Jordan Peterson interview on C4

19-02-2020 5:04pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

OK. A guy turning up to an athletics event saying "I'm a woman let me in" I wouldn't be on board with. Thing is though something like that basically never happens anyway. The people who are passionate about this stuff, because it is literally their entire life, are people who more often than not transition, who live their life by the gender they believe that they should be. I think if somebody lives their life as that gender they should be treated as such.

I don't know of any cases in ireland but legally we have self id so it can. In the states, girls are losing scholarships over this. Someone who transitioned knocked a couple women off in weightlifting for some qualifying event that i understand was their gateway to the olympics or some such.
If its a problem elsewhere and we have no barriers to it here then we should be aware. Fallon fox breaking a woman's jaw should have been enough tbh. She was quoted afterwards saying the difference in strength straight away was scary.
Secondary school lads can and will break top female athlete running records. Just no comparison

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 5:05pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

OK. A guy turning up to an athletics event saying "I'm a woman let me in" I wouldn't be on board with. Thing is though something like that basically never happens anyway. The people who are passionate about this stuff, because it is literally their entire life, are people who more often than not transition, who live their life by the gender they believe that they should be. I think if somebody lives their life as that gender they should be treated as such.

That literally happened in Connecticut. There is lawsuit going on at the moment about it.

I don’t think men who transition should be in women’s sports because most of the physical advantages remain. And if a boy transitions before puberty and doesn’t gain those advantages, that’s also unethical because those blockers shouldn’t be given to children.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 5:06pm

bluewolf wrote: »

No, male sex offender in the dochas centre

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/sex-offender-undergoing-male-female-16623261.amp

Realistically how often does this happen? Again we've already gone over how trans people tend to be almost 50% less likely to commit sexual assault than cis people. The person linked in your article is a horrible person. Any sex offender is a horrible person. Using 1 horrible person as a crutch to beat an at risk minority is not fair.

19-02-2020 5:07pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Realistically how often does this happen? Again we've already gone over how trans people tend to be almost 50% less likely to commit sexual assault than cis people. The person linked in your article is a horrible person. Any sex offender is a horrible person. Using 1 horrible person as a crutch to beat an at risk minority is not fair.

Nobody is beating anyone but it can happen, it has happened, and women should not be put at risk of assault in the interest of "fairness". It happened in the uk. It happened in canada. It is happening and women are at risk too. We're not sacrifices for political correctness.

At least the person in the dochas centre is being guarded 24/7 but i don't know how sustainable that is

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 5:08pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That literally happened in Connecticut. There is lawsuit going on at the moment about it.

I don’t think men who transition should be in women’s sports because most of the physical advantages remain. And if a boy transitions before puberty and doesn’t gain those advantages, that’s also unethical because those blockers shouldn’t be given to children.

Then that board needs to look at their rules and regulations. From a competitive point of view testing is in place, if anything it's becoming more and more stringent. To be very honest, in all my time in LGBTQ groups and of the trans people I've come across, a small percentage of them have any interest in sport. Something like that is for sporting bodies to consider, again it's not a reason to deny a person rights.

19-02-2020 5:10pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Then that board needs to look at their rules and regulations. From a competitive point of view testing is in place, if anything it's becoming more and more stringent. To be very honest, in all my time in LGBTQ groups and of the trans people I've come across, a small percentage of them have any interest in sport. Something like that is for sporting bodies to consider, again it's not a reason to deny a person rights.

Which rights are being denied?

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 5:10pm

bluewolf wrote: »

Nobody is beating anyone but it can happen, it has happened, and women should not be put at risk of assault in the interest of "fairness". It happened in the uk. It happened in canada. It is happening and women are at risk too. We're not sacrifices for political correctness.

At least the person in the dochas centre is being guarded 24/7 but i don't know how sustainable that is

But how would that person fair in a mens prison? If they've transitioned, they'd be preyed upon by male prisoners, an easy target.

19-02-2020 5:11pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

But how would that person fair in a mens prison? If they've transitioned, they'd be preyed upon by male prisoners, an easy target.

Women are preyed upon by people like "karen white" as easy targets. There are no easy answers here and putting women at risk like they did in the uk is not an answer

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 5:13pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Then that board needs to look at their rules and regulations. From a competitive point of view testing is in place, if anything it's becoming more and more stringent. To be very honest, in all my time in LGBTQ groups and of the trans people I've come across, a small percentage of them have any interest in sport. Something like that is for sporting bodies to consider, again it's not a reason to deny a person rights.

It doesn’t matter if it’s a small amount, it will still skew things badly. I believe 2000 men in the world can run the 100m faster than the women’s Olympic champion. We’ve seen out of shape, self IDing men top podiums beside lithe, honed women.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 5:13pm

bluewolf wrote: »

Women are preyed upon by people like "karen white" as easy targets. There are no easy answers here and putting women at risk like they did in the uk is not an answer

But what is your solution?

If a man has medically transitioned, has legally transitioned into a woman, where would you put that person?

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 19-02-2020 5:14pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Realistically how often does this happen?

How many anatomically male sex offenders would have to be incarcerated in women's prisons for you to take it seriously?

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

To be very honest, in all my time in LGBTQ groups and of the trans people I've come across, a small percentage of them have any interest in sport.

How many anatomical males would have to dominate women's sports for you to take it seriously?

The mother of a female Connecticut high-school athlete writes:

Since 2017, our state’s high-school athletic conference has allowed biological boys to compete against girls. It’s enough that they subjectively identify as female. Since then, two biological boys have won 15 women’s track championships, titles held by nine different girls in 2016.

Not only that, the same two biological boys have taken away more than 50 chances for girls to compete at the next level of competition, running these girls right off the track and forcing them to be spectators in their own sport.

Of course, there's no real problem here because, according to you, trans individuals generally aren't all that interested in sports.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 5:17pm

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

How many anatomically male sex offenders would have to be incarcerated in women's prisons for you to take it seriously?

How many anatomical males would have to dominate women's sports for you to take it seriously? The mother of a Connecticut athlete writes:

Of course, there's no real problem here because, according to you, trans individuals generally aren't all that interested in sports.

Well Permabear how many trans people do you know that are interested in sport from your own personal experience? Is it possible that you're reading a little too much into 1 or 2 stories and you've reached the conclusion that it's a pandemic? Infact would you say that, by and large, you never encounter a transgender person in your life, and, chances are, when you do, you don't even notice? That this sport, prison and bathroom problem is barely a problem at all in the grand scheme of things?

Titclamp · 19-02-2020 5:19pm

Well it took a man to be woman of the year.

19-02-2020 5:22pm

It is a very big problem for women who have dedicated their lives to their sport only to be pushed out and denied opportunities. I thought this was about empathy and compassion?
Do these women not matter because you haven't personally encountered them?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_58d280efe4b02d33b7474cfd/amp

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a29578581/rachel-mckinnon-world-championship-masters-win-transgender-sport-debate/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/05/16/stripped-womens-records-transgender-powerlifter-asks-where-do-we-draw-line/%3foutputType=amp

https://bjj-world.com/transgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-breaks-skull-of-her-female-opponent/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/pluralist.com/hannah-mouncey-transgender-handball/amp/

Or women who just want to play casually?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/rugby-union/49298550

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 19-02-2020 5:24pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Well Permabear how many trans people do you know that are interested in sport from your own personal experience?

How many does it take? As the article notes, two anatomical males have won 15 women’s track championships in the state of Connecticut since 2017.

What incentive does that give girls to train hard for years and do their very best at their sport, knowing that there's a good likelihood they'll be beaten in the championship race by a boy?

This is taking equality of opportunity away from girls.

20Cent · 19-02-2020 5:29pm

Sporting bodies have rules about trans athletes.
It's not an insurmountable problem or a reason to discriminate.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 5:32pm

bluewolf wrote: »

It is a very big problem for women who have dedicated their lives to their sport only to be pushed out and denied opportunities. I thought this was about empathy and compassion?
Do these women not matter because you haven't personally encountered them?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_58d280efe4b02d33b7474cfd/amp

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a29578581/rachel-mckinnon-world-championship-masters-win-transgender-sport-debate/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/05/16/stripped-womens-records-transgender-powerlifter-asks-where-do-we-draw-line/%3foutputType=amp

https://bjj-world.com/transgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-breaks-skull-of-her-female-opponent/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/pluralist.com/hannah-mouncey-transgender-handball/amp/

Or women who just want to play casually?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/rugby-union/49298550

I'm gay but I've encountered women.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 5:33pm

20Cent wrote: »

Sporting bodies have rules about trans athletes.
It's not an insurmountable problem or a reason to discriminate.

I feel like a lot of people wish that they did not have those rules as it's just a facade to attack a minority with.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 19-02-2020 5:33pm

Biological male athlete Andraya Yearwood shows those Connecticut girls how it's done:

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 5:33pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Asked you several times to name a single example of a trans athlete competing causing controversy in Ireland and you haven't named a single instance. Asked you if a person who has legally assumed a different gender should be granted access to that bathroom, still no response.

Do we have to wait for these things to happen? If it’s becoming a problem elsewhere, why would Ireland be exempt? Why not take preventative measures?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 5:35pm

20Cent wrote: »

Sporting bodies have rules about trans athletes.
It's not an insurmountable problem or a reason to discriminate.

Well, the IOC tried to row back on the recent changes they made without success. For the 2020 games, all they require is a reduction in testosterone. All other physical advantages remain.

Junkyard Tom · 19-02-2020 5:37pm

The sport thing is just idiotic - what kind of arsehole feels good about themselves winning a race with an 'enhanced chassis' as it were. Can they not create a 'born female' category to flush these people out of women's sport?

19-02-2020 5:38pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The sport thing is just idiotic - what kind of arsehole feels good about themselves winning a race with an 'enhanced chassis' as it were. Can they not create a 'born female' category to flush these people out of women's sport?

That's what they had..

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 5:40pm

bluewolf wrote: »

back to trolling?

Already established that this has not been an issue in Ireland. Already established that any sporting event worth anything at all has measures in place that all athletes must fall in line with.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 19-02-2020 5:41pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

TCan they not create a 'born female' category to flush these people out of women's sport?

No, because a trans woman is just as much of a woman as someone who was born female — if you disagree you're a transphobic bigot.

19-02-2020 5:41pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Already established that this has not been an issue in Ireland. Already established that any sporting event worth anything at all has measures in place that all athletes must fall in line with.

already established that you said you agreed it doesn't work but now you're back to accusing everyone of 'attacking a minority' for feeling the same way. and 'i'm gay but i have encountered women' is what, a wind up?

test levels 2-3x of what any woman would have, and nothing about bone density and all the over advantages of male puberty

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 5:44pm

bluewolf wrote: »

already established that you said you agreed it doesn't work but now you're back to accusing everyone of 'attacking a minority' for feeling the same way

I agree that any athlete competing in an event must fall in line with the rules and regulations of an event. A man turning up one day to a ladies marathon, declaring himself to be a woman to allow him to compete (by the way, the chances of this actually happening are basically minuscule and it feels ridiculous even writing it but apparently this is what some people fear the most!) would fall foul of the sporting bodies regulations. A trans person who has undergone a medical transition and who falls in line with the sporting bodies regulations is free to compete.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 19-02-2020 5:45pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Already established that this has not been an issue in Ireland.

No coronavirus deaths in Ireland, either. Absolutely nothing to worry about then.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 5:45pm

bluewolf wrote: »

the first line of that video is 'i've been told i'm transphobic for liking vagina. who i date is not up for debate'. also followed by 'trans women are women'
seems to be a clickbait title. top comment replies from trans women in full agreement with the message

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dumQfzcrOzk

exactly the same message that got her deplatformed from pride, it looks like

That is a great pithy slogan because here’s the thing: dating is discriminatory by its nature. NOBODY has to justify who they will or won’t date. “I don’t want to date you” is all the explanation anyone is entitled to. That anyone thinks they can question other people’s dating preferences is unbelievable.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 5:47pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The sport thing is just idiotic - what kind of arsehole feels good about themselves winning a race with an 'enhanced chassis' as it were. Can they not create a 'born female' category to flush these people out of women's sport?

But you see, now even biological sex is coming under attack. This is where intersex people get used as examples (even though they can’t change how they were born either).

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 5:47pm

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

No coronavirus deaths in Ireland, either. Absolutely nothing to worry about then.

Have you cut yourself off from the outside world by quarantining yourself yet? Because, if not, maybe you're at risk of catching the coronavirus, and if you care so much about it maybe that's what you should do. Equally, I look forward to seeing so many avid female sports fans discuss female sports in the designated forums over the next few months.

20Cent · 19-02-2020 5:48pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That is a great pithy slogan because here’s the thing: dating is discriminatory by its nature. NOBODY has to justify who they will or won’t date. “I don’t want to date you” is all the explanation anyone is entitled to. That anyone thinks they can question other people’s dating preferences is unbelievable.

It sure is unbelievable.
It's probably about three people in the world saying they should. Using it as an excuse discriminate is bad though.

Will I Am Not · 19-02-2020 5:49pm

“Yeah but how many people do that”?
There’s 2 women’s prisons in Ireland. All it takes is 2 men to identify as women to affect the entire female prison population of the country. So that’s just one more...

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 5:56pm

20Cent wrote: »

They already are.

They already are what? Born without sex?

No one is suggesting that.

I recall seeing some official literature on cervical cancer screening in Ireland that did not mention the word ‘woman’ once. I believe the same has happened in the UK. “What’s the problem?” one might ask. Well, this is about awareness, reaching people. The message shouldn’t be diluted.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 6:05pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

OK then in a non confrontational way as somebody who has supported gay rights and who probably would consider himself a gay ally, where do you stand on trans rights?

Quick edit: I'm not trying to lure you into a trap with the question, I'm genuinely curious coming at it from an angle of if you're liberal enough to have fought for gay rights, I'd just like to know why are trans rights a step too far for you.

Missed this. The trans right I take issue with are those that clash with the rights of others.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 6:08pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Missed this. The trans right I take issue with are those that clash with the rights of others.

OK so what rights do you believe that they clash with?

20Cent · 19-02-2020 6:11pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

They already are what? Born without sex?

Yes they are called intersex.
Some are born with ambiguous genitalia as well.

There is a famous case of twin boys.
There was an accident when circumcising one of them so the doctor castrated him and made a vagina. He was raised a a girl but when he reached puberty rejected anything feminine and was suicidal with depression. Being male of female isn't down to just genitals.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-11814300

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I recall seeing some official literature on cervical cancer screening in Ireland that did not mention the word ‘woman’ once. I believe the same has happened in the UK. “What’s the problem?” one might ask. Well, this is about awareness, reaching people. The message shouldn’t be diluted.

Whats that got to do with the subject at hand?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 6:13pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Well Permabear how many trans people do you know that are interested in sport from your own personal experience? Is it possible that you're reading a little too much into 1 or 2 stories and you've reached the conclusion that it's a pandemic? Infact would you say that, by and large, you never encounter a transgender person in your life, and, chances are, when you do, you don't even notice? That this sport, prison and bathroom problem is barely a problem at all in the grand scheme of things?

Again, you’re missing the point. There doesn’t have to be many transgender athletes for things to be skewed. Seeing a doughy man top a podium beside honed women neatly highlights this.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 6:14pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Again, you’re missing the point. There doesn’t have to be many transgender athletes for things to be skewed. Seeing a doughy man top a podium beside honed women neatly highlights this.

No come back to the other question about what rights would be infringed do you think by giving trans people full rights?

19-02-2020 6:15pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

No come back to the other question about what rights would be infringed do you think by giving trans people full rights?

the more original question was what rights are they being denied

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 6:17pm

20Cent wrote: »

Yes they are called intersex.
Some are born with ambiguous genitalia as well.

There is a famous case of twin boys.
There was an accident when circumcising one of them so the doctor castrated him and made a vagina. He was raised a a girl but when he reached puberty rejected anything feminine and was suicidal with depression. Being male of female isn't down to just genitals.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-11814300

He felt like he was a boy and he was born male. I don’t think that really helps your point at all.

As for the bolded, intersex babies are intersex. Most babies are not intersex. And guess what? Intersex babies can’t change their chromosomes either. They are always intersex.

Jeebus. I guess I’m partial as a biology graduate but the poor grasp of basic science by huge swathes of the population never fails to depress me.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 6:19pm

bluewolf wrote: »

the more original question was what rights are they being denied

Apparently the right to pee anywhere or get changed after a gym session anywhere aside from a dark corridor.

Really though it's simple things and we should be trying to make their lives as easy and as comfortable as ours. Things that we take for granted are things that are everyday problems for them. I suppose ultimately what I'm saying is, if people actually treated trans people in the way in which they speak about them in this thread I'd say that would be despicable, a little bit of empathy, a little bit of consideration for a person whose most likely had a really tough life can go such a long way.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 6:19pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

No come back to the other question about what rights would be infringed do you think by giving trans people full rights?

Plenty of come back actually. You’ve been given examples on this thread. Lots.

Women’s rights are encroached to accommodate trans rights.

20Cent · 19-02-2020 6:20pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

He felt like he was a boy and he was born male. I don’t think that really helps your point at all.

As for the bolded, intersex babies are intersex. Most babies are not intersex. And guess what? Intersex babies can’t change their chromosomes either. They are always intersex.

Jeebus. I guess I’m partial as a biology graduate but the poor grasp of basic science by huge swathes of the population never fails to depress me.

She didn't say most babies are intersex.
She said babies are born without sex.
This is true.

He had female genitalia and raised female but his brain was a boys and this caused him great distress to the point of being suicidal. That's the point thought it was clear.

19-02-2020 6:20pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Apparently the right to pee anywhere or get changed after a gym session anywhere aside from a dark corridor.

Really though it's simple things and we should be trying to make their lives as easy and as comfortable as ours. Things that we take for granted are things that are everyday problems for them. I suppose ultimately what I'm saying is, if people actually treated trans people in the way in which they speak about them in this thread I'd say that would be despicable, a little bit of empathy, a little bit of consideration for a person whose most likely had a really tough life can go such a long way.

so... no rights are being denied?

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 6:20pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

You’ve been given examples on this thread. Lots.

No but I want yours. Which ones do you think are infringed upon by giving trans people all the rights that you and I have.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 6:21pm

bluewolf wrote: »

so... no rights are being denied?

I don't know, what rights do you think are denied? Or, more pressingly because this thread is about a man who would advocate for trans people being second class citizens, what rights would you like to be taken away?

19-02-2020 6:22pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I don't know, what rights do you think are denied??

nope. you keep saying they don't have the same rights as anyone else and that we're denying them rights. which rights?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-02-2020 6:22pm

20Cent wrote: »

She didn't say most babies are intersex.
She said babies are born without sex.
This is true.

He had female genitalia and raised female but his brain was a boys and this caused him great distress to the point of being suicidal. That's the point thought it was clear.

No, it’s not possible for a baby to not have a biological sex. Having an intersex karyotype is also a biological sex.

LineOfBeauty · 19-02-2020 6:23pm

bluewolf wrote: »

nope. you keep saying they don't have the same rights as anyone else and that we're denying them rights. which rights?

I'm saying that culturally it's difficult for transgender people and that the attitude of some would have them turned into second class citizens, I'm asking you what rights do you want to take from them?

Jordan Peterson interview on C4

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