BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Dardania · 07-08-2018 7:36am

Interactive map works fine for me on safari on macOS. No joy on a mobile.

Looking at the map, i can’t seem to see how many interchanges are necessary for each situation eg how far can I get without changing in th before and after situations, in a fixed time. That would be interesting to see

howiya · 07-08-2018 2:28pm

I can see why they were slow to release the map. 25% increase in journey time. Are the timings based on best/worst case scenario?

gmisk · 07-08-2018 2:45pm

My journey to cc...which was about 15 minutes on the 79-79a.....will now take me between 30-45 minutes according to that map...terrific!

Peregrine · 07-08-2018 2:49pm

howiya wrote: »

I can see why they were slow to release the map. 25% increase in journey time. Are the timings based on best/worst case scenario?

Isochrones were published for dozens of popular locations with the original report.

25% increase in journey time from where to where? Based on what? What times are you comparing?

cgcsb · 07-08-2018 2:50pm

I don't think the speeds are right. It says I can't get from Stoneybatter to Harcourt street within a half an hour, a mere 4km distance which I cycle within 20 mins at present. Current PT journey would be 40 minutes, or roughly equivalent to walking but I had assumed this situation would improve. It also says that I could not make it to the airport within 45 minutes, a dismal failure considering you could cycle the 10km to the airport in that time and not need to go into the city centre.

Peregrine · 07-08-2018 2:53pm

gmisk wrote: »

My journey to cc...which was about 15 minutes on the 79-79a.....will now take me between 30-45 minutes according to that map...terrific!

15 mins including walk to bus stop, average wait at the bus stop and bus journey? At of

Because that's what that map is showing.

If you decided to go to the city centre right now, will you be in the city centre in 15 minutes?

sharper · 07-08-2018 2:55pm

gmisk wrote: »

My journey to cc...which was about 15 minutes on the 79-79a.....will now take me between 30-45 minutes according to that map...terrific!

cgcsb wrote: »

I don't think the speeds are right. It says I can't get from Stoneybatter to Harcourt street within a half an hour, a mere 4km distance which I cycle within 20 mins at present. Current PT journey would be 40 minutes, or roughly equivalent to walking but I had assumed this situation would improve.

One slight bit of confusion is that the the isochone maps include wait times.

The local brochures they've added are very useful and hopefully will answer a lot of people's concerns. The interactive map is still a bit too steeped in having knowledge of what's being proposed.

gmisk · 07-08-2018 2:55pm

Peregrine wrote: »

15 mins including walk to bus stop, average wait at the bus stop and bus journey? At of

Because that's what that map is showing.

If you decided to go to the city centre right now, will you be in the city centre in 15 minutes?

Yes, I have a bus stop for 79/79a literally about 25 metres from the door of the house (I time on app and leave at 2 minutes). Obviously it depends on time of day but about this time yes would take me 15 minutes....according to that this will now take me 30-45 minutes.

Peregrine · 07-08-2018 2:57pm

gmisk wrote: »

Yes, I have a bus stop for 79/79a literally about 25 metres from the door of the house (I time on app and leave at 2 minutes). Obviously it depends on time of day but about this time yes would take me 15 minutes....according to that this will now take me 30-45 minutes.

The map still includes wait time. Just because you timed the bus doesn't mean you can ignore it from your calculation.

According to the map, how long does it take you right now?

Riskymove · 07-08-2018 2:57pm

gmisk wrote: »

Yes, I have a bus stop for 79/79a literally about 25 metres from the door of the house (I time on app and leave at 2 minutes). Obviously it depends on time of day but about this time yes would take me 15 minutes....according to that this will now take me 30-45 minutes.

As sharper says the map is showing a particular thing

it does not represent what you portray. It includes an average distance to a stop and an average waiting time

the actual Bus is not going to take 2-3 times the time to make the same journey

howiya · 07-08-2018 2:59pm

Peregrine wrote: »

Isochrones were published for dozens of popular locations with the original report.

25% increase in journey time from where to where? Based on what? What times are you comparing?

I’m comparing the present door to door time of approx 36 minutes to the individual isochrone showing this will be at the very edge of the 45 minute isochrone.

Beaumont to IFSC

howiya · 07-08-2018 3:00pm

Riskymove wrote: »

As sharper says the map is showing a particular thing

it does not represent what you portray. It includes an average distance to a stop and an average waiting time

the actual Bus is not going to take 2-3 times the time to make the same journey

But any sensible person when calculating their commute would have already factored this in?? My own comparisons are based on door to door.

Dyr · 07-08-2018 3:07pm

howiya wrote: »

I can see why they were slow to release the map. 25% increase in journey time. Are the timings based on best/worst case scenario?

Oddly enough, despite the apparent sterling efforts to make it happen Jarret was able to categorically predict that a virtual route planner would not be available before the consultations ended. I suspect that's got more to do with message management than any lack of time or resource.

Also if the NTA had a whitter of sense they'd be telling JWA to drop the usefulness sales pitch, it smacks of wheezes like "New and improved" "Now with added nutrients".

sharper · 07-08-2018 3:10pm

howiya wrote: »

But any sensible person when calculating their commute would have already factored this in?? My own comparisons are based on door to door.

Think of the difference between the way people use the LUAS and the way they use Dublin Bus.

With the LUAS the frequency is high enough you just walk to a stop and for the next tram. You likely don't conern yourself with the timetable.

With Dublin Bus ideally you need to be aware of the timetable, the current values in the real time tracker and your own knowledge of accurate that is given the current day/time/season/weather. Then you can plan to be at a stop without waiting too long.

Public transport is more useful to more people when it works like the LUAS. They want people to be able to go a stop without thinking too much about when the next bus is. They want people to be able to easily predict where they will get to from there and how they get to their actual destination.

cgcsb · 07-08-2018 3:13pm

paying closer attention it seems that I can walk outside my 30 minute window in less than 30 minutes, surely something not right. If I but the pin at the junction of Blackhorse avenue and North Circular road, the edge of my 30 minute commute is up Steven's lane, by heuston station, a 20 minute walk and along the proposed O bus route. If I wait the full 10 minute gap for the O bus to turn up, how is it that the bus will then take a full 20 minutes to complete the 3km distance. There must be a mistake.

ThunbergsAreGo · 07-08-2018 3:14pm

cgcsb wrote: »

paying closer attention it seems that I can walk outside my 30 minute window in less than 30 minutes, surely something not right.

I am the same, I think its saying that you get about 3 kilometers in 30 minutes :eek::eek:

Also is the journey time from Swords (one of the spines) to town really expected to be 60 minutes??

ThunbergsAreGo · 07-08-2018 3:17pm

sharper wrote: »

Think of the difference between the way people use the LUAS and the way they use Dublin Bus.

With the LUAS the frequency is high enough you just walk to a stop and for the next tram. You likely don't conern yourself with the timetable.

With Dublin Bus ideally you need to be aware of the timetable, the current values in the real time tracker and your own knowledge of accurate that is given the current day/time/season/weather. Then you can plan to be at a stop without waiting too long.

Public transport is more useful to more people when it works like the LUAS. They want people to be able to go a stop without thinking too much about when the next bus is. They want people to be able to easily predict where they will get to from there and how they get to their actual destination.

Its more useful yes, but knowledge and a shorter time is still better for most

To take the way to work as an example, people get up based on when they are getting transport to work and base things around that.

I would rather do that then have a bus every 10 minutes that takes twice as long to get to a destination

sharper · 07-08-2018 3:18pm

Bambi wrote: »

Also if the NTA had a whitter of sense they'd be telling JWA to drop the usefulness sales pitch, it smacks of wheezes like "New and improved" "Now with added nutrients".

I've lost track of what Jarret Walker is being criticised for this time - is for being too technical and not selling the plan or selling the plan and not sticking purely to the facts?

gmisk · 07-08-2018 3:18pm

Peregrine wrote: »

The map still includes wait time. Just because you timed the bus doesn't mean you can ignore it from your calculation.

According to the map, how long does it take you right now?

If I run via google maps right now it is 21 mins (next available bus).

With that map at the very edge...it gets me to Thomas street in 30 minutes....so still not in city centre

Riskymove · 07-08-2018 3:19pm

gmisk wrote: »

If I run via google maps right now it is 21 mins (next available bus).

With that map at the very edge...it gets me to Thomas street in 30 minutes....so still not in city centre

trying to compare a specific journey to a map based on averages is not going to get the same result

gmisk · 07-08-2018 3:23pm

Riskymove wrote: »

trying to compare a specific journey to a map based on averages is not going to get the same result

Even if I add time to that calculation it is still going to be more time journey wise and it isnt going to leave me in the City Centre.

At the minute the 79/79a goes via the motorway and generally flies into town, that proposed route is similar to the 40 route.....which is very slow with tonnes of stops and takes an age to reach thomas street which is also a nightmare when it comes to traffic.

davetherave · 07-08-2018 3:26pm

gmisk wrote: »

Yes, I have a bus stop for 79/79a literally about 25 metres from the door of the house (I time on app and leave at 2 minutes). Obviously it depends on time of day but about this time yes would take me 15 minutes....according to that this will now take me 30-45 minutes.

You are not comparing like with like.

Looking at the current 79/A timetable it looks to be about a 15 minute frequency.
The G1 will be a 10-15 minute frequency.

Yes, you can look at the app and see when the next 79 is coming an walk out the door to meet it, but there will be nothing stopping you from doing that with a G1. But if you didn't have the app and stood at the bus stop you could be waiting 14 minutes or you could be waiting 1 minute. The travel time includes a waiting time of half the time of the frequency of the route.

* Whenever we refer to speed or travel time, we mean the average time starting from when someone wants to go, not when the bus goes. That means that waiting at the start of your trip is part of travel time. This is the only fair way to produce an estimate that can be compared to car, bike, or walk trips, which let you leave whenever you want to. To estimate this, we add half of the frequency (e.g. 30 minutes for if the route is hourly) to the front of the total travel time. We also add waiting time for interchanges, of course. It is on the basis of this calculation that we observe that many trips to which the plan adds an interchange are faster than they are now, because waiting time is so much less.

gmisk · 07-08-2018 3:30pm

davetherave wrote: »

You are not comparing like with like.

Looking at the current 79/A timetable it looks to be about a 15 minute frequency.
The G1 will be a 10-15 minute frequency.

Yes, you can look at the app and see when the next 79 is coming an walk out the door to meet it, but there will be nothing stopping you from doing that with a G1. But if you didn't have the app and stood at the bus stop you could be waiting 14 minutes or you could be waiting 1 minute. The travel time includes a waiting time of half the time of the frequency of the route.

* Whenever we refer to speed or travel time, we mean the average time starting from when someone wants to go, not when the bus goes. That means that waiting at the start of your trip is part of travel time. This is the only fair way to produce an estimate that can be compared to car, bike, or walk trips, which let you leave whenever you want to. To estimate this, we add half of the frequency (e.g. 30 minutes for if the route is hourly) to the front of the total travel time. We also add waiting time for interchanges, of course. It is on the basis of this calculation that we observe that many trips to which the plan adds an interchange are faster than they are now, because waiting time is so much less.

I get the first 2 parts totally but not a clue when it comes to the * part.

I know from my own experience of traveling the 40 route (which is what the G1 route proposed follows) it is a slow and winding nightmare, so will take me longer to even get as far as thomas street....where I would then I guess have to change to another bus to get to CC?

Riskymove · 07-08-2018 3:30pm

for example

Looking at the map where I live the 30 minute map would show about 15 mins actual travel time by a bus from my nearest stop

cgcsb · 07-08-2018 3:36pm

I understand the waiting time thing but even comparing like with like on the map (grey area being lost access and blue area being gained/retained access) It shows that I can currently get from the junction of Blackhorse Ave and Nth Circular to the top of Steven's lane in half an hour. That's what I'd currently walk it in, which I guess is what they've based it on as there are currently no PT options, other than an arduous change at Victoria quay. The blue area, post bus connects, shows that I can only get about half way up Steven's lane in half an hour. How has my access decreased despite the introduction of a completely new bus service, the O bus, on pretty much a direct route to that exact street.

cgcsb · 07-08-2018 3:42pm

It'd be interesting to know have they programmed the map based on current bus stops. The plan is to move a fair few bus stops. And if they are using the location of current bus stops how are they taking into account new routes with, as of yet, non existing bus stops, whos exact location is not decided.

Anyhow, it's not really that important, it's a purely theoretical exorcise to provide better illustrations to the public. As a toll it really shines wen you put in one of the suburban hubs as your location and it shows you a vastly expanded catchment.

I'd also expect infrastructure to bring journey times down massively. If the infrastructure is fully delivered some people in the south west of the city will be knocking an hour off their journey.

Riskymove · 07-08-2018 3:44pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I The blue area, post bus connects, shows that I can only get about half way up Steven's lane in half an hour. How has my access decreased despite the introduction of a completely new bus service, the O bus, on pretty much a direct route to that exact street.

I looked at it there using the junction of Blackhorse and Nth circular

It shows you could go past Steeven's lane and as far as James' hospital in 30 minutes

Riskymove · 07-08-2018 3:47pm

Riskymove wrote: »

for example

Looking at the map where I live the 30 minute map would show about 15 mins actual travel time by a bus from my nearest stop

another example

the 60 minute map shows me getting to the M50 whereas in reality I am in the city centre every day in less than 60 mins

cgcsb · 07-08-2018 3:51pm

Riskymove wrote: »

I looked at it there using the junction of Blackhorse and Nth circular

It shows you could go past Steeven's lane and as far as James' hospital in 30 minutes

My pin was very very slightly up on Blackhorse avenue, and moving it less than 10 metres seems to have made a gigantic difference.

anyway it's only a predictive tool and I'm sure probably has a few bugs. I'm not concerned about journey time tbh. The O and N2 routes will bring so much convenience for my parents who are loosing their ability to drive so I'm quite happy.

cgcsb · 07-08-2018 3:53pm

Riskymove wrote: »

another example

the 60 minute map shows me getting to the M50 whereas in reality I am in the city centre every day in less than 60 mins

In your case, you are comparing your experience (using a real time app) to the map. The only accurate comparison can be between the grey and blue areas on the map.

Riskymove · 07-08-2018 3:56pm

cgcsb wrote: »

In your case, you are comparing your experience (using a real time app) to the map. The only accurate comparison can be between the grey and blue areas on the map.

yes I know

I am trying to show people that the map is not just about actual bus travel time but includes other variables

cgcsb · 07-08-2018 3:59pm

A mock journey planner would be fun. But perhaps it's best to just get on with it. More detailed design is due out in 2 months time. I look forward to it. There are a lot of questions about pinch points which will hopefully be answered. I'm sure some of the solutions are creative to say the least.

cgcsb · 07-08-2018 4:31pm

the new map is giving away some juicy details, for example route N2 seems to serve the distant platform 10 at Heuston, or Heuston West.

Slutmonkey57b · 07-08-2018 5:30pm

I think there's probably another communication gap going on here. The busconnects tool is clearly being conservative about existing travel times as well as proposed ones. Anyone on a QBC knows that the morning commute is quicker than the evening, and that any commute is quicker when you can physically get on a bus.

So from my perspective, the new map looks worse, in theory I don't get as far as I do now in the same time. However I also know that it says I only get half as far as I do now on its own estimates for "now".

So I'm assuming that the estimate is conservative, based on the lowest frequency on the routes, and is intended more to show *places* rather than just estimates for commuters. If you look at where you can get to from dundrum, there are whole areas of the city which can get there on pt which can't now.

donvito99 · 07-08-2018 6:04pm

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

I think there's probably another communication gap going on here. The busconnects tool is clearly being conservative about existing travel times as well as proposed ones. Anyone on a QBC knows that the morning commute is quicker than the evening, and that any commute is quicker when you can physically get on a bus.

So from my perspective, the new map looks worse, in theory I don't get as far as I do now in the same time. However I also know that it says I only get half as far as I do now on its own estimates for "now".

So I'm assuming that the estimate is conservative, based on the lowest frequency on the routes, and is intended more to show *places* rather than just estimates for commuters. If you look at where you can get to from dundrum, there are whole areas of the city which can get there on pt which can't now.

The map is based off a low-ebb midday frequency.

ThunbergsAreGo · 07-08-2018 6:17pm

donvito99 wrote: »

The map is based off a low-ebb midday frequency.

Any idea why that time was selected?

devnull · 07-08-2018 6:20pm

A route by route breakdown has now been released:
https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1301/route-by-route-comparison-table.pdf

davetherave · 07-08-2018 6:49pm

naughtb4 wrote: »

Any idea why that time was selected?

They say it in the reports. Many services will have a better frequency at peak times so I'd assume they are telling the worst case rather than the frequent peak times between 7-9 and 3-6

It is also important to remember that the maps show the frequency of the mid-day services – services run more frequently during peak hours.

https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1299/proposed-service-hours-and-frequencies.pdf

howiya · 07-08-2018 6:51pm

sharper wrote: »

Think of the difference between the way people use the LUAS and the way they use Dublin Bus.

With the LUAS the frequency is high enough you just walk to a stop and for the next tram. You likely don't conern yourself with the timetable.

With Dublin Bus ideally you need to be aware of the timetable, the current values in the real time tracker and your own knowledge of accurate that is given the current day/time/season/weather. Then you can plan to be at a stop without waiting too long.

Public transport is more useful to more people when it works like the LUAS. They want people to be able to go a stop without thinking too much about when the next bus is. They want people to be able to easily predict where they will get to from there and how they get to their actual destination.

I understand your point but I still wouldn't walk to the bus stop and hope there'll be a bus soon.

Given this won't work like Luas unless your bus stop is on one of the spines, people will still use the apps and timetables etc.

The reality is my journey was always going to be longer given that the 14 will be replaced by a bus that doesn't stop at the IFSC. Just glad they're no longer calling it an improvement.

ThunbergsAreGo · 07-08-2018 6:52pm

davetherave wrote: »

They say it in the reports. Many services will have a better frequency at peak times so I'd assume they are telling the worst case rather than the frequent peak times between 7-9 and 3-6

https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1299/proposed-service-hours-and-frequencies.pdf

Thank you, though I assume that would also allow comparison against current peak and express services which would be really useful

ThunbergsAreGo · 07-08-2018 6:54pm

howiya wrote: »

I understand your point but I still wouldn't walk to the bus stop and hope there'll be a bus soon.

Given this won't work like Luas unless your bus stop is on one of the spines, people will still use the apps and timetables etc.

The reality is my journey was always going to be longer given that the 14 will be replaced by a bus that doesn't stop at the IFSC. Just glad they're no longer calling it an improvement.

Yeah it's a definite downgrade for my area as well but good to see it called out in black and white

n!ghtmancometh · 07-08-2018 7:27pm

Is there going to be a capacity increase on the Luas? All express busses that serve Clondalkin are gone, bar 1 morning only departure. Excuse given is a new frequent bus to Red line Luas. Not much use if Luas is jammed like it is most mornings.

L1011 · 07-08-2018 7:41pm

The route by route table gives details that the omission of was causing justified but needless uproar previously.

E.g. the Rolestown service is being replaced by a Swords-Ashbourne local service

https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1301/route-by-route-comparison-table.pdf

howiya · 07-08-2018 7:54pm

naughtb4 wrote: »

Yeah it's a definite downgrade for my area as well but good to see it called out in black and white

Where I used to live it looks great though. There's suburbs you can reach now without the journey in and out of An Lar..

I do think the plan as a whole is a positive step. Fine my own journey isn't improving but public transport in Dublin will be better. Anyway who's to say we'll all be living and working in the same places by the time it is implemented.

ThunbergsAreGo · 07-08-2018 7:56pm

howiya wrote: »

Where I used to live it looks great though. There's suburbs you can reach now without the journey in and out of An Lar..

I do think the plan as a whole is a positive step. Fine my own journey isn't improving but public transport in Dublin will be better. Anyway who's to say we'll all be living and working in the same places by the time it is implemented.

It's good for public transport if the needed capacity increases happen on the train and luas.

This is essential for it to work

Stephen15 · 07-08-2018 8:45pm

gmisk wrote: »

My journey to cc...which was about 15 minutes on the 79-79a.....will now take me between 30-45 minutes according to that map...terrific!

How many minutes would it on a wet Tuesday morning in November compared to a BH Monday in August?

Stephen15 · 07-08-2018 9:30pm

I don't understand that some people might not be best pleased if their frequency is being reduced and their journey time might up under these plan. What I dislike is people who give out about the plan and don't offer any constructive thought, it seems to be an Irish trait let's just criticise something but don't offer any constructive criticism. I know not everyone is a transport planner or even has an interest but come on a bit of thought never killed anyone even if the groups which are unhappy with the proposals got together and offered something constructive if individuals can't think of anything.

I notice some of the reaction has been comments like "If it isin't broken, why fix it?" I'm sorry but that just isn't the case. The DB network at present is not up to scratch and most people think that. The current network has been built off ad hoc extensions to routes for the most part it needs an overhaul as many of the routes date back to the 1950s or older and have been extended as the city has grown.

I'm definitely don't think the proposed bus connects network is perfect but it is an improvement on what is currently there obviously the big improvements will be infrastructure wise and th improvements could become better if there are good proposals in the public consultation as I do think some of the proposed network lacked a certain degree of local knowledge and detail but as a rough guideline I think it's generally positive for the most part.

ThunbergsAreGo · 07-08-2018 9:36pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I don't understand that some people might not be best pleased if their frequency is being reduced and their journey time might up under these plan. What I dislike is people who give out about the plan and don't offer any constructive thought, it seems to be an Irish trait let's just criticise something but don't offer any constructive criticism. I know not everyone is a transport planner or even has an interest but come on a bit of thought never killed anyone even if the groups which are unhappy with the proposals got together and offered something constructive if individuals can't think of anything.

I notice some of the reaction has been comments like "If it isin't broken, why fix it?" I'm sorry but that just isn't the case. The DB network at present is not up to scratch and most people think that. The current network has been built off ad hoc extensions to routes for the most part it needs an overhaul as many of the routes date back to the 1950s or older and have been extended as the city has grown.

I'm definitely don't think the proposed bus connects network is perfect but it is an improvement on what is currently there obviously the big improvements will be infrastructure wise and th improvements could become better if there are good proposals in the public consultation as I do think some of the proposed network lacked a certain degree of local knowledge and detail but as a rough guideline I think it's generally positive for the most part.

Hopefully the consultations will provide what was missing. I think. Commuters to town are being a bit underserved for example , or told to use the train

Really important people engage and not just snipe from the sidelines

Cookie_Monster · 07-08-2018 9:43pm

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

I think there's probably another communication gap going on here. The busconnects tool is clearly being conservative about existing travel times as well as proposed ones

there's conservative and then there is just plain wrong, as others have pointed out, 30 minutes isochrones less than walking distance in that time for example.

I've re-looked at the pictures I uploaded, and 30m difference from the same stop makes a job difference in the thousands... 30m is 14s walk at 8kph (and neither point is directly on the stop), maybe walking up the hill instead of down adds 5 minutes or something?

That route by route doc is good, all the rush hour only bus details on it.

vectorvictor · 07-08-2018 10:40pm

devnull wrote: »

A route by route breakdown has now been released:
https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1301/route-by-route-comparison-table.pdf

Thanks for posting this. There is going to need to be some serious community centric education. The planners have a tough task translating the current setup.

I would like to think the motivation of following this plan will be achieved but right now it looks like a complicated mess that will drive people who have an option away from public transport.

In my view people will take their decades of Dublin bus usage and experience of reliability (albeit largely down to the road infrastructure rather than the operator) and be strongly discouraged by the notion of a two sector bus trip. It's just not going to work in practice.

The romantic notion of gliding off one bus and onto another to achieve a shorter journey time than present is naive at best. It's just not possible for a city like Dublin regardless of the proposed infrastructure changes.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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