New Master Plan for Cherrywood

patrickbrophy18 · 01-06-2015 10:20pm #1

I'm surprised that a standalone thread hasn't been set up for this. However, I've seen the Master Plan for the Cherrywood area. There is a dedicated site here about the plan. It doesn't go into the granular detail as it is a high level statement of what to expect from the area with artists impressions of how it will look. In my opinion, it is incredibly impressive. What do y'all think?

Larbre34 · 01-06-2015 11:28pm

Its an impressive proposal, but it still has to be approved by the Council within the framework of the SDZ planning scheme. Probably a long way to go to an accepted layout yet.

100gSoma · 02-06-2015 8:32am

Yes, a very impressive and comprehensive proposal.
I note Hines promise on their about us page. "Our Promise: To always finish what we start". I guess that should alleviate some of the concerns that mentioned Adamstown. i.e. Adamstown planned for 10000 homes and built 1200 and boarded up areas of the site. I guess that was a finance issue.

Some of the proposals in the Cherrywood masterplan are very positive.

An elevated pedestrian way from the commercial area over the R118 into the retail area.

All 3 green parks connected by car free greenway arteries to allow jogging and cycling and walking throughout all of the greenspace/parks in the development.

Parks containing childrens playgrounds, tennis, basketball, open playing fields.

Bowling, cinema, restaurants, shops etc, close to the R118 road and the commercial area.
I'm not a fan of the "onstreet" parking though. It just seems to cause endless problems when one family (in a 1 bed apartment for example) has 2 cars and a visitor comes for example.
I think basement car parking might have been better and keep the streets clear.

the groutch · 02-06-2015 9:34am

it's about as realistic as the Dun Laoghaire "quarters" plan.

ted1 · 02-06-2015 10:17am

Looks good , with a few exceptions.
I'd prefer if they left the farm land across the M50 alone.
There is no mention of an energy policy. A localised CHP plant which provides district heating should be looked at, as well as putting PV on the roofs.

The site makes no mention of a time line nor does it breakdown the proposal into phases and what is being built when.

There is no waste plan, there will be a lot of excavating and it doesn't mention where it will all go,

HINES brought 300 acres, yet they are talking about 3 parks, one of them being the same size as Marley 300+. So who owns that land, is the council being left to foot the bill for that ?

Larbre34 · 02-06-2015 10:21am

Again, timelines and detailed construction proposals, including site waste, would be dealt with in the formal planning application. This is merely a design concept.

ted1 · 02-06-2015 10:46am

Larbre34 wrote: »

Again, timelines and detailed construction proposals, including site waste, would be dealt with in the formal planning application. This is merely a design concept.

It would be nice to be giving a tough indication. Like building starts Q3 2015 oppose to 2020

100gSoma · 02-06-2015 10:57am

ted1 wrote: »

It would be nice to be giving a tough indication. Like building starts Q3 2015 oppose to 2020

Senior Managing Director at Hines, Brian Moran stated:

"We want to deliver the housing and amenity elements of the plan up front and we are working in collaboration with Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council to get to that point. We are very hopeful that before the end of this year, we can start constructing the roads infrastructure and the three major new parks planned for Cherrywood."

Larbre34 · 02-06-2015 11:22am

100gSoma wrote: »

Senior Managing Director at Hines, Brian Moran stated:

"We want to deliver the housing and amenity elements of the plan up front and we are working in collaboration with Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council to get to that point. We are very hopeful that before the end of this year, we can start constructing the roads infrastructure and the three major new parks planned for Cherrywood."

That's quite possible, given that planning applications approved within an SDZ cannot be appealed, but I would suggest its unlikely due to the amount of additional information likely to be required and reaching agreement with the Council on the specifications of the public areas and infrastructure, there will be many arguments about spec and money to be had, and also you can't build the housing without the access roads, so they are being a bit disingenuous with that statement, as you might expect from developers/promoters

In my experience of similar developments like Adamstown, they would be doing well to start on site in around a year from now, and maybe begin to have the homes occupied in early 2018

100gSoma · 02-06-2015 11:52am

Larbre34 wrote: »

and also you can't build the housing without the access roads, so they are being a bit disingenuous with that statement

Yeah I wouldn't expect housing to be built until 2017 earliest. I took from the statement that they want to start ground work before the end of this year. i.e. build the access roads, the basic infrastructure, and mark out the parks etc. We'll see.

frash · 02-06-2015 1:40pm

Surprised nobody has mentioned IKEA yet.
That rumour is due to come around again soon I'd say. :rolleyes:

100gSoma · 02-06-2015 1:59pm

yeah, IKEA

Most of the people I know in D18 seem to be all on for that aspect of the cherrywood development. The drive to the other one is a bit far. lol.
anyway, there has been a definitive rejection of this by the council this time last year. They have clearly stated they will not rezone land or alter the master plan for the SDZ in Cherrywood to accommodate a large scale warehouse store. So it won't be happening in Cherrywood anywood. Maybe the Carrickmines retail park will handle it, although, I don't think they have the capacity. Access roads already under huge strain on weekends getting and out.

https://newstalk.ie/Planning-permission-denied-for-second-Dublin-IKEA-store

crushproof · 02-06-2015 3:01pm

It's an ambitious plan, and it would great to see it fully developed.
However, as mentioned, issues such as a CHP, on street parking and PV should be looked at again. I would like to see a breakdown, and sizes of the apartments planned. Hopefully they are not shoeboxes and are more of European size with balconies (and not bloody "French balconies"). The parklands and connecting links is a great idea, but the question is who will ultimately foot the bill for maintenance?
I'm not sure about the retail aspect, whether there will be enough demand for such a large centre remains to be seem. Of course supermarkets, banks, pharmacies are essential but these days surely it's a risk having smaller outlets? (With internet shopping etc).
Also I didn't realise the land across the M50 was included, which is a shame as I thought this was a sort of greenbelt.

Larbre34 · 02-06-2015 3:45pm

The IKEA question is settled.

A good part of the lands south of the M50 is proposed to be parks and amenities, I hope this is very much the case

patrickbrophy18 · 04-12-2015 1:22am

It looks like significant momentum has been made in relation to the Cherrywood Master Plan. Hines Interests Limited Partnership have just submitted a planning application at the following link:

http://planning.dlrcoco.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=DZ15A/0758&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=%27wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=1810936%26StartIndex=11%26SortOrder=rgndat:desc%26DispResultsAs=wphappsresweek1%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%27%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E

I had a read through it and it looks cool.:D

ted1 · 04-12-2015 1:50am

looking forward to seen some progress. 1 thing i took from the planning app, is the removal of the roundabout and installing signal control junctions, surely the roundabout negates the needs for such junctions. cant imagine Tullyvale residents being happy with that

Larbre34 · 04-12-2015 1:35pm

The convention now for urban street design is to remove roundabouts, they offer no refuge for pedestrians and cyclists who are top of the road user priority, especially at that location where the approach speeds of a large traffic volume are high. That massive big roundabout is only suitable for the junction of a national road in an extra-urban environment.

Tullyvale residents will probably be happier when their kids are less likely to get skittled on the way to the shops.

Dubl07 · 04-12-2015 7:08pm

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

It looks like significant momentum has been made in relation to the Cherrywood Master Plan. Hines Interests Limited Partnership have just submitted a planning application at the following link:

http://planning.dlrcoco.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=DZ15A/0758&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=%27wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=1810936%26StartIndex=11%26SortOrder=rgndat:desc%26DispResultsAs=wphappsresweek1%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%27%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E

I had a read through it and it looks cool.:D

Have they never heard of a hard return? That's a wodge of text.

patrickbrophy18 · 04-12-2015 11:16pm

Dubl07 wrote: »

Have they never heard of a hard return? That's a wodge of text.

Too right. It's quite hard to read and the "Main Location" section starts with a lower case "i" . It may have been converted to plain text when it was submitted with some parts truncated. The interface for the planning application system appears to be Apache Tomcat as per the Favicon (short for Favorite Icon) in the address bar. So, the back-end is probably a MySQL database which can remove formatting or truncate text depending on the data types and number of characters allowed for each field. Geek mode off.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I have to agree that the replacement of the roundabout with a signalized crossing isn't a bad idea. I drive past this roundabout everyday on the way to work and it looks like a pedestrians worst nightmare. The roundabout itself is enormous with 2 slip lanes (one that is just a cul de sac) which is rather excessive given that the roundabout is up to 3 lanes in width at certain points. It doesn't appear to have any designated crossing points on any of the arms which screams car-centric to me. The one at the entrance to the office blocks is a good 50 meters away from the roundabout which hardly counts. It could still remain as a roundabout. However, I say bring in the Dutch engineers and not that ghastly Design Manual for Urban Roads and Streets.

Supercell · 31-12-2015 3:04pm

Traffic lights on the roundabout at rush hour is going to result in total gridlock every morning and evening, surely given the lack of pedestrian traffic there they could put a zebra crossing instead of automated lights with bumps in the road to slow down the traffic on approach? In the evenings, as it is, the traffic coming off the M50 to go on to the N11 southbound is backed up all the way to the M50 slip and often blocks the traffic trying to leave the industrial estate as it is, I wonder how bad its going to be with additional lights and the proposed development.

Lots of new signage and planting going on in the Industrial park recently (are they both owned by the same consortium?)
Last I heard was the aim was to start building in 2016 but that there is multiple objections lodged by local residents that need to be worked though first.
I saw the other day that there is a bunch of new planning notices outside the Spar shop but it was pouring rain so i didn't stop for a nosy.

Larbre34 · 31-12-2015 4:40pm

Just to re-iterate, private car traffic is not the top priority, all other considerations come first.

I dont believe the intention is to signalise the roundabout, but to remove it altogether and replace with a multi lane signalised junction. With SCATS traffic lights, that should cope perfectly well with traffic

Supercell · 31-12-2015 11:03pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Just to re-iterate, private car traffic is not the top priority, all other considerations come first.

I don't believe the intention is to signalise the roundabout, but to remove it altogether and replace with a multi lane signalised junction. With SCATS traffic lights, that should cope perfectly well with traffic

SCATS sounds great in theory but as a local I can 100% tell you that the lights leading down to Wyattville road are anything but SCATS - there is no green wave, its red red, red all the way and usually gridlocked. Or, if I'm lucky to catch a green light I'm almost guaranteed to get a red one next junction. The pedestrian crossings don't change quickly on the push of a button so that the green man rarely ushers pedestrians across as minutes and pedestrians have already passed, its just stops traffic at the junctions while everyone waits for nobody to cross.

I live in the original Cherrywood estate and walk (or drive if its pouring rain) to the industrial estate to work and am well aware of the need to accommodate pedestrians but the current and suggested system does neither in my opinion.

I can foresee tailbacks on the M50 during rush hours and lives lost in bad weather as a result of implementing lights instead of the roundabout.

Cross road traffic from pedestrians to the rest of the estate is not heavy, there is a spar there and places of work , that's it. A pelican, or zebra crossing would be enough in my opinion. Getting rid of the round about will inconvenience 1000's during rush hour to benefit 10's of pedestrians, those of which will wait for the no doubt well delayed green man.

I can understand prioritising pedestrians but there needs to be a balance and consideration given to private car drivers too - most pedestrians are car drives also lets not forget.

Larbre34 · 01-01-2016 2:59am

It will be a different story when there are 30 or 40,000 new residents in the SDZ, thats what the changes are to try and cater for.

For what its worth, i come down from the M50 every morning around 9am and often get a green wave from the Wyattville link up to Church Road.

the groutch · 01-01-2016 10:30am

if there's going to be that much traffic there would it not make more sense to have some sort of overhead, or underground walkway(s) instead of traffic lights?

markpb · 01-01-2016 10:49am

the groutch wrote: »

if there's going to be that much traffic there would it not make more sense to have some sort of overhead, or underground walkway(s) instead of traffic lights?

Both are very expensive to construct and the latter attracts anti social behaviour but more importantly they marginalize and inconvenience pedestrians, encourage them to ignore the facilities and cross the road normally and give motorists the impression that they're on a motorway. It would be a bad way to start when trying to create a new town centre.

ted1 · 01-01-2016 11:49am

Supercell wrote: »

Last I heard was the aim was to start building in 2016 but that there is multiple objections lodged by local residents that need to be worked though first.
.

Are you sure that there's multiple appeals ? There's none showing up online

Larbre34 · 01-01-2016 2:07pm

the groutch wrote: »

if there's going to be that much traffic there would it not make more sense to have some sort of overhead, or underground walkway(s) instead of traffic lights?

There will be, and a whole new network of streets. Looking at the current main road in isolation doesnt cover the scope of it

patrickbrophy18 · 02-01-2016 2:31am

markpb wrote: »

Both are very expensive to construct

As this is the last roundabout before a major motorway from Dun Laoghaire and with the predicted population growth, a signalized crossing will likely cause tailbacks which may very well propagate on to the M50. So, it might be a very rare exception.

markpb wrote: »

The latter attracts anti social behaviour

Given that the ones at the junctions between Mount Merrion Avenue and the Rock Road and the second between Carysfort Avenue and Frascati Road were of subway standard, they were bound to attract hooligans. The one in the below picture is probably far more exposed:

The lack of exposure seen in previous underpass designs would indeed provide ample opportunity for anti-social behavior to thrive.

markpb wrote: »

They marginalize and inconvenience pedestrians, encourage them to ignore the facilities and cross the road normally and give motorists the impression that they're on a motorway.

The idea behind double-decker roundabouts is free-flow for ALL road users. In fact, in the above picture there could also be an X-shaped cross path to allow pedestrians to cross diagonally. Some designs are undoubtedly an inconvenience to pedestrians if they consist of steps, deflections from desired lines and other time-consuming movements which would be quite marginalizing. However, if done right, pedestrians would not "ignore the facilities".

Either-way, it will be interesting to see how it pans out.

Alkers · 06-01-2016 4:07pm

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

It looks like significant momentum has been made in relation to the Cherrywood Master Plan. Hines Interests Limited Partnership have just submitted a planning application at the following link:

http://planning.dlrcoco.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=DZ15A/0758&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=%27wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=1810936%26StartIndex=11%26SortOrder=rgndat:desc%26DispResultsAs=wphappsresweek1%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%27%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E

I had a read through it and it looks cool.:D

Can anyone download these? I can only get the 1st 1 page document?

Supercell · 06-01-2016 4:46pm

ted1 wrote: »

Are you sure that there's multiple appeals ? There's none showing up online

I heard it from someone who is involved with the CoCo in an informal basis, don't know the specifics. he was of the opinion that these will may delay the startup for some months at least.

Larbre34 · 07-01-2016 11:19am

You can't appeal planning within an SDZ. The SDZ itself was subject to public consultation. If it conforms to the framework in the Planners minds, that's it decided.

New Master Plan for Cherrywood

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