2019 All Ireland Senior Football Championship Mod note: Post #1

C__MC · 26-05-2019 11:16am

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Would Monaghan do them?

No they wouldn't,

OldMrBrennan83 · 26-05-2019 11:17am

C__MC wrote: »

No they wouldn't,

It'll be up to Wicklow so

Powerhouse · 26-05-2019 11:23am

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Powerhouse, you don't understand local rivalry. Roscommon hadn't won in Castlebar for 33 years. Thete were grown men crying on the pitch after that game last night.
Not every team or group of fans are as cold and professional as the Dubs.
Roscommon had only 4 players starting from the 2017 connacht final afaik
It's almost a new set of players

I never questioned Roscommon's right to enjoy themselves and celebrate, and I would acknowledge their achievement totally. All I did was argue that David Brady's pre-match comments while politically unacceptable had some basis in evidence. It's just that most people are too cute to every say something like that publicly.

And suggesting that Roscommon's ultimate outcome remains unsure is hardly taking from their justified elation at winning. You are not the first person to point out the turnover of players - to be honest that would not necessarily reassure me about Roscommon. Do they really have that depth of talent or is there a serious beating waiting in their near future?

threeball · 26-05-2019 11:28am

Powerhouse wrote: »

What the this'll-be-pinned-up-on-the-dressing-room-wall brigade can never explain is how a team like Dublin motivates themselves if they are not being insulted the day before the match.

In this day and age an inter-county manager would need to come up with something more strategic than an audio clip of David Brady to prepare his team. Whether I like it or not has nothing to do with it.

The matter of whether Mayo often beat Roscommon easily or not is irrelevant. In a rational world not informed by superstitions about the past and by "x don't ever fear Y" clichés, Brady has a point. Dublin, who are the benchmark, would beat Roscommon by 15 points.

As a county which has reached four All-Ireland finals this decade and got within a point of the winners in three of them, beat Roscommon by 21 points last time they met in championship, and was able to win the League this year while Roscommon were relegated, would be very unambitious if they could not accept that some people are entitled to hold Mayo to that kind of standard.

It might not suit Mayo people as it pins them to a standard of expectation they might be unable to meet, while their opponents can naturally beef up the impact of the win with the "we were written off" claptrap. But the faux offence in evidence here is an absolute joke. It was a comment, an opinion, no more no less. And an opinion that many would privately concede too.

You are completely ignoring the fact that these things are motivating and games are won on small percentages. In this case 1 pt was the difference. The team needs a gameplan etc but little factors can tip the balance. As I already said aggression and mindset are 50% of the game at inter county. Look at Cork in the hurling two weeks ago and then last week. It wasn't a gameplan that changed in 7 days it was the mindset.

You also ignore the fact that Dublin are not only a much better team than roscommon but a much better team than mayo. Just like boxing however, styles make matches so just because Dublins style hammers roscommon but fares less well against mayo doesn't mean that mayo are 12pts better than roscommon. History has shown this is almost never the case so why would yesterday be any different.

Powerhouse · 26-05-2019 11:33am

threeball wrote: »

You are completely ignoring the fact that these things are motivating and games are won on small percentages. .

You are ignoring the fact that there isn't a whit of evidence that anyone in the Roscommon camp was even aware of the comments. In any event, I don't believe and never have believed that offence taken at a comment the day before a game is worth anything more than a few roars in the dressing-room beforehand. When lungs are bursting, limbs are tired, and split-second decision have to be taken late in a game, energy derived from this source is of little help.

As for your view that Mayo's style somehow doesn't fare well against Roscommon is flawed even if they have hardly played each other often enough in recent times to really judge if something mystical is at play when Roscommon play Mayo. The facts are clear and quite damning of your view it has to be said - in 2017 Mayo won by 21 points in the replay; in 2013 Mayo won by 12 points; in 2009 Mayo won by 20 points. I can't see the value in going back earlier than that other than to say Roscommon did not win a match since 2001. (To put some chronological context on that, Westmeath and Laois have beaten Dublin in the championship since then) So contrary to what you say, arguably yesterday was in fact different because the recent trend has been a Mayo win and possibly by quite a big margin at that.

gormdubhgorm · 26-05-2019 11:36am

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Powerhouse, you don't understand local rivalry. Roscommon hadn't won in Castlebar for 33 years. Thete were grown men crying on the pitch after that game last night.
Not every team or group of fans are as cold and professional as the Dubs.
Roscommon had only 4 players starting from the 2017 connacht final afaik
It's almost a new set of players

I understand the rivalry when I was in Roscommon to see them play Dublin, my eyes were opened.
The Roscommon fan I was talking to was telling me how much they hate Mayo.
He explained the Ballaghaderreen thing to me, and why Andy Moran was particularly disliked.
He even went as far to say when Dublin were playing Mayo in the AI finals and AI Semi Finals Roscommon people wanted the Dubs to win!

So I am delighted for the Rossies they are my 'second team' this year.

nice_guy80 · 26-05-2019 11:40am

Powerhouse wrote: »

I never questioned Roscommon's right to enjoy themselves and celebrate, and I would acknowledge their achievement totally. All I did was argue that David Brady's pre-match comments while politically unacceptable had some basis in evidence. It's just that most people are too cute to every say something like that publicly.

And suggesting that Roscommon's ultimate outcome remains unsure is hardly taking from their justified elation at winning. You are not the first person to point out the turnover of players - to be honest that would not necessarily reassure me about Roscommon. Do they really have that depth of talent or is there a serious beating waiting in their near future?

Roscommon lost to mayo in the league by 1 point. And Ros kicked that game away. For a Mayo pundit to write off Roscommon and say they'll lose by 10-12 points makes a complete mockery of Mayos opponents. He was beaten by Roscommon a few times in his career too.

Roscommon have a huge turnover of players as there are no jobs in the county and they don't have multi-million sponsors like the Dubs to keep players on board.
Players have to move for work. And it's much harder to be committed if you face a 2 hour journey home to train or for games

nice_guy80 · 26-05-2019 11:41am

Powerhouse wrote: »

You are ignoring the fact that there isn't a whit of evidence that anyone in the Roscommon camp was even aware of the comments. In any event, I don't believe and never have believed that offence taken at a comment the day before a game is worth anything more than a few roars in the dressing-room beforehand. When lungs are bursting, limbs are tired, and split-second decision have to be taken late in a game, energy derived from this source is of little help.

Never underestimate hatred or disdain. Two very powerful motivational factors
They will keep you running and working for 70 mins

And Dublin only beat Ros by 5 points in the league

Powerhouse · 26-05-2019 11:59am

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Roscommon lost to mayo in the league by 1 point.

They did indeed. And in the same competition Monaghan beat Dublin, and Tipperary beat Donegal. And Roscommon were relegated and Mayo won the competition. A very reliable form-guide indeed which Brady should not have ignored.

Powerhouse · 26-05-2019 12:03pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Never underestimate hatred or disdain. Two very powerful motivational factors
They will keep you running and working for 70 mins

Not point is discussing that - it's not measurable. You can claim anything you like and it can't be proven, disproven, or even plausibly argued. There are so many variables in the mindsets of 27 or 28 players on a panel that such nebulous nonsense as "hatred" is inadmissible. One guy might hate everyone on the basis of some perceived slight but what some lad said about an acre of land back in the 1940s, but chances are he'll be surrounded by many perfectly well-adjusted guys many of whom will have shared digs with/socialised with their opponents in college.

Dirkziggler · 26-05-2019 12:05pm

Only joining the discussion huge change needed in the Mayo set up. The arguments against the control from a certain club over the years is starting to hold weight some lads there could no doubt be replaced but I feel they are there due to their club connections.

nice_guy80 · 26-05-2019 12:08pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

Not point is discussing that - it's not measurable. You can claim anything you like and it can't be proven, disproven, or even plausibly argued. There are so many variables in the mindsets of 27 or 28 players on a panel that such nebulous nonsense as "hatred" is inadmissible. One guy might hate everyone on the basis of some perceived slight but what some lad said about an acre of land back in the 1940s, but chances are he'll be surrounded by many perfectly well-adjusted guys many of whom will have shared digs with/socialised with their opponents in college.

You don't understand local rivalries so. They are intrinsic to the GAA. Ros v Mayo is a rivalry passed down through generations.
And there are practically no rivalries in Leinster

26-05-2019 12:09pm

Dirkziggler wrote: »

Only joining the discussion huge change needed in the Mayo set up. The arguments against the control from a certain club over the years is starting to hold weight some lads there could no doubt be replaced but I feel they are there due to their club connections.

I would say that Aiden O'Shea was excellent last night. Almost won it for Mayo despite some of the shocking forwards/goalie around him.

nice_guy80 · 26-05-2019 12:11pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

They did indeed. And in the same competition Monaghan beat Dublin, and Tipperary beat Donegal. And Roscommon were relegated and Mayo won the competition. A very reliable form-guide indeed which Brady should not have ignored.

The Roscommon manager was only appointed in November. Roscommon started the league well then fell off. In fact the push v Tyrone relegated them.
The break since the league was the first 7 week period the manager had to work with players without having a league game at the weekend.

Dirkziggler · 26-05-2019 12:14pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I would say that Aiden O'Shea was excellent last night. Almost won it for Mayo despite some of the shocking forwards/goalie around him.

Was he the only man on panel from Breaffy last night?

26-05-2019 12:18pm

Dirkziggler wrote: »

Was he the only man on panel from Breaffy last night?

Who your talking about is obvious to everybody. Might be time to try a new goalie if we get a good draw in the qualifiers. Certainly new forwards need to be brought in if we get an easy draw, some of them were gutless last night.

gormdubhgorm · 26-05-2019 12:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Who your talking about is obvious to everybody. Might be time to try a new goalie if we get a good draw in the qualifiers. Certainly new forwards need to be brought in if we get an easy draw, some of them were gutless last night.

As a neutral I used to feel sorry for the Mayo team.
But as they kept throwing away chances I started feeling less and less sorry for them.
It is the Mayo fans I feel sorry for.
I would really be questioning what the Mayo management does in training at this stage.
Do they have shooting drills for the forwards?
Are the players drilled to constantly close down thier men/space?
Are the players thought to play in a set structure?

Plus when you think of it Mayo were relying on a 36 year old to stay on the pitch so he could take a free. When he was not there it was panic stations.

It reminded me of the time Paddy Christie ended up on 45's against Westmeath back in the Tommy Lyons days.

Powerhouse · 26-05-2019 12:29pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

You don't understand local rivalries so. They are intrinsic to the GAA. Ros v Mayo is a rivalry passed down through generations.
And there are practically no rivalries in Leinster

I don't doubt that such rivalries exist but I question their relevance. What good did hatred do Roscommon in 2009 when Mayo beat them by 20 points? What good did hatred do Roscommon in 2013 when Mayo beat them by 12 points? What good did hatred do Roscommon in 2017 when Mayo beat them by 21 points?

These things are fine and can be retro-fitted to a result as required to add pleasure but in advance of it provide empty energy if any at all, and have long since been superseded by strange modernities like strategy and preparation. Hence the savage beatings Roscommon have endured from Mayo most of the time in the last decade. Presumably they were equally p*ssed off about Ballaghadereen during all that time.

Dirkziggler · 26-05-2019 12:32pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Who your talking about is obvious to everybody. Might be time to try a new goalie if we get a good draw in the qualifiers. Certainly new forwards need to be brought in if we get an easy draw, some of them were gutless last night.

I just feel they need to start spanning their scouts far and wide in a county that has plenty to offer.

They should of achieved so much more over the years which is a Shame

Powerhouse · 26-05-2019 12:33pm

Dirkziggler wrote: »

Only joining the discussion huge change needed in the Mayo set up. The arguments against the control from a certain club over the years is starting to hold weight some lads there could no doubt be replaced but I feel they are there due to their club connections.

Any chance you could explain this reference? That's an information request by the way and not an I-dare-you-to-say-it thing.

Dirkziggler · 26-05-2019 12:38pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

Any chance you could explain this reference? That's an information request by the way and not an I-dare-you-to-say-it thing.

Breaffy Mafia?

gormdubhgorm · 26-05-2019 12:39pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

I don't doubt that such rivalries exist but I question their relevance. What good did hatred do Roscommon in 2009 when Mayo beat them by 20 points? What good did hatred do Roscommon in 2013 when Mayo beat them by 12 points? What good did hatred do Roscommon in 2017 when Mayo beat them by 21 points?

These things are fine and can be retro-fitted to a result as required to add pleasure but in advance of it provide empty energy if any at all, and have long since been superseded by strange modernities like strategy and preparation. Hence the savage beatings Roscommon have endured from Mayo most of the time in the last decade. Presumably they were equally p*ssed off about Ballaghadereen during all that time.

This is a very good point, when a team wins that have not for a while suddenly it is turned into 'they wanted it more' - 'they were hungier'. Dongahy the 'expert' analyst was emphasising these cliches on Sky Sports.

It was almost as if all discussions of tactics, management on the sideline, use of a spare man, lack of a freetaker, all became irrelevant because of this 'hunger'.

Also, the commentator actually mentioned that a lot of Roscommon supporters stayed away because they were afraid they would be hammered again. This was despite thier 'hunger' for victory I suppose?

rossie1977 · 26-05-2019 1:33pm

Donaghy has a point. Without hunger and desire you won't win much. Roscommon have had some supremely talented players over past 15 years but often as a group they let their heads drop when things went wrong and completely collapsed.

3-4 years ago Mayo would have sailed home by 5-6 points once they took the lead in 24th minute of second half..last night Roscommon hassled and harried and drove forward after going behind (despite being down to 14). That block by Niall Daly near the end summed up the determination to win.

gormdubhgorm · 26-05-2019 1:43pm

rossie1977 wrote: »

Donaghy has a point. Without hunger and desire you won't win much. Roscommon have had some supremely talented players over past 15 years but often as a group they let their heads drop when things went wrong and completely collapsed.

3-4 years ago Mayo would have sailed home by 5-6 points once they took the lead in 24th minute of second half..last night Roscommon hassled and harried and drove forward after going behind (despite being down to 14). That block by Niall Daly near the end summed up the determination to win.

I can see your point to an extent.
But you could have 'hunger and desire' and still lose.
If Daly missed that block, Moran scored the point - Keegan points the last free and Mayo won. Then no doubt Donaghy would have a different narrative.
Mayo's experience etc

Basically what I am saying is his analysis was lazy and based more so on the scoreboard, rather than anything else.

Powerhouse · 26-05-2019 1:57pm

That sums it up really. Mayo missed a very very scoreable free at the end. If they'd scored that all this stuff about hunger would be irrelevant. That's the problem with the "hunger" argument. Everybody knows that in any endeavour determination and attitude matter but they are too often lazily posited as the catch-all explanation for a result. Mayo conceded two goals more than they scored and kicked 17 wides. Hard to win anything that way.

Stoner · 26-05-2019 2:22pm

Score for Donegal!

Might settle in now

nice_guy80 · 26-05-2019 2:33pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

I don't doubt that such rivalries exist but I question their relevance. What good did hatred do Roscommon in 2009 when Mayo beat them by 20 points? What good did hatred do Roscommon in 2013 when Mayo beat them by 12 points? What good did hatred do Roscommon in 2017 when Mayo beat them by 21 points?

These things are fine and can be retro-fitted to a result as required to add pleasure but in advance of it provide empty energy if any at all, and have long since been superseded by strange modernities like strategy and preparation. Hence the savage beatings Roscommon have endured from Mayo most of the time in the last decade. Presumably they were equally p*ssed off about Ballaghadereen during all that time.

Or the fact that Roscommon teams have had huge baggage going to Castlebar for decades

BonnieSituation · 26-05-2019 2:41pm

threeball wrote: »

The best an fairest way to do it is divide the league into 3 divisions. If you're in the top two you play in the all Ireland. Division 3 have a separate championship. That means even if you are division 3 at the start of the year you still have the chance to play in the all Ireland by getting promoted first. It's great preparation too.

Leave the league alone.

Strabanimal · 26-05-2019 3:09pm

Yellow card? Laughable

OldMrBrennan83 · 26-05-2019 3:09pm

That easily should have been a red.

Strabanimal · 26-05-2019 3:12pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

That easily should have been a red.

Giving a dirty defensive team like Donegal the ability to do that with just a yellow is a joke. Player taken out straight after it too.

The refs need to be consistent

Hammer Archer · 26-05-2019 3:12pm

Not a chance was that a red. Fermanagh man made a meal of it.

OldMrBrennan83 · 26-05-2019 3:16pm

That's some shambolic defending.

Strabanimal · 26-05-2019 3:16pm

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Not a chance was that a red. Fermanagh man made a meal of it.

So blatently tackling a player around the neck is just a yellow now? The theatrics doesnt matter.

Another foul from Donegal.

tanko · 26-05-2019 3:17pm

Yeah, a red would have been very harsh there.

threeball · 26-05-2019 3:18pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Leave the league alone.

Why? Adding the top two teams from division 2 to division 1 is hardly doing it irreparable damage. I'd argue that those teams would have a good chance of beating all but the top two in a given year.

The league is too short to be considered a proper league and has no bearing on championship. It would mean more if it did.

Strabanimal · 26-05-2019 3:20pm

55mins and theyre doing this. Truly ugly style of play they have.

If Tyrone played like this theyd be slaughtered with abuse.

Edit: another foul from Donegal

Hammer Archer · 26-05-2019 3:21pm

Strabanimal wrote: »

So tackling a player around the neck is just a yellow ow? The theatrics doesnt matter.

Another foul from Donegal.

He grabbed him around the shoulder/neck area. So yes it is just a yellow.

OldMrBrennan83 · 26-05-2019 3:23pm

Strabanimal wrote: »

55mins and theyre doing this. Truly ugly style of play they have.

If Tyrone played like this theyd be slaughtered with abuse.

Edit: another foul from Donegal

Both teams have been slaughtered with abuse for this football, many times. There's no need for the tinfoil mickey complex.

ArnoldJRimmer · 26-05-2019 3:23pm

Strabanimal wrote: »

55mins and theyre doing this. Truly ugly style of play they have.

If Tyrone played like this theyd be slaughtered with abuse.

Edit: another foul from Donegal

Calm down man, you'll give yourself a heart attack

Strabanimal · 26-05-2019 3:24pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Both teams have been slaughtered with abuse for this football, many times. There's no need for the tinfoil mickey complex.

When is the last time Tyrone have played like this may I ask?

Stoner · 26-05-2019 3:25pm

That free miss from Fermanagh was a huge miss, would have been just one between them

OldMrBrennan83 · 26-05-2019 3:26pm

Strabanimal wrote: »

When is the last time Tyrone have played like this may I ask?

What are you on about? You said Tyrone would get abuse IF they played like this, implying Fermanagh and Donegal don't get abuse which is massively incorrect (how you could even think they don't is beyond any form of reason). Nobody mentioned Tyrones current style of play, not even you. Calm down.

seligehgit · 26-05-2019 3:28pm

Dirkziggler wrote: »

Breaffy Mafia?

Here we go again.

Every time we come up short it's all down to the Breaffy Mafia.:rolleyes:

Nothing to do with our defensive frailties on the day and inability to take our chances.Management were found wanting on the line.

Remember we could have still secured a draw if Conor Loftus had taken that free.

Our great weakness since time eternal is insufficient quality up front.

I'd select Clarke over Hennelly every time but I can see the weaknesses identified in his kickouts.

Strabanimal · 26-05-2019 3:28pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

What are you on about? You said Tyrone would get abuse IF they played like this, implying Fermanagh and Donegal don't get abuse which is massively incorrect (how you could even think they don't is beyond any form of reason). Nobody mentioned Tyrones current style of play, not even you. Calm down.

Apologies. I assumed you meant Tyrone and Donegal. Not Fermanagh and Donegal.

Another foul from Donegal

OldMrBrennan83 · 26-05-2019 3:29pm

Strabanimal wrote: »

Apologies. I assumed you meant Tyrone and Donegal. Not Fermanagh and Donegal.

Another foul from Donegal

Tyrone are one of the teams I'd rather watch these days.

Hammer Archer · 26-05-2019 3:29pm

Strabanimal wrote: »

Apologies. I assumed you meant Tyrone and Donegal. Not Fermanagh and Donegal.

Another foul from Donegal

You don’t need to comment every time Fermanagh are awarded a free.

fullstop · 26-05-2019 3:35pm

Strabanimal wrote: »

55mins and theyre doing this. Truly ugly style of play they have.

If Tyrone played like this theyd be slaughtered with abuse.

Edit: another foul from Donegal

You seem to have a bit of a hard-on for Donegal, James. Any comment on the Fermanagh player slapping Hugh McFadden in the head 3 times as he fell in the first half? Or the multitude of fouls and yellows for them?

TCM · 26-05-2019 3:39pm

Laois (beat Westmeath) easing themselves into the championship. Shows league means nothing

Doctor Zhivago · 26-05-2019 3:39pm

Could they not show Laois v Westmeath before the hurling? Shocking stuff from RTE. All about the bloody hurling.

2019 All Ireland Senior Football Championship *Mod note: Post #1*

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2019 All Ireland Senior Football Championship Mod note: Post #1