Stallions

tatoo · 25-03-2020 10:45pm

I think the studs would be entirely unreasonable to expect pre-pandemic rates for their product, when breeders will be getting post-pandemic prices for whatever clearance rate that will be there when the dust settles, whenever that will be.
And we all probably have stock bred at prices that might have given us a chance of profit in an ideal world, but now we are going to be in the teeth of a major recession and at the mercy of a much meaner and tighter market.

The Tetrarch · 26-03-2020 1:31am

I think the stallion studs might change their minds when we get to May and they have done small business.

Robson99 · 28-03-2020 12:05am

Can we still travel with a mare to stud with this lockdown ?

tatoo · 28-03-2020 1:12am

Robson99 wrote: »

Can we still travel with a mare to stud with this lockdown ?

I would think so, it's already under strict social restrictions, ie you must not leave your vehicle, stud staff will unload and then load your mare after covering, necessary paperwork to be sent online or held up to inside of vehicles window for photoing

tatoo · 28-03-2020 2:36am

https://twitter.com/ITBA_Official/status/1243688705568706560?s=19

tatoo · 02-04-2020 10:13pm

I'm hearing that several of the more expensive Irish NH stallions are very busy, are irish breeders amongst the most optimistic people on the planet or the most foolish?

The Mig · 16-04-2020 3:29pm

Shamardal brown bread

The Tetrarch · 16-04-2020 3:48pm

The Mig wrote: »

Shamardal brown bread

No cause of death given on the Racing Post.
He was one of the big stallions, in the top half dozen.

tryfix · 12-05-2020 8:41pm

Camelot has a G1 winner in Australia when the Northern Hemisphere bred 3yo Russian Camelot gives the 6 month older Southern Hemisphere bred 3yos a stylish beating in the 12f South Australian Derby.

He's joint favourite for the Melbourne Cup after that run. He has plenty going against him in the Melbourne Cup so he's probably a mugs bet.

He's stylish, ran 3-4-5-6 wide most of the way around and won comfortably in the end. The ground was Good to Soft, as a Camelot it's hard to see him improving from such a stylish win, on the other hand age and weight wise he will be catching up with the Southern Hemisphere breds.

The Tetrarch · 19-05-2020 10:22am

Influential international sire Forty Niner dies aged 35

That is a great age.
In my data he has 250 progeny, 3,996 grandchildren, 1,723 great grandchildren.
If his line continues it will be through his sons Coronado's Quest; Distorted Humor; End Sweep; Luhuk; Roar; Twining.

There are a few horses where Forty Niner is now in their first generation e.g.
Artenetra (f) (2018) out of Always Annie (f) (2010) by Mount Nelson (m) (2004) out of Independence (f) (1998) out of Yukon Hope (f) (1993) by Forty Niner (m) (1985).

I says · 19-05-2020 11:51am

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Influential international sire Forty Niner dies aged 35

That is a great age.
In my data he has 250 progeny, 3,996 grandchildren, 1,723 great grandchildren.
If his line continues it will be through his sons Coronado's Quest; Distorted Humor; End Sweep; Luhuk; Roar; Twining.

There are a few horses where Forty Niner is now in their first generation e.g.
Artenetra (f) (2018) out of Always Annie (f) (2010) by Mount Nelson (m) (2004) out of Independence (f) (1998) out of Yukon Hope (f) (1993) by Forty Niner (m) (1985).

250 progeny that’s a NH sires covers in one season here now in some cases with the way breeding is going.

tryfix · 03-06-2020 5:54pm

Last Sunday a €1.1 million 3yo Andre Fabre Coolmore colt called Ocean Atlantique won a listed 10f contest by 5L at odds of 1/5f. It was a snazzy looking performance but I don't think he beat much, he's now joint favourite for the Prix Du Jockey Club. . He himself had finished 2nd in a G3 9f contest on his seasonal debut, Pao Alto the horse that beat him that day shares favouritism for the Jockey Club.

He's a big strong horse ( very much like Peintre Celebre in physique) who looks like a French Derby horse but what caught my eye was that in looks he was very typical of what you'd expect from his sire American Pharoah. With the other big Coolmore owned American Pharoah ( out of a Galileo mare UP) colt Monarch Of Egypt being spoken of as a Jersey Horse it's a bit hard to figure out what to expect tripwise and precocity-wise from these powerful looking American Pharoahs.

Obviously Coolmore either love them and or want to push their Triple Crown winning big stallion prospect. There's a lot of American Pharoah 2yos in Ballydoyle this year and also a few by his sire Pharoah Of The Nile so it would be great to understand what to expect from them, any views on them would be very welcome?

Ocean Atlantique himself has a big stallions pedigree with his dam side promising to eclipse the sire side of his pedigree. His 1st dam Tare Green is a Giant's Causeway ( himself out of a blue hen Maria's Storm) half sister to a Champion in Leroidesanimux. They are out of his 2nd Dam Dissemble who is a half sister to super blue hen Hasili dam of the legendary 5 G1 winners Banks Hill, Cacique, Intercontinental, Champs Elysee and Heat Haze. Another sibling the multiple placed top G1 horse Dansili who made a name as a quality sire.

Ocean Atlantique is free from both Danehill and Galileo so he's going to be an ideal addition to the Coolmore roster if he can live up to his promise.

I says · 27-06-2020 1:46pm

Any word on where Siskin will stand at the end of his racing career?

The Mig · 27-06-2020 6:30pm

Coolmore I’d imagine? Didn’t they buy Calyx off PKA also?

tryfix · 09-07-2020 3:53pm

Night Of Thunder just keeps on impressing. A Dante winner, an Italian Oaks winner, this lad can do it all and he's just £25k.

Dubawi over Galileo, the 2 most potent lines in European Racing. Thankfully Dubawi is keeping the Dubai Millennium line going. His sons are making fine stallions and their sons are too with the French Derby winner being out of Ballylinch's Make Believe out of Dubawi's other 2,000 Guineas winner Makfi.

tryfix · 18-07-2020 3:10am

I was perusing Golden Horn's record as a stallion to see if any of those well regarded stock of his had improved significantly as 3yos. According to the Racing Post there was much enthusiasm about their prospects as 3yos.

From the Racing Post Stallion record for him. He has just 2 horses rated at over 100 OR and they are rated 101 and 103. There are a 4 rated between 90 and 100.

Surely that's a poor start for an Arc winner who started on an initial fee of £60,000 ( now £40,000 )? Any theories on what's going on with them? They look well as physical specimens but those figures don't lie.

For a comparison Gleneagles stood at €60,000 ( now €35,000 ) and has 6 rated over 100 with the top 3 rated 111, 110, 107, he has 5 rated between 90 and 100.

It's a bit hard to figure out both stallions at this stage. Gleneagles is maybe a lot like Rip Van Winkle as a stallion. Decent enough but in the long run not good enough to trouble the big boys.

Night Of Thunder started at €30,000 ( now €25,000 ) puts both to shame with 8 over OR 100 and 12 rated between 90 and 100.

tryfix · 23-07-2020 7:47pm

Donnacha O'Brien's Nicest won on her debut today but I still can't get my head around them paying 6 million for her Irish Oaks winning mother Chiquita. I know that it's a great family but Chiquita was a wayward type and being by Montjeu wouldn't have helped.

It's encouraging to see a 2yo American Pharoah filly getting a mile on her debut. He's been a hard stallion to keep believing in after Ocean Atlantique looked like he wasn't happy at a trip in the French Derby.

Hopefully two slightly wrongs will make a right one in Nicest. I see the favourite in her race Willow is yet another daughter of American Pharoah ( x Peeping Fawn) who finished back in 3rd.

According to the Racing Post in GB and Ireland American Pharoah is 0 for 5 runners at 10-11f, 0 for 2 at 12-13f, 0 for 1 on Heavy, 0 for 2 on Good to Soft.

Firm ground and a mile or less seem to be what his stock need.

Faugheen · 30-07-2020 1:10pm

Camelot appears to be turning into a reliable stallion just based on a quick look at him. Still a bit off Galileo of course but continuing on the Montjeu legacy can only be a good thing.

tryfix · 30-07-2020 8:06pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Camelot appears to be turning into a reliable stallion just based on a quick look at him. Still a bit off Galileo of course but continuing on the Montjeu legacy can only be a good thing.

For the type of horses he's producing he's seems to be very reasonable at €40,000 compared to the silly money some other stallions are making.

He's still a long way from being a Galileo, for sure he can produce plenty of Classic contenders and he has produced an Irish Derby and Irish Oak's winner.

There has been a problem sealing the deal when he has had more obvious classic contenders which is basically where he falls down.

Sir Dragonet started favourite for the Epsom Derby and didn't live up to the hype then or subsequently.

English King started favourite for the Epsom Derby and didn't live up to the hype then or subsequently.

Pink Dogwood nearly started favourite for the Epsom Oaks where she fell short and then she started favourite for the Pretty Polly and then the Irish Oaks, she again failed to win or progress from her previous runs.

The beautifully bred Goddess looked like a goddess and she failed to progress, although her full sister Athena did the business at Grade 1 level without doing too much damage in European racing. Maybe he needs some more G1 producing mares sent to him to let him produce some Championship class runners. The most dissapointing thing about English King was that he is from a great family and he still couldn't live up to his promise.

His best on ratings so far have been Sir Dragonet and Hunting Horn, although I think his Australian G1 winning colt Russian Camelot looks to be the most promising thing that he has produced.

Is there a stamina question over his ability to produce proper Leger and Cup horses?

tryfix · 30-07-2020 9:43pm

Talking of stallions kicking on, Mohaater's sire Showcasing has done that with Mohaater and Advertise in the same crop.

He started at £20k and is now up to £55k. His half brother Camacho has the advantage of being by Danehill, Showcasing is by Oasis Dream so hopefully his rising quality as a stallion is a welcome non Danehill addition to the top stallion ranks.

Showcasing can keep rising.

tryfix · 02-08-2020 9:49am

RIP to Rip Van Winkle who passed away in New Zealand. He was the 2nd highest rated of all Galileo's progeny. He had a good second career as a stallion, with a great start fading to an unspectacular rest of his career in Ireland before Coolmore dropped him. He seemed to have found an ideal new home at stud in New Zealand where he was starting to bang in G1 winners.

Given that he was successful in New Zealand it seems likely that a replacement Galileo line stallion will be heading off to NZ to replace him.

Who will it be?

A classic winning miler like the Gurkha would be a good replacement for him but hopefully Coolmore aren't ready to let him go without seeing what kind of level he can make it as a stallion.

Peintre Celebre · 02-08-2020 10:00am

Camelot has gone a very similar way to Mastercraftsman and Zoffany. Both looked to really be en route to the top but have sizzled out a bit. Mastercraftsman did have a proper top class gr.1 filly in Alpha Centauri having looked in bad need of one but it's been disappointing he hasn't thrown up any others when his fee increased.

Zoffany will get good racehorses that sell well but they seem to flatter to deceive a bit. Hopefully Albigna can improve and win a few gr.1s. Both he and Mastercraftsman seem to get better fillies than colts

Camelot's Irish oaks winner was probably well needed

The Tetrarch · 14-08-2020 7:06pm

Coolmore purchase Wootton Bassett from Haras d'Etreham, 12 years old and one good son, Almanzor.
His pedigree is a bit different from the usual Coolmore stallion descended from Northern Dancer.
Wootton Bassett is from the Mr Prospector sire line, and his damsire is not a Northern Dancer sire line either.

I says · 14-08-2020 11:33pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Coolmore purchase Wootton Bassett from Haras d'Etreham, 12 years old and one good son, Almanzor.
His pedigree is a bit different from the usual Coolmore stallion descended from Northern Dancer.
Wootton Bassett is from the Mr Prospector sire line, and his damsire is not a Northern Dancer sire line either.

I’d say the cheque was fairly large.

tryfix · 15-08-2020 3:58am

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Coolmore purchase Wootton Bassett from Haras d'Etreham, 12 years old and one good son, Almanzor.
His pedigree is a bit different from the usual Coolmore stallion descended from Northern Dancer.
Wootton Bassett is from the Mr Prospector sire line, and his damsire is not a Northern Dancer sire line either.

He's a little bit different and his career is definitely on the up and if they are being honest about sending him plenty of Galileo mares then he should click very nicely with them. This year's 2 year olds from him are very good and his dearer fee stock have yet to hit the racecourse.

He has Northern Dancer on his sire Ifraaj's side. Ifraaj is out of a Nureyev mare. He has more Northern Dancer in him than he has Mr Prospector but both are well back on the pedigree. I suspect that the fact that he's out of the Zafonic line is a big plus to them. They can't get enough of the Zafonic mare Prudenzia's stock. They keep spending multi-millions on her progeny and it looks like a wise investment.

There's Ahanoora and Park Appeal in there too and they regularly spend millions on foals from the Park Appeal family.

Using War Front on the Galileo mares is working well for producing quality stock but they're not teak tough middle-distance types. Wootton Basset has produced middle-distance types, if he gets the mares sent to him he'll produce Classic horses.

The Tetrarch · 15-08-2020 11:06am

I had at look at the Haras d'Etreham website.
They stand Almanzor, the son of Wootton Bassett, and his first yearlings are due in 2020.
The sale makes sense. It would be difficult for a stud to sell the services of both Wootton Bassett and his son Almanzor.

Fwiw my mare visited Scissor Kick at Haras d'Etreham four times this year without success.
Scissor Kick is having a tricky start with his first runners this year.
17 have run with 14 non-winning prizes (6 x 2nd), and no wins.

tryfix · 23-08-2020 6:47pm

Coolmore's decision to purchase Wootton Bassett received some early vindication through his daughter Audarya's win in today's 10f G1 Prix Jean Romanet. James Fanshawe has done an amazing job to get this filly ( who won her last race in an all-weather Newcastle Handicap off a mark of 99) to this level, she was a 48/1 shot today.

I says · 13-09-2020 12:50am

Chindit wins the champagne for WB. Coolmore delighted. Australia sires ledger winner will they stick with him or will he make his way onto the NH roster?

tryfix · 13-09-2020 11:54am

I says wrote: »

Chindit wins the champagne for WB. Coolmore delighted. Australia sires ledger winner will they stick with him or will he make his way onto the NH roster?

I'd say that they will stick with Australia for another season or two. People are naturally sweet on Australia but Coolmore themselves have little enough interest in running his stock but thanks to Joseph O'Brien and Jessica Harrington his stock have been showing enough talent to keep him in his flat role.

His long term future is hard to suss, I don't think Coolmore gave him a fair shake at all, for a stallion that they were touting as the successor to Galileo they didn't seem to be sending many high class mares his way and after a decent haul for his first crop of 2yos they dropped most of their interest in running his stock from then on.

I'd put it this way with all the Derby winners Coolmore have at their disposal the only one that they have put some faith in is Camelot and that was mostly down to results forcing him back up the roster.

Runners from Pour Moi, Ruler Of The World and Australia are thin to non existent on the ground at Ballydoyle. What chance will the likes of Anthony Van Dyck get? Then you have all the Not so hot Irish Derby winners ( waves at Capri ) who are lucky if they get to go straight to Coolmore NH division.

They need to be planning for the post-Galileo days and need to replace like with like.

I says · 13-09-2020 1:47pm

tryfix wrote: »

I'd say that they will stick with Australia for another season or two. People are naturally sweet on Australia but Coolmore themselves have little enough interest in running his stock but thanks to Joseph O'Brien and Jessica Harrington his stock have been showing enough talent to keep him in his flat role.

His long term future is hard to suss, I don't think Coolmore gave him a fair shake at all, for a stallion that they were touting as the successor to Galileo they didn't seem to be sending many high class mares his way and after a decent haul for his first crop of 2yos they dropped most of their interest in running his stock from then on.

I'd put it this way with all the Derby winners Coolmore have at their disposal the only one that they have put some faith in is Camelot and that was mostly down to results forcing him back up the roster.

Runners from Pour Moi, Ruler Of The World and Australia are thin to non existent on the ground at Ballydoyle. What chance will the likes of Anthony Van Dyck get? Then you have all the Not so hot Irish Derby winners ( waves at Capri ) who are lucky if they get to go straight to Coolmore NH division.

They need to be planning for the post-Galileo days and need to replace like with like.

They’ll soon need to import an American bloodline to outcross all these Galileo and danehill mares. WB just the start for outcrossing.

Stallions

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