Future suckler or dry stock

_blaaz

_Brian wrote: »

Would sheep not be ahead of beef ?

By a bit afaik......but you would want a gra for them.and they is a good bit extra work with them



Whether that extra work is enough to justify the extra money is a tough question

carrollsno1

_blaaz wrote: »

By a bit afaik......but you would want a gra for them.and they is a good bit extra work with them



Whether that extra work is enough to justify the extra money is a tough question

Good setup makes all the difference some lads rather whinge than give a bitta comfort to themselves, my grsndfather used to whinge about neighbours stock breaking in and ours breaking out but the man never put in a decent fence in all his time on the farm and he lived into his 90s if i was thrown onto the farm in the morning a fence is the first thing id be sorting

_blaaz

carrollsno1 wrote: »

Good setup makes all the difference some lads rather whinge than give a bitta comfort to themselves, my grsndfather used to whinge about neighbours stock breaking in and ours breaking out but the man never put in a decent fence in all his time on the farm and he lived into his 90s if i was thrown onto the farm in the morning a fence is the first thing id be sorting

Thats what i done here....basically fenced and paddocked (well fenced the small fields) the place over a few years


Creep graze and feed the lambs,will have 60% sold by end next week (works out at e6 euro a lamb meal :-/)....fencing is everybit as important as anything i found at sheep

Bass Reeves

carrollsno1 wrote: »

Good setup makes all the difference some lads rather whinge than give a bitta comfort to themselves, my grsndfather used to whinge about neighbours stock breaking in and ours breaking out but the man never put in a decent fence in all his time on the farm and he lived into his 90s if i was thrown onto the farm in the morning a fence is the first thing id be sorting

I buy a few cattle off farms. I notice the hardship lads carry on with. See lads renting land and there own only runninga 50-60% of what it is capable of. Not just bounds fences but internal fences. See lads giving cattle the run of 20-30 acres and no grass but feeding nuts or ration at the same time.

Friend of mine is renting 40 acres. He will finish nearly 30 heifers off it. They were bough lasy August about 320kg average. They will kill 270-280kgs DW. Over 20 will be finished off grass alone. He will also make over 300 bales of wich he will sell 200. As he is lowly stocked he takes in a bit of slurry. He hardly buys 5 ton of fertlizer. Nice tidy operation he will clear about 10-12K and only spends 12 hours a week farming.

carrollsno1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I buy a few cattle off farms. I notice the hardship lads carry on with. See lads renting land and there own only runninga 50-60% of what it is capable of. Not just bounds fences but internal fences. See lads giving cattle the run of 20-30 acres and no grass but feeding nuts or ration at the same time.

Friend of mine is renting 40 acres. He will finish nearly 30 heifers off it. They were bough lasy August about 320kg average. They will kill 270-280kgs DW. Over 20 will be finished off grass alone. He will also make over 300 bales of wich he will sell 200. As he is lowly stocked he takes in a bit of slurry. He hardly buys 5 ton of fertlizer. Nice tidy operation he will clear about 10-12K and only spends 12 hours a week farming.

Is that in one block? Fragmentation is the killer really. Some great land around our spot and lads were told that 40 odd years ago and looking through the buttercups, rushes and other weeds they still believe the ground is so good theyve no need to look after it.

Bass Reeves

carrollsno1 wrote: »

Is that in one block? Fragmentation is the killer really. Some great land around our spot and lads were told that 40 odd years ago and looking through the buttercups, rushes and other weeds they still believe the ground is so good theyve no need to look after it.

Yes in one block however he paddocked it. Real simple method stuck water troughs into middle of the fields ran water pipe along the ground. He drove a few posts eith side of the water troughs and used pigtails and string to make paddocks.

Problems I see with sucklers most lads that have them even if not fragmented run them in 4-5 bunches. There the main bunch, a few culls, a few heifers, there is always an animal with a problem, then there is 2-3 togeather for some other reason. Other than that most suckler farmers are unwiling to paddock farms laods of lads set stock.

josephsoap

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I buy a few cattle off farms. I notice the hardship lads carry on with. See lads renting land and there own only runninga 50-60% of what it is capable of. Not just bounds fences but internal fences. See lads giving cattle the run of 20-30 acres and no grass but feeding nuts or ration at the same time.

Friend of mine is renting 40 acres. He will finish nearly 30 heifers off it. They were bough lasy August about 320kg average. They will kill 270-280kgs DW. Over 20 will be finished off grass alone. He will also make over 300 bales of wich he will sell 200. As he is lowly stocked he takes in a bit of slurry. He hardly buys 5 ton of fertlizer. Nice tidy operation he will clear about 10-12K and only spends 12 hours a week farming.

Hi Bass, what type of money would he have paid for the 320kg heifers in August ?

Bass Reeves

josephsoap wrote: »

Hi Bass, what type of money would he have paid for the 320kg heifers in August ?

I think across all what he bought last year Inc comission and transportation they averaged somewhere between 550-570 euro. They were mostly bucket fed a mixture of AA, HE, LM and SA. There was a few light 2 year old heifers that are now over 36 months but will have good weight when slaughtered.

You hear s lot of lads BSing about the say you buy is the say you sell. In the drystock business you work on margin over this year's costs if the profit/margin is not on them the day you buy it will not be there the day you sell either

tanko

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Yes in one block however he paddocked it. Real simple method stuck water troughs into middle of the fields ran water pipe along the ground. He drove a few posts eith side of the water troughs and used pigtails and string to make paddocks.

Problems I see with sucklers most lads that have them even if not fragmented run them in 4-5 bunches. There the main bunch, a few culls, a few heifers, there is always an animal with a problem, then there is 2-3 togeather for some other reason. Other than that most suckler farmers are unwiling to paddock farms laods of lads set stock.

The second paragraph of tnis post is a big steaming pile of BS, like the vast majority of the rubbish you write about sucklers and the farmers that own them.

Bass Reeves

tanko wrote: »

The second paragraph of tnis post is a big steaming pile of BS, like the vast majority of the rubbish you write about sucklers and the farmers that own them.

When I look to buy stock I am looking for stock that need 10+ months to finish. I look for stock that are in the sub 400kg bracket. I also am not looking for U grade stock but mainly O and P stock. I am not looking for stock that are ready to be finished in 70-100days. Maybe it colours my opinion but most of the suckler farms I end up in are run like that. Believe it or not there are a porportion of dairy farmers like that as well. You go to any mart and you will see suckler bred cattle that have no better weight for age than dairy bred stock. If you go to any mart you will see suckler bred stock that are 15-18 months old that are sub 400kgs ( and often nearer 300 than 400). You will see dairy stock the same age that are 40-100kgs ahead.

Just an interesting statistic for you In Ireland the average suckler cow weans 0.8 calves every year. So i am not BSing as you put it. My young lad bought a bunch of 8 AA bulls last September in the mart, suckler bred 335kgs ( they were in two lots of 4) they were April/May'17 born calves. I bought three LMX a month earlier 333kgs they were 27 months of age. I suppose it colours my opinion.

Welding Rod

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I buy a few cattle off farms. I notice the hardship lads carry on with. See lads renting land and there own only runninga 50-60% of what it is capable of. Not just bounds fences but internal fences. See lads giving cattle the run of 20-30 acres and no grass but feeding nuts or ration at the same time.

Friend of mine is renting 40 acres. He will finish nearly 30 heifers off it. They were bough lasy August about 320kg average. They will kill 270-280kgs DW. Over 20 will be finished off grass alone. He will also make over 300 bales of wich he will sell 200. As he is lowly stocked he takes in a bit of slurry. He hardly buys 5 ton of fertlizer. Nice tidy operation he will clear about 10-12K and only spends 12 hours a week farming.

He rents 40 acres and finishes 30 heifers.
These are bought in August, and have only 100 bales of silage available to carry them over winter. Just over 3 bales per head??????
So are they out wintered?
Even so .... 3 bales???

Do YOU, budget 3 bales per head to carry you through the winter?

30 cattle roaming 40 acres with 3 bales over winter, not likely to leave ground in condition to grow 300 bales plus keep them on finishing standard grass following spring / summer????

Somehow I get a whiff of pub talk here ....

kingdom fan

tanko wrote: »

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Yes in one block however he paddocked it. Real simple method stuck water troughs into middle of the fields ran water pipe along the ground. He drove a few posts eith side of the water troughs and used pigtails and string to make paddocks.

Problems I see with sucklers most lads that have them even if not fragmented run them in 4-5 bunches. There the main bunch, a few culls, a few heifers, there is always an animal with a problem, then there is 2-3 togeather for some other reason. Other than that most suckler farmers are unwiling to paddock farms laods of lads set stock.

The second paragraph of tnis post is a big steaming pile of BS, like the vast majority of the rubbish you write about sucklers and the farmers that own them.

tanko wrote: »

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Yes in one block however he paddocked it. Real simple method stuck water troughs into middle of the fields ran water pipe along the ground. He drove a few posts eith side of the water troughs and used pigtails and string to make paddocks.

Problems I see with sucklers most lads that have them even if not fragmented run them in 4-5 bunches. There the main bunch, a few culls, a few heifers, there is always an animal with a problem, then there is 2-3 togeather for some other reason. Other than that most suckler farmers are unwiling to paddock farms laods of lads set stock.

The second paragraph of tnis post is a big steaming pile of BS, like the vast majority of the rubbish you write about sucklers and the farmers that own them.

I was reading that post thinking that's my biggest problem I have the main bunch with the terminal CH bull. I've the heifers and most 1st calvers with the Easier calved LM bull. The culls.( 44 big cattle in those bunches &40 calves in different fields) 2 sick yearlings. The later calvers. And 11 yearnings. All in different groups. All but d late calvers being strip grazed.
I've paddocks everywhere. Two electric main fences and two battery fences ( in case of a fault or whatever reason, 1in use today )

Water John

Wouldn't a bale a day do the 30 finishing heifers maybe less if on a good amount of ration?

Welding Rod

Water John wrote: »

Wouldn't a bale a day do the 30 finishing heifers maybe less if on a good amount of ration?

20 out of 30 of these heifers, are finished on grass alone!!!!
So pretty much no meal bill, and a net negative silage cost, as two thirds of all bales are sold.
These heifers fatten on thin air if you ask me!!

Bass Reeves

Welding Rod wrote: »

He rents 40 acres and finishes 30 heifers.
These are bought in August, and have only 100 bales of silage available to carry them over winter. Just over 3 bales per head??????
So are they out wintered?
Even so .... 3 bales???

Do YOU, budget 3 bales per head to carry you through the winter?

30 cattle roaming 40 acres with 3 bales over winter, not likely to leave ground in condition to grow 300 bales plus keep them on finishing standard grass following spring / summer????

Somehow I get a whiff of pub talk here ....

Last winter they were sub 400 kgs (about 370 average) going in. With paddocks he managed them outside until last week in November. He was back out to grass late February. On dry silage last winter I use to get nearly two days out of a bale last winter for a pen of 16 450-500kg Friesian steers. Heifers and coloured heifers at that eat less again

Count Mondego

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I bought three LMX a month earlier 333kgs they were 27 months of age. I suppose it colours my opinion.

27 months of age and they were 333kgs, is that a misprint or are you referring to their DW, Bass?

Bass Reeves

Count Mondego wrote: »

27 months of age and they were 333kgs, is that a misprint or are you referring to their DW, Bass?

No misprint 333 kgs at that age. Bought 18 months old friesians same day 390 kgs. They are not hanging yet are turning into serious cattle but getting finish on them will be an issue.

Like I say there is suckler farmers and sucker farmers.

Welding Rod

Bass Reeves wrote: »

No misprint 333 kgs at that age. Bought 18 months old friesians same day 390 kgs. They are not hanging yet are turning into serious cattle but getting finish on them will be an issue.

Like I say there is suckler farmers and sucker farmers.

Not to mention bluffer farmers.

Water John

The problem with the Fr is that it needs time.

Muckit

Water John wrote: »

The problem with the Fr is that it needs time.

That might not be a problem. When returns are poor and farming extensively with a biase towards biodiversity measures, what's the point in turning numbers?

FR are nice cattle when given time.

Bass Reeves

One or two would want to raed my post. i said that he made over 300 bales and sold 200 of them. Last winter was particularly short. The cattle were in a yard with 3 ring feeders. He used to feed 3 bales at the time. The bales used to last over 3 days I think. As he is paddocked he rotated them and closed from mid October but had cattle out until DFecember. There is fair eating in 40 acres. The whole farm was grazed this spring. he has 7-8 acres of traditional neadow this was grazed last in the spring. I think April 15th is closing date. It got imported slurry after closing this spring.

So far he has about 150 bales made. The Trad meadown will bring in either hay or silage. If he can he will get hay as it is easier sold but if the weather is long it will be cut and baled as silage. He factoried six heifers end of May FS 3= to 4-. There are more ready but he is inclined to hold for 2-3 weeks. He is grazing covers of 1400 ish I think. In old money he is stocked at 1.6LU units/HA but it is heifers so about 800kgs/HA for the month of May which I consider quite low stocking rate. From August on he will be stocked at 550kg/HA provied he has all his heifers bought for next year. I not sure why lads think it is a high stocking rate

I carry 59 2 years olds on about 65 acres or about 2LU/HA in old money. Because of having bullocks and heifers at a guess I am at slightly over 1200kgs/HA for the month of May. I am feeding 3kgs/head to 20 of them. At present I have 195 bales (low DM compared to previous years) but will have at least another 100 before the end of the year. My average winter is 120 days and cattle spend the winter on silage only.

Too many lads think extra weight equates to extra profit. They feed meal instead of concentrating on Grass. At present IMO there is no extra margin in feeding excessive amounts of ration. Every kg of flesh put on on grass is costing less than a euro. There was an article last week in the Journal in feedlots in the US they get a conversion rate of 6.5-1 at liveweight with Hormones. Taking an animal killing out 55%taht equates to nearly 12-1 per kg of DW. With ration at 2.4/kg it costs 2.88 to put on a kg of DW and taht is with Hormones and US ranch cattle(AA and HE in the Main). Without hormones there is little or no margin on it. That is why we concentrate on grass, I use a little ration to get bullocks into a reasonable FS. With heifers it is not necessary especially if stocked as low as him

Count Mondego

I'd say you're one of the shrewdest farmers posting here, and the most informative. Out of interest, the FRs that you kill at 3-4 years, what price /kg do you get for them, considering they're over age and grade low.

Bass Reeves

Count Mondego wrote: »

I'd say you're one of the shrewdest farmers posting here, and the most informative. Out of interest, the FRs that you kill at 3-4 years, what price /kg do you get for them, considering they're over age and grade low.

I would only have a few that go that old. Mostly they either come in a job lot and are a ring or else when I am at the mart and a light virtually overage lot come in. Usually you can slip one away in a load and get the same base price otherwise you take a 20c/kg hit off the normal base. For animals have QA on them I try to draw it. Most animals come in with a margin for going off grass, that margin will not increase by carrying animals much over 10-12 months. Margin re!wins the same if you carry them for 2 years. I am a store to finish so animals have to have a margin on them.

Most lads forget economics when looking at finished prices. A Fr calf with a value of 5 euro at 15-20 day old if done right could hit 1300 euro at 30 months at present prices ( as I buy as store's they will hit about 1200), with current processors weight limits a suckler steer seems to be limited to around 1600 euro at present prices. Economically is it viable to keep a suckler cow for the difference of 350 euro. Even if prices rise by 40 cent a kg this will only add 150 onto the suckler steer but the gap between him and the FR will only be another 50 -70 euro. You can look at other dairy crosses compared to the suckler such as HE, AA or Cont and the pricing is quite similar.

You have the options of bulls with them all but the economics are similar. For the last 5+ years bulls solved the economics of the suckler in that lads could throw a few ton of ration into them carry them to nearly 500kgs DW and let them come into 1600+ at sub 16 months or about 2000 euro sub 24 months. That has all changed with discounted prices on bulls taking 200 a head off them with higher ration prices

If you are an fairly efficient suckler farmer you will be an effective drystock farmer. Maybe for some the heifer rearing for dairy farmers is the option. For other remaining in sucklers his an option if the industry downsizes. For other agroforestry is the answer or maybe even forestry or partial forestry. But lads who thinking of grading or higher prices will solve there economics cannot do the maths. Grading will only add 14-20 euro to a steer and then only to U grade steers and higher pricing 100-150 euro neither will change drastically the economics of a suckler cows especially at 0.8 calves weaned/cow/ year.

20silkcut

I have 50/60 euro calves making€ 850-950 in the mart two years later without ever seeing a scrap of meal .
Keep them alive as calves and just let them off. Not saying it’s fantastic but I have calves I paid €200+ for , making €950 -1000 at the same mart.
What type of calves would you be better off buying???

Anto_Meath

I am of the opinion that years ago all farmers where more or less mixed farms, few sheep & pigs, some fowl, a few cows sending milk and then a few calves reared with some spuds and corn grown, that produce was then sold when money was needed. The idea was to have a few bob coming in all year round and each enterprise complemented the other. Beef farming is similar to this now, in that you can run a suckler to weanlings / stores together with beef enterprise. I feel you will always get the value of suckler bred cattle in the mart at any stage of their life. Then as a complementary enterprise rear a few dairy bred suck calves, once these are off milk they can run with the suckler herd (it actually keeps the lot quite) again these can be sold anytime depend on your system but to get the most out of them you need to be killing them. My rule is anything I think will grade an O /P is fed for the factory (small amount of meal to help fat score) as that is the only place you will get their true value. Anything better that usually goes to the mart as every lad around the ring knows the value of the quality one but very few know the value of the plainer one.

Cavanjack

20silkcut wrote: »

I have 50/60 euro calves making€ 850-950 in the mart two years later without ever seeing a scrap of meal .
Keep them alive as calves and just let them off. Not saying it’s fantastic but I have calves I paid €200+ for , making €950 -1000 at the same mart.
What type of calves would you be better off buying???

No meal even as calves?

20silkcut

Cavanjack wrote: »

No meal even as calves?

Just until a week after they go to grass.
That’s it.

I had a bunch of 5 cattle in the mart a few years ago they were almost finished were on 10kg of meal for 3/4 weeks before and lesser amounts previous to that again.
3 of them sold at €1200
2 of them sold at €1000
The 2 that sold at €1000 were heavier than the others.
They were probably claimed. I couldn’t bring them home on the day.
After that I said to hell with feeding meal.
Might change my mind again but as long as I’m getting €850 plus for €50 calves at 24 months. I won’t be bothering feeding meal at grass.

Welding Rod

20silkcut wrote: »

I have 50/60 euro calves making€ 850-950 in the mart two years later without ever seeing a scrap of meal .
Keep them alive as calves and just let them off. Not saying it’s fantastic but I have calves I paid €200+ for , making €950 -1000 at the same mart.
What type of calves would you be better off buying???

What does the calf live on, from day of purchase to say six months old?
No meal??
Milk replacer .... how much??
Is it really just a case as you wrote of “keep them alive”, feed them nothing but grass and winter silage, and cash them in at the mart two years later for €850 - €950.

Personally, I have never yet seen any animal who didn’t get a good start to life, ever make anything of themselves. I wouldn’t class a bit of maverick, and straight to grass with no meal as a good start to a calves life. I’d be looking at a pot belly, and restricted growth for ever more, if they actually survived that start. At least in my place, I would.

20silkcut

Welding Rod wrote: »

What does the calf live on, from day of purchase to say six months old?
No meal??
Milk replacer .... how much??
Is it really just a case as you wrote of “keep them alive”, feed them nothing but grass and winter silage, and cash them in at the mart two years later for €850 - €950.

Personally, I have never yet seen any animal who didn’t get a good start to life, ever make anything of themselves. I wouldn’t class a bit of maverick, and straight to grass with no meal as a good start to a calves life. I’d be looking at a pot belly, and restricted growth for ever more, if they actually survived that start. At least in my place, I would.

Sorry I was misleading in the original post of course I feed them meal as calves. You’d never get them off milk if you didn’t. Feeding meal to calves is not expensive and I certainly was not advocating not feeding meal to calves. I was misleading. I meant they don’t see a scrap of meal as weanlings to 24 months.
I give them a bag and a half per head of milk replacer. Up the meal while weaning.
Get them out on fresh grass at 4/5 months and they turn inside out. Not by any means saying I’m doing everything right but it would make you question whether so called bad calves are that bad after all. I heard of a lad one time getting €1100 in the factory for a €5 jersey calf. That’s an extreme case but €50 to €100 friesian calf should make that in the factory consistently. If they have a bit of weight and your not stocked too tight and they have plenty of grass they can leave money behind.

270WIN

I reckon a lot of lads get caught up in the "journal/teagasc" method of farming ie spend as much as you can on meal/machinery/sheds and all will be fine. the shrewdest farmers around me are all farming fr bullocks to slaughter and couldnt care less about age or how they look. its all about the costs to them..i think they are right.