Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

Options
1…4849515354

Comments

  • Options
    #1502
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Good balance in community. What is this? Perhaps a form of discrimination, only those who can live there are allowed stay? No visitors allowed.

    Good balance as in; not turning significant parts of the residential areas of a city into theme parks/resorts catering solely to tourists.

    I've no issue with areas zoned for tourism, that's an entirely different matter.

    I don't think good zoning is best left to property investors.

    If you want to see the consequences of letting the investors ignore the zoning look around what should be residential parts of Temple Bar or Barcelona or Amsterdam or Paris etc etc etc etc.


  • Options
    #1503
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,060 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Ozark707 wrote: »
    This is why I think the carrot has not worked and the stick needs to be taken out to hosts who won't comply.

    I think if rental laws were fixed to make it easier to remove errant tenants and recover money owed for rent/damage, STLs would not be as appealing to owners. But of course that would not have the same resonance as stomping on STLs.


  • Options
    #1504
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Did an Airbnb owner pee in your cornflakes? I don’t get why some people have this dislike for a tiny sector who don’t want to rent, yet want to make money off their property.

    Yours and Graham’s posts are almost inspiring.

    I think airbnb is an excellent service. I have rented my own home out on airbnb and I have a good friend who until recently was turning over 6 figures annually from airbnb.

    I am just expressing an opinion on what I consider to be the reality of the situation - that airbnb income is under significant pressure from the collapse of tourism and increasingly enforced regulation.

    Your reaction is similiar to the reaction I received to posts I made in the 2020 thread.

    Despite the unarguable macroeconomic factors it is based on, it seems to be impossible to express an opinion here that property prices might fall or that the airbnb market might collapse without somebody claiming you have an agenda re hoping for a cheap house or hating airbnb.

    It reminds me of the 2020 US Election: those who argued the signs were there that Trump would win the election were vilified as being right wing imbecile Trump supporters hoping he would win. Nobody would actually engage sensibly and discuss the factors that pointed to him winning.

    Then he won, and all those with their heads in sand, said "Wow, nobody saw that coming."


  • Options
    #1505
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,060 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Graham wrote: »
    Good balance as in; not turning significant parts of the residential areas of a city into theme parks/resorts catering solely to tourists.

    I've no issue with areas zoned for tourism, that's an entirely different matter.

    I don't think good zoning is best left to property investors.

    If you want to see the consequences of letting the investors ignore the zoning look around what should be residential parts of Temple Bar or Barcelona or Amsterdam or Paris etc etc etc etc.

    No outsiders allowed?

    Do you not think the people who rent/buy in Temple Bar knew before they bought that this is one of the busiest nightlife/cafe areas in the country?

    Graham, when you start talking about only allowing tourists into areas zoned for tourism, you really are at danger of straying into the area of discrimination. It reads like you want to keep outsiders out. Maybe this is indicative of the new reality in society where people like Trump, Johnson etc preach their gospel of exclusion, and have a dedicated following.


  • Options
    #1506
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,060 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    schmittel wrote: »
    I think airbnb is an excellent service. I have rented my own home out on airbnb and I have a good friend who until recently was turning over 6 figures annually from airbnb.

    I am just expressing an opinion on what I consider to be the reality of the situation - that airbnb income is under significant pressure from the collapse of tourism and increasingly enforced regulation.

    Your reaction is similiar to the reaction I received to posts I made in the 2020 thread.

    Despite the unarguable macroeconomic factors it is based on, it seems to be impossible to express an opinion here that property prices might fall or that the airbnb market might collapse without somebody claiming you have an agenda re hoping for a cheap house or hating airbnb.

    It reminds me of the 2020 US Election: those who argued the signs were there that Trump would win the election were vilified as being right wing imbecile Trump supporters hoping he would win. Nobody would actually engage sensibly and discuss the factors that pointed to him winning.

    Then he won, and all those with their heads in sand, said "Wow, nobody saw that coming."

    I think when someone shouts “The end is nigh!”, you have to expect to be asked about you are basing that on. You can speculate about its collapse, but like everyone else, you don’t know for certain that it will. We just have to wait and see.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1507
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I think when someone shouts “The end is nigh!”, you have to expect to be asked about you are basing that on. You can speculate about its collapse, but like everyone else, you don’t know for certain that it will. We just have to wait and see.
    Nobody is certain that they will wake up in the morning but bar a very serious illness, accident etc they will.
    The poster is basing his opinion on the state of the world at present, Covid 19, Traffic restrictions, unemployment, collapse of the tourism market.
    There is nothing indicating an upsurge in travel, tourist numbers etc that will cause an increase in demand for tourist accommodation


  • Options
    #1508
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I think when someone shouts “The end is nigh!”, you have to expect to be asked about you are basing that on.I have told you e You can speculate about its collapse, but like everyone else, you don’t know for certain that it will. We just have to wait and see.

    I have told you exactly what I am basing it on and rather than rebutting the points I have made, you have responded with blind logic before ultimately claiming my stance must be because I hate airbnb owners.

    I am not claiming I know for certain it will collapse. Just that I think on the balance of probabilities it will collapse.

    And that works both ways. You don't know for certain that it will be business as usual as far as the lax enforcement of the regulations.

    As you say we will have to wait and see.


  • Options
    #1509
    Ozark707
    Registered Users Posts: 942 ✭✭✭Ozark707


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I think if rental laws were fixed to make it easier to remove errant tenants and recover money owed for rent/damage, STLs would not be as appealing to owners. But of course that would not have the same resonance as stomping on STLs.

    I am all for strengthening laws to protect LL's. What goes on here is a farce. We need good LL's out there and they need to be protected.


  • Options
    #1510
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,060 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Edgware wrote: »
    Nobody is certain that they will wake up in the morning but bar a very serious illness, accident etc they will.
    The poster is basing his opinion on the state of the world at present, Covid 19, Traffic restrictions, unemployment, collapse of the tourism market.
    There is nothing indicating an upsurge in travel, tourist numbers etc that will cause an increase in demand for tourist accommodation

    Edge ware, almost all of my guests live in Ireland and use my property for attending events at weekends. I have had Americans, Canadians, French, German etc guests, which of course we won’t see again for a while, but when all these events cancelled this year, like weddings, concerts etc are rescheduled, domestic travellers will still be looking for apartments/houses. I am literally seeing this already. My property would be booked every weekend April to September, then bookings would tail off towards the end of the year, now I am getting bookings for Oct/Nov/Dec/Jan at a level not seen in previous years.

    There will be no upsurge in tourist travel, how quickly hotels will reopen, what restrictions will be in them in relation to social distancing and the prices which will be charged are all unknowns for people booking rooms. But Airbnb Hosts can take bookings now, and the guest will have peace of mind that they will be sharing with/close to, only family/friends. For many, that will be appealing.

    Also, I guess Irish people will not be going abroad on short/long breaks for a while, some might use STLs here for family holidays. Anyone with teenagers will tell you how expensive it is to book hotels when you need 3 or four rooms for a family getaway.


  • Options
    #1511
    Hubertj
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭Hubertj


    schmittel wrote: »
    I think airbnb is an excellent service. I have rented my own home out on airbnb and I have a good friend who until recently was turning over 6 figures annually from airbnb.

    I am just expressing an opinion on what I consider to be the reality of the situation - that airbnb income is under significant pressure from the collapse of tourism and increasingly enforced regulation.

    Your reaction is similiar to the reaction I received to posts I made in the 2020 thread.

    Despite the unarguable macroeconomic factors it is based on, it seems to be impossible to express an opinion here that property prices might fall or that the airbnb market might collapse without somebody claiming you have an agenda re hoping for a cheap house or hating airbnb.

    It reminds me of the 2020 US Election: those who argued the signs were there that Trump would win the election were vilified as being right wing imbecile Trump supporters hoping he would win. Nobody would actually engage sensibly and discuss the factors that pointed to him winning.

    Then he won, and all those with their heads in sand, said "Wow, nobody saw that coming."

    You’re a trump supporting Airbnb killer. Unbelievable


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1512
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Dav010 wrote: »
    A clampdown on STLs will not be top of the tray, there are far bigger and more important problems in the country.

    The Business Post seems to think it will fairly close to the top of the in tray, today claiming the new government will strengthen the existing legislation:
    Airbnb and other short term letting platforms would only be allowed to advertise properties that had been granted planning permission. If they breached this requirement, the companies would face fines.

    https://www.businesspost.ie/ireland/airbnb-hosts-will-need-planning-permission-to-advertise-properties-3be6badd

    Wow. That came out of left field.


  • Options
    #1513
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users Posts: 2,576 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Gael23 wrote: »
    I don’t see Airbnb surviving Covid 19 so this discussion may soon nit be relevant

    Airbnb helping homeowners rent out a room to visitors on airbnb is a very resilient business model and such service will always be in demand. It doesnt carry the premium price of a whole house but it can always outcompete hotels on price.
    Graham wrote: »
    STLs will survive but I suspect the regulatory environment across many countries will be very different.

    This enforced reset is a great opportunity for governments/local authorities everywhere to prevent things going back to the way they were. That's assuming finances/market-forces don't do the job.

    Not all property if leveraged. There is huge numbers of rural dwellings inherited that wouldn't be.

    The Irish model of planning does not work. Look at Asia and you can see removing planning makes cities far more livable.


  • Options
    #1514
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,060 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    schmittel wrote: »
    The Business Post seems to think it will fairly close to the top of the in tray, today claiming the new government will strengthen the existing legislation:



    https://www.businesspost.ie/ireland/airbnb-hosts-will-need-planning-permission-to-advertise-properties-3be6badd

    Wow. That came out of left field.

    Certainly a strong statement, but as you know, not all things printed in the paper come to pass. I expect the new Government will have a lot more important issues to focus on, such as unemployment, backlog in healthcare, tax hikes, public sector pay cuts, pension age increases etc as we try to deal with health issues and recover some of the money borrowed to fund the pandemic relief payments. I would be concerned if tackling 6000 property owners is considered a pressing issue.

    Incidentally, another poster asked who is paying for the STLs housing the homeless, the HSE is paying the Hosts.


  • Options
    #1515
    Hubertj
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭Hubertj


    I wonder what air bnb stats are like over the last week since the plan was published in lifting of restrictions? I already had a week booked in Kerry in August for the family - 3 bed house. Have extended that to 2 weeks as not going abroad. Also taken a week in Galway later in year. Obviously as long as palm stays on track...


  • Options
    #1516
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Airbnb hosts will be blocked from advertising their properties on the platform unless they have obtained planning permission, under plans being drawn up by the proposed new coalition government.
    schmittel wrote: »
    Wow. That came out of left field.

    Sounds like a logical approach. I assume any such legislation won't target just one specific advertising platform.


  • Options
    #1517
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users Posts: 2,576 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Graham wrote: »
    Sounds like a logical approach. I assume any such legislation won't target just one specific advertising platform.

    People will list apartments as a rented out room and leave pics to show it isnt. Prohibition never works.


  • Options
    #1518
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    People will list apartments as a rented out room and leave pics to show it isnt..

    Like any laws there will always be a handful of people that try to skirt around them.

    Hopefully the enforcement and penalties will be severe enough to make most (reputable) property investors think twice.


  • Options
    #1519
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,060 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Graham wrote: »
    Like any laws there will always be a handful of people that try to skirt around them.

    Hopefully the enforcement and penalties will be severe enough to make most (reputable) property investors think twice.

    Just read the article in the SBP. Proposed legislation is aimed at penalising the platforms, not the Hosts directly. It will certainly make it difficult for Airbnb which has a significant operational presence here in Ireland, but I doubt it would take long for alternatives to replace it. You can currently advertise on any amount of sites based outside this jurisdiction. What can be done to fine sites based in the UK where advertising would not be illegal?


  • Options
    #1520
    Ozark707
    Registered Users Posts: 942 ✭✭✭Ozark707


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Just read the article in the SBP. Proposed legislation is aimed at penalising the platforms, not the Hosts directly. It will certainly make it difficult for Airbnb which has a significant operational presence here in Ireland, but I doubt it would take long for alternatives to replace it. You can currently advertise on any amount of sites based outside this jurisdiction.

    Well it would be pretty foolish of the new government to throw in the towel if this is the case. It sounds like quite severe penalties will be required if many continue to flout the law. It is not like people won't have been warned.


  • Options
    #1521
    Ozark707
    Registered Users Posts: 942 ✭✭✭Ozark707


    I am also guessing that this legislation could cover daft.ie for the 'weekly' lets that are advertised so heavily?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1522
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Edge ware, almost all of my guests live in Ireland and use my property for attending events at weekends. I have had Americans, Canadians, French, German etc guests, which of course we won’t see again for a while, but when all these events cancelled this year, like weddings, concerts etc are rescheduled, domestic travellers will still be looking for apartments/houses. I am literally seeing this already. My property would be booked every weekend April to September, then bookings would tail off towards the end of the year, now I am getting bookings for Oct/Nov/Dec/Jan at a level not seen in previous years.

    There will be no upsurge in tourist travel, how quickly hotels will reopen, what restrictions will be in them in relation to social distancing and the prices which will be charged are all unknowns for people booking rooms. But Airbnb Hosts can take bookings now, and the guest will have peace of mind that they will be sharing with/close to, only family/friends. For many, that will be appealing.

    Also, I guess Irish people will not be going abroad on short/long breaks for a while, some might use STLs here for family holidays. Anyone with teenagers will tell you how expensive it is to book hotels when you need 3 or four rooms for a family getaway.

    I am glad to see your positivity. I have used Airbnb myself and certainly believe there is a need for it especially for middle and lower income families. The ban on Airbnb was a P.R. stunt fuelled by the usual begrudgers in Irish politics.
    I see you point too about the domestic family market. Airbnb owners could guarantee proper cleaning and sanitising of accommodation between stays.


  • Options
    #1523
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,060 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Ozark707 wrote: »
    Well it would be pretty foolish of the new government to throw in the towel if this is the case. It sounds like quite severe penalties will be required if many continue to flout the law. It is not like people won't have been warned.

    You should read the article, the current legislation has been described/admitted to be ineffective. So now the legislation will be directed at the sites. That’s all good and well, except the primary target is also the most transparent and tax compliant of the sites. Punishing it will open the door to other, less compliant sites headquartered outside Ireland. That’s good legislating.


  • Options
    #1524
    Ozark707
    Registered Users Posts: 942 ✭✭✭Ozark707


    Dav010 wrote: »
    You should read the article, the current legislation has been described/admitted to be ineffective. So now the legislation will be directed at the sites. That’s all good and well, except the primary target is also the most transparent and tax compliant of the sites. Punishing it will open the door to other, less compliant sites headquartered outside Ireland. That’s good legislating.

    I agree, the severe fines will have to targeted at the hosts.


  • Options
    #1525
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,060 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Edgware wrote: »
    I am glad to see your positivity. I have used Airbnb myself and certainly believe there is a need for it especially for middle and lower income families. The ban on Airbnb was a P.R. stunt fuelled by the usual begrudgers in Irish politics.
    I see you point too about the domestic family market. Airbnb owners could guarantee proper cleaning and sanitising of accommodation between stays.

    I don’t know that I would go as far as to say I’m positive about it, but where a market exists, someone will fill it. I just don’t see it disappearing completely, either due to fall in demand or changes to legislation. I believe it is like every other business at the moment, in a state of shock, not knowing what the future holds. But the benefit of ST letting will still appeal to both owners and guests, so I think it is here to stay in one form or another.


  • Options
    #1526
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,060 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Ozark707 wrote: »
    I agree, the severe fines will have to targeted at the hosts.

    I remember reading about this at the time the legislation on planning was introduced last year, there was a reason why the laws on advertising couldn’t be changed to penalise individuals without effecting other advertisers in other sectors when attaching conditions to placing ads. The legal people on here will know better,

    Personally, I think the Government would be better focusing on legislation targeting errant tenants. This would be a much bigger carrot to entice STL owners back into rental market. But as today’s discussion shows, the focus on a tiny sector is tweaked by a headline in a paper, the reason why this attracts such importance and staunch views is a mystery. At those types of numbers, no one should care, 1% of the rental market is insignificant.


  • Options
    #1527
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    I think longer term we'll see more of what we're seeing in the long-term letting market.

    Professional operators with entire blocks of build-to-STL. Single unit operators will be pushed to the periphery, room-in-a-home taking up the lower end and the cowboy operators completely sidelined.


  • Options
    #1528
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Edgware wrote: »
    I am glad to see your positivity. I have used Airbnb myself and certainly believe there is a need for it especially for middle and lower income families. The ban on Airbnb was a P.R. stunt fuelled by the usual begrudgers in Irish politics.
    I see you point too about the domestic family market. Airbnb owners could guarantee proper cleaning and sanitising of accommodation between stays.

    There’s no ban on AirBnB. Just a clampdown on whole properties being used as a business venture rather than the private dwellings they were built as.

    There is a place for AirBnB room lets in private houses or even house swaps.


  • Options
    #1529
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Dav010 wrote: »
    You should read the article, the current legislation has been described/admitted to be ineffective. So now the legislation will be directed at the sites. That’s all good and well, except the primary target is also the most transparent and tax compliant of the sites. Punishing it will open the door to other, less compliant sites headquartered outside Ireland. That’s good legislating.

    A sort of black market for STLs as it were.

    I suspect you're right.

    And no doubt hosts will migrate en masse onto this new, less transparent platform, taking the bookings as normal, trusting this new operators ability to verify the guests, payout to hosts etc as normal.

    Equally guests will hand over €500 a pop months in advance to this company, confident their money is safe, and expect to turn up and find they can access the property with no problem.

    Business as usual. The soft landing for STL's.


  • Options
    #1530
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,060 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Graham wrote: »
    I think longer term we'll see more of what we're seeing in the long-term letting market.

    Professional operators with entire blocks of build-to-STL. Single unit operators will be pushed to the periphery, room-in-a-home taking up the lower end and the cowboy operators completely sidelined.

    Not likely, there will not be planning granted for blocks of STLs. The single unit operators will always be there.

    Your post reminds me of the posters who called for small landlords, amateurs, cowboys, to leave the market to the professional landlords. That worked out well.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1531
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    schmittel wrote: »
    A sort of black market for STLs as it were.

    I suspect you're right.

    And no doubt hosts will migrate en masse onto this new, less transparent platform, taking the bookings as normal, trusting this new operators ability to verify the guests, payout to hosts etc as normal.

    Equally guests will hand over €500 a pop months in advance to this company, confident their money is safe, and expect to turn up and find they can access the property with no problem.

    Business as usual. The soft landing for STL's.


    It's an optimistic outlook alright :D


Advertisement