Updated GRO

dido2 · 18-07-2014 6:54pm

I have wondered about that too MYOB, there were mothers maiden names along with date of births both of which are used for Financial institutions verification when dealing with a customer, if someone knew my maiden name and rough idea of age then it wouldn't be too hard to get the right details....

CassieManson · 18-07-2014 7:13pm

dido2 wrote: »

I have wondered about that too MYOB, there were mothers maiden names along with date of births both of which are used for Financial institutions verification when dealing with a customer, if someone knew my maiden name and rough idea of age then it wouldn't be too hard to get the right details....

Yes it seemed too good to be true, especially since they refuse to publish the 1926 census!

Its going to be a very long weekend....kinda stuck now...

dido2 · 18-07-2014 7:19pm

Yes thats what I wondered!! I always thought up to 1958 was reasonable.... What I would have loved to see is before 1900 the full details of parents and addresses!!! I'm sure at this stage anyone born before 1900 are long gone!!!

shanew · 18-07-2014 7:23pm

same here re the recent data worries... so the 'temporarily unavailable' message was promising, in that it suggested maybe a technical glitch.

Anyone can research the index books, so thought the captcha and agreement might cover any data protection concerns, as the data should not be visible to search engines

dido2 · 18-07-2014 7:24pm

They might just remove dates of births, and marriages too.....

L1011 · 18-07-2014 7:41pm

Up to 1958 was what was made available to the LDS church in a time a hell of a lot closer *to* 1958 but the index isn't as detailed as this.

I suspect we're going to see the 50/75/100 (death/marriage/birth) rule proposed for certs apply to this also. Which will be rather irritating even if it does provide something to do every January...

mickmackey1 · 18-07-2014 7:51pm

At least I got a lot of pages saved

Waitsian · 18-07-2014 10:29pm

shanew wrote: »

same here re the recent data worries... so the 'temporarily unavailable' message was promising, in that it suggested maybe a technical glitch.

Anyone can research the index books, so thought the captcha and agreement might cover any data protection concerns, as the data should not be visible to search engines

See that's what I don't get! The records aren't top secret. Much like electoral registers they're available to anyone who wants to access them - why should availability on a website make that any different?

Jellybaby1 · 19-07-2014 12:53am

Well that's a turn up for the books all right! Just checked it and the link for Civil Records is gone all right. At the bottom is "Search Online Records' and it offers a list of fourteen links, Griffiths, Soldiers' Wills, NLI, Tithe Applotments, Census, etc. Have they now changed their minds about giving us the Civil Records that we had for oh such a short period of time? I had got a lot of information from it but lots more to do. Rats!

Edit: And I never heard of DHO: Discovery Interface! When I clicked on it this is what I found:
"As of August 31st, 2013, the activities of the Digital Humanities Observatory have ceased. Although DHO:Discovery will continue to be hosted, there will be no further updates to collections or development of new data visualisations. Any queries about this project should be directed to the Royal Irish Academy at info@ria.ie"

CassieManson · 19-07-2014 12:55am

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Well that's a turn up for the books all right! Just checked it and the link for Civil Records is gone all right. At the bottom is "Search Online Records' and it offers a list of fourteen links, Griffiths, Soldiers' Wills, NLI, Tithe Applotments, Census, etc. Have they now changed their minds about giving us the Civil Records that we had for oh such a short period of time? I had got a lot of information from it but lots more to do. Rats!

Edit: And what is DHO: Discovery Interface then?

Hopefully we are worrying for nothing and maybe as we speak they are working to fix the problem!

Jellybaby1 · 19-07-2014 12:58am

Fingers and toes crossed that you are right Cassie!

Waitsian · 19-07-2014 2:00am

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Fingers and toes crossed that you are right Cassie!

Claire Santry is on the case but if you check her latest blog post she, as yet, has no definitive news.

Jellybaby1 · 19-07-2014 2:23pm

Someone make Claire Santry the patron saint of Genealogists!

kitchenkid · 20-07-2014 4:58pm

I suspect there were data privacy concerns.

Hermy · 20-07-2014 7:39pm

kitchenkid wrote: »

I suspect there were data privacy concerns.

Anyone know yet what the likely implications are if it is indeed data privacy concerns.

Jellybaby1 · 20-07-2014 10:12pm

When I heard the records were on the way I thought I might come as far forward as 1950's, and to be truthful they came almost to the present day which was a major surprise, nay, shock! I wonder what the cut off point will be.

dido2 · 20-07-2014 10:36pm

I think at this stage someone saw there was a problem at lunchtime on friday and Said It can wait until monday!!!!!

expectationlost · 21-07-2014 3:05am

Genealogy site left personal data open to identity thieves, says commissioner http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/genealogy-site-left-personal-data-open-to-identity-thieves-says-commissioner-1.1872664

i was surprised to see recent years keyed in my mothers maiden and fathers name it didn't work and thought nothing more of it

shanew · 21-07-2014 7:55am

Hermy wrote: »

Anyone know yet what the likely implications are if it is indeed data privacy concerns.

probably a redacted version with less details, e.g. no date of birth, maiden surname etc for more recent records, or a cut off system like the GRONI and Scotland's people. 100 years for births, 75 for marriages and 50 for deaths.

pinkypinky · 21-07-2014 8:29am

I feel a bit like a bold child who has been caught and only sorry because she was.

How could they not have checked this with the Data Commissioner? New Tanaiste is going to be embarrassed here.

L1011 · 21-07-2014 8:37am

The main issue seems to be the assumption a mother's maiden name is a secure fact by businesses, banks, etc. It never was!

shanew · 21-07-2014 8:38am

MYOB wrote: »

The main issue seems to be the assumption a mother's maiden name is a secure fact by businesses, banks, etc. It never was!

used as a security question by several fin. institution for me...

and date of birth is often asked, even non Gov. bodies - e.g. Liberty insurance

pinkypinky · 21-07-2014 8:42am

It was never secure but certainly is a question asked by organisations. I wish I'd thought of a fake one to use consistently from the beginning!

This article with further analysis is not 100% accurate: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/personal-details-removed-from-site-over-identity-theft-concerns-1.1872741
Mentions data not available online - it is but not quite the same, anyone with a bit of nous and cash could get this information. Certainly this was was quicker to mine the data though. Also mentions the launch of irishgenealogy.ie last year, which is not quite right.

Also no blame attached SW department who are in charge of the GRO, not Deenihan (a now conveniently gone scapegoat).

shanew · 21-07-2014 8:50am

I wonder would a sign up process and a small free, cover the concerns - this would stop random searchers, and linking a credit card for the payment would give at least some security. In data protection terms, might just be considered the equivalent to researching in the GRO, which anyone can do..

It's a bit of a conflict... I'd prefer that my and my family's details were private online, but the genealogy aspect is tempting

shanew · 21-07-2014 8:54am

p.s. I've been to security conferences where our Data Protection Comm. spoke... should have paid more attention. Horrible suspicion that this is going to feature at the next conference as an example of how not to handle personal data!

Hermy · 21-07-2014 9:26am

The words p!ss-up and brewery come to mind!

First off, it's taken the best part of eight months for this site to go live.
Secondly, since going live the website has been a pain to use, between captcha's and log-ins and the lack of cookies to remember your search preferences. And what's worse the church records section is now working in the same frustrating manner.
And now thirdly, the whole thing's been pulled because someone doesn't know one end of the data protection legislation from the other.

At a time when so little money is available how much has been and will be wasted on this mess.

Hermy · 21-07-2014 10:26am

Latest blog post from Claire Santry here.

dido2 · 21-07-2014 10:59am

Does anyone wish they went backwards with the records instead of forwards, like including mothers maiden names back from 1927 to 1864, this to me is what we need in genealogy, it's the older records, the newer ones past 1960 aside from the deaths were of any use really... But they are probably all gone now because there won't be any finances to fix it...

CassieManson · 21-07-2014 11:09am

dido2 wrote: »

Does anyone wish they went backwards with the records instead of forwards, like including mothers maiden names back from 1927 to 1864, this to me is what we need in genealogy, it's the older records, the newer ones past 1960 aside from the deaths were of any use really... But they are probably all gone now because there won't be any finances to fix it...

They seem to be looking at a cut off date of 100 years... which means this website will be of very little use really as most of the data is already on familysearch.

For me the most useful information was the marriage records as this was the only site that showed both parties in one record.
I agree that the post 1958 information was of limited use, I was very surprised to see that this was included at all.

Just really hope they do not limit the data on familysearch...those born in the 1920's, 1930's, 1940s and 1950's may also have data protection concerns

dido2 · 21-07-2014 11:13am

The Marriage info was much better, but at least Find My Past and Ancestry have the possibly spouses on each page so it at least had it down to 4 potential spouses....

Seems Data Protection is all over the place... I'm sure there are loads of ways around the problems but I can't see it being fixed because that would require probably more money to do it and I doubt they'll get it!

Hermy · 21-07-2014 11:18am

dido2 wrote: »

Does anyone wish they went backwards with the records instead of forwards, like including mothers maiden names back from 1927 to 1864, this to me is what we need in genealogy, it's the older records, the newer ones past 1960 aside from the deaths were of any use really... But they are probably all gone now because there won't be any finances to fix it...

I'd have to say the ones past 1960 were a great help to me as I'm just as interested in following all lines forward to living relatives.
Also, for those of us attempting to trace our birth families this resource was gold. At least I got one new lead for someone I'm helping with a trace before it went down.

dido2 · 21-07-2014 11:20am

Thats what I figured Hermy, that the records past 1958 were of benefit to finding living relatives and for those who were trying to trace birth families, which was great....

In terms of normal genealogy though most of us are working backwards from our own parents and grandparents....

Hermy · 21-07-2014 11:27am

Well aside from the adoption stuff, I consider the recent events just as relevant to normal genealogy. As my focus is on all descendants of my g-g-g grandparents this site was fantastic for that purpose despite my many criticisms of how it worked.

desbrook · 21-07-2014 11:28am

dido2 wrote: »

Thats what I figured Hermy, that the records past 1958 were of benefit to finding living relatives and for those who were trying to trace birth families, which was great....

In terms of normal genealogy though most of us are working backwards from our own parents and grandparents....

Yes and no to your last point . In my case it was only partially fulfilling to find out about ancestors . More fun was to be had locating other living decendants in the locality - in some cases 5th cousins who were living less than 5 minutes walk away . Fulfillment also comes from getting in contact with second cousins who have a hazy knowledge of a relationship to a family name and are delighted to get the facts . The new records were (are ??) great for that .

dido2 · 21-07-2014 11:35am

I suppose like everything else we all have our different parts we look for.... I suppose I looked at the newer info as a bonus...

I have made contact with second cousins, and other relatives moving forward all over the world and have enjoyed filling in the blanks with them, but i don't think i'd have used the newer info to track down living people no matter how related I was to them! But everyone is different...

Hermy · 21-07-2014 11:41am

I wouldn't always be looking to make contact with distant living relatives but it is nice to be able fill in those blanks on my charts where they exist. Also, where I've run into brick walls those distant living relatives may be a way of getting around said wall. And just occasionally you find a distant cousin who has a shared interest in the past.

dido2 · 21-07-2014 11:43am

Thats the beauty of genealogy it brings you in contact with other people and also family that sometimes share an interest in knowing where they came from and it's a huge help to find out more about the family to have more family lines involved...

I would love to know though what will happen with the records, will they just remain off line or will they be able to pick a date to display from...

AnCiotog · 21-07-2014 12:20pm

I'm so disappointed that it's gone. I was using it just last week and found a family secret I never knew about. and had filled in some blanks on dates too. Grrrrrrrrrrr!

L1011 · 21-07-2014 12:29pm

The mother's maiden name back further managed to let me fill in quite a few cases where I had nothing after birth or the 1901 census for girls as they'd disappear in to the ether once married due to the surname change. Find kids with that maiden name; look for a family on the 1901/1911 census with those kids names and a correct first name for the mother, then try find a matching marriage for both of them. Worked extremely well with the more obscure surnames - but I wasn't finished dammit. They should be able to just backup and then truncate the database tables to records older than 100 years as an interim measure.

Waitsian · 21-07-2014 12:49pm

The GRONI website records rules (100, 75, 50) works very well and other than those seeking living relatives is quite sufficient for genealogical purposes. However, full details our provided, it isn't just an index (at a small cost of course).

Why can't the records for the Republic be the same? Instead of having to order photocopies at 4 Euro each through the post, couldn't we access each cert via the Irishgenealogy.ie website for a fee - for example, 2 Euro? Or even, dare I say it, free?

pinkypinky · 21-07-2014 2:05pm

I'd be happy to have a similar system to GRONI. My understanding is that this requires a change in legislation, which is scheduled under the Civil Registration Amendment Act 2014.

Jellybaby1 · 21-07-2014 2:06pm

I just wanted to get to the 40's and 50's which I did for quite a few records. I'm not really interested in anything more recent. I will leave that to the genealogists of the future, if there ever be any in my family.

Waitsian · 21-07-2014 2:30pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

I'd be happy to have a similar system to GRONI. My understanding is that this requires a change in legislation, which is scheduled under the Civil Registration Amendment Act 2014.

As was alluded to by the Tánaiste, including the viewing of the actual certs themselves. Maybe the government can get that through the Dáil as soon as possible.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=26658&&CatID=59

Waitsian · 21-07-2014 2:38pm

http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2014/07/tanaiste-publishes-civil-registration-amendment-bill-2014/?cat=78

The relevant section:

Finally the Bill will provide for access to historical registers of life events to allow on line access via the Department of Arts Heritage and the Gaeltacht’s genealogical website to important information regarding our heritage. The material which will be available is as follows:

Births more than 100 years;

Deaths more than 50 years;

Marriages more than 75 years.

The Tánaiste said “The Government recently launched its Irish Genealogy website which allows for online access to the indexes to the registers of the General Register Office Civil Records. This represented the first big step in the online availability of historical records which is essential for the development of modern genealogical services. This Bill provides for the next big step which is to make available online births more than 100 years old, marriages more than 75 years old and deaths more than 50 years old. I look forward to this phase being made available which will allow us and future generations to access our important information from our past.”

I don't know enough about Dáil procedure to know how long it will take.

desbrook · 21-07-2014 4:13pm

Well the new records led me to a discover a new second cousin of mine and possibly more. The lady is about 70 now. She told me that a fortnight before she was at a local graveyard with her grandchildren visiting HER grandmother's grave. She passed by other graves which she knew to be of her grandmother's maiden name. She would have loved to have been able to explain to the children who exactly the people were . By me getting in touch she now can. In fact all six of her grandmother's siblings are buried in that graveyard as well as the mother and father. All info she would never have known only for these new records becoming available ( and Facebook admittedly) .

So glad I got in early. Sorry though because there was more contacts to make

Jellybaby1 · 24-07-2014 12:37am

I'm still nervous, but pleased to see the message just now:

"Civil Records Search temporarily unavailable - further update will be provided"

mickmackey1 · 24-07-2014 12:41am

Surely they can just remove the day and month while leaving the rest.

Jellybaby1 · 24-07-2014 12:44am

Several options for them already mentioned here by others for those with the power. Have to wonder why it hadn't been thought out properly in the first place. Anyway we've all been weeping and wringing our hands and there's naught else to do I suppose but wait, patiently!

I really like the word 'temporarily'.

kitchenkid · 24-07-2014 7:36am

Wouldn't bank on it coming back. shame.

desbrook · 24-07-2014 8:33am

How much did the project cost?

( lights blue touchpaper and runs!)

Updated GRO

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