Journalism and cycling

Weepsie · 05-10-2016 11:12am

Newstalk and the indo share the same owner and much of the same journalistic output (there are some exceptions of course)

It would stand to reason they'd get Ian O'Doherty rather than someone reliably independent

ThisRegard · 05-10-2016 11:14am

Ironically the most reasoned voice you hear on Newstalk when it comes to cycling is Conor Faughnan.

Chuchote · 05-10-2016 11:14am

gaffmaster wrote: »

I think an awful lot of bad or lazy journalism stems from the journalist having to write about something they know little about. So they regurgitate the loudest or most recent piece of information they've heard on the topic in their own words. In the case highlighted very well by the OP, it's the fact that some people on bicycles break red lights sometimes.

Trends develop. You see this type of thing all the time when football pundits are asked about certain topics. One of them will form an opinion, then the rest will copy it until it's a fact. A lot of the time it's nonsense.

This is so true! I remember being thanked effusively years ago by John McGahern for a book review I'd written - it was the first review out, and he said all the later reviewers would read that and follow on. As they did!

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Nothin personal against Ian O'Doherty.

Opinion journalism is what he does.

The issue here is Newstalk....

......we are running an opinion section on cyclists. Lets invite this person in who will really put the boot into cyclists......

The station has the agenda. It will claim to be objective and neutral of course.

I think it's actually policy for Newstalk to use Indo journalists for quotes and vice versa - vaguely remember that journalists were getting training with the purpose that they'd be used on radio shows, so that there'd be feedback between listenership and readership.

Pinch Flat · 05-10-2016 11:16am

ThisRegard wrote: »

Ironically the most reasoned voice you hear on Newstalk when it comes to cycling is Conor Faughnan.

I've worked with the guy, he's actually a keen cyclist and commutes daily by bike. He reckons you'd be crazy to drive in Dublin :pac:

ThisRegard · 05-10-2016 11:17am

Yip, I've heard him more than once advocate the bike for getting around Dublin. Matt Cooper is another reasonable voice when it comes to cycling that you'd hear on the radio.

Tombo2001 · 05-10-2016 11:31am

Chuchote wrote: »

This is so true! I remember being thanked effusively years ago by John McGahern for a book review I'd written - it was the first review out, and he said all the later reviewers would read that and follow on. As they did!

I think it's actually policy for Newstalk to use Indo journalists for quotes and vice versa - vaguely remember that journalists were getting training with the purpose that they'd be used on radio shows, so that there'd be feedback between listenership and readership.

Yep, and I've no doubt the Indo has a journalist who covers Tour De France and so on, and probably knows a lot more about cycling in Dublin than Ian O'Doherty.

Did they get that guy?

Picking an Indo journalist doesn't per se show an agenda.

Picking Ian O'Doherty does show an agenda.

Chuchote · 05-10-2016 11:34am

Tis true, but the agenda is more likely to be "that fella could talk the hind leg off an ass; the sports journo is a nice shy guy who writes well but isn't so fluent talking". Dunno if either of these are true, but conjecturing…

tomasrojo · 05-10-2016 11:35am

Deedsie wrote: »

I think you are being slightly unfair. I listen to him most days and find him excellent. He is welcoming and mannerly to all guests. Can come across as him siding with them on a debate but he is fairly balanced for the most part.

I've formed an opinion of him over many years, but it's based only on fragments, as I don't especially like his style and only over-hear him in waiting rooms and shops and the like.

Most passionate I heard him in all these fragments was about speed limits on the Stillorgan dual carriageway.

Most unctuously in agreement: somebody promoting an unscientific medical treatment. Possibly this person.

Numerous dismissals of the clear orthodoxy in climate change.

I wasn't surprised to hear he ran with this latest segment.

NiallBoo · 05-10-2016 12:00pm

Chuchote wrote: »

I'm no chicken myself, but I'm amazed at how many of the radio gurus are from my generation. Are there no fit young cyclists who'd be good radio jocks?

Doesn't fit the narrative does it?

The listeners won't accept ranting and raving from a younger person, they'd much rather blame the 'soft generation of spineless young scroungers'

"EERROUGGHHJ...now as I was taught by the Christian brothers back when I was a wee nipper. He said, 'George, times are changing; you can't put gypsies in camps like the good old days, but at least you can still run over push-bikes and immigrants with your motor-carriage.' And rightly so, just as god and Michael Collins intended. "

ThisRegard · 05-10-2016 12:10pm

FFS, Ciaran Cuffe will be on with head troll George Hook now to talk about cyclists and how "they are planning on closing the quays down to motorists".

Newstalk has a problem.

Chuchote · 05-10-2016 12:12pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

FFS, Ciaran Cuffe will be on with head troll George Hook now to talk about cyclists and how "they are planning on closing the quays down to motorists".

Newstalk has a problem.

I hope Ciaran asks George (in reply to "Red lights whuffle whuffle rage" if he uses the phone in his car

ThisRegard · 05-10-2016 12:14pm

Well a judge previously classed him as being close to being a serial traffic offender based on the number of road traffic convictions he has so I'm sure he does.

Chuchote · 05-10-2016 12:15pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

Well a judge previously classed him as being close to being a serial traffic offender based on the number of road traffic convictions he has so I'm sure he does.

Good distraction to call him on those - if Ciaran could bring in a series of reports of George's driving…

Snickers Man · 05-10-2016 12:17pm

Chuchote wrote: »

If lawbreaking has an impact on sentiment, ok, let's start posting photos and videos of drivers using mobile phones, zipping through lights after they've turned red, whipping right around no-right-turn turns, close-passing cyclists, speeding, parking in cycle lanes, failing to indicate in time or at all, <snip>

Start??

You mean you've never heard of CycleDub??

Worth clicking on some of the videos just to hear the grating whiny drawl. He sounds like a male Joan Burton.

tomasrojo · 05-10-2016 12:17pm

Chuchote wrote: »

Good distraction to call him on those - if Ciaran could bring in a series of reports of George's driving…

He'd probably be better talking about the benefits for everyone of the new Liffey route, especially pedestrians.

Also, cars are being re-routed, not banned.

EDIT: ... re-routed for 450m. And public transport users will benefit too. So, most city-centre frequenters will be better off.

Chuchote · 05-10-2016 12:23pm

Snickers Man wrote: »

Start??

You mean you've never heard of CycleDub??

Oh lordy, I have seen some of those. They arouse the inner George Hook in me!

NiallBoo · 05-10-2016 12:26pm

Chuchote wrote: »

Oh lordy, I have seen some of those. They arouse the inner George Hook in me!

It's the voice - he could be asking you to marry him and it would still sound like disgruntled complaint.

Moflojo · 05-10-2016 12:30pm

Here's a podcast Newstalk made about the protest on Monday. It's unbelievable, makes it sound like everyone at the protest was on the brink of being killed at any moment. The protest was so easy-going and jovial.

http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/Newstalk_Drive/Henry_McKean_on_Drive/160418/Henry_rides_a_bike_to_find_out_why_cyclists_want_EUR1BN

"It was so scary!"

"Ooh, this feels a bit lethal..."

"A pedestrian just walked out in front of me!"

Roadhawk · 05-10-2016 12:46pm

Moflojo wrote: »

It's unbelievable, makes it sound like everyone at the protest was on the brink of being killed at any moment.

Thats a bit dramatic. I think it outlined the regular dangers faced by cyclists in Dublin because of the lack of good infrastructure.

Moflojo · 05-10-2016 12:59pm

Roadhawk wrote: »

Thats a bit dramatic. I think it outlined the regular dangers faced by cyclists in Dublin because of the lack of good infrastructure.

I thought it made us (cyclists) sound like a bunch of loons for even considering cycling in the city. It makes me think of the following:

First they ignore you. [Check]

Then they laugh at (ridicule) you. [Check]

Then they fight you. [Coming Soon]

Then you win. [Hopefully?]

Trojan · 05-10-2016 1:09pm

AlreadyHome wrote: »

You're right...I wonder is this all a result of boardsie chat or if perhaps the cycling protest might have brought some previously silent individuals out of the woodwork.

+1

AlreadyHome wrote: »

You're absolutely right, but I'd argue there's something positive about seeing the majority of responses coming from cyclists. The more coverage the cycling debate gets, the better. Take that Irish Times piece, for example. Pro-cyclist letter responses outnumbered the car driver's response 3 to 1.

I think the simple response here on this thread has been super. There were 2, possibly 3 great letters that I think were motivated in part by this thread, as well as more by folks like me that were read but not published.

IMO this is a very good thing. There's enough anti-cycling idiots getting air time and column inches, it's a massive positive to see calm, rational counter-arguments coming from cyclists. If this thread just resulted in that letters page it'd be a small victory, but if it encourages more - and continues to encourage more of the same in the future, that would be a significant positive.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The thing about being a cyclist for me anyway is.....

They all hate us anyway....

......why should we care what they think.

Because the idiots are literally dangerous. They encourage unhinged drivers in multi-ton vehicles to take aggressive action against cyclists. If their arguments are left unchecked, they convince otherwise reasonable drivers that their point is valid. They influence decision-makers with what seems to be a general public opinion which results in further anti-cycling measures.

I subscribe to the EFF (because American's digital rights are our digital rights). One thing they do very well, as you'd hope, is make it easy for people to contact decision makers.

Like I said, I think it's super that there's been some letters sent in to the IT, emails to councilors (and to a lessor degree some rational comments posted to the Indo comments section) as a result of this thread, and it'd be great to see it continued.

P_1 · 05-10-2016 1:49pm

Moflojo wrote: »

Here's a podcast Newstalk made about the protest on Monday. It's unbelievable, makes it sound like everyone at the protest was on the brink of being killed at any moment. The protest was so easy-going and jovial.

http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/Newstalk_Drive/Henry_McKean_on_Drive/160418/Henry_rides_a_bike_to_find_out_why_cyclists_want_EUR1BN

"It was so scary!"

"Ooh, this feels a bit lethal..."

"A pedestrian just walked out in front of me!"

Tbf I think that was him out in the traffic and not at the protest itself

Green Party: Ossian Smyth · 05-10-2016 2:16pm

I was on a Newstalk show a couple of weeks ago where they wanted to discuss helmets. All the guests were pro-cycling and we mostly talked about the joy of cycling and how everyone should try it.

audio here:
http://www.ossiansmyth.ie/newstalkcycling.mp3

endagibson · 05-10-2016 4:01pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

JD Mangan, on the other hand, believes motorists pay this mysterious "road tax" and makes the inexplicable link between insurance and infrastructure, overlooking of course that 22,000 cyclists have voluntary insurance through Cycling Ireland and that there's 100,000 (a figure that's likely to rise given the urgent state of the insurance market) uninsured drivers on our roads.

I saw some numbers the other day that got me thinking on this. According to this Journal article, motor tax brings in approximately €1.1bn each year.

This RSA document states that "The estimated cost of all road collisions reported to and recorded by, An Garda Síochána in 2012 was €773 million."

So we're left with approximately €327m of motor tax funding. (overall road deaths have decreased. To counter that, the cost of everything has probably risen since 2012).

Then I saw this article from 2014 that said "A total of €598 million has been allocated for the maintenance and improvement of our national, regional and local roads, which is broadly unchanged compared to last year."

Now we have a deficit of -€271m.

I'm confused. I thought that only motorists paid for the roads through tax. I'll dig a little further.

This document says on page 3 that the following is spent:

Roads - €751m
Vehicle and Driver licensing expenses - €14.5m
Road Safety Authority - €3.3m

But that makes the position worse. Now we're -€442m.

This budget statement from the Department of Transport (, Tourism and Sport) gives a Land Transport budget of €1.37bn. Out of this, "€555 million for roads maintenance and PPP projects"

This is better, as it only leaves a deficit of -€228m.

I realise the above is a mish-mash of different documents from different years, but I'm at work and I can't spend significant time on this. Whatever way I look at this, it looks like motor tax would cover the cost of roads if 70% of it wasn't spunked on cleaning up after motorised transport.

Am I missing something?

boardbeer · 05-10-2016 4:15pm

endagibson wrote: »

Am I missing something?

You've only scratched the surface. Consider:
* Cost of Garda Traffic Corps
* Road-specific emergency
* Tax concessions on car use
* State fuel subsidies
* Land use cost
* Noise
* Urban air pollution
* Climate change
* Congestion

Roadhawk · 05-10-2016 4:27pm

boardbeer wrote: »

You've only scratched the surface. Consider:
* Cost of Garda Traffic Corps
* Road-specific emergency
* Tax concessions on car use
* State fuel subsidies
* Land use cost
* Noise
* Urban air pollution
* Climate change
* Congestion

Ah sure cycling solves all of that :rolleyes:

ThisRegard · 05-10-2016 4:30pm

Roadhawk wrote: »

Ah sure cycling solves all of that :rolleyes:

6 out of 9 it very easily does, yes.

magicbastarder · 05-10-2016 4:30pm

endagibson wrote: »

I saw some numbers the other day that got me thinking on this. According to this Journal article, motor tax brings in approximately €1.1bn each year.

This RSA document states that "The estimated cost of all road collisions reported to and recorded by, An Garda Síochána in 2012 was €773 million."

So we're left with approximately €327m of motor tax funding. (overall road deaths have decreased. To counter that, the cost of everything has probably risen since 2012).

i'd seek clarification whether the estimated cost of €773m is a cost to the exchequer, or a cost to the economy.

Chips Lovell · 05-10-2016 4:35pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'd seek clarification whether the estimated cost of €773m is a cost to the exchequer, or a cost to the economy.

Did a bit of digging on that. It's cost to the exchequer. Biggest contributor is Hospital A&E costs.

ThisRegard · 05-10-2016 4:38pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Presumably it is the Garda Traffic corp that penalises rule breaking cyclists?

I'm sure any garda can penalise a rule breaking cyclist, just as they can penalise any person for rule breaking no matter what their form of transport is.

tomasrojo · 05-10-2016 4:47pm

I'm not too surprised by those numbers showing a deficit after the negatives of motoring are subtracted from the revenue generated. There have been a few analyses lately in different countries showing that motoring is essentially subsidised.

ThisRegard · 05-10-2016 5:25pm

I feel like I'm on media watch today, the discussion is coming up on the Last Word now on Today FM.

Chuchote · 05-10-2016 5:27pm

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Did a bit of digging on that. It's cost to the exchequer. Biggest contributor is Hospital A&E costs.

And more people cycling will mean fewer people going to hospital with heart attacks, diabetes, hypertension, clogged arteries. And fewer people driving will mean fewer people going to hospital with pollution-induced bronchitis and asthma.

ThisRegard · 05-10-2016 5:31pm

The Cork councillor on talking about it actually said "They don't even pay insurance". Pleb.

ThisRegard · 05-10-2016 5:36pm

And now he said there's a substantial number of troublesome cyclists that cyclist should have insurance. Tim Brosnan for all you Cork langers.

"Road tax" was also used.

endagibson · 05-10-2016 5:47pm

Roadhawk wrote: »

Ah sure cycling solves all of that :rolleyes:

Let's turn that around: which one of the following does utility cycling not at least reduce if not eliminate altogether?

* Cost of Garda Traffic Corps
* Road-specific emergency
* Tax concessions on car use
* State fuel subsidies
* Land use cost
* Noise
* Urban air pollution
* Climate change
* Congestion

Chuchote · 05-10-2016 6:15pm

endagibson wrote: »

Let's turn that around: which one of the following does utility cycling not at least reduce if not eliminate altogether?

* Cost of Garda Traffic Corps
* Road-specific emergency
* Tax concessions on car use
* State fuel subsidies
* Land use cost
* Noise
* Urban air pollution
* Climate change
* Congestion

Not to mention that it would enormously lessen the health bill, a huge proportion of which results from our obesogenic environment

Rokta · 05-10-2016 6:53pm

I wonder how many "cyclists" are also "motorists"..... Last time I checked I paid my road tax and I dare to use a bicycle for commuting...

And before anybody starts mentioning insurance... they should first make sure that every motorist has one, 8% of them don't.... like the one that hit me recently and no, I was not on a bike, I was in my car.

endagibson · 05-10-2016 7:26pm

Rokta wrote: »

I wonder how many "cyclists" are also "motorists"..... Last time I checked I paid my road tax and I dare to use a bicycle for commuting...

Indeed. I have a €280 a quarter paperweight sitting in the drive right now, only used at the weekends. :eek:

In addition to all of the above, the roads that we do have in cities would not need to be so large and expensive. As the table below shows, roads for cars really are poor value.

Cpfy05VWYAAFZqf.jpg:large

It's been a while since I first saw that table and I believe the source is American. The currency would support that, but the origin and currency doesn't really matter. The logic would hold regardless of location.

Pinch Flat · 05-10-2016 7:43pm

Rokta wrote: »

I wonder how many "cyclists" are also "motorists"..... Last time I checked I paid my road tax and I dare to use a bicycle for commuting...

And before anybody starts mentioning insurance... they should first make sure that every motorist has one, 8% of them don't.... like the one that hit me recently and no, I was not on a bike, I was in my car.

Yep, I'm one as well - car stays at home Monday to Friday.

The whole insurance thing I don't get, in terms of the motorists that argue that cyclists should have this. Usually they see it as a means to recompense them if a cyclist hits a wing mirror or scratches their car. No issue if a cyclist is negligent in this regard.

But over 22,000 cyclists already have voluntary insurance - personal injury, medical expenses, time off work are usually at the forefront of people's minds who take it out. Not wing mirrors and paintwork.

But as you've unfortunately experienced, uninsured drivers are a huge problem - 100,000 on the roads currently. Our cycling group was hit by a drunk motorist about 12 months ago - no insurance. Thankfully no one injured, but even if they had of been they'd have zero comeback against that driver.

magicbastarder · 05-10-2016 7:49pm

add me to the list of people who own a car but who do not use it to commute to work; but in my case i take public transport cos i'm lazy and i've yet to engineer a way of carrying an idiotically large laptop on my back without fear of it getting damaged, either in a physical spill, or liquid spill.

Rokta · 05-10-2016 7:53pm

Well there is a solution for uninsured drivers as long as the car is identified, the MIBI will take over for the uninsured driver.

If a personal limited liability insurance would be offered in this country for a reasonable price (ha!) I probably would be the first to sign up. However this is limited to trade and certain professions while in other countries it is available for everybody.

Wishbone Ash · 05-10-2016 7:58pm

Rokta wrote: »

Well there is a solution for uninsured drivers as long as the car is identified, the MIBI will take over for the uninsured driver.....

Yes, but those of us who play the game legitimately are charged a levy on our policies to cover that.

Beasty · 05-10-2016 8:05pm

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Yes, but those of us who play the game legitimately are charged a levy on our policies to cover that.

2 grand worth of damage to the car, whiplash for me, and setting my wider recovery back 12 months or so when my car was rammed (twice!) by an uninsured driver a couple of months back. Sorry guys but I'm another "claimant" that will end up pushing up the cost of motor insurance for everyone

endagibson · 05-10-2016 8:15pm

Beasty wrote: »

when my car was rammed (twice!) by an uninsured driver

How does that happen?

Rokta · 05-10-2016 8:22pm

Same here claiming through them.

Beasty · 05-10-2016 8:22pm

endagibson wrote: »

How does that happen?

Driver accelerated up behind me (probably within a metre or so) and backed off 3 times. 4th time they didn't back off quickly enough and rammed into the back of my car. I slowed to a halt, and they rammed into the back of my car again. I got out to remonstrate (fired up on adrenalin). Driver backed up and drove off.

Wishbone Ash · 05-10-2016 8:29pm

Beasty wrote: »

Driver accelerated up behind me (probably within a metre or so) and backed off 3 times. 4th time they didn't back off quickly enough and rammed into the back of my car. I slowed to a halt, and they rammed into the back of my car again. I got out to remonstrate (fired up on adrenalin). Driver backed up and drove off.

They probably did a lot more damage to their own vehicle that to that tank you drive!

Beasty · 05-10-2016 8:37pm

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

They probably did a lot more damage to their own vehicle that to that tank you drive!

Don't reckon their car was worth the amount of damage done to mine. Did get a couple of bits they left at the scene - plastic air inlet (or something like that) and front number plate (which is now with the Guards). When I went to report it I was told there was no record of current insurance for that vehicle. The registered owner is going to be in trouble one way or other - they either failed to notify a change in ownership, or allowed someone to drive it uninsured, or committed (what I would assume to be) a criminal offence by deliberately ramming my car and then leaving the scene

Wishbone Ash · 05-10-2016 8:49pm

Beasty wrote: »

...The registered owner is going to be in trouble one way or other - they either failed to notify a change in ownership, or allowed someone to drive it uninsured, or committed (what I would assume to be) a criminal offence by deliberately ramming my car and then leaving the scene

It could have been stolen when it crashed into you (although that wouldn't explain why it wasn't insured unless it was kept off public roads by the owner).

Journalism and cycling

Comments