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How do people afford GEM?
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Killergreene wrote: »Easy to accuse someone of trolling if the argument doesn't fit your narrative.
There are doctors in this country living on the breadline, most of them studied as gems. You cannot afford a wife, a kid a house and a car on 40k a year while paying back 1500 a month. The numbers don't add up. Offer counter figures if you can really prove your point.
Loads of hospitals don't pay overtime. If yours does, congrats.
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/news/201281/Trainee-doctors-vote-for-strike-at.html
You slate UL any chance you get, calling it a "sham" course. Yet, you do plenty of posting in "Official bitch about daily life in UL". So, did you go there and you're not happy with how you performed or if you've finished yet. You've been asked a few times regarding the stage you're at, you never tell us. I've met a UL intern and a UL SHO who's on the Paeds scheme, both fine knowledgeable doctors.
You're narative is constant negativity, that's why I call you a troll. I've asked a lot of interns about overtime pay, in most institutions there seems to be no problem.0 -
I wouldn't have a bad word to say about ul or being paid or intern or a lot of the daily life as a junior doc in Ireland so there's some balance. It's just so much easier and nicer in other jurisdictions.
I'm 3 yrs away from ccst here and prob another 3 years of fellowships before I'll even get a locum consultancy(I might well struggle to even get any of the good fellowships around the world). So it's a no brainier for me to go. I'll be done forever in 3 yrs.
Matching was a long road and very difficult and expensive. Probably 20k and 2.5 yrs work...
The college here are overall ok with it0 -
20k is some whack of change. Congrats.
You're better off. All you get here is hr trying to f*ck you and colleagues trying to one up you or stab you in the back when it comes to research etc. Specialty dependent of course.0 -
Posting negative comments again with nothing to back it up.0
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Again you offer very little information to support your own argument. HVe you ever worked a 24 or 36 hour shift? And then not been paid for it?
This happens regularly.
UL course has lot of deficiencies in pre clinical years and clinical years. Very little microbiology, biochemistry teaching.anatomy self learned from quiz books. Poor usmle scores and poor Canadian matches. Us students can't get government loans to study in UL because usmle scores have been too poor. I went to Ucc. Excellent didactic course.0 -
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Killergreene wrote: »Poor usmle scores and poor Canadian matches. Us students can't get government loans to study in UL because usmle scores have been too poor.
You have proof for this yourself i assume?0 -
You have proof for this yourself i assume?
Because as a UL grad who scored off the charts in my North American exams and matched to one of the most competitive schemes i think you are making this entirely up.
(and every single person in my class who wanted to match to North america matched from anaesthetics to radiology to vasc surg and lots doing ICU now)
He's a troll, claims to have gone to UCC but every second thing he posts is about UL. Strange that.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 2477
Mod note
Can we please cut the bickering and get back on topic? If you have a problem with someone else's posts, please use the report post function rather than resorting to insults.
Killergreene, you've been warned about your unhelpful posting about UL previously, keep things constructive or further mod actions will follow.
Any queries, please PM me.0 -
OP, have you spoken to any clinical psychologists? From what I understand, it's extremely competitive to get onto the D.Clin. I work in psychiatry at the moment, and there are quite a few psychology graduates in the hospital doing long-term, unpaid placements just to accrue some experience to boost their applications to the doctorate.
I would say medicine would be a much safer bet, in terms of progression and income. Incidentally, if you're interested in clinical psychology, wouldn't studying medicine with the option of specialising in psychiatry be a solid option? It's one of the easier schemes to get a place in, and the work-life balance is probably up there with GP.0 -
A Neurotic wrote: »OP, have you spoken to any clinical psychologists? From what I understand, it's extremely competitive to get onto the D.Clin. I work in psychiatry at the moment, and there are quite a few psychology graduates in the hospital doing long-term, unpaid placements just to accrue some experience to boost their applications to the doctorate.
I would say medicine would be a much safer bet, in terms of progression and income. Incidentally, if you're interested in clinical psychology, wouldn't studying medicine with the option of specialising in psychiatry be a solid option? It's one of the easier schemes to get a place in, and the work-life balance is probably up there with GP.
Thank you for the response. I have spoken to clinical psychologists and doctors but it has confused me more as some were recommending clin psych and some medicine. With clinical psych if I did get onto course at least it is paid whereas if I did GEM I would have €100k to pay back. I have thought about psychiatry definitely but did not realise work life balance would be similar to GP. I will research this further so many thanks for that information. It would probably suit me much better than GP interest wise as how the mind works is my top interest with problem solving and intellectual stimulation priorities also. If I didn't have a mortgage I think it might be an easier decision. Does anyone know any GPS/psychiatrists/psychologist that love/hate their job? I know it's subjective but most doctors on here really like their jobs would it be right in saying that? Money wise I feel I would be debt free with clin psych and money would be nearly equivalent to GP/psychiatrist is that right? As both as high interest money will have to be deciding factor as I have bills to pay and would like a comfortable family life.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Thank you for the response. I have spoken to clinical psychologists and doctors but it has confused me more as some were recommending clin psych and some medicine. With clinical psych if I did get onto course at least it is paid whereas if I did GEM I would have €100k to pay back. I have thought about psychiatry definitely but did not realise work life balance would be similar to GP. I will research this further so many thanks for that information. It would probably suit me much better than GP interest wise as how the mind works is my top interest with problem solving and intellectual stimulation priorities also. If I didn't have a mortgage I think it might be an easier decision. Does anyone know any GPS/psychiatrists/psychologist that love/hate their job? I know it's subjective but most doctors on here really like their jobs would it be right in saying that? Money wise I feel I would be debt free with clin psych and money would be nearly equivalent to GP/psychiatrist is that right? As both as high interest money will have to be deciding factor as I have bills to pay and would like a comfortable family life.
From what I can understand of where you are currently, would it not be years and years before you could apply for clinical psychology? Do you have a psychology undergraduate degree? I have heard from clinical psychologists that a large proportion of applicants to clinical psychology courses would already have MScs or even PhDs on top of their prerequisite psychology undergrad degrees, before getting onto the D.Clin. So there are a lot of steps along the way where you might be unsuccessful in applications and be set back for a year or more. Again, this is all second-hand information from friends of mine working in or thinking about doing clinical psychology.
With medicine, once you're in, you're in. Psychiatry is definitely one of the better medical specialties for work-life, while still having patient contact (as opposed to radiology, pathology, micro, etc.). While you will probably do call/out of hours more often than GPs, it's usually at a reasonable frequency at training levels (1 night in 14 in the last couple of places I've worked) and when you hit consultant level, your call shifts are generally answering the phone at home and making decisions, less often having to actually go in to the hospital.0 -
A Neurotic wrote: »From what I can understand of where you are currently, would it not be years and years before you could apply for clinical psychology? Do you have a psychology undergraduate degree? I have heard from clinical psychologists that a large proportion of applicants to clinical psychology courses would already have MScs or even PhDs on top of their prerequisite psychology undergrad degrees, before getting onto the D.Clin. So there are a lot of steps along the way where you might be unsuccessful in applications and be set back for a year or more. Again, this is all second-hand information from friends of mine working in or thinking about doing clinical psychology.
With medicine, once you're in, you're in. Psychiatry is definitely one of the better medical specialties for work-life, while still having patient contact (as opposed to radiology, pathology, micro, etc.). While you will probably do call/out of hours more often than GPs, it's usually at a reasonable frequency at training levels (1 night in 14 in the last couple of places I've worked) and when you hit consultant level, your call shifts are generally answering the phone at home and making decisions, less often having to actually go in to the hospital.
Yes I have a 1:1 in psychology masters but Im not working in that area at the moment. I will definitely think further on the psychiatry.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »whereas if I did GEM I would have €100k to pay back.
Just FYI, the €100k loans are not being offered by banks anymore. It's fees loans that they offer. Previously also a 5 year interest free loan was available from AIB for 10k, however this is also not being offered anymore.0 -
Just FYI, the €100k loans are not being offered by banks anymore. It's fees loans that they offer. Previously also a 5 year interest free loan was available from AIB for 10k, however this is also not being offered anymore.
Yes I know this thanks for message. I would have to get loan for fees and loan from parents for remainder or save for an extra few years for that extra €40k minimum. But I would still have to pay back €100k just €40k would be to my parents unless I leave it a good few years.0 -
Hi there,
UCD GEM alumni here. I wanted to chime in to say that things aren't all bad as a doctor in Ireland, and that the loan is a crippling disability that will make you want to run away to Mexico.
I'm currently an SpR, won't say where as I'd rather not be identified.
I work in a busy speciality, with an average of 60 hrs per week or so. Everyone's hours have come down since the strike, but mainly as a result of scheduling weeks of nights, etc. I don't feel that much less tired than when I worked >90, but it is better somehow.
To address a couple of points. Firstly money. It's grand. I have to pay back a minimum of 880 to AIB each month, though I'm generally paying back 1100 a month to chip away at the principal a bit more. If I stayed at 880, I would owe just under 40 grand to AIB at the end of the 10 years. It's entirely manageable, even with renting in Dublin. I'm not saving much, granted, but I still managed to get married, go on the odd holiday, and generally enjoy my life. My wife is not a medic, and earns significantly less than me, just so you don't think I'm living off her! I have fairly basic needs, but I don't feel restricted generally. I have no idea what my non-GEM colleagues spend their money on, but it must be great.
Secondly, overtime. I've had to fight for this twice so far in my career. Both times a solicitors letter from the IMO sorted everything out in under a week. There's the usual bull of "Oh you can't fight with them, you won't get a reference" but as long as you're a good doctor and colleague, your consultant will generally support you. Emphasis on good colleague though.
I love my job. I really do. That's why I can put up with the utter nonsense that comes out of the respective Royal Colleges and hospital administration. Being a doctor is not what I expected, luckily I still love what it turned out to be. I have friends who aren't so lucky, and for them it is a daily grind to clock in and clock out. General medicine is cat. I've seen some really bright people, some really good doctors, drop out and move to the "easier" specialities as a result of bad administration, etc.
I would think long and hard about becoming a doctor through GEM. Or becoming a doctor in general. Sit down with some current medics and ask them how they find it, what they like and what they do day to day. There are many whingers in medicine, those people who will tell you it is all awful. It's not. It's not great at times, and I've cried some evenings after a bad outcome, but I don't dread going into work each morning, and my job is pretty cool to describe at parties.
I've waffled quite a bit there forgive me, but I'm hungover. I'm more than happy to answer any questions regarding either GEM or the first few years as a doctor.0 -
How did you find the UCD course and did you know any students who left Ireland to go practice in other countries?Pierre_Robin wrote: »Hi there,
UCD GEM alumni here. I wanted to chime in to say that things aren't all bad as a doctor in Ireland, and that the loan is a crippling disability that will make you want to run away to Mexico.
I'm currently an SpR, won't say where as I'd rather not be identified.
I work in a busy speciality, with an average of 60 hrs per week or so. Everyone's hours have come down since the strike, but mainly as a result of scheduling weeks of nights, etc. I don't feel that much less tired than when I worked >90, but it is better somehow.
To address a couple of points. Firstly money. It's grand. I have to pay back a minimum of 880 to AIB each month, though I'm generally paying back 1100 a month to chip away at the principal a bit more. If I stayed at 880, I would owe just under 40 grand to AIB at the end of the 10 years. It's entirely manageable, even with renting in Dublin. I'm not saving much, granted, but I still managed to get married, go on the odd holiday, and generally enjoy my life. My wife is not a medic, and earns significantly less than me, just so you don't think I'm living off her! I have fairly basic needs, but I don't feel restricted generally. I have no idea what my non-GEM colleagues spend their money on, but it must be great.
Secondly, overtime. I've had to fight for this twice so far in my career. Both times a solicitors letter from the IMO sorted everything out in under a week. There's the usual bull of "Oh you can't fight with them, you won't get a reference" but as long as you're a good doctor and colleague, your consultant will generally support you. Emphasis on good colleague though.
I love my job. I really do. That's why I can put up with the utter nonsense that comes out of the respective Royal Colleges and hospital administration. Being a doctor is not what I expected, luckily I still love what it turned out to be. I have friends who aren't so lucky, and for them it is a daily grind to clock in and clock out. General medicine is cat. I've seen some really bright people, some really good doctors, drop out and move to the "easier" specialities as a result of bad administration, etc.
I would think long and hard about becoming a doctor through GEM. Or becoming a doctor in general. Sit down with some current medics and ask them how they find it, what they like and what they do day to day. There are many whingers in medicine, those people who will tell you it is all awful. It's not. It's not great at times, and I've cried some evenings after a bad outcome, but I don't dread going into work each morning, and my job is pretty cool to describe at parties.
I've waffled quite a bit there forgive me, but I'm hungover. I'm more than happy to answer any questions regarding either GEM or the first few years as a doctor.0 -
UCD is a great college, I felt I had a good education through it. The semester system is nice as you get through something, and don't have to have to worry about it again. The clinical rotations are solid, though like any university, you only get out of it what you put in. The rotations are fairly central as well, which is good when you have to get in early. The UCD campus itself is a bit faceless though.
Plenty of people leave, roughly 50% of my intern year. UCD isn't unique in that respect. A few of my close friends are now working in the NHS and loving it. I'll probably go abroad on a fellowship in time.
Honestly, any of the colleges are good, you'll do the majority of your learning on the job as an actual doctor.0 -
A very honest summary of what it is really like from an actual GEM graduate. Essential reading for people BEFORE considering doing the GAMSAT. Debt at Graduation of 60,000 plus interest is worrying especially as the interest rate will vary depending on the world interest rates at the time but here you have someone who has actually paid it explaining that it is liveable but not luxury. For the life of me I cannot see how anyone would get a mortgage with those debts and repayments but I stand to be corrected. Perhaps only with loans from family.Pierre_Robin wrote: »Hi there,
UCD GEM alumni here. I wanted to chime in to say that things aren't all bad as a doctor in Ireland, and that the loan is a crippling disability that will make you want to run away to Mexico.
I'm currently an SpR, won't say where as I'd rather not be identified.
I work in a busy speciality, with an average of 60 hrs per week or so. Everyone's hours have come down since the strike, but mainly as a result of scheduling weeks of nights, etc. I don't feel that much less tired than when I worked >90, but it is better somehow.
To address a couple of points. Firstly money. It's grand. I have to pay back a minimum of 880 to AIB each month, though I'm generally paying back 1100 a month to chip away at the principal a bit more. If I stayed at 880, I would owe just under 40 grand to AIB at the end of the 10 years. It's entirely manageable, even with renting in Dublin. I'm not saving much, granted, but I still managed to get married, go on the odd holiday, and generally enjoy my life. My wife is not a medic, and earns significantly less than me, just so you don't think I'm living off her! I have fairly basic needs, but I don't feel restricted generally. I have no idea what my non-GEM colleagues spend their money on, but it must be great.
Secondly, overtime. I've had to fight for this twice so far in my career. Both times a solicitors letter from the IMO sorted everything out in under a week. There's the usual bull of "Oh you can't fight with them, you won't get a reference" but as long as you're a good doctor and colleague, your consultant will generally support you. Emphasis on good colleague though.
I love my job. I really do. That's why I can put up with the utter nonsense that comes out of the respective Royal Colleges and hospital administration. Being a doctor is not what I expected, luckily I still love what it turned out to be. I have friends who aren't so lucky, and for them it is a daily grind to clock in and clock out. General medicine is cat. I've seen some really bright people, some really good doctors, drop out and move to the "easier" specialities as a result of bad administration, etc.
I would think long and hard about becoming a doctor through GEM. Or becoming a doctor in general. Sit down with some current medics and ask them how they find it, what they like and what they do day to day. There are many whingers in medicine, those people who will tell you it is all awful. It's not. It's not great at times, and I've cried some evenings after a bad outcome, but I don't dread going into work each morning, and my job is pretty cool to describe at parties.
I've waffled quite a bit there forgive me, but I'm hungover. I'm more than happy to answer any questions regarding either GEM or the first few years as a doctor.
Certainly the people taking the 100,000 loans that were available at the start of graduate medicine are not coping-
https://www.imt.ie/news/doctors-defaulting-on-graduate-entry-loans-12-04-2016/0 -
Certainly the people taking the 100,000 loans that were available at the start of graduate medicine are not coping
People are. Not to sound like a shill for AIB, but they have been exceptionally helpful when I've engaged with them. Similarly, any of my friends from college who have actually gone in and spoke with them have said the same.
As someone who is actually paying the loan, and not reading the medical times, it is possible. As you said, not luxury.For the life of me I cannot see how anyone would get a mortgage with those debts and repayments but I stand to be corrected.
I haven't got one personally, but it is possible, and I know people who have one.
Apologies if I sound curt, I'm post-call. GEM isn't a one-way ticket to sadness. As a happy (relatively) doctor, I can attest to that.0
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