"taking the soup"

JoeSchmoe · 19-01-2008 4:47pm #1

Have you heard of this expression? in relation to the time of the famine or other times of great hunger and poverty when soup kitchens were set up around the country but in order to get some of this, in a lot of cases, life saving nourishment irish catholics had to either a) renounce their religion b) make their name more English sounding.

either of which would bring great same on the soup taker.

Can any provide any more info/links to this practice, was it a common occurence? or is it more of a mythical thing and used as a means of slander or perhaps a way of expressing other forms of calloboration?

ejmaztec · 19-01-2008 5:28pm

An 80 year-old aunt of mine mentioned this a few days ago. Harping back to her childhood in Kerry, she remembers her 94 year-old sprightly grandmother telling her that no-one in our family ever took the soup - and consequently never signed up for the C of I.

Mick86 · 19-01-2008 7:21pm

JoeSchmoe wrote: »

Have you heard of this expression? in relation to the time of the famine or other times of great hunger and poverty when soup kitchens were set up around the country but in order to get some of this, in a lot of cases, life saving nourishment irish catholics had to either a) renounce their religion b) make their name more English sounding.

either of which would bring great same on the soup taker.

Can any provide any more info/links to this practice, was it a common occurence? or is it more of a mythical thing and used as a means of slander or perhaps a way of expressing other forms of calloboration?

I think it's a myth more than anything. Like the joke about selling your O for a bowl of soup in the famine.:D

ejmaztec · 19-01-2008 8:53pm

There's a lot of soup here - no myth:

http://homepage.eircom.net/~archaeology/two/famine.htm

Hagar · 19-01-2008 8:59pm

Stop watching Killanaskully, it's not a reliable historical source.

ejmaztec · 19-01-2008 11:31pm

Hagar wrote: »

Stop watching Killanaskully, it's not a reliable historical source.

The only connection between my great-grandmother and Killinaskully is the age of the one-liners.:p

Capt'n Midnight · 20-01-2008 2:07am

There are a lot of new protestants in Dublin West , this has nothing to do with the good schools.

PDN · 20-01-2008 9:26am

There were undoubtedly cases of souperism that occurred during the famine, but it is impossible to say how widespread the practice was.

Of course the same thing happens all over the world today. For example, if a Catholic relief agency distributes food to starving Muslim refugees in Darfur, then some of those refugees are so impressed by this act of kindness that they look further into the religious motive that inspired the act of kindness. Some of these Muslim refugees consequently become Catholic. Indeed, many Catholic aid workers will tell you that they fervently hope for such an outcome.

If you were recording this for posterity then how you portray the event will depend on your religious standpoint. A devoted Catholic will emphasise the power of love expressed through charitable work. A Muslim will view the converts as traitors who sold out in order to receive aid.

One of the problems with Irish history is that much of it is recorded by bitter people (on either side of the sectarian divide). Undoubtedly Protestants hoped that aid efforts in the Famine would produce conversions, but did they actually refuse aid unless people converted? I would be interested to see objective evidence for that claim (ie not based on the testimonies of those on either side with an axe to grind).

silverharp · 20-01-2008 9:40am

I never met a prod called Murphy!

PDN · 20-01-2008 9:43am

silverharp wrote: »

I never met a prod called Murphy!

I know quite a few.

There will be 2 families of Murphys worshipping in our (non-Catholic) church this morning. However, I have noticed that Bridget Murphy seems fond of soup.

ejmaztec · 20-01-2008 12:07pm

What religion were the Murphys of Murphys Brewery in Cork? I read somewhere, in recent years, that they were the biggest exporters of grain during the famine.

Hagar · 20-01-2008 12:22pm

Did the production of Guinness suffer also?
Now that would have been a tragedy.

McArmalite · 20-01-2008 1:27pm

Good points there PDN. " For example, if a Catholic relief agency distributes food to starving Muslim refugees in Darfur, then some of those refugees are so impressed by this act of kindness that they look further into the religious motive that inspired the act of kindness. Some of these Muslim refugees consequently become Catholic......A devoted Catholic will emphasise the power of love expressed through charitable work. A Muslim will view the converts as traitors who sold out in order to receive aid.
". By the way, as Bull McCabe character points out in The Feild - " No priest died of hunger during the famine "

ejmaztec wrote: »

What religion were the Murphys of Murphys Brewery in Cork? I read somewhere, in recent years, that they were the biggest exporters of grain during the famine.

I remember a discussion on the famine a few years ago and Bertie's patriotic ( idiotic would be more like it), friend Eoghan Harris was in the panel interupting and shouting everyone down ( Harris was higher than usual it seems, even by his standards) about how Catholic Nationalists did this during the Famine, Catholic nationalists did that during the Famine etc citing the actions of the Murphy's of Murphy's brewery in Cork. An academic from the North replied to Harris that he was right, that wealthy Catholics had thrown people from their homes etc and not just in Cork, but all over the country. But he said, they weren't Catholic Nationalists, they were Catholic unionists. Castle Catholics as they would have been referred to back then. Automatically Harris shut up.

purple'n'gold · 20-01-2008 1:44pm

silverharp wrote: »

I never met a prod called Murphy!

I remember some years back, a particularly vicious “loyalist” terrorist in Belfast named Lenny Murphy. He used to kill Catholics for fun. The IRA done away with him, one of their more positive actions.

guinnessdrinker · 20-01-2008 1:46pm

silverharp wrote: »

I never met a prod called Murphy!

Lenny Murphy of the notorious Shankhill Butchers gang.

McArmalite · 20-01-2008 1:56pm

silverharp wrote: »

I never met a prod called Murphy!

There was a guy on RTE who used to read out readers letters etc called Arthur Murphy. 'Mailbag' I think was the name of the programme. He also was (is ? ) a presenter on radio. I remember he featured on a programme on Protetstants allienation on the overbearing influence by the Catholic Church on divorce etc.

Capt'n Midnight · 20-01-2008 2:00pm

PDN wrote: »

A devoted Catholic will emphasise the power of love expressed through charitable work. A Muslim will view the converts as traitors who sold out in order to receive aid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda) is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.

The five major Madh'hab (schools of Islamic jurisprudence) agree that a sane adult male apostate must be executed.[1] A female apostate may either be put to death according to some schools, imprisoned according to others.

Mac Williams on taking the soup
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2005/10/24/protestant-schools-are-bursting-at-the-seams

Snickers Man · 20-01-2008 2:17pm

silverharp wrote: »

I never met a prod called Murphy!

There are numerous protestants callled Murphy. It is the most common surname in Ireland and with centuries of intermarriage and the occasional "taking of the soup (or the shilling)" it is inevitable that such a name should cross over into Protestant families.

Lenny Murphy, the "Master Butcher" was even described by the RUC as Ulster's number one bastard. And there was some pretty fierce competition for that title.

It is true that somebody called Murphy is more likely to be Catholic than Protestant, but in fact surnames are not the best indicator of an Irish person's religion. Names of Republican heroes like Adams and Sands are clearly of planter origin. And as for de Valera....

When I were a lad, the most reliable way to spot a Protestant was via their first name. If you meet an Irishman aged 45+ called Trevor, Mervyn, Nigel, Stanley, Keith or Colin or with a surname as a first name like Graham, Harrison, Cameron, Craig or Scott then you can bet a pound to a penny he's a prod.

Younger than that and it's less reliable. Nowadays if you meet somebody called Keith or Wayne or Jason they are from one of the "new middle class". working in the knowledge economy and probably living way out in the suburbs.

On the other hand, meet a girl called Sorcha or Niamh and she's most likely from South Dublin and votes Fine Gael or PD.

Slightly off topic but there you go.

Lux23 · 20-01-2008 2:25pm

Well maybe if the Catholic Church attempted to feed their parishoners it never would have been an issue.

McArmalite · 20-01-2008 2:34pm

Snickers Man wrote: »

There are numerous protestants callled Murphy. It is the most common surname in Ireland and with centuries of intermarriage and the occasional "taking of the soup (or the shilling)" it is inevitable that such a name should cross over into Protestant families.

Lenny Murphy, the "Master Butcher" was even described by the RUC as Ulster's number one bastard. And there was some pretty fierce competition for that title.

It is true that somebody called Murphy is more likely to be Catholic than Protestant, but in fact surnames are not the best indicator of an Irish person's religion. Names of Republican heroes like Adams and Sands are clearly of planter origin. And as for de Valera....

When I were a lad, the most reliable way to spot a Protestant was via their first name. If you meet an Irishman aged 45+ called Trevor, Mervyn, Nigel, Stanley, Keith or Colin or with a surname as a first name like Graham, Harrison, Cameron, Craig or Scott then you can bet a pound to a penny he's a prod.

Younger than that and it's less reliable. Nowadays if you meet somebody called Keith or Wayne or Jason they are from one of the "new middle class". working in the knowledge economy and probably living way out in the suburbs.

On the other hand, meet a girl called Sorcha or Niamh and she's most likely from South Dublin and votes Fine Gael or PD.

Slightly off topic but there you go.

So what would the south side's coolest couple - ' Dan & Becs ' be ?? Dan a Catholic, Becs a Protestant ??

I'm sure Ross O'Carroll-Kelly would be an 'RC' ?? A very non practising one though - " Loike, who could be bothered, Roysh "

ejmaztec · 20-01-2008 2:39pm

Would I be correct in assuming that, anyone in Ireland who wasn't starving during the famine, whatever religion they aspired to, didn't give a flying f*** about the peasants who were?

McArmalite · 20-01-2008 3:02pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Would I be correct in assuming that, anyone in Ireland who wasn't starving during the famine, whatever religion they aspired to, didn't give a flying f*** about the peasants who were?

Well, maybe it goaded the Catholic Church into doing more than just tokenism as they might have been afraid that they might be losing souls ( more should I say, influence ) to the heathen Protestant churches ? ?

ejmaztec · 20-01-2008 3:12pm

I just get the impression from this thread that those with money and full bellies regarded the "peasant" class in the same way as a lot of people now regard the travelling community.

Please correct me me if I'm wrong.

Mick86 · 20-01-2008 3:50pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Would I be correct in assuming that, anyone in Ireland who wasn't starving during the famine, whatever religion they aspired to, didn't give a flying f*** about the peasants who were?

You'd be incorrect. The Quakers, for instance, provided a lot of assistance. In today's terms approximately €14 million. And they did not require conversion to Quakerism in return.

ejmaztec · 20-01-2008 5:18pm

Mick86 wrote: »

You'd be incorrect. The Quakers, for instance, provided a lot of assistance. In today's terms approximately €14 million. And they did not require conversion to Quakerism in return.

That's a minuscule percentage of "blow-in" Quakers out of the equation, but what about the "comfortable" natives?

Hagar · 20-01-2008 6:29pm

I'm betting it wasn't Potato Soup.

ejmaztec · 20-01-2008 7:12pm

I suppose it would be possible for there to be a Wine Famine in France, should some people drink too much and not leave enough for the rest of the people.:p

Capt'n Midnight · 20-01-2008 7:36pm

Hagar wrote: »

I'm betting it wasn't Potato Soup.

yeah, probably turtle soup

http://dickens.stanford.edu/hard/issue3_gloss2.html

Turtle soup and venison

These were luxurious dishes available only to the wealthy. They were often served at banquets or official functions. Mrs. Beeton's Book of Household Management notes that "[a]s an article of luxury, the turtle has only come into fashion within the last 100 years, and some hundreds of tureens of turtle soup are served annually at the lord mayor's dinner in Guildhall." The book further discusses the cost of turtle soup:

This is the most expensive soup brought to table. It is sold by the quart,—one guinea being the standard price for that quantity. The price of live turtle ranges from 8d. to 2s. per lb., according to supply and demand. When live turtle is dear, many cooks use the tinned turtle, which is killed when caught, and preserved by being put in hermetically-sealed canisters, and so sent over to England. The cost of a tin, containing 2 quarts, or 4 lbs., is about £2, and for a small one, containing the green fat, 7s. 6d. From these about 6 quarts of good soup may be made.

McArmalite · 21-01-2008 1:28pm

Hagar wrote: »

Did the production of Guinness suffer also?
Now that would have been a tragedy.

Hagar wrote: »

I'm betting it wasn't Potato Soup.

Oh Gawd, your SO FUNNY. Maybe we'll have a thread with jokes about the present day trajedy's like Darfur or Iraq, or the famine in Ethiopia or Cambodia or the concentration camps in WW2 ??

brianthebard · 21-01-2008 4:25pm

I'm fairly sure this is a myth, plus afaik most of the soup kitchens were run by Quakers, and you can be both Catholic and a Quaker, or even an atheist quaker afaik. So there'd really be no need to convert.

Hagar · 21-01-2008 7:52pm

McArmalite wrote: »

Oh Gawd, your SO FUNNY. Maybe we'll have a thread with jokes about the present day trajedy's like Darfur or Iraq, or the famine in Ethiopia or Cambodia or the concentration camps in WW2 ??

Do you want access to Lolocaust?:D

"taking the soup"

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