"taking the soup"

JoeSchmoe · 19-01-2008 4:47pm #1

Have you heard of this expression? in relation to the time of the famine or other times of great hunger and poverty when soup kitchens were set up around the country but in order to get some of this, in a lot of cases, life saving nourishment irish catholics had to either a) renounce their religion b) make their name more English sounding.

either of which would bring great same on the soup taker.

Can any provide any more info/links to this practice, was it a common occurence? or is it more of a mythical thing and used as a means of slander or perhaps a way of expressing other forms of calloboration?

ejmaztec · 19-01-2008 5:28pm

An 80 year-old aunt of mine mentioned this a few days ago. Harping back to her childhood in Kerry, she remembers her 94 year-old sprightly grandmother telling her that no-one in our family ever took the soup - and consequently never signed up for the C of I.

Mick86 · 19-01-2008 7:21pm

JoeSchmoe wrote: »

Have you heard of this expression? in relation to the time of the famine or other times of great hunger and poverty when soup kitchens were set up around the country but in order to get some of this, in a lot of cases, life saving nourishment irish catholics had to either a) renounce their religion b) make their name more English sounding.

either of which would bring great same on the soup taker.

Can any provide any more info/links to this practice, was it a common occurence? or is it more of a mythical thing and used as a means of slander or perhaps a way of expressing other forms of calloboration?

I think it's a myth more than anything. Like the joke about selling your O for a bowl of soup in the famine.:D

ejmaztec · 19-01-2008 8:53pm

There's a lot of soup here - no myth:

http://homepage.eircom.net/~archaeology/two/famine.htm

Hagar · 19-01-2008 8:59pm

Stop watching Killanaskully, it's not a reliable historical source.

ejmaztec · 19-01-2008 11:31pm

Hagar wrote: »

Stop watching Killanaskully, it's not a reliable historical source.

The only connection between my great-grandmother and Killinaskully is the age of the one-liners.:p

Capt'n Midnight · 20-01-2008 2:07am

There are a lot of new protestants in Dublin West , this has nothing to do with the good schools.

PDN · 20-01-2008 9:26am

There were undoubtedly cases of souperism that occurred during the famine, but it is impossible to say how widespread the practice was.

Of course the same thing happens all over the world today. For example, if a Catholic relief agency distributes food to starving Muslim refugees in Darfur, then some of those refugees are so impressed by this act of kindness that they look further into the religious motive that inspired the act of kindness. Some of these Muslim refugees consequently become Catholic. Indeed, many Catholic aid workers will tell you that they fervently hope for such an outcome.

If you were recording this for posterity then how you portray the event will depend on your religious standpoint. A devoted Catholic will emphasise the power of love expressed through charitable work. A Muslim will view the converts as traitors who sold out in order to receive aid.

One of the problems with Irish history is that much of it is recorded by bitter people (on either side of the sectarian divide). Undoubtedly Protestants hoped that aid efforts in the Famine would produce conversions, but did they actually refuse aid unless people converted? I would be interested to see objective evidence for that claim (ie not based on the testimonies of those on either side with an axe to grind).

silverharp · 20-01-2008 9:40am

I never met a prod called Murphy!

PDN · 20-01-2008 9:43am

silverharp wrote: »

I never met a prod called Murphy!

I know quite a few.

There will be 2 families of Murphys worshipping in our (non-Catholic) church this morning. However, I have noticed that Bridget Murphy seems fond of soup.

ejmaztec · 20-01-2008 12:07pm

What religion were the Murphys of Murphys Brewery in Cork? I read somewhere, in recent years, that they were the biggest exporters of grain during the famine.

Hagar · 20-01-2008 12:22pm

Did the production of Guinness suffer also?
Now that would have been a tragedy.

McArmalite · 20-01-2008 1:27pm

Good points there PDN. " For example, if a Catholic relief agency distributes food to starving Muslim refugees in Darfur, then some of those refugees are so impressed by this act of kindness that they look further into the religious motive that inspired the act of kindness. Some of these Muslim refugees consequently become Catholic......A devoted Catholic will emphasise the power of love expressed through charitable work. A Muslim will view the converts as traitors who sold out in order to receive aid.
". By the way, as Bull McCabe character points out in The Feild - " No priest died of hunger during the famine "

ejmaztec wrote: »

What religion were the Murphys of Murphys Brewery in Cork? I read somewhere, in recent years, that they were the biggest exporters of grain during the famine.

I remember a discussion on the famine a few years ago and Bertie's patriotic ( idiotic would be more like it), friend Eoghan Harris was in the panel interupting and shouting everyone down ( Harris was higher than usual it seems, even by his standards) about how Catholic Nationalists did this during the Famine, Catholic nationalists did that during the Famine etc citing the actions of the Murphy's of Murphy's brewery in Cork. An academic from the North replied to Harris that he was right, that wealthy Catholics had thrown people from their homes etc and not just in Cork, but all over the country. But he said, they weren't Catholic Nationalists, they were Catholic unionists. Castle Catholics as they would have been referred to back then. Automatically Harris shut up.

purple'n'gold · 20-01-2008 1:44pm

silverharp wrote: »

I never met a prod called Murphy!

I remember some years back, a particularly vicious “loyalist” terrorist in Belfast named Lenny Murphy. He used to kill Catholics for fun. The IRA done away with him, one of their more positive actions.

guinnessdrinker · 20-01-2008 1:46pm

silverharp wrote: »

I never met a prod called Murphy!

Lenny Murphy of the notorious Shankhill Butchers gang.

McArmalite · 20-01-2008 1:56pm

silverharp wrote: »

I never met a prod called Murphy!

There was a guy on RTE who used to read out readers letters etc called Arthur Murphy. 'Mailbag' I think was the name of the programme. He also was (is ? ) a presenter on radio. I remember he featured on a programme on Protetstants allienation on the overbearing influence by the Catholic Church on divorce etc.

Capt'n Midnight · 20-01-2008 2:00pm

PDN wrote: »

A devoted Catholic will emphasise the power of love expressed through charitable work. A Muslim will view the converts as traitors who sold out in order to receive aid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda) is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.

The five major Madh'hab (schools of Islamic jurisprudence) agree that a sane adult male apostate must be executed.[1] A female apostate may either be put to death according to some schools, imprisoned according to others.

Mac Williams on taking the soup
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2005/10/24/protestant-schools-are-bursting-at-the-seams

Snickers Man · 20-01-2008 2:17pm

silverharp wrote: »

I never met a prod called Murphy!

There are numerous protestants callled Murphy. It is the most common surname in Ireland and with centuries of intermarriage and the occasional "taking of the soup (or the shilling)" it is inevitable that such a name should cross over into Protestant families.

Lenny Murphy, the "Master Butcher" was even described by the RUC as Ulster's number one bastard. And there was some pretty fierce competition for that title.

It is true that somebody called Murphy is more likely to be Catholic than Protestant, but in fact surnames are not the best indicator of an Irish person's religion. Names of Republican heroes like Adams and Sands are clearly of planter origin. And as for de Valera....

When I were a lad, the most reliable way to spot a Protestant was via their first name. If you meet an Irishman aged 45+ called Trevor, Mervyn, Nigel, Stanley, Keith or Colin or with a surname as a first name like Graham, Harrison, Cameron, Craig or Scott then you can bet a pound to a penny he's a prod.

Younger than that and it's less reliable. Nowadays if you meet somebody called Keith or Wayne or Jason they are from one of the "new middle class". working in the knowledge economy and probably living way out in the suburbs.

On the other hand, meet a girl called Sorcha or Niamh and she's most likely from South Dublin and votes Fine Gael or PD.

Slightly off topic but there you go.

Lux23 · 20-01-2008 2:25pm

Well maybe if the Catholic Church attempted to feed their parishoners it never would have been an issue.

McArmalite · 20-01-2008 2:34pm

Snickers Man wrote: »

There are numerous protestants callled Murphy. It is the most common surname in Ireland and with centuries of intermarriage and the occasional "taking of the soup (or the shilling)" it is inevitable that such a name should cross over into Protestant families.

Lenny Murphy, the "Master Butcher" was even described by the RUC as Ulster's number one bastard. And there was some pretty fierce competition for that title.

It is true that somebody called Murphy is more likely to be Catholic than Protestant, but in fact surnames are not the best indicator of an Irish person's religion. Names of Republican heroes like Adams and Sands are clearly of planter origin. And as for de Valera....

When I were a lad, the most reliable way to spot a Protestant was via their first name. If you meet an Irishman aged 45+ called Trevor, Mervyn, Nigel, Stanley, Keith or Colin or with a surname as a first name like Graham, Harrison, Cameron, Craig or Scott then you can bet a pound to a penny he's a prod.

Younger than that and it's less reliable. Nowadays if you meet somebody called Keith or Wayne or Jason they are from one of the "new middle class". working in the knowledge economy and probably living way out in the suburbs.

On the other hand, meet a girl called Sorcha or Niamh and she's most likely from South Dublin and votes Fine Gael or PD.

Slightly off topic but there you go.

So what would the south side's coolest couple - ' Dan & Becs ' be ?? Dan a Catholic, Becs a Protestant ??

I'm sure Ross O'Carroll-Kelly would be an 'RC' ?? A very non practising one though - " Loike, who could be bothered, Roysh "

ejmaztec · 20-01-2008 2:39pm

Would I be correct in assuming that, anyone in Ireland who wasn't starving during the famine, whatever religion they aspired to, didn't give a flying f*** about the peasants who were?

McArmalite · 20-01-2008 3:02pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Would I be correct in assuming that, anyone in Ireland who wasn't starving during the famine, whatever religion they aspired to, didn't give a flying f*** about the peasants who were?

Well, maybe it goaded the Catholic Church into doing more than just tokenism as they might have been afraid that they might be losing souls ( more should I say, influence ) to the heathen Protestant churches ? ?

ejmaztec · 20-01-2008 3:12pm

I just get the impression from this thread that those with money and full bellies regarded the "peasant" class in the same way as a lot of people now regard the travelling community.

Please correct me me if I'm wrong.

Mick86 · 20-01-2008 3:50pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Would I be correct in assuming that, anyone in Ireland who wasn't starving during the famine, whatever religion they aspired to, didn't give a flying f*** about the peasants who were?

You'd be incorrect. The Quakers, for instance, provided a lot of assistance. In today's terms approximately €14 million. And they did not require conversion to Quakerism in return.

ejmaztec · 20-01-2008 5:18pm

Mick86 wrote: »

You'd be incorrect. The Quakers, for instance, provided a lot of assistance. In today's terms approximately €14 million. And they did not require conversion to Quakerism in return.

That's a minuscule percentage of "blow-in" Quakers out of the equation, but what about the "comfortable" natives?

Hagar · 20-01-2008 6:29pm

I'm betting it wasn't Potato Soup.

ejmaztec · 20-01-2008 7:12pm

I suppose it would be possible for there to be a Wine Famine in France, should some people drink too much and not leave enough for the rest of the people.:p

Capt'n Midnight · 20-01-2008 7:36pm

Hagar wrote: »

I'm betting it wasn't Potato Soup.

yeah, probably turtle soup

http://dickens.stanford.edu/hard/issue3_gloss2.html

Turtle soup and venison

These were luxurious dishes available only to the wealthy. They were often served at banquets or official functions. Mrs. Beeton's Book of Household Management notes that "[a]s an article of luxury, the turtle has only come into fashion within the last 100 years, and some hundreds of tureens of turtle soup are served annually at the lord mayor's dinner in Guildhall." The book further discusses the cost of turtle soup:

This is the most expensive soup brought to table. It is sold by the quart,—one guinea being the standard price for that quantity. The price of live turtle ranges from 8d. to 2s. per lb., according to supply and demand. When live turtle is dear, many cooks use the tinned turtle, which is killed when caught, and preserved by being put in hermetically-sealed canisters, and so sent over to England. The cost of a tin, containing 2 quarts, or 4 lbs., is about £2, and for a small one, containing the green fat, 7s. 6d. From these about 6 quarts of good soup may be made.

McArmalite · 21-01-2008 1:28pm

Hagar wrote: »

Did the production of Guinness suffer also?
Now that would have been a tragedy.

Hagar wrote: »

I'm betting it wasn't Potato Soup.

Oh Gawd, your SO FUNNY. Maybe we'll have a thread with jokes about the present day trajedy's like Darfur or Iraq, or the famine in Ethiopia or Cambodia or the concentration camps in WW2 ??

brianthebard · 21-01-2008 4:25pm

I'm fairly sure this is a myth, plus afaik most of the soup kitchens were run by Quakers, and you can be both Catholic and a Quaker, or even an atheist quaker afaik. So there'd really be no need to convert.

Hagar · 21-01-2008 7:52pm

McArmalite wrote: »

Oh Gawd, your SO FUNNY. Maybe we'll have a thread with jokes about the present day trajedy's like Darfur or Iraq, or the famine in Ethiopia or Cambodia or the concentration camps in WW2 ??

Do you want access to Lolocaust?:D

Mrs. MacGyver · 21-01-2008 7:56pm

silverharp wrote: »

I never met a prod called Murphy!

My mother's family are C of I and Murphy's (and Irish speaking!).

Anyway i live near Macroom where the famine had a devastating impact. As far as I know there were no converts. I don't think my family 'took the soup' they just married into the C of I. Do you think that it was a regional phenomenon?

See the following thread in another forum:

http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=28781

Fratton Fred · 21-01-2008 11:21pm

Considering the Victorians belief that the famine was God's vegence, it is believeable and I don't think any of the main Churches have changed tactics much since then either.

Would people really see their families starve out of principle though? personally I would convert to Judaism (and whatever "cuts" that involved:eek:) if it meant feeding my family.

kreuzberger · 21-01-2008 11:35pm

souperism as it was known was a widespread phenomenon . Although practised by numerous protestant sects it was also strongly condemned as a practice by many native Irish protestants who very often held the simple view that the starving and wretched were their fellow countrymen first and foremost . And the quakers who viewed it as a purely humanitarian issue . The majority of those who practised it werent from Ireland , but english protestant missionaries who saw in the holocaust an opportunity for converts . In reality it was much more an english thing than a protestant one .
As for the issue of breweries it was during this period that the Irish drinks industry , in particular its whiskey distilleries began to flourish for the simple reason that the grain used in distilling wasnt being used for human consumption any more , because people couldnt afford to eat it , and under free market economics the distilleries were the only people who could afford to purchase it , so they secured for a knock down price and various fortunes were made on the back of the destruction of their own people .

kreuzberger · 21-01-2008 11:41pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Considering the Victorians belief that the famine was God's vegence, it is believeable and I don't think any of the main Churches have changed tactics much since then either.

Would people really see their families starve out of principle though? personally I would convert to Judaism (and whatever "cuts" that involved:eek:) if it meant feeding my family.

it wasnt a matter of just changing ones religion but your entire personal philosophy and your way of life . soup kitchens would not have kept your family alive either in the midst of the plagues and diseases . community solidarity was the only chance families really stood . taking the soup meant turning your back on your community as well as the genuine belief you were putting your soul in immortal peril .
dont forget that prior to the potato blight education of catholics had been made illegal for hundreds of years . the only form of education most had was religious based .

PDN · 22-01-2008 10:31am

kreuzberger wrote: »

dont forget that prior to the potato blight education of catholics had been made illegal for hundreds of years . the only form of education most had was religious based .

Could you provide a source for this claim, that the education of Catholics was illegal for hundreds of years before the famine?

Hagar · 22-01-2008 10:41am

PDN wrote: »

Could you provide a source for this claim, that the education of Catholics was illegal for hundreds of years before the famine?

This link says gives a date for enactment of the penal Laws as about 1691. Maybe 160 odd years is not actually "hundreds of years" but it's still a long time.

Fratton Fred · 22-01-2008 10:55am

Hagar wrote: »

This link says gives a date for enactment of the penal Laws as about 1691. Maybe 160 odd years is not actually "hundreds of years" but it's still a long time.

that states that education was limited not illegal, it also says the act was never fully actioned. In fact, it looks like the Irish Catholics got off quite lightly compared to the English ones.

Are there any figures for the number of "Protestants" that died during the famine compared to the number of Catholics? (It would be interesting to see how they compare pro rata) I think the whole religion thing is a red herring, surely as ejmaztec says, this was a case of the "Haves" and the "Have nots".

PDN · 22-01-2008 10:58am

Hagar wrote: »

This link says gives a date for enactment of the penal Laws as about 1691. Maybe 160 odd years is not actually "hundreds of years" but it's still a long time.

Well, it's not even 160 years. Catholic schools were provided for by an Act of Parliament in 1782. Also, the penal laws forbade education by Catholics, not of Catholics. It was perfectly legal for Catholics to receive education at non-Catholic schools. What the penal laws did forbid was the the establishment of specifically Catholic schools. This is not just a matter of semantics. For example, Scientologists are, today, not permitted to run their own schools in Germany - but that does not equate to making the education of Scientologist children illegal.

The penal laws were a repressive piece of legislation that caused much injustice and misery. As such they deserve to be discussed. However, such discussion is hindered, not helped, by hysterical, overblown unhistorical twaddle. The fact that specifically Catholic schools were suppressed for 92 years is an important historical concern, but claims that "education of catholics had been made illegal for hundreds of years" have no place in a history forum.

PDN · 22-01-2008 11:01am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

that states that education was limited not illegal, it also says the act was never fully actioned. In fact, it looks like the Irish Catholics got off quite lightly compared to the English ones.

Are there any figures for the number of "Protestants" that died during the famine compared to the number of Catholics? (It would be interesting to see how they compare pro rata) I think the whole religion thing is a red herring, surely as ejmaztec says, this was a case of the "Haves" and the "Have nots".

I think that Catholics were certainly more likely than Protestants to be numbered among the "have nots".

Also, I have heard that emigration was easier for Protestants than for Catholics because some US States (particularly in the South) had laws restricting Catholic immigration. However, I have no sources for this. Any other posters ever hear of this?

Hagar · 22-01-2008 11:21am

PDN wrote: »

Well, it's not even 160 years. Catholic schools were provided for by an Act of Parliament in 1782. Also, the penal laws forbade education by Catholics, not of Catholics. It was perfectly legal for Catholics to receive education at non-Catholic schools. What the penal laws did forbid was the the establishment of specifically Catholic schools.

Can you imagine how much discrimination has to exist in a society before it is enshrined in the law of the land?

PDN · 22-01-2008 11:38am

Hagar wrote: »

Can you imagine how much discrimination has to exist in a society before it is enshrined in the law of the land?

History demonstrates that widespread discrimination need only exist for a few short years until it is enshrined in the law of the land. In fact, in the 16th Century, laws discriminating against Protestants or Catholics in England were enacted in the space of weeks depending upon the affiliation of the monarch in power at the time (Edward, Mary, Elizabeth etc).

Hagar · 22-01-2008 11:42am

Monarchs are bastards all the same, aren't they?
They just decide they don't like you, next thing you know you're just a paragraph in a history book.

PDN · 22-01-2008 11:46am

Hagar wrote: »

Monarchs are bastards all the same, aren't they?
They just decide they don't like you, next thing you know you're just a paragraph in a history book.

dodgyme · 22-01-2008 11:50am

Calling someone a 'soup drinker' is still an active insult along the West coast of Mayo. The famine lives long in psyche of people from the west.

Another term is 'stone breaker' pretty much the same insult. i.e. you took a place on one of the public relief schemes during that time.

Anyone who finds these terms difficult to comprehend need to take a trip to doolough in mayo to understand the setting for such feelings.

Fratton Fred · 22-01-2008 2:13pm

PDN wrote: »

What the penal laws did forbid was the the establishment of specifically Catholic schools

there are those who may welcome such a law once again

Fratton Fred · 22-01-2008 2:26pm

Hagar wrote: »

Can you imagine how much discrimination has to exist in a society before it is enshrined in the law of the land?

I doubt if there is any country in the world where this has not happened and is still happening.

DublinDes · 22-01-2008 3:07pm

McArmalite wrote: »

Well, maybe it goaded the Catholic Church into doing more than just tokenism as they might have been afraid that they might be losing souls ( more should I say, influence ) to the heathen Protestant churches ? ?

Why is the Catholic Church always blamed ? OK, I know they done a lot of wrong things, no question about it, but even when they do a charitable deed, they are still criticized for it ?? Are you a member of the Socialist Workers or some other looney left organisation ?

"taking the soup"

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