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Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments

  • #9452
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    fash wrote: »
    I think the EU's position is in part being driven by an interest of:
    1.not being seen to have caused a no deal Brexiter through intransigence;
    2. being seen to being open to alternative arrangements; and
    3. at least pretending that it believes such alternative arrangements exist just around the next corner.

    Completely wrong. The EU is not remotely interested in how anything is "seen". The EU is a rules based organisation and all of its relations - internal and external - are enshrined in law. The EU is being entirely consistent in demanding that anything agreed between the EU and UK be clear, unambiguous and legally robust.

    Waffle, either for public or domestic political consumption is tolerated as part of the political game but when ink goes on paper, the messing stops. The UK is learning this the hard way.


  • #9453
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,753 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Bit cynical wrote: »
    The thing is, however, that the insurance policy will pay out. It is not a case of "in the unlikely event that nothing else is agreed" the CU will come in to effect. If the UK enters into a transition period on the basis of the WA, the result is that NI will end up being in a customs union. It is really only a pretence that some alternative can be agreed. I think we can all agree that nothing beats a customs union from our point of view here in Ireland and therefore we will not agree to anything less.

    Better therefore from the UK's point of view (continuing the insurance policy analogy) to "pay out" now. Then the issue is out of the way politically. If the DUP have to be thrown under a bus eventually, better to throw them under the bus now and put this to the UK parliament. If rejected then no deal and the UK negotiates free of any obligation. If accepted, then the DUP are already thrown under the bus and Johnson is still in a better position.

    I don't think there would be a problem from the EU's point of view given it is merely, as pointed out, the insurance policy paying up.

    The worst thing from the UK's perspective would be to enter in to the transition period under the WA as is, pretending to find a solution that would nullify the backstop where one does not exist.

    I should add that I don't expect Johnson to go this far with his proposal. The point is that even if he did, he would be in a better position afterwards given his intention to leave on the 31st of next month.

    The real issue is that the UK don't want to pay out now. They don't want to face the consequences of the Brexit decision which forces them to choose GFA or Brexit.

    What they want it that the EU simply ignore NI and the border and essentially pretend that NI is still a part of the EU whilst telling everyone in NI (well the DUP at least) that they are not part of the EU anymore.

    Back in June 16 the UK could have let within a day if they could work out which option they wanted. TM decided in Dec 17 to keep in the GFA and Brexit and the way to do that was to remove NI from the UK in terms of trade and regulations. DUP had a fit and they rowed back. Since then nobody in the UK has been able to deal with the conundrum, and at this point they are reduced to telling the EU to simply trust them.


  • #9454
    Shelga
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,016 ✭✭✭Shelga


    Simon Coveney was on BBC radio this morning, he sounded more fed up than I've ever heard him before. He must be so tired of saying the same logical stuff over and over again, to people who couldn't care less about their closest neighbours that they oppressed for centuries. I'm sure he didn't enter politics to spend years of his life dealing with the Brexit fiasco. Anyway, I thought he came across extremely well, as always.


  • #9455
    ilovesmybrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭ilovesmybrick


    Shelga wrote: »
    Simon Coveney was on BBC radio this morning, he sounded more fed up than I've ever heard him before. He must be so tired of saying the same logical stuff over and over again, to people who couldn't care less about their closest neighbours that they oppressed for centuries. I'm sure he didn't enter politics to spend years of his life dealing with the Brexit fiasco. Anyway, I thought he came across extremely well, as always.

    In fairness it's amazing how he's managed to remain cool and collected over the years, especially in interviews with the UK media.

    For anyone who's interested it starts at 2:10 here


  • #9456
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,789 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Just a reminder that even if Johnson gets a deal through somehow and the EU compromises on the backstop, the tough part it still to start. And once the FTA is agreed it has to pass through all of the EU member parliaments and more before it can be ratified.

    https://twitter.com/CharlieBEU/status/1174704726975422464?s=20

    This is also ignoring that even if Johnson gets his new magical deal that solves the Irish border and allows them to have their own trade deal with the US, he doesn't have time to get the deal agreed, the legislation passed through both houses in parliament before the 31st October, which we should remember that he will not ask for a extension for any reason.

    If the Supreme Court rules for the government we have to start preparations for no-deal. There will be nothing stopping Johnson from proroguing parliament again on the 19th October for no reason as the courts will not get involved and parliament will not be sitting and he will not open it so they cannot do anything to stop it. The stakes are extremely high it seems to me.


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  • #9457
    Winters
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    ilovesmybrick wrote: »
    In fairness it's amazing how he's managed to remain cool and collected over the years, especially in interviews with the UK media.

    For anyone who's interested it starts at 2:10 here

    That was a very frustrating interview for him.


  • #9458
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,952 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    ilovesmybrick wrote: »
    In fairness it's amazing how he's managed to remain cool and collected over the years, especially in interviews with the UK media.

    For anyone who's interested it starts at 2:10 here

    That really was his best performance yet. Reasonable, calm, concise and clear. The interviewer really didn't know where to go.


  • #9459
    newport2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,607 ✭✭✭newport2


    First Up wrote: »
    Completely wrong. The EU is not remotely interested in how anything is "seen". The EU is a rules based organisation and all of its relations - internal and external - are enshrined in law. The EU is being entirely consistent in demanding that anything agreed between the EU and UK be clear, unambiguous and legally robust.

    Waffle, either for public or domestic political consumption is tolerated as part of the political game but when ink goes on paper, the messing stops. The UK is learning this the hard way.

    I agree with the fact that the EU is rules based, enshrined in law, etc and in your description of their consistent approach and that anything agreed will be rock solid.

    But I think it's critical to the EU how they are perceived. To appear to be intransigent or unreasonable just provides fodder to anti-EU nationalists in all EU nations.
    Also, the fact the EU consists of elected representatives from all 27 nations matters to how they are "seen". If/when the economic consequences from a no-deal brexit hit their nations, of course they will want it to appear that the EU was open to solutions until the last moment and the responsibility for a crash-out lies with the UK. They are politicians at the end of the day.


  • #9460
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,753 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    newport2 wrote: »
    I agree with the fact that the EU is rules based, enshrined in law, etc and in your description of their consistent approach and that anything agreed will be rock solid.

    But I think it's critical to the EU how they are perceived. To appear to be intransigent or unreasonable just provides fodder to anti-EU nationalists in all EU nations.
    Also, the fact the EU consists of elected representatives from all 27 nations matters to how they are "seen". If/when the economic consequences from a no-deal brexit hit their nations, of course they will want it to appear that the EU was open to solutions until the last moment and the responsibility for a crash-out lies with the UK. They are politicians at the end of the day.

    Anyone paying any attention can see that the EU have been as accommodating as possible. If Anti-EU types want to try to paint that line then they are faced with clear evidence to the contrary. 2 years, 2 extensions, changes in Dec 2017, changes to the original WA, continuing discussion despite the UK not giving any details (non-papers and they will detail proposals "when we are ready").


  • #9461
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,457 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    ilovesmybrick wrote: »
    In fairness it's amazing how he's managed to remain cool and collected over the years, especially in interviews with the UK media.

    For anyone who's interested it starts at 2:10 here

    that interviewer was quite rude and shouty - interrupting quite a lot - with a very arrogant tone. You could even hear him huffing at some points while Simon was laying reality out bare before him.

    Funny how I very rarely hear similar directed towards spoofing Brexiteers.

    Simon did well to not simply hang up.


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  • #9462
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    10000maniacs wrote: »
    Kwasi Kwarteng on Radio 4 this morning saying two years ago the EU would never discuss alternatives to the backstop and two years later they are now willing to do so.

    I am absolutely fine with them lying their heads off and taking credit for everything if they can get the backstop (by whatever name) through parliament.

    But I don't believe they can, because while it is OKish for us, the WA is a really bad deal for the UK. The LibDems will vote against, the ERG types hate it, and Corbyn has Johnson on the ropes and won't want to ring that Brexit bell and let him off the hook.


  • #9463
    newport2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,607 ✭✭✭newport2


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Anyone paying any attention can see that the EU have been as accommodating as possible. If Anti-EU types want to try to paint that line then they are faced with clear evidence to the contrary. 2 years, 2 extensions, changes in Dec 2017, changes to the original WA, continuing discussion despite the UK not giving any details (non-papers and they will detail proposals "when we are ready").

    Fully agree and I think a lot of that comes down to the EU behaving in a way that they want to be perceived, ie professional, reasonable, etc

    FWIW, the anti-EU types will see what they want to see anyway. It's how moderate people see it that matters.


  • #9464
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Why are British migrants referred to as "expats"? Does anyone know?
    The usage appears to depend on the relative economic powers of the two countries concerned.

    You go from a poor country to a rich country, you're an "immigrant" or "economic migrant".

    You go from a rich country to a poor country, you're an "expat".


  • #9465
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    newport2 wrote:
    But I think it's critical to the EU how they are perceived. To appear to be intransigent or unreasonable just provides fodder to anti-EU nationalists in all EU nations. Also, the fact the EU consists of elected representatives from all 27 nations matters to how they are "seen". If/when the economic consequences from a no-deal brexit hit their nations, of course they will want it to appear that the EU was open to solutions until the last moment and the responsibility for a crash-out lies with the UK. They are politicians at the end of the day.

    It is critical to the EU that it is seen to consistently apply the rules under which countries joined. That's the deal. If anyone doesn't like it they are free to leave - just like the UK.


  • #9466
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,457 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    robindch wrote: »
    The usage appears to depend on the relative economic powers of the two countries concerned.

    You go from a poor country to a rich country, you're an "immigrant" or "economic migrant".

    You go from a rich country to a poor country, you're an "expat".

    With British people - they don't need to go to a poor country to be an expat.


  • #9467
    Winters
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Anyone paying any attention can see that the EU have been as accommodating as possible. If Anti-EU types want to try to paint that line then they are faced with clear evidence to the contrary. 2 years, 2 extensions, changes in Dec 2017, changes to the original WA, continuing discussion despite the UK not giving any details (non-papers and they will detail proposals "when we are ready").

    it quite depends in which media bubble you live. if you only read the tweets of Stephen Barkley and Mike Pence recently you'd be of the opinion that the EU have been acting unreasonably.


  • #9468
    newport2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,607 ✭✭✭newport2


    First Up wrote: »
    It is critical to the EU that it is seen to consistently apply the rules under which countries joined. That's the deal. If anyone doesn't like it they are free to leave - just like the UK.

    Yes, but that does not mean they do not care how they are seen.


  • #9469
    ltd440
    Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭ltd440


    ilovesmybrick wrote: »
    Shelga wrote: »
    Simon Coveney was on BBC radio this morning, he sounded more fed up than I've ever heard him before. He must be so tired of saying the same logical stuff over and over again, to people who couldn't care less about their closest neighbours that they oppressed for centuries. I'm sure he didn't enter politics to spend years of his life dealing with the Brexit fiasco. Anyway, I thought he came across extremely well, as always.

    In fairness it's amazing how he's managed to remain cool and collected over the years, especially in interviews with the UK media.

    For anyone who's interested it starts at 2:10 here
    Coveney is clear, calm and concise as usual. even after the interviewer asks him has Barclays speech made us realise that brexit can a negative effect on ireland!!!!!


  • #9470
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,753 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    I am absolutely fine with them lying their heads off and taking credit for everything if they can get the backstop (by whatever name) through parliament.

    But I don't believe they can, because while it is OKish for us, the WA is a really bad deal for the UK. The LibDems will vote against, the ERG types hate it, and Corbyn has Johnson on the ropes and won't want to ring that Brexit bell and let him off the hook.

    Its only really bad in terms of what they are losing. And it has the constraints mainly because of NI. Without NI GB would already have left and be in the midst of a FTA negotiation.

    In the end, the situation the UK finds itself is entirely down to itself. It has led a call for beating the EU, people like Farage and many tories openly call out the failure of the EU, and the UK government have set out to compete directly and openly against the EU as the way to unlock the potential benefits of Brexit.

    Is it any surprise, therefore, that the EU has sought to protect itself from this obvious and clear threat? You, me, and everyone in the remaining EU are going to end up paying the price for any benefits given to the UK by the EU. Why should I have to pay for the decision of the UK?


  • #9471
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    newport2 wrote:
    Yes, but that does not mean they do not care how they are seen.


    As I said, they want to be seen as applying the rules. and can be trusted to do so.


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  • #9472
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,753 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    ltd440 wrote: »
    Coveney is clear, calm and concise as usual. even after the interviewer asks him has Barclays speech made us realise that brexit can a negative effect on ireland!!!!!

    That was a great response. The interviewer seemed to be of the view that its lucky the UK finally told everyone what the reality was as poor Ireland didn't seem to understand.

    Coveney response was perfect. Welcome to the table!


  • #9473
    ltd440
    Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭ltd440


    That was a great response. The interviewer seemed to be of the view that its lucky the UK finally told everyone what the reality was as poor Ireland didn't seem to understand.

    Coveney response was perfect. Welcome to the table![/quote]
    Yes, great response, after 3 years it must be difficult to not answer certain questions with 'FFS are you seriously asking that'


  • #9474
    fash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭fash


    First Up wrote: »
    POINT 1: Completely wrong. The EU is not remotely interested in how anything is "seen".


    POINT 2: The EU is a rules based organisation and all of its relations - internal and external - are enshrined in law. The EU is being entirely consistent in demanding that anything agreed between the EU and UK be clear, unambiguous and legally robust.

    Waffle, either for public or domestic political consumption is tolerated as part of the political game but when ink goes on paper, the messing stops. The UK is learning this the hard way.
    I disagree with your first point and your second point is aligned with what I am saying. Reducing the scope for Brexiters to argue that it is the evil intransigent EU causing all the pain reduces the medium term effectiveness of the Brexiters. They want as strong a break with the EU as possible and want to be able to blame the EU for that as much as possible as cover for remaking the UK in their own image.


  • #9475
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    fash wrote:
    I disagree with your first point and your second point is aligned with what I am saying. Reducing the scope for Brexiters to argue that it is the evil intransigent EU causing all the pain reduces the medium term effectiveness of the Brexiters. They want as strong a break with the EU as possible and want to be able to blame the EU for that as much as possible as cover for remaking the UK in their own image.

    That is just local UK politics. Nobody outside the UK gives a sh*t about that stuff.

    The EU is getting on with things. The UK is history; bye bye.


  • #9476
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Its only really bad in terms of what they are losing.

    Exactly, which is why Labour don't like it, they would prefer to ditch May's red lines and negotiate a Norway type deal.

    3 Labour MPs supported Mays deal at the first and second votes, 5 at the third. Given that voting against this time has the added attraction of beating Johnson yet again before the upcoming election, I think he would be lucky to get 5.


  • #9477
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,753 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    A crash out is a disaster for the Brexiteers. It is 100% the opposite of what they were hoping for. They planned that the UK would vote to leave, the EU would be go scared of the prospect that they would give the UK whatever they wanted, and as such they could prove that indeed life is far better outside the EU than being within it.

    But outside was based entirely on what they already had, in trade terms, with the EU but without all the banana laws! The only thing in terms of trade that was going to change is that any part of a current trade deal that the UK didn't like they would simply change and of course armed with this extra special position they could bestride the world making their own trade deals.

    Imagine being able to go to the US and be the perfect bridge to the EU. Access to the UK market but also totally free access to the EU market but without having to worry about the rules.

    A crash out, whilst of course it will be sold as being the best outcome, will actually show what Brexit really means. And that has the very real prospect of actually showing the UK population the real benefits of the EU, far more than any MP or PR campaign could do.

    It is why they have had to throw out this line about the EU bullying the UK, because otherwise they have to admit that this is exactly what was always going to be the outcome. But they have backed themselves into such a corner that they have little option but to place all bets on the very unlikely outcome that Crash Out will actually be OK.

    But that would go against every EU country which you can be sure are constantly looking at the cost v benefit of the EU. UK want us all to believe that they are the only country to have worked out the reality!


  • #9478
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,789 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    So today is the end of the 30-day deadline the UK imposed on itself to get a solution for the backstop. It seems documents has been handed over to the EU negotiation team. There is one huge chasm of a problem though,

    Fresh Brexit talks row as UK asks EU to keep its proposals secret
    Downing Street’s secrecy over its “underwhelming” Brexit proposals has caused a fresh rupture in the negotiations in Brussels.

    The row centres on a demand that the EU’s negotiating team treat a long-awaited cache of documents outlining the UK’s latest ideas as “Her Majesty’s government property”.

    Whitehall told the European commission team that the three “confidential” papers it had sent on Thursday evening should not be distributed to Brexit delegates representing the EU’s 27 other member states.

    Sources in Brussels said that in response the point was being made forcefully to the British negotiating team that all proposals would need to be made available for the EU’s capitals to analyse for talks to progress.

    So here is stupidity of the situation today, the UK has handed over proposals that needs to be discussed that could mean a deal can be reached. But the people that has to okay those proposals are not allowed to see them. How do those bright sparks think Ireland can okay the backstop proposals if we aren't allowed to see them? They really are that thick to think this strategy is a winning one for the UK and will win them friends.

    It all still only points one way, the UK wants to leave without a deal as all the work being done now is nothing but show as they have not approached the talks with any serious intent. The only saving grace for everyone is that Johnson is a liar so when he says he wants the UK to leave on the 31st October, deal or no-deal, he will hopefully be lying about it. It would be the luck of those who will be harmed the most that the promise he keeps is the one that causes the most harm.


  • #9479
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,753 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    And it also goes completely against the UK stated hatred of the EU anti-democratic nature that takes all power away from individual countries. What they are advocating is that the EU actually does act as a centralised coup without any input from the individual countries on the basis that to let the countries know what was happening, in their name, would be damaging.

    And you will have JRM, Francois on the TV telling us that the UK are all about democracy and people need a voice!


  • #9480
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Enzokk wrote: »
    It all still only points one way, the UK wants to leave without a deal as all the work being done now is nothing but show as they have not approached the talks with any serious intent.

    The purpose of the talks (or at least, all the talk about the talks) and of prorogation was to give the impression in the UK that stuff was happening and keep everyone off Johnson's back while he runs down the clock. There will be no new deal, there simply isn't time, never was.

    Johnson planned to dust off May's deal at the last minute and tell MPs that the EU talks were a bust, it is May's deal or No Deal.

    But Parliament already spiked that plan with the Benn Act. Johnson is carrying on with the plan because he's got nothing else, but it's going to be an extension no matter what he is saying, then an election and a referendum.


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  • #9481
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    ltd440 wrote: »
    That was a great response. The interviewer seemed to be of the view that its lucky the UK finally told everyone what the reality was as poor Ireland didn't seem to understand.

    Coveney response was perfect. Welcome to the table!
    Yes, great response, after 3 years it must be difficult to not answer certain questions with 'FFS are you seriously asking that'[/QUOTE]

    Also enjoyed Gavan Reilly on The View last night - blunt, but honest with the panel, and even then Ben Lowry was still insisting Dublin would cave!


  • #9482
    prunudo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭prunudo


    lawred2 wrote: »
    that interviewer was quite rude and shouty - interrupting quite a lot - with a very arrogant tone. You could even hear him huffing at some points while Simon was laying reality out bare before him.

    Funny how I very rarely hear similar directed towards spoofing Brexiteers.

    Simon did well to not simply hang up.

    I don't think the interviewer was even taking account of what Coveney was saying, seemed to be of the view that whatever Barclay and the Johnson government said was fact and that a politician from Ireland wouldn't have a clue about what he was talking about.


  • #9483
    Igotadose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,814 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    prunudo wrote: »
    I don't think the interviewer was even taking account of what Coveney was saying, seemed to be of the view that whatever Barclay and the Johnson government said was fact and that a politician from Ireland wouldn't have a clue about what he was talking about.

    Who was the interviewer? Struck me as an elderly has-been commentator that the BBC has by the handful. He was just sort of sneakily echoing what Barclay et al have been saying and being unhappy when Coveney demolished his talking points.


  • #9484
    Dytalus
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭Dytalus


    prunudo wrote: »
    I don't think the interviewer was even taking account of what Coveney was saying, seemed to be of the view that whatever Barclay and the Johnson government said was fact and that a politician from Ireland wouldn't have a clue about what he was talking about.

    I've seen a couple of interviews (in particular the one with Jonathan Powell on Newsnight) where the interviewer has been followed the exact same pattern of questions.

    "Is Ireland now realising how disastrous no deal would be" -> "Why won't the EU offer/accept alternatives?" -> Interviewee explains the reasoning of the backstop -> "So what you're saying is there really is no alternative to the backstop and it's completely necessary?"

    It's practically a script at this point. The Coveney and Powell interviewers both even used almost identical phrasing once they'd "realised" how important the backstop was to Ireland.

    We're caught in groundhog day at this point.


  • #9485
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,292 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I'm not really sure what to say to this - he's obviously hoping for a Darwin award...
    https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1174656247766900736


  • #9486
    Dytalus
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭Dytalus


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    I'm not really sure what to say to this - he's obviously hoping for a Darwin award...
    https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1174656247766900736

    I know it's a dumb thing to nitpick....but if the UK manages to leave Europe I'll be singularly impressed.

    How can someone be diabetic and so casually dismiss the prospect of dying because of it. He must really hate the EU.


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  • #9487
    Tropheus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭Tropheus


    Dytalus wrote: »
    He must really hate the EU.

    Remember the throngs of people protesting on the streets in the years before the referendum? Neither do I.

    This sorry mess just shows how easy it is to mobilise the gullible.


  • #9488
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Something tells me a person that stubborn would be a nightmare to deal with if there WERE any insulin shortages. That kind of guy who kicks up a fuss and demands preferential treatment despite appeals for patience. I'm sure his family would prefer he didn't die, I daresay there'd be a wife or husband distraught at his confident voxpop.

    This is what has been said for ages, Brexit no longer exists as a political decision; it's dogma, and direct democracy taken to an economically suicidal extreme. This fellow is an ideological martyr, Brexit is the paradise promised if he sacrifices his life and dignity.


  • #9489
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,912 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Steve Barclay sent packing today by Barnier to come up with a realistic proposal quick fast.

    Big pushback by the EU side today (including Coveney this morning) on the optimism from the British govt.


  • #9490
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,157 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Tropheus wrote: »
    Remember the throngs of people protesting on the streets in the years before the referendum? Neither do I.

    This sorry mess just shows how easy it is to mobilise the gullible.

    There was no working class movement behind Brexit either. Most of the leading Eurosceptics were right wing, middle class and university educated.


  • #9491
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,753 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Tropheus wrote: »
    Remember the throngs of people protesting on the streets in the years before the referendum? Neither do I.

    This sorry mess just shows how easy it is to mobilise the gullible.

    Absolutely. It is actually quite amazing how such a peripheral idea to most of the public, hence why most of them have no real idea what the EU actually does, has not become the great divide within the country.

    Whilst people may well have been unhappy with the EU, they certainly weren't as exercised as they currently are, as evidenced by that Voxpop where the guy is willing to die to get Brexit.

    It should act as a warning to all democracies, including our own, how quickly ideas can become mainstream and change the very nature of political discourse and indeed the direction of a nation.


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  • #9492
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,912 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    BREXIT: UK PM TOLD COLLEAGUES HE DOES NOT EXPECT TO BE ABLE TO REACH FULL “LEGALLY OPERABLE” DEAL COVERING IRISH BORDER AT MEETING OF EU LEADERS - FT

    Quelle surprise


  • #9493
    Borderhopper
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭Borderhopper


    Dytalus wrote: »
    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    I'm not really sure what to say to this - he's obviously hoping for a Darwin award...
    https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1174656247766900736

    I know it's a dumb thing to nitpick....but if the UK manages to leave Europe I'll be singularly impressed.

    How can someone be diabetic and so casually dismiss the prospect of dying because of it. He must really hate the EU.

    There’s a saying in the north- “he/she kills dead dogs”. Sounds but weird, but it’s used to describe someone full of false, and vocal, bravado. You’ll know the type. “If it was me, I would’ve…” “lucky I wasn’t there, because…”. The individual is usually describing their hypothetical reaction to a situation they hadn’t, and secretly would rather not, be in. This dude is killing whole packs


  • #9494
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,753 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Yesterday, Stephen Barclay, admitted that the UK would have no arrangements ready by 31st October but that the EU should give them the transition period anyway even though there was no arrangement for a transition in A50.

    For effectively he has just asked for a one year extension, at the very least.

    The reality of this was hardly even mentioned in the media. Of course he finished with demanding that the EU do something about it.


  • #9495
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,157 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Absolutely. It is actually quite amazing how such a peripheral idea to most of the public, hence why most of them have no real idea what the EU actually does, has not become the great divide within the country.

    Whilst people may well have been unhappy with the EU, they certainly weren't as exercised as they currently are, as evidenced by that Voxpop where the guy is willing to die to get Brexit.

    It should act as a warning to all democracies, including our own, how quickly ideas can become mainstream and change the very nature of political discourse and indeed the direction of a nation.

    It almost seems as if it's the referendum and not EU membership that has everyone wound up. The referendum result itself is the rallying point, not the EU.

    If true, it tells you what a catastrophic blunder Cameron made in holding it.


  • #9496
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    That story about the UK asking the EU to keep their proposals secret has the obvious look of a manufactured row about it, they're practically asking the impossible and they know it, just so it gives them another excuse to be outraged at the actions of the other side. It's so transparent and another reason you find it hard to take anything they are doing in these "negotiations" seriously.

    Second thing that annoyed me today was listening to the commentator Liam Halligan diss Varadkar on the bbc politics show this morning. I've heard Halligan a few times on shows now and what particularly annoys me about him is he almost always prefaces his comments about brexit and the irish border with "i follow irish politics very closely..." or "i'm very close to the irish scene etc etc" and then proceeds to show hardly any understanding of the situation here whatsoever. I cant see a clip of him actually speaking this morning, but he tweeted the following afterwards and it's indicative of what he was spewing out on the bbc:

    https://twitter.com/LiamHalligan/status/1174676555890601984


  • #9497
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Dytalus wrote: »
    I know it's a dumb thing to nitpick....but if the UK manages to leave Europe I'll be singularly impressed.

    How can someone be diabetic and so casually dismiss the prospect of dying because of it. He must really hate the EU.

    It only works if you don’t believe that that will happen. They are simply not used to dealing with a rule based society and they fully expect that rules can and will be broken to give them the deal they want if they just hold out.

    In Ireland everyone understands for instance that no matter how we feel about an issue, what ever is set out in the constitution is what will be applied and if we are not satisfied then there is another set of rules to follow if we want it changed. And it is the same with the other 26 members. That is not the case in the UK with their flexible construction.

    They really don’t expect that if BREXIT happens, that the rules will be applied until it happens. It is beyond their comprehension that the 27 will refer to the rule book and start applying it. But that is what will happen because that is the culture of the 27.


  • #9498
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    I'm not really sure what to say to this - he's obviously hoping for a Darwin award...
    https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1174656247766900736

    Just goes to show the forces unleashed by brexit are almost impossible to fully comprehend. You can read a million articles, watch a thousand documentaries, listen to hundreds of political speeches and still the compulsions driving these people remain elusive and unknowable. Remember seeing another bbc report from a manufacturing plant also in the midlands and while the md and part-owner was a remainer, the machine operators - most of whom, the reporter told us, never ever voted but made the exception in 2016 - were nearly all leavers despite the md telling them they'd have to shut machines down in the event of a no deal exit and some of them would lose their jobs. Then there are the Ulster farmers facing wipeout near the border saying, so what, we want a no deal anyway. I think i can kind of understand the rust belt enthusiasm for trump in the US, but the hard brexit vote in these industrial areas of the UK continues to completely elude me. Just not rational in any sense i can think of.


  • #9499
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Supposed Memo sent to EU27 following latest half arsed crap from UK

    https://twitter.com/QuentinAries/status/1175065612906827778


  • #9500
    Shelga
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,016 ✭✭✭Shelga


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    Remember seeing another bbc report from a manufacturing plant also in the midlands and while the md and part-owner was a remainer, the machine operators - most of whom, the reporter told us, never ever voted but made the exception in 2016 - were nearly all leavers despite the md telling them they'd have to shut machines down in the event of a no deal exit and some of them would lose their jobs. Then there are the Ulster farmers facing wipeout near the border saying, so what, we want a no deal anyway.

    Ian Dunt has been strongly against Cameron's assertion on his saturation press tour this week that he had to have the referendum as "there was a growing desire to get this dealt with". This is not true- only 13% cited the EU as the most important issue facing the UK in the year before the referendum.

    He still can't just come out and say- I did this to get UKIP off my back and it was a colossal error. Now you have people like that diabetic man saying he doesn't care if he can't get insulin, as long as they're not in the EU. Cameron unleashed all of this, no one else.

    And yes it is scary how easy it has been to convince these people that leaving the EU is the number one priority in their lives, when they couldn't have cared less 5 years ago, beyond the occasional conversation down the pub. They have absolutely no comprehension of how brainwashed they sound. There is no other word for it.

    Watching the coverage of the climate strikes today, imagine how much better the world would be if half the energy that has gone into covering Brexit in the last 4 years had been directed at tackling carbon emissions.


  • #9501
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,103 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub



    ##Mod Note##

    Incredibly , In a little over a month we have already worn out yet another set of Hamsters.

    Time for us to move to version 11 of this thread.

    Enjoy!


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