False rape accusation...who would you believe?

One eyed Jack · 21-03-2017 1:31pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

if we started cutting out the false accusations , we could start giving propper 15-20 years to rapists, like they deserve

They're two completely unrelated offences. A false allegation of rape would be an example of 'perverting the course of justice' which has the possibility in some countries, and depending upon the circumstances of the case, of carrying a life sentence.

Eric Cartman · 21-03-2017 1:51pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

They're two completely unrelated offences. A false allegation of rape would be an example of 'perverting the course of justice' which has the possibility in some countries, and depending upon the circumstances of the case, of carrying a life sentence.

true, but we're a country of precedent, if we could start handing out 'perverting the course of justice' in rape cases 15 years, after a few convictions that would become the expectation.

My point really was though , that the above user had said a rapist doesnt get 15 here, I would be of the opinion that because of false allegations cropping up, judges are hesitant to hand down sentences as above, so a few questionable rape cases get convictions of 2, 3, 5 years and as above, precedent sets that as the standard. If you clean up the false allegations, judges can start handing out 15+ stretches with confidence, it becomes the norm, offenders are more afraid of offending because of the severity, potential re-offenders are locked up longer, false accusers are a lot less likely to accuse,

end result is more safety for people from being sexually assaulted / raped, more safety for people from being falsely accused and ruining their lives. The only people who come off worse are liars and actual rapists.

Little CuChulainn · 21-03-2017 5:35pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

if we started cutting out the false accusations , we could start giving propper 15-20 years to rapists, like they deserve

How are you connecting those two things?

please helpThank YOU · 21-03-2017 5:35pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

true, but we're a country of precedent, if we could start handing out 'perverting the course of justice' in rape cases 15 years, after a few convictions that would become the expectation.

My point really was though , that the above user had said a rapist doesnt get 15 here, I would be of the opinion that because of false allegations cropping up, judges are hesitant to hand down sentences as above, so a few questionable rape cases get convictions of 2, 3, 5 years and as above, precedent sets that as the standard. If you clean up the false allegations, judges can start handing out 15+ stretches with confidence, it becomes the norm, offenders are more afraid of offending because of the severity, potential re-offenders are locked up longer, false accusers are a lot less likely to accuse,

end result is more safety for people from being sexually assaulted / raped, more safety for people from being falsely accused and ruining their lives. The only people who come off worse are liars and actual rapists.

I agree 100 per cent in your post. long prison sentence for rapist 15 to 20 years in Jail . and 15 to 20 years in Jail for Men/Women who make false rape accusations long prison sentence for both of the most serious heinous crimes.

One eyed Jack · 21-03-2017 6:30pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

true, but we're a country of precedent, if we could start handing out 'perverting the course of justice' in rape cases 15 years, after a few convictions that would become the expectation.

It wouldn't, as they're two completely separate and distinct offences, completely unrelated to one another.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

My point really was though , that the above user had said a rapist doesnt get 15 here, I would be of the opinion that because of false allegations cropping up, judges are hesitant to hand down sentences as above, so a few questionable rape cases get convictions of 2, 3, 5 years and as above, precedent sets that as the standard. If you clean up the false allegations, judges can start handing out 15+ stretches with confidence, it becomes the norm, offenders are more afraid of offending because of the severity, potential re-offenders are locked up longer, false accusers are a lot less likely to accuse,

One has nothing to do with the other. False allegations are so incredibly rare that they aren't just 'popping up'. You hear about one or two in the media only because of how rare they are, just like you'll only ever hear about a handful of cases where a person has been convicted of rape, again because the details of the case usually make for good tabloid fodder. There are quite literally numerous reasons why the maximum sentence for a conviction of rape is never handed down. One of the most obvious ones is simply the cost of incarceration is too great. Judges sentencing decisions are informed by sentencing guidelines, the circumstances of the case, and their own discretion. That's why cases like this, this and this, make headlines. People btw who actually commit rape, they're never afraid of the possibility of a jail sentence, no matter how long it could be, because they never plan on getting caught. Most of the time they're actually banking on the person being too reluctant to make a complaint.

It should be noted too that just because a person may be found 'not guilty' by a jury, it doesn't at all necessarily follow that the complainants allegation was false. It means the case presented by the prosecution didn't satisfy the conditions of the burden of proof required to prove the allegations against the defendant who always has the presumption of innocence until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Prosecuting someone for perverting the course of justice would require that the prosecution meet the same standard of proof required, because again the defendant would be presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

end result is more safety for people from being sexually assaulted / raped, more safety for people from being falsely accused and ruining their lives. The only people who come off worse are liars and actual rapists.

The end result would be that even more people would be afraid to make a complaint for fear of being convicted of perverting the course of justice, so it would mean the exact opposite of your claim above.

please helpThank YOU · 21-03-2017 6:56pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It wouldn't, as they're two completely separate and distinct offences, completely unrelated to one another.

One has nothing to do with the other. False allegations are so incredibly rare that they aren't just 'popping up'. You hear about one or two in the media only because of how rare they are, just like you'll only ever hear about a handful of cases where a person has been convicted of rape, again because the details of the case usually make for good tabloid fodder. There are quite literally numerous reasons why the maximum sentence for a conviction of rape is never handed down. One of the most obvious ones is simply the cost of incarceration is too great. Judges sentencing decisions are informed by sentencing guidelines, the circumstances of the case, and their own discretion. That's why cases like this, this and this, make headlines. People btw who actually commit rape, they're never afraid of the possibility of a jail sentence, no matter how long it could be, because they never plan on getting caught. Most of the time they're actually banking on the person being too reluctant to make a complaint.

It should be noted too that just because a person may be found 'not guilty' by a jury, it doesn't at all necessarily follow that the complainants allegation was false. It means the case presented by the prosecution didn't satisfy the conditions of the burden of proof required to prove the allegations against the defendant who always has the presumption of innocence until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Prosecuting someone for perverting the course of justice would require that the prosecution meet the same standard of proof required, because again the defendant would be presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

The end result would be that even more people would be afraid to make a complaint for fear of being convicted of perverting the course of justice, so it would mean the exact opposite of your claim above.

you say in your post that false allegation are so incredibly rare? can you back that up with facts? because I went on the central statistics office web site on recorded crime Offences by Garda division . type of Offences . .and there is not one record on file from the year 2003 to 2016. section 12 of the criminal law act 1976 any person who a knowingly makes a false report or statement. so what that is tell me our any one who looks at this that no person in Ireland has made a complaint to Garda in 13 years that a Man/Women has made false rape accustion. ?

One eyed Jack · 21-03-2017 7:14pm

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

you say in your post that false allegation are so incredibly rare? can you back that up with facts? because I went on the central statistics office web site on recorded crime Offences by Garda division . type of Offences . .and there is not one record on file from the year 2003 to 2016. section 12 of the criminal law act 1976 any person who a knowingly makes a false report or statement. so what that is tell me our any one who looks at this that no person in Ireland has made a complaint to Garda in 13 years that a Man/Women has made false rape accustion. ?

You just backed it up with facts yourself?

Little CuChulainn · 21-03-2017 7:14pm

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

you say in your post that false allegation are so incredibly rare? can you back that up with facts? because I went on the central statistics office web site on recorded crime Offences by Garda division . type of Offences . .and there is not one record on file from the year 2003 to 2016. section 12 of the criminal law act 1976 any person who a knowingly makes a false report or statement. so what that is tell me our any one who looks at this that no person in Ireland has made a complaint to Garda in 13 years that a Man/Women has made false rape accustion. ?

Is that even a category on its own? Even a 10 second Google search shows people being prosecuted for giving false statements. You're trying to fit the facts around your opinion.

Here we go · 21-03-2017 7:19pm

How do you decide a false claim from ature claim that the prosicution couldn't prove as far as I'm aware the % of sucsesful convictions is small

Eric Cartman · 21-03-2017 7:26pm

Here we go wrote: »

How do you decide a false claim from ature claim that the prosicution couldn't prove as far as I'm aware the % of sucsesful convictions is small

The conviction rate is small as the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt, as would a false claim be. Some people saying just because a conviction didnt happen doesnt mean the rape didnt, by the same token a lot of cases cant be proved false beyond reasonable doubt so thats dropped too. False accusations are even harder to prove as bar concrete evidence like the accuser telling a third party who comes forward or an email / text etc.. its almost impossible to prove they just made it up, especially in the common cases where both parties agree that the intercourse did take place.

Look at ched evans, the chaps life is still in tatters even though he's innocent, but trying to secure a conviction for a false claim that lands her with a custodial sentence is impossible

One eyed Jack · 21-03-2017 7:50pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The conviction rate is small as the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt, as would a false claim be. Some people saying just because a conviction didnt happen doesnt mean the rape didnt, by the same token a lot of cases cant be proved false beyond reasonable doubt so thats dropped too.

I don't understand what you're saying here?

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Look at ched evans, the chaps life is still in tatters even though he's innocent, but trying to secure a conviction for a false claim that lands her with a custodial sentence is impossible

This is worth a read, and addresses both your points above -

10 myths busted about the Ched Evans case

1. So Ched Evans has been proved innocent, right?

Wrong. You’d be forgiven for thinking this, given that it was in the prepared statement read out by his solicitor, but Ched Evans has not “demonstrated his innocence”. That is not how our criminal justice system operates. It is not a means by which the truth of a situation or event is conclusively and fully determined. Rather the jury are asked one simple question – are you sure that the prosecution has proved its case beyond reasonable doubt (or, as juries are commonly instructed, so that you are sure)? “Not guilty” means just that. The jury were not sure that he was guilty. They may have decided that he was totally, utterly innocent, but we don’t know. All we know is that they considered the evidence, and were less than sure of his guilt. As I tell juries in every closing speech – if you think the defendant probably did it, he’s still not guilty.

2. Well at the very least, the verdict means that the complainant has lied, surely?

No. Absolutely not. A not guilty verdict in most cases is insufficient to safely infer that the jury have concluded that a complainant lied (as opposed to the jury not being sure one way or the other), but in this case the facts suggest the opposite. As the Court of Appeal made clear in its judgment allowing the appeal, X has never asserted that she was raped. She has always simply maintained that she had no memory of what happened. It was the prosecution case – the case theory of the Crown Prosecution Service – that she was raped. The defence case was based not on the “usual” he said/ she said dispute over consent, but rather he said/ she can’t remember. There is absolutely no safe basis for suggesting she has lied, or, to quell the more hysterical calls, that she should be prosecuted on the basis of Evans’ acquittal.

please helpThank YOU · 21-03-2017 9:02pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Is that even a category on its own? Even a 10 second Google search shows people being prosecuted for giving false statements. You're trying to fit the facts around your opinion.

Yes that is a category on its own. section 12 of the criminal law act 1976 any person who a knowingly makes a false report or statement. central statistics office shows 71 type of offence homicide to rape and sexual assault etc. from 2003 to 2016 so the what that tells us the government keep no records files of false rape accusation . because I know of at least two such complaints that were made to garda in 2012 for false rape accusation and now there is no records off them?

please helpThank YOU · 21-03-2017 9:09pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You just backed it up with facts yourself?

but how do you explain this. I know for a fact that two people made complaints/statements to garda in 2012 about false rape accusation and now there is no records of them? .

Little CuChulainn · 21-03-2017 9:34pm

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Yes that is a category on its own. section 12 of the criminal law act 1976 any person who a knowingly makes a false report or statement. central statistics office shows 71 type of offence homicide to rape and sexual assault etc. from 2003 to 2016 so the what that tells us the government keep no records files of false rape accusation . because I know of at least two such complaints that were made to garda in 2012 for false rape accusation and now there is no records off them?

Two conflicting answers to one question. Does the CSO present section 12 in its own category? From your answer I'm guessing it doesn't. I certainly can't see it. Your logic is the equivalent of looking at a sign that says "Everyone Welcome" and thinking you aren't allowed because your name isn't specifically mentioned. Just because breaches of section 12 of the Criminal Law Act aren't individually listed does not mean they don't exist or aren't recorded. The mere fact that there are multiple media reports of people being prosecuted for giving false statements should tell you your logic is flawed.

Here we go · 21-03-2017 9:40pm

I'm sure everyone agrees rape and false accusations are both terrible crimes. And the high profile cases that are reported are usually the ones with silly sentences. I.e. One guy was given a suspended cos he paid the girl compensation the incident in drumcondra, or the times women admit to false alligators and revive zero punishment. Both need to have tougher sentences but it needs to be done in away that dosnt discorge real victims from coming forward something that is reportedly already the majority and to make it harder for victims can't really be an option

please helpThank YOU · 21-03-2017 10:04pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Two conflicting answers to one question. Does the CSO present section 12 in its own category? From your answer I'm guessing it doesn't. I certainly can't see it. Your logic is the equivalent of looking at a sign that says "Everyone Welcome" and thinking you aren't allowed because your name isn't specifically mentioned. Just because breaches of section 12 of the Criminal Law Act aren't individually listed does not mean they don't exist or aren't recorded. The mere fact that there are multiple media reports of people being prosecuted for giving false statements should tell you your logic is flawed.

what I am trying to say it looks like to any one looking for facts our evidence of false rape accusation. its like it does not happen. but you when go for facts our evidence of rape there all there for 13 years. for all to see. example of a case of false rape accusation Brazilian women accused of making a false rape accusations in Dublin she was in court her name Regina De Oliveira from Phibsboro Dublin. she was in court 17 September 2014. but there is no record on of this on CSO .like the two complaints I know of false rape accusations made to Garda. and yes you 100 per cent right there is a lot of news papers stories of Men/Women making false rape accusation that is true what you say and I totally agree with you.

Little CuChulainn · 21-03-2017 10:14pm

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

what I am trying to say it looks like to any one looking for facts our evidence of false rape accusation. its like it does not happen. but you when go for facts our evidence of rape there all there for 13 years. for all to see. example of a case of false rape accusation Brazilian women accused of making a false rape accusations in Dublin she was in court her name Regina De Oliveira from Phibsboro Dublin. she was in court 17 September 2014. but there is no record on of this on CSO .like the two complaints I know of false rape accusations made to Garda. and yes you 100 per cent right there is a lot of news papers stories of Men/Women making false rape accusation that is true what you say and I totally agree with you.

There is a record of it on the CSO, it's just not given an individual category in the published figures, it's included with other figures. i don't think rape is even given an individual category, it's included with sexual offences isn't it? You're acting like there is some kind of conspiracy to hide the figures. Have you written to the CSO and asked for the ones you are looking for?

please helpThank YOU · 21-03-2017 10:33pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

There is a record of it on the CSO, it's just not given an individual category in the published figures, it's included with other figures. i don't think rape is even given an individual category, it's included with sexual offences isn't it? You're acting like there is some kind of conspiracy to hide the figures. Have you written to the CSO and asked for the ones you are looking for?

Answer to your first question rape and sexual Offence are under the same Offence under the CSO. conspiracy ? there is 100 per cent sum question for the CSO Central statistics office to answer in why the published data for the last 13 years of rape and sexual assaults. but do not published data for false rape accusation? so how do we know how small our large false rape accusation are if the data is not put up on the CSO ?

Little CuChulainn · 21-03-2017 10:41pm

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Answer to your first question rape and sexual Offence are under the same Offence under the CSO. conspiracy ? there is 100 per cent sum question for the CSO Central statistics office to answer in why the published data for the last 13 years of rape and sexual assaults. but do not published data for false rape accusation? so how do we know how small our large false rape accusation are if the data is not put up on the CSO ?

There is no charge specifically for a false rape allegations. It's a general charge for all false allegations and false statements. In the CSO figures it's in a sub category of perverting the course of justice.

please helpThank YOU · 21-03-2017 11:00pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

There is no charge specifically for a false rape allegations. It's a general charge for all false allegations and false statements. In the CSO figures it's in a sub category of perverting the course of justice.

what you are saying in this post is very interesting there is no charge specifically for a false rape allegations.? CSO figures its in a sub category of perverting the course of justice. so there is no break down of how many false rape accusations happen in Ireland from 2003 to 2016. so how can so many people in media Organisations rape crisis centre say that false rape accusations are so rare when the do not know this be a fact?

iptba · 21-03-2017 11:28pm

I am no expert on statistics for false accusations. But here is a scholarly article that looked at the issue:

From:

Gross, B. (2008). False rape allegations: An assault on justice. Annals of the
American Psychotherapy Association, 11, 45–49.

Crying Rape

Although there is no doubt that false rape allegations occur, it is extremely difficult to determine what percentage of rape reports is intentionally false. This is due to many factors, including jurisdictional variation in definition, criteria, and reporting practices, as well as the fact that not all rapes are reported. Although the FBI had set 8% as the average rate of false (actually, unfounded) accusations during the late 1990s, there is remarkable variation in the estimates of false allegations of rape found in the literature (Kanin, 1994; Epstein, 2005). A review of those studies on false rape accusations conducted between 1968 and 2005 showed a percentage range from 1–90% (Rumney, 2006).

Very little formal research has been conducted on the prevalence of false allegations of rape. One study looked at the 109 cases of forcible rape that were disposed of in one small midwestern town between 1978 and 1987 (Kanin, 1994). The given town was specifically selected for study because the police department used a uniquely objective and thorough protocol when investigating rape complaints. Among other procedural safeguards, officers did not have the discretion to drop rape investigations if they concluded the complaint was “suspect” or unfounded. Every rape accusation had to be thoroughly investigated and included offering a polygraph to both the accuser and the accused. Cases were only determined to be false if and when the accuser admitted that no rape occurred.

The researchers further investigated those cases that the police, through their investigation, had ultimately determined were “false” or fabricated. During the follow-up investigation, the complainants held fast to their assertion that their rape allegation had been true, despite being told they would face penalties for filing a false report. As a result, 41% of all of the forcible rape complaints were found to be false. To further this study, a similar analysis was conducted on all of the forcible rape complaints filed at two large midwestern public universities over a 3-year period. Here, where polygraphs were not offered as part of the investigatory procedure, it was found that 50% of the complaints were false.

Charles P. McDowell, a researcher in the United States Air Force Special Studies Division, studied the 1,218 reports of rape that were made between 1980 and 1984 on Air Force bases throughout the world (McDowell, 1985). Of those, 460 were found to be “proven” allegations either because the “overwhelming preponderance of the evidence” strongly supported the allegation or because there was a conviction in the case. Another 212 of the total reports were found to be “disproved” as the alleged victim convincingly admitted the complaint was a “hoax” at some point during the initial investigation. The researchers then investigated the 546 remaining or “unresolved” rape allegations including having the accusers submit to a polygraph. Twenty-seven percent (27%) of these complainants admitted they had fabricated their accusation just before taking the polygraph or right after they failed the test. (It should be noted that whenever there was any doubt, the unresolved case was re-classified as a “proven” rape.) Combining this 27% with the initial 212 “disproved” cases, it was determined that approximately 45% of the total rape allegations were false.

Unfortunately, like the two studies presented here, the empirical studies that exist on the frequency of false rape allegations are sparse in number and have notable limitations. Small sample sizes and non-representative samples preclude generalizability. Regardless, the mere number of publicized incidents of false accusations of rape over the last two decades indicates not only a need for further investigation into the problem, but a better understanding of how to identify such cases.

Eric Cartman · 22-03-2017 8:21am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't understand what you're saying here?

This is worth a read, and addresses both your points above -

10 myths busted about the Ched Evans case

1. So Ched Evans has been proved innocent, right?

Wrong. You’d be forgiven for thinking this, given that it was in the prepared statement read out by his solicitor, but Ched Evans has not “demonstrated his innocence”. That is not how our criminal justice system operates. It is not a means by which the truth of a situation or event is conclusively and fully determined. Rather the jury are asked one simple question – are you sure that the prosecution has proved its case beyond reasonable doubt (or, as juries are commonly instructed, so that you are sure)? “Not guilty” means just that. The jury were not sure that he was guilty. They may have decided that he was totally, utterly innocent, but we don’t know. All we know is that they considered the evidence, and were less than sure of his guilt. As I tell juries in every closing speech – if you think the defendant probably did it, he’s still not guilty.

2. Well at the very least, the verdict means that the complainant has lied, surely?

No. Absolutely not. A not guilty verdict in most cases is insufficient to safely infer that the jury have concluded that a complainant lied (as opposed to the jury not being sure one way or the other), but in this case the facts suggest the opposite. As the Court of Appeal made clear in its judgment allowing the appeal, X has never asserted that she was raped. She has always simply maintained that she had no memory of what happened. It was the prosecution case – the case theory of the Crown Prosecution Service – that she was raped. The defence case was based not on the “usual” he said/ she said dispute over consent, but rather he said/ she can’t remember. There is absolutely no safe basis for suggesting she has lied, or, to quell the more hysterical calls, that she should be prosecuted on the basis of Evans’ acquittal.

That blog post is very biased , all I got from that was "they just couldnt prove he did it, shes completely innocent in all of this" when the reality is he's innocent and if she just "couldnt remember" there wouldnt even be a complaint that mandated ched being in court.

You seem to be getting confused a lot by my , what I would consider are easy to follow posts, considering that blog post link and your replys, Id like to ask one question to gauge your view ,

Do you think there is a higher percentage of rapists who did do it getting off in court than there are false accusations.

One eyed Jack · 22-03-2017 6:06pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

That blog post is very biased , all I got from that was "they just couldnt prove he did it, shes completely innocent in all of this" when the reality is he's innocent and if she just "couldnt remember" there wouldnt even be a complaint that mandated ched being in court.

You have to remember that this girl didn't make any allegation of rape against Ched Evans, so there was no false allegation made, which makes the Ched Evans case irrelevant to what we're talking about here which is people who do make false allegations of rape.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

You seem to be getting confused a lot by my , what I would consider are easy to follow posts, considering that blog post link and your replys, Id like to ask one question to gauge your view ,

Do you think there is a higher percentage of rapists who did do it getting off in court than there are false accusations.

Well the reason I'm confused by your posts is that while they're easy to read, it's hard to make out why you're putting rape in the same sentence as false allegations of rape. They're two very different things, and I'm just confused as to why you can't actually see that - they're completely independent of each other and one has no bearing on the other.

I can't give a definitive answer to your question and I couldn't even begin to speculate. "I don't know" about the only honest answer I can give you, because as trite as it is to say it, but you might recognise the quote -

"It doesn't matter what I believe. It only matters what I can prove!"*

And it's particularly relevant in a Court of Law.

*A Few Good Men

pilly · 24-03-2017 1:02am

And what if the truth is that your friend or family are guilty.

Are you saying you'd stick by someone no matter what the proof?

please helpThank YOU · 24-03-2017 2:11am

pilly wrote: »

And what if the truth is that your friend or family are guilty.

Are you saying you'd stick by someone no matter what the proof?

So would you betray your true friend by surmise your friend would you like your friend to betrayed you? . would you Betaryal your friend over lies and false rape accusations this could happen you our to sum body you love and would you like if people friends turned there backs on you ?. and your 100 per cent innocent how would you feel ?. what would your friend think of you if your turned your back on them ?. and there 100 per cent innocent of any crime .? so the question for you is sum has it out for you and there are pure evil that the would make up false rape accusation our any other type of false accusations?. and next you tell your true friend say you know them 25 years just say and next the Dissociate from them you?. second quess your true friend. them and next years later all it all comes out the truth with evidence proving their innocence and its to late you turned your back on your friend for 25 years that to me is as bad as the false rape accusations ?.

Pat Mustard · 24-03-2017 3:22pm

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

So would you betray your true friend by surmise your friend would you like your friend to betrayed you? would you Betaryal your friend over lies and false rape accusations this could happen you our to sum body you love and would you like if people friends turned there backs on you,? and your 100 per cent innocent how would you feel ? what would your friend think of you if your turned your back on them.? and there 100 per cent innocent of any crime? so the question for you is sum has it out for you and there are pure evil that the would make up false rape accusation our any other type of false accusations. and next you tell your true friend say you know them 25 years just say and next the Dissociate from them you.? second quess your true friend. them and next years later all it all comes out the truth with evidence proving their innocence and its to late you turned your back on your friend for 25 years that to me is as bad as the false rape accusations?

Mod:

Your previous posts show that you have the capability of posting properly, when you choose to do so.

Therefore, you have made a deliberate choice to post without using proper syntax or punctuation. This is not acceptable on a discussion forum.

You can either post properly or else don't post here at all.

Please do not reply to this post on the thread.

please helpThank YOU · 24-03-2017 5:10pm

pilly wrote: »

And what if the truth is that your friend or family are guilty.

Are you saying you'd stick by someone no matter what the proof?

and what if the truth is that your friend or family are guilty?.
Garda Investigation Process Can take up to Nine moths to over One year our more Gathering evidence. So your friend our my friend is in no mans land. Sum people the min the hear just the hearsay of false rape accusations our other false accusations the will never speak to you again. You are now a Outcast of Society all your of friends believe the hearsay evidence and the all Rejected you. Next a year later the Garda Investigate is over and there is no Basis to the rape accusation our other type of false accusation? Now your friend is proven to be innocent by the Garda. but you our I did not stand by them in there time of need. That is what you call JUDAS FRIENDS.

pilly · 24-03-2017 5:25pm

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

and what if the truth is that your friend or family are guilty?.
Garda Investigation Process Can take up to Nine moths to over One year our more Gathering evidence. So your friend our my friend is in no mans land. Sum people the min the hear just the hearsay of false rape accusations our other false accusations the will never speak to you again. You are now a Outcast of Society all your of friends believe the hearsay evidence and the all Rejected you. Next a year later the Garda Investigate is over and there is no Basis to the rape accusation our other type of false accusation? Now your friend is proven to be innocent by the Garda. but you our I did not stand by them in there time of need. That is what you call JUDAS FRIENDS.

Sorry, I have to agree with the moderator. It's becoming too tiring to read your posts.

please helpThank YOU · 24-03-2017 7:27pm

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

and what if the truth is that your friend or family are guilty?.
Garda Investigation Process Can take up to Nine moths to over One year our more Gathering evidence. So your friend our my friend is in no mans land. Sum people the min the hear just the hearsay of false rape accusations our other false accusations the will never speak to you again. You are now a Outcast of Society all your of friends believe the hearsay evidence and the all Rejected you. Next a year later the Garda Investigate is over and there is no Basis to the rape accusation our other type of false accusation? Now your friend is proven to be innocent by the Garda. but you our I did not stand by them in there time of need. That is what you call JUDAS FRIENDS.

Do We ever think for one minute our Friends will betray us?.

pilly · 24-03-2017 9:48pm

Now you're answering yourself?

ancapailldorcha · 24-03-2017 10:15pm

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

and what if the truth is that your friend or family are guilty?.
Garda Investigation Process Can take up to Nine moths to over One year our more Gathering evidence. So your friend our my friend is in no mans land. Sum people the min the hear just the hearsay of false rape accusations our other false accusations the will never speak to you again. You are now a Outcast of Society all your of friends believe the hearsay evidence and the all Rejected you. Next a year later the Garda Investigate is over and there is no Basis to the rape accusation our other type of false accusation? Now your friend is proven to be innocent by the Garda. but you our I did not stand by them in there time of need. That is what you call JUDAS FRIENDS.

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Do We ever think for one minute our Friends will betray us?.

Do not post in this thread again.

One eyed Jack · 26-03-2017 5:18pm

The awkward moment -

The alt-right rallied around a white woman who said 3 black men raped her. She lied.

"An 18-year-old white woman has been arrested after confessing to falsely accusing three black men of sexually assaulting her — but that wasn't before white nationalists on Twitter and Reddit used the alleged incident to fuel their anti-black rhetoric.

According to a statement from the Denison, Texas, police department, Breana Harmon Talbott burst into a church on March 8 visibly injured and wearing just a shirt, bra and underwear alleging that she had been kidnapped and raped in the woods by three masked black men. Talbott said one of the men held her down while the other two raped her.

After giving police her account of the alleged crimes, Talbott went to the hospital and authorities launched a full investigation, collecting evidence and searching the area were the supposed assault occurred.

When news of Talbott's alleged assault made its way to media outlets, members of the alt-right and those with white nationalist leanings latched onto it, using it as evidence of a rash of black-on-white crime and accusing the "liberal" media of intentionally ignoring the story."

Story continues in the link, but I don't imagine we'll ever have cases like the above here in Ireland at least.

Eric Cartman · 26-03-2017 5:24pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The awkward moment -

The alt-right rallied around a white woman who said 3 black men raped her. She lied.

"An 18-year-old white woman has been arrested after confessing to falsely accusing three black men of sexually assaulting her — but that wasn't before white nationalists on Twitter and Reddit used the alleged incident to fuel their anti-black rhetoric.

According to a statement from the Denison, Texas, police department, Breana Harmon Talbott burst into a church on March 8 visibly injured and wearing just a shirt, bra and underwear alleging that she had been kidnapped and raped in the woods by three masked black men. Talbott said one of the men held her down while the other two raped her.

After giving police her account of the alleged crimes, Talbott went to the hospital and authorities launched a full investigation, collecting evidence and searching the area were the supposed assault occurred.

When news of Talbott's alleged assault made its way to media outlets, members of the alt-right and those with white nationalist leanings latched onto it, using it as evidence of a rash of black-on-white crime and accusing the "liberal" media of intentionally ignoring the story."

Story continues in the link, but I don't imagine we'll ever have cases like the above here in Ireland at least.

that site is just as bad as the alt right :

What's worse, though, is that Talbott's actions perpetuated a long history of white people — and specifically white women — making false accusations against black men. In fact, the Root has rounded up a whole list of some of the most famous instances of white people lying about crimes, including a case in 1931 involving two white women falsely accusing nine black men of sexual assault. Even after one of the women admitted her friend had fabricated the crimes, many of the men were sentenced to jail time anyway.

And, of course, Talbott's isn't the only contemporary case of white women falsely accusing black men. In October, Michigan resident Leiha Ann-Sue Artman fabricated a story similar to Talbott's, claiming four black men kidnapped, raped and beat her. She was sentenced to one year in prison.

thats just a paragraph of "boo white people"

One eyed Jack · 26-03-2017 5:40pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

that site is just as bad as the alt right :

thats just a paragraph of "boo white people"

Yeah I'll be honest, the use of the phrase "alt-right" at this stage is a good indication that what you're about to read should be taken with a pinch of salt, but the story itself does point to how quick some people are to use stories like this to fuel their own particular agenda. It's even odd that as one of the most vocal critics of people who make false allegations of rape, you skipped over that to point out how the article appeared to be more interested in demonising white people!

I shouldn't laugh but honestly, come on, how did you miss the point that a girl made a false allegation? The reason I thought it was an interesting article was because of the amount of identity politics behind people's biases involved.

Eric Cartman · 26-03-2017 7:11pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Yeah I'll be honest, the use of the phrase "alt-right" at this stage is a good indication that what you're about to read should be taken with a pinch of salt, but the story itself does point to how quick some people are to use stories like this to fuel their own particular agenda. It's even odd that as one of the most vocal critics of people who make false allegations of rape, you skipped over that to point out how the article appeared to be more interested in demonising white people!

I shouldn't laugh but honestly, come on, how did you miss the point that a girl made a false allegation? The reason I thought it was an interesting article was because of the amount of identity politics behind people's biases involved.

Ohh its complete identity politics,
white supremacists are dumb, we know that, luckily for those lads her lie was found out.

I think if the race of the alleged perpetrator influences your views on who you'd likely believe then you have bigger problems to deal with.

I don't think I missed the point, but referencing any 'fake news' type site is a bad idea. I don't even know if any of that story is even real, when you have to throw in paragraphs like that, it makes me doubt the entire thing. But taking that potentially real / not real story (any other sources on it ?) at face value, the girl was wrong to file a false claim, and the white supremacists were jumping on it to further an agenda, which in the case of rape, should never be used as a vehicle for your own prejudices.

LouisSmith1 · 27-03-2017 5:11pm

I think that if it is proven that the girl made a false accusation she is the one that should go to prison.

NoahL · 27-03-2017 5:20pm

LouisSmith1 wrote: »

I think that if it is proven that the girl made a false accusation she is the one that should go to prison.

I agree

iptba · 07-07-2017 2:34pm

(UK)

Liar cried rape 15 times

http://e-edition.metro.news/html5/reader/production/default.aspx?pubname=&edid=8a68b39e-bbce-43c6-bf16-b33ecbcdb886&pnum=1

The heading says she is behind bars but I don't see that in the story.

---
http://www.independent.co.uk/News/uk/crime/woman-convicted-fake-rape-sex-assault-claims-15-men-jemma-beale-hounslow-a7828196.html

iptba · 25-08-2017 3:32pm

A long sentence seems fair:

Woman who made series of false rape claims jailed for 10 years
'You are a very, very convincing liar and you enjoy being seen as a victim,' judge tells her

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/woman-false-rape-claims-series-jailed-london-jemma-beale-a7911486.html

Outlaw Pete · 19-09-2017 4:17pm

Pathathic sentence for this one:

Crime student lied that taxi driver raped her after he refused kebab-soaked money

A student who wanted to be a police officer has been jailed after she lied that she had been raped by a taxi driver.

Sophie Pointon left the taxi driver’s life in ruins after the false accusation that was sparked when he refused to accept a kebab-soaked £10 note.

Her victim, a devout Muslim, said that he had been religiously tainted by what had been said and was shunned by friends and members of his community in Leeds, West Yorkshire.

He was banned from entering their homes, was stripped of his taxi licence for four weeks and unable to make any money.

He told the court: ‘I am now extremely reluctant to take lone females in case I am accused again.

‘The girl who accused me is the same age as my own daughter – I cannot comprehend why she made this allegation.

Speaking about the stress he suffered at the hands of the fake claims, he added:

‘Friends stopped speaking to me and letting me in to their homes.

‘People in my community do not even want to be seen with me.’

Pointon’s lies were untangled thanks to the information from the taxi’s GPRS.

A recording of a conversation between the driver and a phone operator at his taxi office supported his account.

Pointon broke down in tears and asked if she could drop the charges when her account was challenged by police.

She said her hopes of becoming a police officer were now ruined. She was jailed for 16 months.

iptba · 22-09-2017 10:13pm

I recall a couple of threads to discuss this issue in detail. But a quick check suggests there have been no posts to them for a while so I thought I would post this here.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/obama-campus-assault-guidance-gets-scrapped-under-trump/ar-AAsm0XG

Obama campus assault guidance gets scrapped under Trump

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Trump administration on Friday scrapped Obama-era guidance on investigating campus sexual assault, replacing it with new interim instructions allowing universities to decide which standard of evidence to use when handling complaints.

Education Secretary Betsy DeVos has said the Obama rules were unfairly skewed against the students accused of assault.

"This interim guidance will help schools as they work to combat sexual misconduct and will treat all students fairly," DeVos said in a statement.

"Schools must continue to confront these horrific crimes and behaviors head-on. There will be no more sweeping them under the rug. But the process also must be fair and impartial, giving everyone more confidence in its outcomes," she said.

DeVos' temporary guidance allows colleges the freedom to decide which standards of evidence they want to use when investigating complaints of sexual assault. Under Obama's instructions from 2011 and 2014, colleges were told to use "the preponderance of the evidence" standards, while DeVos lets colleges choose between that standard and "the clear and convincing evidence standard," which is harder to meet.

The temporary guidance will be in place while the Education Department gathers comments and comes up with new rules.

sheroman01 · 22-09-2017 10:19pm

When I heard the Chad Evans case, I thought to myself, f*ck, this happens all the time. This happens so commonly. But he got done for it. Probably because he was a footballer. I felt sorry for the guy. Anything I voiced my opinion on this, I was slated, they couldn't believe I was defending a racist. As if they knew. Delighted he ended up being acquitted in the end.

silverharp · 23-09-2017 9:40am

iptba wrote: »

I recall a couple of threads to discuss this issue in detail. But a quick check suggests there have been no posts to them for a while so I thought I would post this here.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/obama-campus-assault-guidance-gets-scrapped-under-trump/ar-AAsm0XG

The "preponderance of evidence" standard has been replaced with a "clear and convincing" one for university sexual assault investigations, so thats a positive

Wibbs · 23-09-2017 10:27pm

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Pathathic sentence for this one:

Aye OP, but at least she received a custodial sentence. It's not so long ago that she wouldn't have. There was another case recently of false rape accusation and she got sent down too. It might be early days yet and as a crime it's a real curse to pin down the truth, on both sides, but it does show that at least sometimes it is taken more seriously.

amtc · 24-09-2017 1:50am

I was on a jury in 2004 where a 17 year old boy was accused of raping a 15 year old girl. Legally we had to find him guilty of sexual assault but we could not reach a verdict on rape so were discharged. He was re tried and again a hung jury.

We were excluded from hearing evidence for a day and neither gave evidence. Turned out in second trial that the two were engaged and at second trial she had baby and was pregnant.

No idea how it got to court. Always thought odd her parents not there.

iptba · 15-12-2017 10:13pm

(UK)

Student Liam Allan 'betrayed' after rape trial collapse

A man whose rape trial collapsed after detectives failed to disclose vital evidence to the defence said he felt "betrayed" by police and the CPS.

Liam Allan was charged with 12 counts of rape and sexual assault but his trial collapsed after police were ordered to hand over phone records.

The 22-year-old student said his life had been "flipped upside down" and he wanted lessons to be learned.

The Met Police said it was "urgently reviewing this investigation".

The case against Mr Allan at Croydon Crown Court was dropped after three days when the evidence on a computer disk containing 40,000 messages revealed the alleged victim pestered him for "casual sex".

continues:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-42366629

iptba · 18-12-2017 4:11am

iptba wrote: »

(UK)

continues:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-42366629

'It wasn't against my will': Text message that irrefutably cleared an innocent student of rape is revealed as he vows to SUE police and CPS over his bungled case

- Liam Allan, 22, was 'dragged through hell' for two years while accused of rape

- Case against him collapsed when messages proving his innocence were found

- Mr Allan plans to sue the police and CPS for their bungled handling of the case

- A message from the alleged victim made before her complaint cleared Mr Allan

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5187749/Student-wrongly-accused-rape-plans-sue-CPS.html

iptba · 14-03-2018 4:16am

Woman found guilty of making false report of rape gets suspended sentence

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/woman-found-guilty-of-making-false-report-of-rape-gets-suspended-sentence-36702444.html

PeterParker957 · 14-03-2018 2:50pm

iptba wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/woman-found-guilty-of-making-false-report-of-rape-gets-suspended-sentence-36702444.html

Sentence should be the same for making a false allegation as committing the offence of rape IMO.

iptba · 31-03-2018 2:50am

This article doesn't give much information to help decide who might be right but it is interesting to see another outcome of such cases:

Female blogger is ordered to pay US Army colonel she accused of rape $8.4million in damages after he claimed the false allegations cost him a sparkling military career

Susan Shannon, 52, who now lives in Everett, Washington, first alleged that she was sexually assaulted by Army Colonel David 'Wil' Riggins in 1986

She said she waited three decades to come forward about her experience because of the army's 'code of silence'

But Riggins, also 52, who vehemently denied the claims, said the 'false' allegations had cost him a sparkling military career

By Harvey Day For Mailonline

2017

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4793030/Woman-pay-Army-colonel-accused-rape-8-4million.html

False rape accusation...who would you believe?

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