Future suckler or dry stock

dohc turbo2 · 16-06-2019 7:05pm #1

Well lads , anyone in the bgdp going to change after it’s over , will ye keep at the sucklers or are they getting the road , me personally I’m cutting back but it’s got to do with health reasons and the fact that the cost of the suckler cow and the return of the weanling , I’m thinking of cutting back and see how things play out with England etc , I live off farm so travel costs and work play part , I often have seen cattle going trough the ring that would have been worth a shot money wise but was never been in a position to buy as the sucklers were needing all the grass at home .

Mac Taylor · 16-06-2019 9:07pm

dohc turbo2 wrote: »

Well lads , anyone in the bgdp going to change after it’s over , will ye keep at the sucklers or are they getting the road , me personally I’m cutting back but it’s got to do with health reasons and the fact that the cost of the suckler cow and the return of the weanling , I’m thinking of cutting back and see how things play out with England etc , I live off farm so travel costs and work play part , I often have seen cattle going trough the ring that would have been worth a shot money wise but was never been in a position to buy as the sucklers were needing all the grass at home .

Will cut back....currently have 20 and either 10 or 15, quality v quantity. No point killing ones self and thruthfully will probably make more (or lose less!!!!).

Birdnuts · 16-06-2019 9:49pm

Its clear that the only logical response to the current state of affairts is to go more extensive and have good hard look at numbers and inputs at farm level

Dozer1 · 16-06-2019 10:06pm

I would question are many lads in sucklers that heavily stocked already. If you take a year like this year where grass is really flying around here you can't keep making bales as I can't see a market for them so what will keep the grass down. Will lads be happy to look at 20 or 30 skinny fr or HE around the place instead and they not leaving a lot more maybe they will. That said not sure here yet can't see a big drop in numbers but might get rid of autumn calvers and move to 100% spring.

_Brian · 16-06-2019 10:14pm

Must be hard decision for lads that have put years into bringing on farm bred replacements.
Dry stock at least you can mess with numbers easily enough.

SuperTortoise · 17-06-2019 8:50pm

_Brian wrote: »

Must be hard decision for lads that have put years into bringing on farm bred replacements.
Dry stock at least you can mess with numbers easily enough.

I walked my cows and calves about an hour ago, and i was thinking of that very thing, i could trace out the lineage of most of my herd going back 25 years to the formation, i remarked to my father last weekend how happy i was with the quality we have, so much so i did'nt keep any replacements this year.
Big decisions to be made and soon, i don't look forward to that discussion because i already know what the outcome will likely be.

TPF2012 · 17-06-2019 9:14pm

SuperTortoise wrote:

I walked my cows and calves about an hour ago, and i was thinking of that very thing, i could trace out the lineage of most of my herd going back 25 years to the formation, i remarked to my father last weekend how happy i was with the quality we have, so much so i did'nt keep any replacements this year. Big decisions to be made and soon, i don't look forward to that discussion because i already know what the outcome will likely be.

I make a small profit from suckers, sane person would walk away from hourly rate though. The only reason I stick at it is to get satisfaction from breeding, all Ai here and I would not have same interest in bought in stock. All heritage known back 20 years here and try keep lines going from cows going back to my grandfather and grand uncle. I'm only at it 5 years in my own right so I can imagine turmoil to farmers going on 40 years plus.

Birdnuts · 17-06-2019 9:53pm

TPF2012 wrote: »

I make a small profit from suckers, sane person would walk away from hourly rate though. The only reason I stick at it is to get satisfaction from breeding, all Ai here and I would not have same interest in bought in stock. All heritage known back 20 years here and try keep lines going from cows going back to my grandfather and grand uncle. I'm only at it 5 years in my own right so I can imagine turmoil to farmers going on 40 years plus.

I'd be of the same approach - I'm going to focus more on native hardy breeds to manage the biodiversity on my patch. It will allow me further indulge my love of watching Galloway cows and calves from my ktichen window:D

kingdom fan · 17-06-2019 11:01pm

Similar approach here, i took over 50 acres, a lot in of rushes and a cubicle shed. 11 yrs later 80 acres, 47 sucker cow's, 110 cattle in total. I use a fair bit of AI in winter. ( 11 cow's ai'd two winters ago and 1 , yes one, heifer ðŸ˜ðŸ˜) i know the lineage of all home bred cow's have bought In 7 cow's & a PB CH bull in past 2 years. Love pointing out an AI bred heifer with a nice calf and tell d old boys " she's off 265, who was bred from d blue 15 years ago " etc.. Pushing grass growth, grass utilisation, and breeding is like some insatiable addiction, for me anyway. No interest in machines. Haven't made one brass farthing in 11 years, and will be years paying of debt, but there isn't a rush here now ( drains/ ploughing whenever I've a few quid, bought 30 acres, 2 tractors, 2 slatted sheds, hay shed all built in a few years )
Madness, I know. Totall madness, ðŸ€”
But I left Dublin 11 years ago, best decision ever. Madness is that rat race I watched.

charolais0153 · 17-06-2019 11:10pm

SuperTortoise wrote: »

I walked my cows and calves about an hour ago, and i was thinking of that very thing, i could trace out the lineage of most of my herd going back 25 years to the formation, i remarked to my father last weekend how happy i was with the quality we have, so much so i did'nt keep any replacements this year.
Big decisions to be made and soon, i don't look forward to that discussion because i already know what the outcome will likely be.

At this stage I don’t think I’d care either way if the cows went in the morning, 3or 4 years ago I’d have told the auld lad where to go if he suggested getting out of them

Half of the cows might have good calves one year and the other half good the following year, impossible to get them all right
As nice as it is to look at the good ones, I hate looking at the bad ones:p

cacs · 17-06-2019 11:12pm

kingdom fan wrote: »

Similar approach here, i took over 50 acres, a lot in of rushes and a cubicle shed. 11 yrs later 80 acres, 47 sucker cow's, 110 cattle in total. I use a fair bit of AI in winter. ( 11 cow's ai'd two winters ago and 1 , yes one, heifer ðŸ˜ðŸ˜) i know the lineage of all home bred cow's have bought In 7 cow's & a PB CH bull in past 2 years. Love pointing out an AI bred heifer with a nice calf and tell d old boys " she's off 265, who was bred from d blue 15 years ago " etc.. Pushing grass growth, grass utilisation, and breeding is like some insatiable addiction, for me anyway. No interest in machines. Haven't made one brass farthing in 11 years, and will be years paying of debt, but there isn't a rush here now ( drains/ ploughing whenever I've a few quid, bought 30 acres, 2 tractors, 2 slatted sheds, hay shed all built in a few years )
Madness, I know. Totall madness, ðŸ€”
But I left Dublin 11 years ago, best decision ever. Madness is that rat race I watched.

I love it I am bit like that myself only on smaller scale. Happy as the day is long at it

Bass Reeves · 19-06-2019 1:04am

Dozer1 wrote: »

I would question are many lads in sucklers that heavily stocked already. If you take a year like this year where grass is really flying around here you can't keep making bales as I can't see a market for them so what will keep the grass down. Will lads be happy to look at 20 or 30 skinny fr or HE around the place instead and they not leaving a lot more maybe they will. That said not sure here yet can't see a big drop in numbers but might get rid of autumn calvers and move to 100% spring.

I put up a few photos of a few cattle. The first two are of two ****ty skinny (SS) Friesians. The second two are these nice suckler cattle. Now the SS Friesians are younger cattle by a few months all the cattle were bought at the same mart. All went on ration at the same time. The nice suckler cattle are gobbling more of the ration but not finishing they will be still gobbling it for another 6-8 weeks. The Fr are FS 3. The nice suckler cattle will eat 2-3 times more ration.

Now for efficiency I carry cattle in two lots a finishing lot on 3kgs of ration and a lot on grass only. The two friesian are two types a nice squarish BF type and a black holsteinish Fr. The Ho is gaining weight faster than the BF type and will out weight the BF type by 20-30kgs at slaughter, they will only be one grid position between them and the way grading is going neither will make QA. The two LM bullocks will gobble ration and be hitting penalty weight at slaughter in a normal year prices will have dropped 20-30c/kg by the time they hang and I would prefer to be looking at the Friesians.
Both will leave a twist as they came in at the right price but I would not be calling those friesians ****ty and skinny. As well they do not run half way accross the paddock every time I glance at them

Anto_Meath · 19-06-2019 9:41am

That is just it Bass its about feeding what will leave a twist, breed doesn't really matter. With the FR's there is less money invested therefore you can buy more of them for the same investment and if you have the ground to feed them then you are on a winner. As you said with the good U grade continental they are up around 400kgs dead weight before they are fit and you will be getting cut for over weight at that. Some people are fixated on the nice big fancy Ch or Limo as they look good, but your good straight FR, HEX or a proper AAx will leave as much & maybe more as they come fit quicker, eat less and as I said cost less to buy.

kk.man · 19-06-2019 10:10am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I put up a few photos of a few cattle. The first two are of two ****ty skinny (SS) Friesians. The second two are these nice suckler cattle. Now the SS Friesians are younger cattle by a few months all the cattle were bought at the same mart. All went on ration at the same time. The nice suckler cattle are gobbling more of the ration but not finishing they will be still gobbling it for another 6-8 weeks. The Fr are FS 3. The nice suckler cattle will eat 2-3 times more ration.

Now for efficiency I carry cattle in two lots a finishing lot on 3kgs of ration and a lot on grass only. The two friesian are two types a nice squarish BF type and a black holsteinish Fr. The Ho is gaining weight faster than the BF type and will out weight the BF type by 20-30kgs at slaughter, they will only be one grid position between them and the way grading is going neither will make QA. The two LM bullocks will gobble ration and be hitting penalty weight at slaughter in a normal year prices will have dropped 20-30c/kg by the time they hang and I would prefer to be looking at the Friesians.
Both will leave a twist as they came in at the right price but I would not be calling those friesians ****ty and skinny. As well they do not run half way accross the paddock every time I glance at them

Love your 1st Fr. Will he grade 0= ?

Bass Reeves · 19-06-2019 10:27am

kk.man wrote: »

Love your 1st Fr. Will he grade 0= ?

Do not think so had two similar nice ones lately one graded O- and the other P+. I think the machine is programmed to drop a grade when FR appears on the machine. Now I may move processors next time

Bullocks · 19-06-2019 10:28am

I'm a few years saying we will hold onto them thinking there might be a decent scheme of payment for them but I don't see it happening.
Id love to see a worthwhile environmental scheme coming either so long as it would pay. There is lots of talk of lads getting out of sucklers but no sign of it happening around me. One ould fella got rid of his, that's all the cutting down I see

jntsnk · 19-06-2019 10:33am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Do not think so had two similar nice ones lately one graded O- and the other P+. I think the machine is programmed to drop a grade when FR appears on the machine. Now I may move processors next time

I used to kill a lot if Fr but about 4 years ago I noticed the grading went down.reckon factories were creaming more for themselves. No money in P grade cattle.

blue5000 · 19-06-2019 10:54am

From my horoscope today;

CAREER
Clinging to thoughts of ownership doesn't behoove you today, so cast aside materialism and possessiveness like old email messages. Delete those suckers regardless of how you feel, and move on.

carrollsno1 · 19-06-2019 1:07pm

From a pretty decent farming area in mid kilkenny with a few big sized dairy herds and a good few nice sized dairy herds but i reckon theres more sucklers/drystock in the area than anything else. In the few years before i left i noticed those farms were either switching to dairy or part time farming and even lads who got out of dairy into drystock and now back into dairying again, but most of the dairy farmers round there have a mentality that the cows are a sideline of the dairy beef enterprise on the farm. Plenty of places in all sectors not being utilized the best they can be single farm payment has held back a lot of farms round there and motorway has it looking aestethically well (nice fence and laneway around docks and thistles) as it was there was shag all new blood coming along there was never a generation of young farmers in the area really just a handful here and there every so often, i reckon in the next 20 years it will be a sea of black and white around there with some stud farms and the odd suckler farmer too proud/stubborn to change over but i reckon even the proudest of suckler lads will have to change eventually. Therell also be a lot of armchair farmers around too farm leased out to the dairy lads and they can get to dublin in an hour and get an office job to keep them busy during the week.

_Brian · 19-06-2019 3:23pm

Bullocks wrote: »

I'm a few years saying we will hold onto them thinking there might be a decent scheme of payment for them but I don't see it happening.
Id love to see a worthwhile environmental scheme coming either so long as it would pay. There is lots of talk of lads getting out of sucklers but no sign of it happening around me. One ould fella got rid of his, that's all the cutting down I see

Definite reductions in numbers round here. Small dairy lads exiting too, 25 cow lads.

Skerries Steve · 19-06-2019 5:04pm

Every paper you open seems to talk about all the doom and gloom surrounding sucklers.
Go to any clearance sale of sucklers and there is a full house of people eager to buy.
Good cattle are still
making good money.
Take dairying out of the equation sucklers are the best of the rest, and if you take labour into account dairying is not that far ahead for the amount of time and dedication and investment that is involved.

_Brian · 19-06-2019 5:22pm

Skerries Steve wrote: »

Every paper you open seems to talk about all the doom and gloom surrounding sucklers.
Go to any clearance sale of sucklers and there is a full house of people eager to buy.
Good cattle are still
making good money.
Take dairying out of the equation sucklers are the best of the rest, and if you take labour into account dairying is not that far ahead for the amount of time and dedication and investment that is involved.

Would sheep not be ahead of beef ?

pat73 · 19-06-2019 5:31pm

Would anyone know the percentage of beef/suckler farmers that are farming full time.,count out the farmers that their wifes are working full time outside the farm gate .been a part time farmer my self I cant imagine how some one could make a decent living out of beef farming in the present.

_Brian · 19-06-2019 5:39pm

pat73 wrote: »

Would anyone know the percentage of beef/suckler farmers that are farming full time.,count out the farmers that their wifes are working full time outside the farm gate .been a part time farmer my self I cant imagine how some one could make a decent living out of beef farming in the present.

I’d say only a tiny % of beef farms have no off farm income. Loads of lads who think hey are full time beef farmers have a wife working off farm which means the income is part time.

emaherx · 19-06-2019 5:47pm

_Brian wrote: »

I’d say only a tiny % of beef farms have no off farm income. Loads of lads who think hey are full time beef farmers have a wife working off farm which means the income is part time.

Well that's a little unfair, I know very few couples where both are not working full time.

Grueller · 19-06-2019 7:09pm

emaherx wrote: »

Well that's a little unfair, I know very few couples where both are not working full time.

Wife here cut her hours to match primary school hours. Starts @ 9, finishes @ 2:30 working through lunch. Straight to collect kids then. Great family life and we are financially better off not paying a child minder. Child minder was costing €450 per month. The wages dropped by €350 with the way the tax system penalises those on the high tax bracket. You can be a busy fool.

_Brian · 19-06-2019 7:20pm

emaherx wrote: »

Well that's a little unfair, I know very few couples where both are not working full time.

Don’t get me wrong I’m not criticising, it’s essential people keep up andecent standard of living.
We just need to recognise within the conversation of “full time” vs “part time” and why that implies when people throw it about.

I’ve often seen it posted that part time lads don’t care about making a loss as they get it back on tax from their jobs. It’s just not true, nobody doesn’t care about making a loss.
And if a fella was at home all the time making a loss could they not claim that back against the tax paid by his wife ?? So where’s the difference ??

I work off farm but not a single € from my wage goes into the farm, not ever, it has its own account and it sinks or swims on its own.

But still you often see complaints that part time lads are propping up farms with their off farm wages.

Beef is pretty bad business at the moment, but it’s not the fault of farmers and it suits the addenda of many to turn farmers against each other rather than face the monopoly that keeps prices suppressed.

kk.man · 19-06-2019 7:54pm

_Brian wrote: »

Don’t get me wrong I’m not criticising, it’s essential people keep up andecent standard of living.
We just need to recognise within the conversation of “full time” vs “part time” and why that implies when people throw it about.

I’ve often seen it posted that part time lads don’t care about making a loss as they get it back on tax from their jobs. It’s just not true, nobody doesn’t care about making a loss.
And if a fella was at home all the time making a loss could they not claim that back against the tax paid by his wife ?? So where’s the difference ??

I work off farm but not a single € from my wage goes into the farm, not ever, it has its own account and it sinks or swims on its own.

But still you often see complaints that part time lads are propping up farms with their off farm wages.

Beef is pretty bad business at the moment, but it’s not the fault of farmers and it suits the addenda of many to turn farmers against each other rather than face the monopoly that keeps prices suppressed.

I am the same not one penny goes into my farm from my salary and the same the other way around. I am not making a loss farming but I am not feeding, clothing etc myself from it either.

I do really feel for people and they are plenty making a living solely off drystock farming. With all their asset value and only making a minimum wage.

emaherx · 19-06-2019 8:36pm

_Brian wrote: »

Don’t get me wrong I’m not criticising, it’s essential people keep up andecent standard of living.
We just need to recognise within the conversation of “full time” vs “part time” and why that implies when people throw it about.

I’ve often seen it posted that part time lads don’t care about making a loss as they get it back on tax from their jobs. It’s just not true, nobody doesn’t care about making a loss.
And if a fella was at home all the time making a loss could they not claim that back against the tax paid by his wife ?? So where’s the difference ??

I work off farm but not a single € from my wage goes into the farm, not ever, it has its own account and it sinks or swims on its own.

But still you often see complaints that part time lads are propping up farms with their off farm wages.

Beef is pretty bad business at the moment, but it’s not the fault of farmers and it suits the addenda of many to turn farmers against each other rather than face the monopoly that keeps prices suppressed.

Don't disagree with any of that, but just saying having a spouse with a full time job is not an indication of whether or not your own enterprise whatever that may be, is providing a full or part time wage. Most families these days have 2 full time incomes.

Part time farmer here myself and damn right I want to make money at it and mostly do (definitely not a full time income), like yourself my farm needs to finance itself or she's not going to let me do it

Bass Reeves · 19-06-2019 10:17pm

The thing I ask myself how many full time drystock farmers are really fulltime. How many lads are doing a bit of contracting, hauling or are an agent. I only know one lads locally that raised a family off a drystock farm and who's wife did not work. Every one of there childern is working off farm now. In most cases unless a bachleor most lads taht are full time have both the wife working and another parttime income as well.

However what is more interesting to look at is the rate/hour a profitable drystock leaves. Profit monitors can be deceptive as depreciation of cars, diesel, ESB, phone are all taken out and maybe other costs as well. I work out my costs and work off that. there is a certain amount of movement between accounts. However the farm account pays off a land loan over 10k/year, wages to children in college 8K at present but it was up at nearly 12K. Farm insurance (which includes the dwelling house and a house on farm. A couple of cars are taxed and insured out of it. The fleet is serviced out of it. There is other bits and pieces.

My own calculation si that I make over 200/head on average on the 55-60 cattle that I finish at present and I have the SFP, GLAS, ANC and knowledge group on top of that.

carrollsno1 · 19-06-2019 11:30pm

Skerries Steve wrote: »

Every paper you open seems to talk about all the doom and gloom surrounding sucklers.
Go to any clearance sale of sucklers and there is a full house of people eager to buy.
Good cattle are still
making good money.
Take dairying out of the equation sucklers are the best of the rest, and if you take labour into account dairying is not that far ahead for the amount of time and dedication and investment that is involved.

Theres nearly as much time dedicated with sucklers as dairying to be honest with you, especially if lads are part time. I remember neighbouring dairy farmers saying to me jesus the sucklers are grand no committment etc but they still have to be checked every day do they not? We even strip grazed moving the wire twice a day with some of ours at times of the year. Dedication and investment they still need a shed in most parts of the country the only difference is that the dairy farmers are getting smarter with wintering, be it outwintering or using pads/topless cubicles but where im from its the suckler lads who are afraid to leave the animals out.
In terms of financial comparisons on the drystock course in ag college a few years back we were basically told "lads if ye run yore suckler enterprise at the top end of the scale for efficiencies, guess what lads yell make as much money as a bad dairy farmer"

Future suckler or dry stock

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