Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Twenty Grand · 09-01-2019 1:37pm

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

How do the working conditions compare ?

How does the cost of living compare?
How does the take home pay compare?
How does the euro/pound per hour worked compare?

professore · 09-01-2019 1:38pm

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

It's peanuts.

People with skills have to tolerate paltry 'starting salaries' for some reason, whereas general operatives get paid for the work they do.

Typical mendacious attitude of the begrudger.

.

In a skilled job you are a liability and a drain on those around you until you get up to speed. Once you are skilled you have lots of options. That's why the starting pay is low.

blanch152 · 09-01-2019 1:38pm

Green&Red wrote: »

I wouldn’t agree they are well paid, a nurse with five years experience is on about €38k. Throw in a shift bonus and it still wouldn’t clear €40k. For someone with a degree and the amount of s**t they have to put up with it’s not very well paid at all.

Having said that the job hasn’t changed since they decided to go into nursing. The argument that they don’t get as well paid as the other professions in hospitals is invalid too, they knew that going into it. They’re claiming it’s about patient welfare but them on more pay isn’t going to make more of them, it’s be the exact same care they’re delivering

It’s impossible to see how the government can give in, Brexit is on our doorstep, bend here and all the pay agreements are out the window, teachers, civil servants, guards will all be out on strike

They are well-paid compared to most European countries.

https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/health-at-a-glance-2015/remuneration-of-nurses_health_glance-2015-29-en#page2

This data shows that Irish nurses are the third-highest paid in the world behind Luxembourg and the US (figure 5.21).

The previous figure is interesting (figure 5.20). Nurses fare less well in Ireland if you express their pay relative to average wage. It is actually a status issue for nurses in Ireland about how their wages compares to the average person in Ireland, rather than how their wage compares internationally.

blanch152 · 09-01-2019 1:40pm

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Compared to a new entrant nurse in the English NHS, a new entrant nurse in Ireland earns 21 per cent more in basic pay based on current exchange rates. While allowances and promotional opportunities differ across jurisdictions, a nurse at the top of the HSE staff nurse scale would earn 39 per cent more than a nurse at the top of the NHS England B and 5 scale.

“More broadly, OECD nursing remuneration data show that, in purchasing power parity terms, Irish nursing pay (including allowances and premium payments) between 2007 and 2017 was consistently on a par with Australia and higher than New Zealand, Canada and the UK,” notes the spending review.

It also maintains that 82 per cent of all nurses and midwives are on basic salaries of more than €40,000 exclusive of allowances or premium payments.

Stop using facts

Twenty Grand · 09-01-2019 1:42pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Stop using facts

So our nurses are just slightly less f*cked over than UK nurses.
That's great to hear.

Also conditions in the US and Australia are far and away better than here, so you're still not comparing like for like.

09-01-2019 1:50pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

How does the cost of living compare?
How does the take home pay compare?
How does the euro/pound per hour worked compare?

In London it’s hard to get anywhere affordable to live. Starting salary is around £25,000 for newly qualified rising to a maximum of £50,000 at top level.

Green&Red · 09-01-2019 2:20pm

blanch152 wrote: »

They are well-paid compared to most European countries.

https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/health-at-a-glance-2015/remuneration-of-nurses_health_glance-2015-29-en#page2

This data shows that Irish nurses are the third-highest paid in the world behind Luxembourg and the US (figure 5.21).

The previous figure is interesting (figure 5.20). Nurses fare less well in Ireland if you express their pay relative to average wage. It is actually a status issue for nurses in Ireland about how their wages compares to the average person in Ireland, rather than how their wage compares internationally.

I wouldn’t agree it’s a status issue. They are being compared to average wages but that affects average costs also and ur ability to afford these things. It’s overly simplistic to say they’re better paid than other nurses without taking in the economy as a whole. UK salaries are well below ROI salaries

Mad_maxx · 09-01-2019 2:26pm

lilblackdress wrote: »

The reason that complaints of conditions are being tied into a pay rise is we cannot keep nursing staff in Ireland due to crap pay. Nurses go off elsewhere to earn more and cannot be blamed for that... that means less nurses which in turn means worse conditions and poorer care which leads to even less nurses.

In my opinion, people who think nurses don't deserve more either don't know how much they actually come out with a month for the work they put in or they have never had to sit and watch what a nurse actually has to do.... many people walk up to a nurses station and assume nurses are sitting doing nothing and unfortunately that is generally so far from the truth. The amount of documentation alone and lack of time to adequately fill it in is extremely difficult.

Nurses are the only healthcare professional that is present 24/7. (13 hour shifts, 7 night shifts in a row, 1 free day worked a month etc). Yes doctors are on call in acute hospitals and care assistants who are amazing are being pulled away from patient care to do other tasks... nurses are the ones that tie the rest of the healthcare teams plans together to make their own plans. A typical day for a nurse 15 years ago was filled moreso with patient care than what it is now..... now it's scrimping for staff, trying to manage everyone in an effective and safe way and watching your nursing pin as best you can knowing that any day you walk in you could lose it due to lack of patient safety because of staff shortages and an increase in documentation.

Morale is low, No matter what they do they can never do enough. Compassion fatigue is rife and nurses need a break and support from those they always strive to do their best for.... the public

Thanks Liam doran

Sycamore Tree · 09-01-2019 2:26pm

I am convinced we are heading towards a sharp global recession so the govt need to be careful.

I would welcome teachers wages being cut and diverted to nurses. Teachers are overpaid and have it very soft.

We need a new round of benchmarking which is based on real world data to show how overpaid many of our public servants are. The previous benchmarking was simply a FF vote buyer.

NSAman · 09-01-2019 2:29pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Yep, and that's why they're striking.

Understaffed and not able to give the correct level of care.

Paid so little that no one wants to do the job. Nurses leaving in droves. African and asian nurses with questionable credentials and poor language skills who probably can't get work in a higher paying country coming in.

There's hardly a ward in the country thats fully staffed. Plenty of closed wards because they don't have the nurses to run them.

BS... they didn’t give a damn.... and my mother WAS a nurse!!

There are some great nurses out there. But please stop with this nurses are angels crap. There are some ignorant lazy self opinionated nurses out there also.

The HSE is a shambles and is not helped by staff that dont care. If you think this is an isolated incident, it isnt.

Nurses need to suck it up and if you dont like your job leave and do something else.

Mad_maxx · 09-01-2019 2:36pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

They can't get staff cause the wages are too low, far better money in England for example. Strugglign to bring in foreign staff (a backbone of the sector) for the same reason, many are going to Australia or America where possible cause the money is better.

There is a recruitment drive, and loads of positions available, but if your conditions aren't attactive you will struggle to fill the positions.

As for Union greed... lol. Nurses are woefully underpaid based on time to qualification, responsibilities and working hours. Nursing is an undervalued public service role.

Wages for the public sector in England are far lower than here across the board and being paid in pounds is looking like a bum deal more by the day

Mad_maxx · 09-01-2019 2:40pm

Jude13 wrote: »

Again with PS jobs don't get hoodwinked by salary headlines, you need to compare the full package, pension contributions, leave, job security etc. It's all tosh.

Indeed, the same sh1te talk re the guards starting off a while back, 23k, complete crap, that's the basic out of templemore but basic for guards tells you zilch, no guard is on less than 33 k and aren't long on that.

Mad_maxx · 09-01-2019 2:41pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

How much do you think someone should be paid to look after you, wash and dress you, lift you up, maybe wipe your own h*le if you can't do that?

Nurses don't wipe anyone and haven't in years

Mad_maxx · 09-01-2019 2:42pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

My wife is on the top scale, has premium payments (pediatrics) and isn't bringing home 57k.

Neat trick of the public sector is to only ever report after tax as pay, hardly anyone is on 55k NET

Mad_maxx · 09-01-2019 2:45pm

Green&Red wrote: »

I wouldn’t agree they are well paid, a nurse with five years experience is on about €38k. Throw in a shift bonus and it still wouldn’t clear €40k. For someone with a degree and the amount of s**t they have to put up with it’s not very well paid at all.

Having said that the job hasn’t changed since they decided to go into nursing. The argument that they don’t get as well paid as the other professions in hospitals is invalid too, they knew that going into it. They’re claiming it’s about patient welfare but them on more pay isn’t going to make more of them, it’s be the exact same care they’re delivering

It’s impossible to see how the government can give in, Brexit is on our doorstep, bend here and all the pay agreements are out the window, teachers, civil servants, guards will all be out on strike

Who hasn't a "degree" today?

Mad_maxx · 09-01-2019 2:47pm

blanch152 wrote: »

They are well-paid compared to most European countries.

https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health/health-at-a-glance-2015/remuneration-of-nurses_health_glance-2015-29-en#page2

This data shows that Irish nurses are the third-highest paid in the world behind Luxembourg and the US (figure 5.21).

The previous figure is interesting (figure 5.20). Nurses fare less well in Ireland if you express their pay relative to average wage. It is actually a status issue for nurses in Ireland about how their wages compares to the average person in Ireland, rather than how their wage compares internationally.

To most Irish people, the word nurse illicits the same emotional reaction as fluffy kittens, they could demand 10k per week and a majority would instinctively support them

2011abc · 09-01-2019 2:55pm

Can there be even an iota of doubt that loads of these posts come from FG HQ at this stage ?! Hope the nurses get what they want ( and I’d far sooner see my tax € go into hospitals and nurses salaries than landlords pockets , direct provision providers , bankers, Quango board members etc

MrMusician18 · 09-01-2019 3:19pm

2011abc wrote: »

Can there be even an iota of doubt that loads of these posts come from FG HQ at this stage ?! Hope the nurses get what they want ( and I’d far sooner see my tax € go into hospitals and nurses salaries than landlords pockets , direct provision providers , bankers, Quango board members etc

After my experience in A and E over Christmas, nurses should not get a pay increase since they do not deserve one.

uch · 09-01-2019 3:35pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Who hasn't a "degree" today?

Me

09-01-2019 3:37pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Who hasn't a "degree" today?

Me

Twenty Grand · 09-01-2019 4:14pm

NSAman wrote: »

BS... they didn’t give a damn.... and my mother WAS a nurse!!

There are some great nurses out there. But please stop with this nurses are angels crap. There are some ignorant lazy self opinionated nurses out there also.

The HSE is a shambles and is not helped by staff that dont care. If you think this is an isolated incident, it isnt.

Nurses need to suck it up and if you dont like your job leave and do something else.

Yes, most nurses don't care. That's why they're busting themselves daily in overcrowded, understaffed wards.

You do realise the problem is that nurses ARE packing up and moving, and thats the problem?

Wheeliebin30 · 09-01-2019 4:17pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Yes, most nurses don't care. That's why they're busting themselves daily in overcrowded, understaffed wards.

You do realise the problem is that nurses ARE packing up and moving, and thats the problem?

But we only heard today they aren’t and that turnover is 6% which is very low.

I’m not believing this narrative been peddled by the unions.

hawkelady · 09-01-2019 4:19pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Nurses don't wipe anyone and haven't in years

Well that’s BS because I only recently witnessed two nurses clean up blood from an elderly lady who bled all over the bed , it was horrific to witness but there you have it !! Nurses do clean up.

Mitch Connor · 09-01-2019 4:22pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

After my experience in A and E over Christmas, nurses should not get a pay increase since they do not deserve one.

What was your issue with the nurses?

Twenty Grand · 09-01-2019 4:25pm

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

But we only heard today they aren’t and that turnover is 6% which is very low.

I’m not believing this narrative been peddled by the unions.

Well turnover is when you replace a leaving staff member with a new one.

If someone leaves and isn't replaced, is it turnover?

ELM327 · 09-01-2019 4:28pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Well turnover is when you replace a leaving staff member with a new one.

If someone leaves and isn't replaced, is it turnover?

That's attrition, which is worse than turnover for a business unless it's intended attrition as gradual cost cutting/downsizing.

mariaalice · 09-01-2019 4:35pm

If its such a marvellous job how come there are always shortages of nurses and not just in Ireland. I do think there is an element of chancing there arm on this one pay increases wont improve working conditions. They pay is alright not fantastic but not dreadful either.

The younger generation are a lot more confident and savey and won't put up with what former generations put up with and they have a lot more options if it dose not suit them.

mariaalice · 09-01-2019 4:38pm

Also the HSE cant concede on this one because of the follow on clams from other groups that are watching this from the wings.

MrMusician18 · 09-01-2019 4:38pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

What was your issue with the nurses?

Extremely poor attitude. Urgently required medication not provided until after 7.5hrs after first presenting and after several times of asking and being rudely dismissed. I'd probably be waiting there still for medication if I didn't find the one nurse there that gave a ****.

Three patients, one with serious health complications was left all night without medication, requested several times of course.

That's not too mention the bickering between the nurses and junior doctors in front of the patients.

You could of course put this down to understaffing, and that is an issue. But the attitude of some of the nurses forgetting that they were dealing with very sick people, phoning it in, certainly made me question the caring narrative the unions paint. And that has nothing to do with pay or conditions. A lot of them really couldn't care less about you if they tried.

TheRiverman · 09-01-2019 5:00pm

The working conditions is one the biggest problems here.The amount of responsibility loaded on nurses is ridiculous.If a health care worker on the ward with a nurse makes a mistake,the nurse is responsible.Also health care workers have way less responsibilities here than in other countries.That has to change.

Emme · 09-01-2019 5:02pm

Nurses' pay and conditions should be improved all round.

mariaalice · 09-01-2019 5:22pm

Threads about nurses are fascinating on boards always brings out the, misogynists, those irrational dislike of anyone with a public service type job, those who are irritated by any regard for nurses etc., and very few who acutely know what they are talking about.

There is spin from the unions but that is the nature of unions, and it has very little to do with work of the front line staff.

Amirani · 09-01-2019 5:33pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Threads about nurses are fascinating on boards always brings out the, misogynists, those irrational dislike of anyone with a public service type job, those who are irritated by any regard for nurses etc., and very few who acutely know what they are talking about.

Bit sexist there? I haven't seen any anti-woman remarks or criticism. Are you equating any criticism of nurses as criticism of women?

mariaalice · 09-01-2019 5:34pm

Amirani wrote: »

Bit sexist there? I haven't seen any anti-woman remarks or criticism. Are you equating any criticism of nurses as criticism of women?

Its not just this thread.

mariaalice · 09-01-2019 5:43pm

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Average staff nurse pay in Ireland is €57k as referenced in a Dail committee in the last few weeks. This includes premium payments which add - according to the unions themselves - approx 25% to the salary of the average nurse. The number of nurses (if any) on the 'plain' scale with no extras is tiny. I always find it amusing that people contort themselves to deny the simple truth that nurses in Ireland are paid very well. Or do they think that the Dept of Health are lying?

They work 13 hour shifts because they want to - guaranteed premium payments, plus 3 or 4 days a week off. If I could work 3 x 13 hour days rather than 5 x 8, I'd jump at the chance.

The long days were brought in by the health boards in the 1980s as a cost saving. This is the kind of bizarre responses on boards basically jealously of someone one working their hours over 3 days instead of 5.

hawkelady · 09-01-2019 5:49pm

Amirani wrote: »

Bit sexist there? I haven't seen any anti-woman remarks or criticism. Are you equating any criticism of nurses as criticism of women?

Maybe read over the whole thread. There was one sexist comment .. along the lines of cause the majority of nurses are women they can’t organize themselves unlike the pna where they are mainly men !

Emme · 09-01-2019 5:54pm

welltodo wrote: »

hopefully

but the way varadker is i'd say he'll cut their pay so they have to go to australia and then he'll bring in his own kind

His own kind? If you mean doctors that would be great but we don't want any more politicians thanks.

Lefty Bicek · 09-01-2019 5:55pm

Amirani wrote: »

Bit sexist there? I haven't seen any anti-woman remarks or criticism. Are you equating any criticism of nurses as criticism of women?

Read the thread properly.

They’re a perfect example of when you get too many females working in one area, very little gets achieved apart from becoming eternal martyrs and whining.

If this is not a misogynistic generalisation, then what is ?

Mooooo · 09-01-2019 6:06pm

Hire enough nurses to do the 3 x 8 hr shifts Mon to Thurs and 2×12 hr shifts fri to Sun. Lower cost per hour than overtime but higher cost 're pensions etc. A month of each shift so a month of Mon to Thurs earlies, days or late shifts and a month of Fri to Sun early or late shifts. Prob won't be done as unions won't want the reduced pay if overtime is reduced.

Amirani · 09-01-2019 6:09pm

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Read the thread properly.

If this is not a misogynistic generalisation, then what is ?

Hadn't seen that. Apologies to mariaalice, my mistake!

mariaalice · 09-01-2019 6:21pm

Mooooo wrote: »

Hire enough nurses to do the 3 x 8 hr shifts Mon to Thurs and 2×12 hr shifts fri to Sun. Lower cost per hour than overtime but higher cost 're pensions etc. A month of each shift so a month of Mon to Thurs earlies, days or late shifts and a month of Fri to Sun early or late shifts. Prob won't be done as unions won't want the reduced pay if overtime is reduced.

It does not work like that the staff have to be there one way or the other nomatte how its done allowances are not overtime that is what you are mixing up.

A well know political talk show host was baldering on that Scans ect should be done on a 24 hour bases and the staff made work shifts the person he was interviewing pointed out that it would require triple the staff i.e. 3 x 8 hour shifts but the interviewer keep saying no just make the current staff work shifts he just could not see his mistake.

Edgware · 09-01-2019 6:26pm

We all think of the hard working nurses in the A and E who deserve to be paid well. But like all public service jobs there is a good share of handy numbers such as taking blood samples, assisting the specialist at clinic etc where they are not under pressure

mariaalice · 09-01-2019 6:33pm

Emme wrote: »

His own kind? If you mean doctors that would be great but we don't want any more politicians thanks.

This has to be a record for boards the racists managed to work their agenda in to a thread about nurses pay.

TheDoc · 09-01-2019 6:44pm

professore wrote: »

The reality is we pay one of the highest costs per capita for quite frankly a poor health service. Seeing my mother in excruciating pain for 3 years waiting for a hip replacement was ample evidence of that. Now I'm not blaming nurses for that but a root and branch reform of the health service is needed. It's not a bottomless pit.

Can have all the root and branch review we want. There are some simple problems with simple solutions about the bloated management structure in the HSE and the wasted salaries, but it's nigh on impossible to let go, fire or cut any of this waste due to unions or historical agreements and stuff.

Some big win solutions have been obvious to probably the last 2-3 governments. But reality is there is probably little they can do considering how our political system works and the pressures on TD's and governments for constant re-election.

No government is going to move forward with dismantling the bloat in the HSE, especially considering so many of the stakeholders were probably supporters of these groups historically.

Mooooo · 09-01-2019 6:45pm

mariaalice wrote: »

It does not work like that the staff have to be there one way or the other nomatte how its done allowances are not overtime that is what you are mixing up.

A well know political talk show host was baldering on that Scans ect should be done on a 24 hour bases and the staff made work shifts the person he was interviewing pointed out that it would require triple the staff i.e. 3 x 8 hour shifts but the interviewer keep saying no just make the current staff work shifts he just could not see his mistake.

As I said hire more nurses. If they are doing more hours than the standard week they are getting overtime or allowances for it. There are so many hours in the week, they all have to be covered so more nurses on a standard number of hours makes sense, particularly in a&e etc

mariaalice · 09-01-2019 6:53pm

Mooooo wrote: »

As I said hire more nurses. If they are doing more hours than the standard week they are getting overtime or allowances for it. There are so many hours in the week, they all have to be covered so more nurses on a standard number of hours makes sense, particularly in a&e etc

If only people only got sick 9 to 5 it just dose not work the way you think.

Wanderer2010 · 09-01-2019 7:00pm

Why one earth would you want to be a nurse in this country? The odds are stacked against you from the off, between low wages, extremely high levels of stress and responsibility, working shifts and long hours. Internal politics and trying to contact the highers-up to make your case. It seems pure sadism to me- if you really want to do it and its your calling, head off to Dubai or even Britain where conditions are much better.

I can safely say im earning at least twice the average nurse wage and I don't have a fraction of their stress. There are lots of jobs out there where you can clock in, do your job and not feel like a shell when you clock out. Seriously, its a mess in the nursing profession, find a new career.

Alrigghtythen · 09-01-2019 7:05pm

mariaalice wrote: »

If only people only got sick 9 to 5 it just dose not work the way you think.

You'd think someone would tell people it's not a 9-5 job before they apply. Because I am shocked to find this out.

Tell me how · 09-01-2019 7:06pm

wat24 wrote: »

The average salary really are averages due to the high earners who are usually in management. I’m 6 years qualified and on 36,000. Most of the nurses working with me are on around the same. There’s far too many bed managers and nurse managers working admin roles that aren’t hands on frontline care. That’s where the money is going

If this is the case, why aren't nurses striking for structural change.

Every time I'm in a hospital I see nurses doing jobs I think I would find very hard to do. Mentally and physically it must be very difficult. But, if they are on an average of 57K with 3k more due on agreed rises as part of the current deal before the end of 2020, I find it hard to argue for a pay rise now.

The average indicates the money is in the system. It just shows the structure is messed up.

TheRiverman · 09-01-2019 7:14pm

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Why one earth would you want to be a nurse in this country? The odds are stacked against you from the off, between low wages, extremely high levels of stress and responsibility, working shifts and long hours. Internal politics and trying to contact the highers-up to make your case. It seems pure sadism to me- if you really want to do it and its your calling, head off to Dubai or even Britain where conditions are much better.

I can safely say im earning at least twice the average nurse wage and I don't have a fraction of their stress. There are lots of jobs out there where you can clock in, do your job and not feel like a shell when you clock out. Seriously, its a mess in the nursing profession, find a new career.

Finding a new career doesn't solve the problems for nurses staying within the HSE.It only solves the problem for the person(s) who leave or who decide not to go into nursing at all.Running away from this broken system is not going to fix it.We need our nurses happy and stress free at their job.

Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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