How do people afford GEM?

I have a mortgage and a fairly good career but would love to be a doctor. I am gearing up to make the move (studying and saving) but I really cannot see how people afford the fees and loss of earnings and accommodation costs? What are the loans like now from banks? The 100k loan would have suited me best (I know it's no longer available) as I will have to keep paying mortgage and am not near any colleges so will need to pay accommodation costs also. Any advice would be much appreciated as funding is the only thing holding me back and I can't understand how so many people can afford GEM - am I missing something?

sneakysnake007

Hi there,

I'd say most get a loan and the rest are wealthy enough to pay out of pocket. It's certainly not cheap.

As for loans, as far as I'm aware, only a tuition loan is available and this money goes straight to the college from the bank.

You could contact the banks, your situation is different as not all Gems will have a mortgage and maybe there will be other options open for you.

nomoreexams

60k loan from AIB and I worked part-time. It's very difficult. If i had known how hard the financing would be, I probably would have rethought it, but now that i'm at the end of the 4 years it has been worth it. Bear in mind the aftermath of qualifying - long stints all around the country and not fantastic pay (when you bear in mind the €850+/month loan repayment and rent)

nomoreexams

nomoreexams wrote: »

60k loan from AIB and I worked part-time. It's very difficult. If i had known how hard the financing would be, I probably would have rethought it, but now that i'm at the end of the 4 years it has been worth it. Bear in mind the aftermath of qualifying - long stints all around the country and not fantastic pay (when you bear in mind the €850+/month loan repayment and rent)

Thanks so much for the replies. Nomoreexams I think your username says it all! Did you have any mortgage or other ties financially nomoreexams or was it very tight even without that? What take home fortnightly pay approx has a doc in first few years? I have looked at pay scales etc but that doesn't take into account overtime which would add greatly to income I assume? Do most doctors enjoy their jobs among your friends and what do you think you might specialise in? I am thinking GP would be the line I would work in due to a slightly better work life balance - is this niiave are their hours more manageable?

nomoreexams

The name is derived from before GEM ironically enough. I still have 1 more exam to go. I have no mortgage, just rent, a car and general expenses. As an intern it will be approx €900 fortnightly, initially you won't pay tax because of the time of year you start. Overtime can make a difference though (depending on the hospital, some won't pay for unscheduled overtime). It's capped more than it used to be because of working time directive. The salary will increase annually but not significantly at first. I wouldn't say most "enjoy" their job, I'd say it's not the worst out there. You have to get used to being bullied by co-workers and being a general dogs body, but there are up sides and it seems to be what you make of it. You'll probably change your mind a 100 times about what you want to specialise in, I wouldn't even be thinking of that until you get some clinical exposure. GP currently has one of the shortest training times, however there can be a delay getting on to the scheme depending on popularity. Days are long, no real breaks, and during the course if you do decide to work part time, you will suffer exhaustion that you never thought possible. I know I sound negative, but these are things I wish someone had told me.

nomoreexams

nomoreexams wrote: »

The name is derived from before GEM ironically enough. I still have 1 more exam to go. I have no mortgage, just rent, a car and general expenses. As an intern it will be approx €900 fortnightly, initially you won't pay tax because of the time of year you start. Overtime can make a difference though (depending on the hospital, some won't pay for unscheduled overtime). It's capped more than it used to be because of working time directive. The salary will increase annually but not significantly at first. I wouldn't say most "enjoy" their job, I'd say it's not the worst out there. You have to get used to being bullied by co-workers and being a general dogs body, but there are up sides and it seems to be what you make of it. You'll probably change your mind a 100 times about what you want to specialise in, I wouldn't even be thinking of that until you get some clinical exposure. GP currently has one of the shortest training times, however there can be a delay getting on to the scheme depending on popularity. Days are long, no real breaks, and during the course if you do decide to work part time, you will suffer exhaustion that you never thought possible. I know I sound negative, but these are things I wish someone had told me.

I really appreciate such an honest post thank you. Am I niiave in thinking life of a GP is easier? Would income be fairly good as GP? I know it's very early to be talking about specialising but I really want some work life balance sorted by the time I am thinking about having kids.

nomoreexams

Deleted User wrote: »

I really appreciate such an honest post thank you. Am I niiave in thinking life of a GP is easier? Would income be fairly good as GP? I know it's very early to be talking about specialising but I really want some work life balance sorted by the time I am thinking about having kids.

Work/life balance would almost certainly be better as a GP, but then by the time you'd be finished, so much may have changed so it would all be speculation at this stage. As for the financial side, from what I have heard GP's don't have the same earning capacity as a hospital consultant or a surgeon. Costs of setting up your own business are high and salaries within someone else's practice are not very high. This too can vary - if you specialise within a certain field you can increase earning capacity by training in surgery and performing minor procedures in a practice. If you're very concerned about work/life balance I would think long and hard about medicine. It is not conducive to a good social/home life for quite some time. It's a lifestyle not just a job. I would look into other medical professions, such as pharmacy, OT, physio. Although they too come with their own set of issues.

nomoreexams

nomoreexams wrote: »

Work/life balance would almost certainly be better as a GP, but then by the time you'd be finished, so much may have changed so it would all be speculation at this stage. As for the financial side, from what I have heard GP's don't have the same earning capacity as a hospital consultant or a surgeon. Costs of setting up your own business are high and salaries within someone else's practice are not very high. This too can vary - if you specialise within a certain field you can increase earning capacity by training in surgery and performing minor procedures in a practice. If you're very concerned about work/life balance I would think long and hard about medicine. It is not conducive to a good social/home life for quite some time. It's a lifestyle not just a job. I would look into other medical professions, such as pharmacy, OT, physio. Although they too come with their own set of issues.

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to all my questions. I am thinking very seriously and trying not to make rash decisions. I am between medicine and clinical psychology but both are very long routes. Talking to someone on the ground really helps.

nomoreexams

Deleted User wrote: »

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to all my questions. I am thinking very seriously and trying not to make rash decisions. I am between medicine and clinical psychology but both are very long routes. Talking to someone on the ground really helps.

No worries, good luck with the decision. It's not easy, there are a lot of things to consider. Finances are definitely a big part of that, but lifestyle is probably an even bigger factor. Living in the sticks for months on end is a big concern of mine. If I have children, what do I do- leave them with my partner in Dublin while I head off to Letterkenny/Portlaois/Waterford, bring them with me and stick them in daycare- Dad getting to see them at the weekend??? It's not a very family friendly career, particularly when going in as a GEM where you're that little bit older so family is an issue in your early career as opposed to 10/12 years down the line when you're a consultant.

Talk to as many docs as you can. Get different opinions and be very sceptical, don't let current medical students sway you either (me included), there's a lot of rose tinted glasses and a lot of ignorance.

nomoreexams

nomoreexams wrote: »

No worries, good luck with the decision. It's not easy, there are a lot of things to consider. Finances are definitely a big part of that, but lifestyle is probably an even bigger factor. Living in the sticks for months on end is a big concern of mine. If I have children, what do I do- leave them with my partner in Dublin while I head off to Letterkenny/Portlaois/Waterford, bring them with me and stick them in daycare- Dad getting to see them at the weekend??? It's not a very family friendly career, particularly when going in as a GEM where you're that little bit older so family is an issue in your early career as opposed to 10/12 years down the line when you're a consultant.

Talk to as many docs as you can. Get different opinions and be very sceptical, don't let current medical students sway you either (me included), there's a lot of rose tinted glasses and a lot of ignorance.

Thank you I will do just that. Yes my age is definitely a factor due to the stage of training I will be at in my 30s and I have to remember that when making decisions. Thanks again - good karma for you to show such kindness for a stranger ☺

Nonoperational

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a mortgage and a fairly good career but would love to be a doctor. I am gearing up to make the move (studying and saving) but I really cannot see how people afford the fees and loss of earnings and accommodation costs? What are the loans like now from banks? The 100k loan would have suited me best (I know it's no longer available) as I will have to keep paying mortgage and am not near any colleges so will need to pay accommodation costs also. Any advice would be much appreciated as funding is the only thing holding me back and I can't understand how so many people can afford GEM - am I missing something?

I was lucky enough not to have to take out a large loan, if you do I would seriously consider it. If you want to be a GP the quickest possible way is to do intern year where you will earn €40-45k before tax with the re-introduction of the living out allowance etc from this July. Thats not a large wage if you are essentially paying back a mortgage sized loan.

After intern year it is possible, but reasonably difficult, to go straight into the GP training scheme. There is no guarantee you will get this in the area you want it and you stay in this area for 2 years rotating through medicine, obs/gynae, paeds and psych. During this you are paid as an SHO which will probably be close to €45-50k per year depending on overtime etc. You then do 2 years as a GP registrar with a basic salary of €53k and an allowance of around €12k to compensate for the out of hours cover they provide.

My point is that the money is fine if you have no dependents and no loans. If you start out with a large loan, family, debts etc then it can be very tight and you have to ask yourself if its worth it.

Nonoperational

Nonoperational wrote: »

I was lucky enough not to have to take out a large loan, if you do I would seriously consider it. If you want to be a GP the quickest possible way is to do intern year where you will earn €40-45k before tax with the re-introduction of the living out allowance etc from this July. Thats not a large wage if you are essentially paying back a mortgage sized loan.

After intern year it is possible, but reasonably difficult, to go straight into the GP training scheme. There is no guarantee you will get this in the area you want it and you stay in this area for 2 years rotating through medicine, obs/gynae, paeds and psych. During this you are paid as an SHO which will probably be close to €45-50k per year depending on overtime etc. You then do 2 years as a GP registrar with a basic salary of €53k and an allowance of around €12k to compensate for the out of hours cover they provide.

My point is that the money is fine if you have no dependents and no loans. If you start out with a large loan, family, debts etc then it can be very tight and you have to ask yourself if its worth it.

Ok that is very informative many thanks for all the figures - they are all gross figures I assume rather than take home pay? Once qualified fully as GP in a town working in a practise with say 4 others would a gross figure of €80k be realistic as gross pay or would it be considerably more or less? Can I ask what area you specialised in and if you enjoy the job?

Flange/Flanders

Nonoperational wrote: »

I was lucky enough not to have to take out a large loan, if you do I would seriously consider it. If you want to be a GP the quickest possible way is to do intern year where you will earn €40-45k before tax with the re-introduction of the living out allowance etc from this July. Thats not a large wage if you are essentially paying back a mortgage sized loan.

After intern year it is possible, but reasonably difficult, to go straight into the GP training scheme. There is no guarantee you will get this in the area you want it and you stay in this area for 2 years rotating through medicine, obs/gynae, paeds and psych. During this you are paid as an SHO which will probably be close to €45-50k per year depending on overtime etc. You then do 2 years as a GP registrar with a basic salary of €53k and an allowance of around €12k to compensate for the out of hours cover they provide.

My point is that the money is fine if you have no dependents and no loans. If you start out with a large loan, family, debts etc then it can be very tight and you have to ask yourself if its worth it.

Intern salary is 33k basic with the new allowance? Tho overtime will bump that up.

Im final year gem, it is a tough slog but strangely enjoyable. As regards part time work, it is possible but don't expect to be getting a's.......tho results aren't the be all and end all. It is hard to finance, if you can live at home it's a big advantage. I relied on credit union loans, an aib interest free loan (That's unfortunately mo longer offered), part time work and help from the parents.

Recap

If you aren't living at home during the course, you could put up the place for rent and use that income to pay the mortgage off.

Nonoperational

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok that is very informative many thanks for all the figures - they are all gross figures I assume rather than take home pay? Once qualified fully as GP in a town working in a practise with say 4 others would a gross figure of €80k be realistic as gross pay or would it be considerably more or less? Can I ask what area you specialised in and if you enjoy the job?

Yes they are gross including an estimation of overtime.

Not too familiar with GP but I would expect a GP doing a full week of sessions would expect around 100k. I'm not a GP though and I'd say it differs a lot and there may be partnership options etc.

I'm specialising in cardiology. I do enjoy it, it has it's ups and downs particularly as you are more junior. There is a staggering lack of respect for junior doctors in this country in my opinion.

Flange/Flanders wrote: »

Intern salary is 33k basic with the new allowance? Tho overtime will bump that up.

Im final year gem, it is a tough slog but strangely enjoyable. As regards part time work, it is possible but don't expect to be getting a's.......tho results aren't the be all and end all. It is hard to finance, if you can live at home it's a big advantage. I relied on credit union loans, an aib interest free loan (That's unfortunately mo longer offered), part time work and help from the parents.

Yes 33k basic with allowance and prob 10k or so OT.

Nonoperational

Nonoperational wrote: »

Yes they are gross including an estimation of overtime.

Not too familiar with GP but I would expect a GP doing a full week of sessions would expect around 100k. I'm not a GP though and I'd say it differs a lot and there may be partnership options etc.

I'm specialising in cardiology. I do enjoy it, it has it's ups and downs particularly as you are more junior. There is a staggering lack of respect for junior doctors in this country in my opinion.



Yes 33k basic with allowance and prob 10k or so OT.

Thanks nonoperational. If I would eventually have an income of even near 100k I would be happy as I am a teacher and qualified after 2012 so am on lowest rung of income. Financially it wouldn't be a huge amount greater though than clinical psychology which is what I am trying to decide between and I would get paid for clinical psychology doctorate (if I ever got accepted to it) rather than being without steady income for 4 years. I am finding it very difficult to decide between the two careers.

TGJD

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Thanks nonoperational. If I would eventually have an income of even near 100k I would be happy as I am a teacher and qualified after 2012 so am on lowest rung of income. Financially it wouldn't be a huge amount greater though than clinical psychology which is what I am trying to decide between and I would get paid for clinical psychology doctorate (if I ever got accepted to it) rather than being without steady income for 4 years. I am finding it very difficult to decide between the two careers.

To be honest. Im very biased for obvious reasons but I'd go with gem. It's not financially greater than clinical psych but that's if you get a job after. Medicine is essentially a guaranteed job.

TGJD

TGJD wrote: »

To be honest. Im very biased for obvious reasons but I'd go with gem. It's not financially greater than clinical psych but that's if you get a job after. Medicine is essentially a guaranteed job.

Yes I know what you mean it is pretty much guaranteed. I'm very tempted but would need a huge loan and would have a mountain of debt after but if it's what I choose I will go for it 110%. I would also need to work part time. I assume gradmed is 5 days of college 9-5 at least is it so I couldn't work in evenings if I'm to do any study? I assume it would be weekend and summer work only.

TGJD

TGJD wrote: »

To be honest. Im very biased for obvious reasons but I'd go with gem. It's not financially greater than clinical psych but that's if you get a job after. Medicine is essentially a guaranteed job.

Just reading back over this. Would income of a doctor not be higher than that of a clinical pscyhologist considering all the extra hours worked and shift work and overtime?

PhoneMain

It probably would but you have to consider the fact that you could be working 70/80 hours a week. Interns on surgery might start before 6 and not get home until 8/9 that night.

OP, do not do medicine for the money, money sounds like it's a big aspect of doing medicine. It is definitely not worth it just for that. Go into finance or something like that, you'll probably make more money and it will definitely be a lot easier earned!

PhoneMain

PhoneMain wrote: »

It probably would but you have to consider the fact that you could be working 70/80 hours a week. Interns on surgery might start before 6 and not get home until 8/9 that night.

OP, do not do medicine for the money, money sounds like it's a big aspect of doing medicine. It is definitely not worth it just for that. Go into finance or something like that, you'll probably make more money and it will definitely be a lot easier earned!

Thanks PhoneMain. Money is a big factor as is interest. I seriously considered actuary for many years but decided against it as I felt medicine/psychology would be much more in line with my interests whereas I was just going for actuary for the money. I have a decent job so the two things pushing me to move are money and interest in both careers. Based on not deciding to become an actuary though I know money is not the deciding factor but a very close second! in addition I am from a country area which I don't want to move too far from. Finance would mean a huge move whereas GP or psychology would mean training away and eventually being able to move home. This is very important to me also.

PhoneMain

But the thing you have to consider is you'll have 4 years away from home unless you're not from Dublin, Cork or Limerick, the intern year where there's no guarantee where you'll be sent, then training schemes after that where you might have to live away from home for 6 months at a time.

PhoneMain

PhoneMain wrote: »

But the thing you have to consider is you'll have 4 years away from home unless you're not from Dublin, Cork or Limerick, the intern year where there's no guarantee where you'll be sent, then training schemes after that where you might have to live away from home for 6 months at a time.

Yes but I will ultimately be based at home whereas with actuary i would have to work in dublin permanently. I'd be happy as long as the outcome was to be home at the end of training. Of course if I did clinical psychology I could wait much closer to home.

newwan

Don't do med for the money. But also definitely don't not do med for lack of money!

You'll pay back the loan over 10 years or even longer. I wouldn't worry much about it. Take the lowest level or repayment and then pay it off when you hit high spr level salary.

Or even better again do the us or Canadian exams and residency and pay your loan back in a few years then...

Money is irrelevant in the argument. Let's face it there aren't many docs 10 years in the game on the breadline.

Killergreene

You obviously don't know too many gems. Me and my colleagues are on Sho slave salary living off less than the dole each month when all said and done. Few bits in penny's to keep me going. That's with working 24 hour shift every fourth night and not getting paid past five pm.

Killergreene

Killergreene wrote: »

You obviously don't know too many gems. Me and my colleagues are on Sho slave salary living off less than the dole each month when all said and done. Few bits in penny's to keep me going. That's with working 24 hour shift every fourth night and not getting paid past five pm.

This is not good to hear but thank you for your honesty. I will have big debts to pay back if I go ahead with this so I need to know the reality of the situation. Can you tell me what stage you are at of training/career? Do you see a light at the end of the tunnel once you have more years put in or have the cuts made high income a thing of the past? Thank you.

newwan

newwan wrote: »

Don't do med for the money. But also definitely don't not do med for lack of money!

You'll pay back the loan over 10 years or even longer. I wouldn't worry much about it. Take the lowest level or repayment and then pay it off when you hit high spr level salary.

Or even better again do the us or Canadian exams and residency and pay your loan back in a few years then...

Money is irrelevant in the argument. Let's face it there aren't many docs 10 years in the game on the breadline.

Thank you for the reply it is really appreciated.Can I ask what stage of training/specialisation you are at?

PhoneMain

Deleted User wrote: »

This is not good to hear but thank you for your honesty. I will have big debts to pay back if I go ahead with this so I need to know the reality of the situation. Can you tell me what stage you are at of training/career? Do you see a light at the end of the tunnel once you have more years put in or have the cuts made high income a thing of the past? Thank you.

I'd be very wary of this killergreene, I'd not convinced he's not a troll.

newwan

I'm SPR now. Time flies. It's a decent wage now and youd motor thru paying back a med loan if you wanted. I was an engineer in 09. Also I can count on the fingers of 1 hand the number of hours I haven't been paid for over the last 4 yrs. Maybe I've been lucky

I'm also jacking it in to go to North America this summer for residency there. If you're not too tied to Ireland I'd recommend that to you really for a few yrs. Come back a consultant and walk into a job here like when you're classmates are still dicking around on Irish training schemes

Killergreene

Would u be able to provide any info on the matching process.

how has it gone down with your college that you are quitting the scheme?

Why quit now when you are already on track to be a consultant ?

Killergreene

PhoneMain wrote: »

I'd be very wary of this killergreene, I'd not convinced he's not a troll.

Easy to accuse someone of trolling if the argument doesn't fit your narrative.

There are doctors in this country living on the breadline, most of them studied as gems. You cannot afford a wife, a kid a house and a car on 40k a year while paying back 1500 a month. The numbers don't add up. Offer counter figures if you can really prove your point.

Loads of hospitals don't pay overtime. If yours does, congrats.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/news/201281/Trainee-doctors-vote-for-strike-at.html

PhoneMain

Killergreene wrote: »

Easy to accuse someone of trolling if the argument doesn't fit your narrative.

There are doctors in this country living on the breadline, most of them studied as gems. You cannot afford a wife, a kid a house and a car on 40k a year while paying back 1500 a month. The numbers don't add up. Offer counter figures if you can really prove your point.

Loads of hospitals don't pay overtime. If yours does, congrats.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/news/201281/Trainee-doctors-vote-for-strike-at.html

You slate UL any chance you get, calling it a "sham" course. Yet, you do plenty of posting in "Official bitch about daily life in UL". So, did you go there and you're not happy with how you performed or if you've finished yet. You've been asked a few times regarding the stage you're at, you never tell us. I've met a UL intern and a UL SHO who's on the Paeds scheme, both fine knowledgeable doctors.

You're narative is constant negativity, that's why I call you a troll. I've asked a lot of interns about overtime pay, in most institutions there seems to be no problem.

newwan

I wouldn't have a bad word to say about ul or being paid or intern or a lot of the daily life as a junior doc in Ireland so there's some balance. It's just so much easier and nicer in other jurisdictions.

I'm 3 yrs away from ccst here and prob another 3 years of fellowships before I'll even get a locum consultancy(I might well struggle to even get any of the good fellowships around the world). So it's a no brainier for me to go. I'll be done forever in 3 yrs.

Matching was a long road and very difficult and expensive. Probably 20k and 2.5 yrs work...

The college here are overall ok with it

Killergreene

20k is some whack of change. Congrats.

You're better off. All you get here is hr trying to f*ck you and colleagues trying to one up you or stab you in the back when it comes to research etc. Specialty dependent of course.

PhoneMain

Posting negative comments again with nothing to back it up.

Killergreene

Again you offer very little information to support your own argument. HVe you ever worked a 24 or 36 hour shift? And then not been paid for it?

This happens regularly.

UL course has lot of deficiencies in pre clinical years and clinical years. Very little microbiology, biochemistry teaching.anatomy self learned from quiz books. Poor usmle scores and poor Canadian matches. Us students can't get government loans to study in UL because usmle scores have been too poor. I went to Ucc. Excellent didactic course.

newwan

Killergreene wrote: »

Poor usmle scores and poor Canadian matches. Us students can't get government loans to study in UL because usmle scores have been too poor.

You have proof for this yourself i assume?

PhoneMain

newwan wrote: »

You have proof for this yourself i assume?

Because as a UL grad who scored off the charts in my North American exams and matched to one of the most competitive schemes i think you are making this entirely up.
(and every single person in my class who wanted to match to North america matched from anaesthetics to radiology to vasc surg and lots doing ICU now)

He's a troll, claims to have gone to UCC but every second thing he posts is about UL. Strange that.

Kurtosis

Mod note

Can we please cut the bickering and get back on topic? If you have a problem with someone else's posts, please use the report post function rather than resorting to insults.

Killergreene, you've been warned about your unhelpful posting about UL previously, keep things constructive or further mod actions will follow.

Any queries, please PM me.

A Neurotic

OP, have you spoken to any clinical psychologists? From what I understand, it's extremely competitive to get onto the D.Clin. I work in psychiatry at the moment, and there are quite a few psychology graduates in the hospital doing long-term, unpaid placements just to accrue some experience to boost their applications to the doctorate.

I would say medicine would be a much safer bet, in terms of progression and income. Incidentally, if you're interested in clinical psychology, wouldn't studying medicine with the option of specialising in psychiatry be a solid option? It's one of the easier schemes to get a place in, and the work-life balance is probably up there with GP.

A Neurotic

A Neurotic wrote: »

OP, have you spoken to any clinical psychologists? From what I understand, it's extremely competitive to get onto the D.Clin. I work in psychiatry at the moment, and there are quite a few psychology graduates in the hospital doing long-term, unpaid placements just to accrue some experience to boost their applications to the doctorate.

I would say medicine would be a much safer bet, in terms of progression and income. Incidentally, if you're interested in clinical psychology, wouldn't studying medicine with the option of specialising in psychiatry be a solid option? It's one of the easier schemes to get a place in, and the work-life balance is probably up there with GP.

Thank you for the response. I have spoken to clinical psychologists and doctors but it has confused me more as some were recommending clin psych and some medicine. With clinical psych if I did get onto course at least it is paid whereas if I did GEM I would have €100k to pay back. I have thought about psychiatry definitely but did not realise work life balance would be similar to GP. I will research this further so many thanks for that information. It would probably suit me much better than GP interest wise as how the mind works is my top interest with problem solving and intellectual stimulation priorities also. If I didn't have a mortgage I think it might be an easier decision. Does anyone know any GPS/psychiatrists/psychologist that love/hate their job? I know it's subjective but most doctors on here really like their jobs would it be right in saying that? Money wise I feel I would be debt free with clin psych and money would be nearly equivalent to GP/psychiatrist is that right? As both as high interest money will have to be deciding factor as I have bills to pay and would like a comfortable family life.

A Neurotic

Deleted User wrote: »

Thank you for the response. I have spoken to clinical psychologists and doctors but it has confused me more as some were recommending clin psych and some medicine. With clinical psych if I did get onto course at least it is paid whereas if I did GEM I would have €100k to pay back. I have thought about psychiatry definitely but did not realise work life balance would be similar to GP. I will research this further so many thanks for that information. It would probably suit me much better than GP interest wise as how the mind works is my top interest with problem solving and intellectual stimulation priorities also. If I didn't have a mortgage I think it might be an easier decision. Does anyone know any GPS/psychiatrists/psychologist that love/hate their job? I know it's subjective but most doctors on here really like their jobs would it be right in saying that? Money wise I feel I would be debt free with clin psych and money would be nearly equivalent to GP/psychiatrist is that right? As both as high interest money will have to be deciding factor as I have bills to pay and would like a comfortable family life.

From what I can understand of where you are currently, would it not be years and years before you could apply for clinical psychology? Do you have a psychology undergraduate degree? I have heard from clinical psychologists that a large proportion of applicants to clinical psychology courses would already have MScs or even PhDs on top of their prerequisite psychology undergrad degrees, before getting onto the D.Clin. So there are a lot of steps along the way where you might be unsuccessful in applications and be set back for a year or more. Again, this is all second-hand information from friends of mine working in or thinking about doing clinical psychology.


With medicine, once you're in, you're in. Psychiatry is definitely one of the better medical specialties for work-life, while still having patient contact (as opposed to radiology, pathology, micro, etc.). While you will probably do call/out of hours more often than GPs, it's usually at a reasonable frequency at training levels (1 night in 14 in the last couple of places I've worked) and when you hit consultant level, your call shifts are generally answering the phone at home and making decisions, less often having to actually go in to the hospital.

A Neurotic

A Neurotic wrote: »

From what I can understand of where you are currently, would it not be years and years before you could apply for clinical psychology? Do you have a psychology undergraduate degree? I have heard from clinical psychologists that a large proportion of applicants to clinical psychology courses would already have MScs or even PhDs on top of their prerequisite psychology undergrad degrees, before getting onto the D.Clin. So there are a lot of steps along the way where you might be unsuccessful in applications and be set back for a year or more. Again, this is all second-hand information from friends of mine working in or thinking about doing clinical psychology.


With medicine, once you're in, you're in. Psychiatry is definitely one of the better medical specialties for work-life, while still having patient contact (as opposed to radiology, pathology, micro, etc.). While you will probably do call/out of hours more often than GPs, it's usually at a reasonable frequency at training levels (1 night in 14 in the last couple of places I've worked) and when you hit consultant level, your call shifts are generally answering the phone at home and making decisions, less often having to actually go in to the hospital.

Yes I have a 1:1 in psychology masters but Im not working in that area at the moment. I will definitely think further on the psychiatry.

PhoneMain

Deleted User wrote: »

whereas if I did GEM I would have €100k to pay back.

Just FYI, the €100k loans are not being offered by banks anymore. It's fees loans that they offer. Previously also a 5 year interest free loan was available from AIB for 10k, however this is also not being offered anymore.

PhoneMain

PhoneMain wrote: »

Just FYI, the €100k loans are not being offered by banks anymore. It's fees loans that they offer. Previously also a 5 year interest free loan was available from AIB for 10k, however this is also not being offered anymore.

Yes I know this thanks for message. I would have to get loan for fees and loan from parents for remainder or save for an extra few years for that extra €40k minimum. But I would still have to pay back €100k just €40k would be to my parents unless I leave it a good few years.

Pierre_Robin

Hi there,

UCD GEM alumni here. I wanted to chime in to say that things aren't all bad as a doctor in Ireland, and that the loan is a crippling disability that will make you want to run away to Mexico.

I'm currently an SpR, won't say where as I'd rather not be identified.

I work in a busy speciality, with an average of 60 hrs per week or so. Everyone's hours have come down since the strike, but mainly as a result of scheduling weeks of nights, etc. I don't feel that much less tired than when I worked >90, but it is better somehow.

To address a couple of points. Firstly money. It's grand. I have to pay back a minimum of 880 to AIB each month, though I'm generally paying back 1100 a month to chip away at the principal a bit more. If I stayed at 880, I would owe just under 40 grand to AIB at the end of the 10 years. It's entirely manageable, even with renting in Dublin. I'm not saving much, granted, but I still managed to get married, go on the odd holiday, and generally enjoy my life. My wife is not a medic, and earns significantly less than me, just so you don't think I'm living off her! I have fairly basic needs, but I don't feel restricted generally. I have no idea what my non-GEM colleagues spend their money on, but it must be great.

Secondly, overtime. I've had to fight for this twice so far in my career. Both times a solicitors letter from the IMO sorted everything out in under a week. There's the usual bull of "Oh you can't fight with them, you won't get a reference" but as long as you're a good doctor and colleague, your consultant will generally support you. Emphasis on good colleague though.

I love my job. I really do. That's why I can put up with the utter nonsense that comes out of the respective Royal Colleges and hospital administration. Being a doctor is not what I expected, luckily I still love what it turned out to be. I have friends who aren't so lucky, and for them it is a daily grind to clock in and clock out. General medicine is cat. I've seen some really bright people, some really good doctors, drop out and move to the "easier" specialities as a result of bad administration, etc.

I would think long and hard about becoming a doctor through GEM. Or becoming a doctor in general. Sit down with some current medics and ask them how they find it, what they like and what they do day to day. There are many whingers in medicine, those people who will tell you it is all awful. It's not. It's not great at times, and I've cried some evenings after a bad outcome, but I don't dread going into work each morning, and my job is pretty cool to describe at parties.

I've waffled quite a bit there forgive me, but I'm hungover. I'm more than happy to answer any questions regarding either GEM or the first few years as a doctor.

Recap

Pierre_Robin wrote: »

Hi there,

UCD GEM alumni here. I wanted to chime in to say that things aren't all bad as a doctor in Ireland, and that the loan is a crippling disability that will make you want to run away to Mexico.

I'm currently an SpR, won't say where as I'd rather not be identified.

I work in a busy speciality, with an average of 60 hrs per week or so. Everyone's hours have come down since the strike, but mainly as a result of scheduling weeks of nights, etc. I don't feel that much less tired than when I worked >90, but it is better somehow.

To address a couple of points. Firstly money. It's grand. I have to pay back a minimum of 880 to AIB each month, though I'm generally paying back 1100 a month to chip away at the principal a bit more. If I stayed at 880, I would owe just under 40 grand to AIB at the end of the 10 years. It's entirely manageable, even with renting in Dublin. I'm not saving much, granted, but I still managed to get married, go on the odd holiday, and generally enjoy my life. My wife is not a medic, and earns significantly less than me, just so you don't think I'm living off her! I have fairly basic needs, but I don't feel restricted generally. I have no idea what my non-GEM colleagues spend their money on, but it must be great.

Secondly, overtime. I've had to fight for this twice so far in my career. Both times a solicitors letter from the IMO sorted everything out in under a week. There's the usual bull of "Oh you can't fight with them, you won't get a reference" but as long as you're a good doctor and colleague, your consultant will generally support you. Emphasis on good colleague though.

I love my job. I really do. That's why I can put up with the utter nonsense that comes out of the respective Royal Colleges and hospital administration. Being a doctor is not what I expected, luckily I still love what it turned out to be. I have friends who aren't so lucky, and for them it is a daily grind to clock in and clock out. General medicine is cat. I've seen some really bright people, some really good doctors, drop out and move to the "easier" specialities as a result of bad administration, etc.

I would think long and hard about becoming a doctor through GEM. Or becoming a doctor in general. Sit down with some current medics and ask them how they find it, what they like and what they do day to day. There are many whingers in medicine, those people who will tell you it is all awful. It's not. It's not great at times, and I've cried some evenings after a bad outcome, but I don't dread going into work each morning, and my job is pretty cool to describe at parties.

I've waffled quite a bit there forgive me, but I'm hungover. I'm more than happy to answer any questions regarding either GEM or the first few years as a doctor.

How did you find the UCD course and did you know any students who left Ireland to go practice in other countries?

Pierre_Robin

UCD is a great college, I felt I had a good education through it. The semester system is nice as you get through something, and don't have to have to worry about it again. The clinical rotations are solid, though like any university, you only get out of it what you put in. The rotations are fairly central as well, which is good when you have to get in early. The UCD campus itself is a bit faceless though.

Plenty of people leave, roughly 50% of my intern year. UCD isn't unique in that respect. A few of my close friends are now working in the NHS and loving it. I'll probably go abroad on a fellowship in time.

Honestly, any of the colleges are good, you'll do the majority of your learning on the job as an actual doctor.

drrkpd

Pierre_Robin wrote: »

Hi there,

UCD GEM alumni here. I wanted to chime in to say that things aren't all bad as a doctor in Ireland, and that the loan is a crippling disability that will make you want to run away to Mexico.

I'm currently an SpR, won't say where as I'd rather not be identified.

I work in a busy speciality, with an average of 60 hrs per week or so. Everyone's hours have come down since the strike, but mainly as a result of scheduling weeks of nights, etc. I don't feel that much less tired than when I worked >90, but it is better somehow.

To address a couple of points. Firstly money. It's grand. I have to pay back a minimum of 880 to AIB each month, though I'm generally paying back 1100 a month to chip away at the principal a bit more. If I stayed at 880, I would owe just under 40 grand to AIB at the end of the 10 years. It's entirely manageable, even with renting in Dublin. I'm not saving much, granted, but I still managed to get married, go on the odd holiday, and generally enjoy my life. My wife is not a medic, and earns significantly less than me, just so you don't think I'm living off her! I have fairly basic needs, but I don't feel restricted generally. I have no idea what my non-GEM colleagues spend their money on, but it must be great.

Secondly, overtime. I've had to fight for this twice so far in my career. Both times a solicitors letter from the IMO sorted everything out in under a week. There's the usual bull of "Oh you can't fight with them, you won't get a reference" but as long as you're a good doctor and colleague, your consultant will generally support you. Emphasis on good colleague though.

I love my job. I really do. That's why I can put up with the utter nonsense that comes out of the respective Royal Colleges and hospital administration. Being a doctor is not what I expected, luckily I still love what it turned out to be. I have friends who aren't so lucky, and for them it is a daily grind to clock in and clock out. General medicine is cat. I've seen some really bright people, some really good doctors, drop out and move to the "easier" specialities as a result of bad administration, etc.

I would think long and hard about becoming a doctor through GEM. Or becoming a doctor in general. Sit down with some current medics and ask them how they find it, what they like and what they do day to day. There are many whingers in medicine, those people who will tell you it is all awful. It's not. It's not great at times, and I've cried some evenings after a bad outcome, but I don't dread going into work each morning, and my job is pretty cool to describe at parties.

I've waffled quite a bit there forgive me, but I'm hungover. I'm more than happy to answer any questions regarding either GEM or the first few years as a doctor.

A very honest summary of what it is really like from an actual GEM graduate. Essential reading for people BEFORE considering doing the GAMSAT. Debt at Graduation of 60,000 plus interest is worrying especially as the interest rate will vary depending on the world interest rates at the time but here you have someone who has actually paid it explaining that it is liveable but not luxury. For the life of me I cannot see how anyone would get a mortgage with those debts and repayments but I stand to be corrected. Perhaps only with loans from family.
Certainly the people taking the 100,000 loans that were available at the start of graduate medicine are not coping-
https://www.imt.ie/news/doctors-defaulting-on-graduate-entry-loans-12-04-2016/

Pierre_Robin

drrkpd wrote: »

Certainly the people taking the 100,000 loans that were available at the start of graduate medicine are not coping

People are. Not to sound like a shill for AIB, but they have been exceptionally helpful when I've engaged with them. Similarly, any of my friends from college who have actually gone in and spoke with them have said the same.

As someone who is actually paying the loan, and not reading the medical times, it is possible. As you said, not luxury.

drrkpd wrote: »

For the life of me I cannot see how anyone would get a mortgage with those debts and repayments but I stand to be corrected.

I haven't got one personally, but it is possible, and I know people who have one.

Apologies if I sound curt, I'm post-call. GEM isn't a one-way ticket to sadness. As a happy (relatively) doctor, I can attest to that.