anything on the railways!


  • Options
    #86
    yachtsman
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭yachtsman


    And this week the Government announced an investment of €600m in a 35 mile motorway between Gort (population 4000 and Tuam (population 6000) - and the mccarthyites called the investment of one tenth of that sum in a railway thoroughfare which the state already owned between Ennis and Athenry a waste of money!


  • Options
    #87
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,467 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    yachtsman wrote: »
    And this week the Government announced an investment of €600m in a 35 mile motorway between Gort (population 4000 and Tuam (population 6000) - and the mccarthyites called the investment of one tenth of that sum in a railway thoroughfare which the state already owned between Ennis and Athenry a waste of money!

    Given that no one is using it and requires an ongoing 3 million subsidy per year to run it, while it is faster to take the bus, then yes, it was a waste of money.


  • Options
    #88
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    the populations of Tuam and Gort are not relevant. It isnt designed for people travelling from there to there (as well you know I suspect!)


  • Options
    #89
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Who lobbied asnd fought for the WRC to be rebuilt and reopened? the people didn't want it or they would be using it! enthusuasts who want to be able to brag that they forced a struggling company to reopen a disused obsolete line when there was more than ample and faster and far cheaper options.

    I have nothing against enthusiasts or even trainspotters as i can see the attractions of it but they must be shown that they are not in charge of anything on the railways!

    And I wonder why that might be - getting in the way of your complete shutdown perhaps !!! :rolleyes:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79750225&postcount=115
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    In short Irish rail have had their chips and far too long IMHO to sort themselves out, there really is no conceivable way that rail travel will be anything other than an expensive plaything for those who frequent first class and a massive burden on the state until it is dismantled. By all means keep old alignments like Waterford to limerick junction but no more care and maintenance please.

    As for tourists there are not enough enthusiasts to keep a whole railway network running just for tourism.

    There are buses which are faster more comfortable and far cheaper on all routes so get rid of the railway now instead of pouring more money down into the money spong that Irish rail has always been.


  • Options
    #90
    yachtsman
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭yachtsman


    corktina wrote: »
    the populations of Tuam and Gort are not relevant. It isnt designed for people travelling from there to there (as well you know I suspect!)

    I recall that when the same point was made by those arguing that the WRC was about connecting the second, third and fourth cities of the state by rail they were ridiculed. I heard mccarthy, mcdowell et al scoff at the futility of connecting Ennis, "the middle of newhere" with Athenry, "the middle of nowhere" ad nauseum. The purest of double speak and double standards!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #91
    dermo88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dermo88


    A complete shutdown is a somewhat melodramatic suggestion. What is more likely is to restructure Iarnrod Eireann in such a manner as to allow railfreight to grow.

    Unfortunately, Irish conditions are probably the least conducive in Europe to the development of Railfreight, and it was identified in 1994 that the loss of one sector such as Cement, Guinness etc, would have a cascade effect across others, and that has come to pass.

    The Freight flows from Ballina for example show what is possible. Rail enthusiasts do have knowledge, but some are not - how shall I say, commercially aware. Having said that, there are plenty who I sincerely believe that given the chance on a small salary could be 'hungrier' for business than civil servants and penpushers who get salaried by CIE and are waiting for the redundancy package.

    Mc Carthy and Todd Andrews are like chalk and cheese. What Andrews did was necessary in the context of the time, allowing what survived to thrive and do well.

    Buses vs Trains should never be an 'either/or' they both have a complimentary role to fulfil. Trains are good at moving large numbers of people and beating traffic jams. Buses are good at handling smaller volumes.


Advertisement