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Becoming a secondary school teacher

  • 27-04-2020 3:52pm
    #1
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭


    Hi All

    After ten years working in big tech and business consultancy roles, I'm considering giving it all up and going back to become a teacher. Madness? Maybe but I love leading, coaching and helping people become better and these were the best parts of my career to date that gave me immense satisfaction. I particularly loved coaching younger colleagues and helping them improve.

    My degree would enable me to teach Business, Economics and possibly Accounting according to the Teaching Council. I'd still need to do the Masters in Education. I'm based in Dublin and would teach in Dublin/Wicklow. Obviously that would be my aspiration but my question is if there's actually opportunity and job prospects in this field for the subjects I'd be qualified to teach? Also, do schools like hiring people with practical experience into the field?

    Thanks a lot


«13

Comments

  • #2
    Polka_Dot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Polka_Dot


    Business and economics are quite overcrowded subjects AFAIK


  • #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Oh yeah? And does anyone care about real world experience or is it not an advantage?


  • #4
    History Queen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭History Queen


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Oh yeah? And does anyone care about real world experience or is it not an advantage?

    It depends on the interview panel but (anecdotally) generally real world experience isn't hugely advantageous when it comes to teaching interviews.


  • #5
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    I'd try and get some sort of experience of dealing with teenagers before you commit to spending quite a sizable sum of money on retraining. An eager younger colleague isn't comparable to disenchanted teen. The hours of paperwork, corrections and meetings are getting to be out of control.

    You are also limited in that you are tied to a geographical area, which would limit your chances of subbing, which you will probably be doing for a number of years. This isn't meant to be a negative post, more one to open your eyes to what are the realities of teaching today. I love my job, but have tried to dissuade family members from going into it, because of where it is going- aping the failed English system.


  • #6
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Oh yeah? And does anyone care about real world experience or is it not an advantage?

    Its an advantage versus no experience, but it's not uncommon. Retraining as a teacher having already worked in industry is now one of, if not the, most common routes into teaching. Hibernia is the largest provider of teacher training now and huge numbers of their teachers are coming from industry. Gone are the days of the majority of post primary teachers coming straight out of school and college.


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  • #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    I'd try and get some sort of experience of dealing with teenagers before you commit to spending quite a sizable sum of money on retraining. An eager younger colleague isn't comparable to disenchanted teen. The hours of paperwork, corrections and meetings are getting to be out of control.

    You are also limited in that you are tied to a geographical area, which would limit your chances of subbing, which you will probably be doing for a number of years. This isn't meant to be a negative post, more one to open your eyes to what are the realities of teaching today. I love my job, but have tried to dissuade family members from going into it, because of where it is going- aping the failed English system.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    How many years would it take to get a permanent position after qualifying? I'm early 30s so have to be mindful of how long it would take also.

    When it comes to jobs in Dublin teaching business and economics, are they v hard to find?


  • #8
    Newbie20
    Registered Users Posts: 693 ✭✭✭Newbie20


    Yeah I’d have to say that unfortunately your subjects wouldn’t be the most in demand. I suppose one of the big problems is say for example a small to average sized school - it might only have one Accouting class in 5th Year and one in 6th. Economics the same. So you only have 4 class groups there potentially versus say English where you would have maybe 3 classes per year which is 18 groups in the whole school. Now I’m picking numbers based on those in my school there which has about 350 students. You would have business at Junior Cycle alright though.

    It’s a funny job in that it’s hard to know what will be available. You might get lucky, Economics and Business job comes up late in the summer and not many people go for it.

    Generally what tends to happen in my school (not speaking for all schools here) is if you get in the door, do a good job in Year 1 and are kept on for Year 2, you are in a great position then. I think you get CID after 2 Years now and Permanency might be given then or the following year.

    The last thing I would say is would you consider at all qualifying to teach Maths? It mightn’t be for you but if it was, it’s a great subject to have, always in demand and would really strengthen your hand when job hunting.


  • #9
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Thanks a lot, great feedback.

    What do you think? Honestly, I know you're all being realistic and I appreciate that but it sounds very off putting and I'm an eternal optimist.

    So what do you think? Should I forget about pursuing a secondary teaching role with Biz & Economics? Is there a way I can see what the demand would be like? I'd love to do it but of course, 3 years of total pain after qualifying and not being able to work would naturally dampen the enthusiasm of the most motivated individuals!

    On the inspiring/motivated strand, what do you think of career guidance counselor as a career? Same deal?

    What do you think?


  • #10
    Gal2glam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭Gal2glam


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Thanks a lot, great feedback.

    What do you think? Honestly, I know you're all being realistic and I appreciate that but it sounds very off putting and I'm an eternal optimist.

    So what do you think? Should I forget about pursuing a secondary teaching role with Biz & Economics? Is there a way I can see what the demand would be like? I'd love to do it but of course, 3 years of total pain after qualifying and not being able to work would naturally dampen the enthusiasm of the most motivated individuals!

    On the inspiring/motivated strand, what do you think of career guidance counselor as a career? Same deal?

    What do you think?

    You can use this website. https://www.educationposts.ie/posts/second_level?sb=application_closing_date&sd=0&p=1&cy=&pd=&vc=&pt=

    Having practical experience in the field and no experience with children / teens makes no odds to them.


  • #11
    2011abc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭2011abc


    In a word ( you used it ) Madness .Unless you are seriously struggling to make ends meet ( you will struggle , maybe not seriously as an established teacher but you will never have more than basic to moderate ‘comfort’ ) I would forget your plan.If you really want to scratch your ‘Oh Captain , my Captain’ itch volunteer to help tutor needy kids.Presumably your current career has the potential to make decent moolah , you’re probably already on the road to wealth .It really sucks knowing your kids are styled exclusively by Penneys ,cant go on the school tour to Italy or even get dental braces unlike their private sector parented pals .It used be that teachers would smugly wait for the next recession to feel better off than their less conservative , risk taking Merc driving mates .Well that’s all history now .WE pay for the private sectors mistakes now in the bad times ( and good )Don’t suggest I have a chip on shoulder / issues and should get counselling .I can’t afford that either !So it’s a no from me !( And I’m near pension .May the Lord help those starting out .


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  • #12
    BnB
    Registered Users Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭BnB


    Newbie20 wrote: »
    ...The last thing I would say is would you consider at all qualifying to teach Maths? It mightn’t be for you but if it was, it’s a great subject to have, always in demand and would really strengthen your hand when job hunting.

    Hi - Hope you don't mind if I butt in, but I am in a fairly similar position to the OP. My degree (from 20 years ago) would probably qualify me to teach Info Tech, but I would like to teach maths.

    I am fairly sure my undergraduate degree would make up the 60 credits required to teach Maths. Are there courses I can do to build up these credits, or would I have no option only to go back and do a full time 4 year undergraduate degree


  • #13
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    2011abc wrote: »
    In a word ( you used it ) Madness .Unless you are seriously struggling to make ends meet ( you will struggle , maybe not seriously as an established teacher but you will never have more than basic to moderate ‘comfort’ ) I would forget your plan.If you really want to scratch your ‘Oh Captain , my Captain’ itch volunteer to help tutor needy kids.Presumably your current career has the potential to make decent moolah , you’re probably already on the road to wealth .It really sucks knowing your kids are styled exclusively by Penneys ,cant go on the school tour to Italy or even get dental braces unlike their private sector parented pals .It used be that teachers would smugly wait for the next recession to feel better off than their less conservative , risk taking Merc driving mates .Well that’s all history now .WE pay for the private sectors mistakes now in the bad times ( and good )Don’t suggest I have a chip on shoulder / issues and should get counselling .I can’t afford that either !So it’s a no from me !( And I’m near pension .May the Lord help those starting out .


    This is ridiculous. Teachers are not earning like CEOs but they are not on the breadline either. I can't say I know any teachers whose kids are exclusively styled by Penneys, haven't been able to afford school tours or have not got dental work done.

    I run the school tours in my school and only the ones who are living on the absolute breadline where there is barely enough money coming into the house to pay for food were the ones not going on school tour. It really doesn't help your cause when you are describing teachers lifestyles like that of someone who is relying on social welfare.


    OP, your subjects disadvantage you somewhat because Business is an option subject for Junior Cert and that obviously has a knock on effect for Leaving Cert in any school. The positive is that you live in the Dublin area where there is the highest concentration of schools. There is more opportunity for work. Anyone who doesn't have to be in Dublin to teach isn't there. Plenty of teachers start out there and then try and move home (far harder). It might be useful for you over the summer (and I know this summer is a weird one anyway) to keep an eye on teaching jobs (advertised on educationposts.ie) and see if there are many business jobs being advertised. That might give you a better idea.


    As you are in your 30s you might already have a place to live which is a bonus in that. If you don't have a mortgage already it might be a consideration in returning to college, college fees, and job stability in the medium term.


  • #14
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    BnB wrote: »
    Hi - Hope you don't mind if I butt in, but I am in a fairly similar position to the OP. My degree (from 20 years ago) would probably qualify me to teach Info Tech, but I would like to teach maths.

    I am fairly sure my undergraduate degree would make up the 60 credits required to teach Maths. Are there courses I can do to build up these credits, or would I have no option only to go back and do a full time 4 year undergraduate degree

    Fairly sure or sure?

    You have to have maths to degree level with those 60 credits. You can do maths on a modular basis with Open University and this would be the easiest route, but it is expensive enough.

    You would need maths as IT on it's own won't be enough.


  • #15
    BnB
    Registered Users Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭BnB


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Fairly sure or sure?

    You have to have maths to degree level with those 60 credits. You can do maths on a modular basis with Open University and this would be the easiest route, but it is expensive enough.

    You would need maths as IT on it's own won't be enough.

    Hi - Thanks Rainbow.

    I haven't got a straight answer yet as it is an old degree (qualified in 1999) but 95% sure it won't. I would be shocked myself if it did, as there was very little maths in it.

    I had presumed that I would need Maths to get a job. To be honest, I actually have more interest in teaching Maths than IT anyway.

    RE Open University, that would certainly be my preferred route. If it is a bit more expensive, I don't mind. My primary concern is that I can do it part time for now and continue to work.

    How can I check if a particular Open University course will give me the right credits required by the teaching council.


  • #16
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    This is ridiculous. Teachers are not earning like CEOs but they are not on the breadline either. I can't say I know any teachers whose kids are exclusively styled by Penneys, haven't been able to afford school tours or have not got dental work done.

    I run the school tours in my school and only the ones who are living on the absolute breadline where there is barely enough money coming into the house to pay for food were the ones not going on school tour. It really doesn't help your cause when you are describing teachers lifestyles like that of someone who is relying on social welfare.

    I have to say it tallies quite well with the teachers I know who have children and who are the sole or main earner in the Dublin area. Many are on FIS or whatever the equivalent is now.


  • #17
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    BnB wrote: »
    Hi - Thanks Rainbow.

    I haven't got a straight answer yet as it is an old degree (qualified in 1999) but 95% sure it won't. I would be shocked myself if it did, as there was very little maths in it.

    I had presumed that I would need Maths to get a job. To be honest, I actually have more interest in teaching Maths than IT anyway.

    RE Open University, that would certainly be my preferred route. If it is a bit more expensive, I don't mind. My primary concern is that I can do it part time for now and continue to work.

    How can I check if a particular Open University course will give me the right credits required by the teaching council.

    It does, I did Maths through OU. This is my old thread on it.

    The names of the modules have changed but it's essentially the same stuff.
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72909954

    You can tip away at it over a couple of years if needs be and still work. Obviously there's still the need to do the PME, but maths can be done part time.

    I did my original degree around the same time as you.


  • #18
    PixiePop
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭PixiePop


    I have to agree with rainbow trout and I think there is a misperception in the public sector that everyone in the private sector is earning 6+ figures. Some are alright and there is definitely more opportunity to make your fortune by becoming a CEO etc and earning very high salaries. But for every CEO there are about 1,000 ordinary workers earning similar to teachers and others without the job security, pension and holidays. I have a level 8 law degree and a professional qualification, work in a very large firm but I know many secondary school teachers earning the same as me but for a lot less hours per week and obviously for a lot more holidays so their hourly rate works out a lot higher. And I know they work beyond the 22 teaching hours but I also work after 5:30 and over weekends too so work beyond my 37 scheduled hours on a regular basis. Tbh I don't think there is any professional job that doesn't require extra these days. Plus my salary has now been cut by 20% due to Covid-19. I have never been rich, never got bonuses etc. and many years I don't get a pay increase, even though I am in the private sector. Never had a luxury car, have a modest house. V ordinary standard of living. Now I am not saying that I'm poor, far from it. I'm that squeezed middle sector. But likewise I think most teachers fall within my category. However, I do recognise that this comfort for a teacher is only when they become permanent and there are many years of uncertainty and pay before that happens. So the teachers I am referring to are ones 10 years+ in the job. But for those teachers they are not badly off in the grand scheme of things. At least no worse off than 80% of us in the private sector. Also there are not many professional jobs outside of Dublin so lots in the private sector have to suffer the high cost of living of Dublin too.


  • #19
    antgal23
    Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭antgal23


    I am a secondary trained teacher on pay scale point 9 but I work in a special needs school. I also do Home Tuition 5 hours a week.

    It's tough getting a secondary job - my two colleagues(second trained) had to retrain as primary teachers and now they work in special needs.

    Also, why not qualify as a secondary teacher but work in a post secondary training college? You clearly have a solid skill set and I feel secondary kids won't appreciate it but college goers would.


  • #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    antgal23 wrote: »

    Also, why not qualify as a secondary teacher but work in a post secondary training college? You clearly have a solid skill set and I feel secondary kids won't appreciate it but college goers would.

    Thanks for this, when you say post secondary training college, what are they? Like further education centres but not lecturing etc? Sounds really interesting, I love the sound of that too


  • #21
    antgal23
    Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭antgal23


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Thanks for this, when you say post secondary training college, what are they? Like further education centres but not lecturing etc? Sounds really interesting, I love the sound of that too

    Yeah, it's a further education college, they are run by education and training boards e.g Louth and Meath Education Training Board

    I think there are private ones such as Marino college or Dundrum College

    Your background might be best suited to the types of courses these places offer. Also, the students want to be there so you actually teach whereas secondary can be crowd management at times

    Good luck!


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  • #22
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,270 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Marino College is not private, it is City of Dublin ETB.


  • #23
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Neither is Dundrum. It's DDLETB.


  • #24
    2011abc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭2011abc


    Rainbowtrout if you don’t live in or near a big city AND your partner is on similar money maybe a well established teacher might have a more than comfortable existence but I can tell you( as P Flynn infamously said on the Late Late Show )you try it ! I’ve been looking at the same miserable balance in my bank account for over a decade .


  • #25
    williaint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 114 ✭✭williaint


    Totally agree with everything that has been said. Not everyone in the private sector is on big bucks, and yes some of them also have degrees, postgrads, etc!

    What bothers me is teachers on the OLD payscale constantly complaining about their salary and how they are underpaid, implying their salary is a pittance, and how they could earn so much more "in industry".

    As a lower paid teacher (which the OP will be if she pursues teaching) it is insulting to hear. I have a friend who entered teaching a mere 2 years before me, he wasn't actually qualified before 2011, he just subbed unqualified and luckily got on the old payscale. Anyways he earns €10,000 gross (no exaggeration) more than me as he is on the old payscale! Scandalous!

    So please if you're permanent, full time and on the old payscale don't pretend to be on the breadline. It is insulting to lower paid teachers and those currently struggling in the private sector. If you feel you are grossly underpaid, then try your luck in industry.


    PixiePop wrote: »
    I have to agree with rainbow trout and I think there is a misperception in the public sector that everyone in the private sector is earning 6+ figures. Some are alright and there is definitely more opportunity to make your fortune by becoming a CEO etc and earning very high salaries. But for every CEO there are about 1,000 ordinary workers earning similar to teachers and others without the job security, pension and holidays. I have a level 8 law degree and a professional qualification, work in a very large firm but I know many secondary school teachers earning the same as me but for a lot less hours per week and obviously for a lot more holidays so their hourly rate works out a lot higher. And I know they work beyond the 22 teaching hours but I also work after 5:30 and over weekends too so work beyond my 37 scheduled hours on a regular basis. Tbh I don't think there is any professional job that doesn't require extra these days. Plus my salary has now been cut by 20% due to Covid-19. I have never been rich, never got bonuses etc. and many years I don't get a pay increase, even though I am in the private sector. Never had a luxury car, have a modest house. V ordinary standard of living. Now I am not saying that I'm poor, far from it. I'm that squeezed middle sector. But likewise I think most teachers fall within my category. However, I do recognise that this comfort for a teacher is only when they become permanent and there are many years of uncertainty and pay before that happens. So the teachers I am referring to are ones 10 years+ in the job. But for those teachers they are not badly off in the grand scheme of things. At least no worse off than 80% of us in the private sector. Also there are not many professional jobs outside of Dublin so lots in the private sector have to suffer the high cost of living of Dublin too.


  • #26
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Thanks for all the feedback

    I've been fortunate in my career to date that I've managed to get to a point where a lot of my bases have been covered such as mortgage and car loans etc, I've no debt and a partner who is in a permanent position that's reasonably well paid. This is partly why I was looking for a change into an industry I'd feel I'd be giving more back as opposed to chasing €€€ like I've mainly done the last ten years. That's not to say I don't need a permanent position as I absolutely would and do need a salary, obviously.

    It's quite sad though genuinely to see how little opportunity there actually is unless you have one of the core in demand subjects. Not complaining though as there's no sense of entitlement on my part. It's just a pity as I feel I could bring a lot to the table in the subjects I'm qualified to teach as opposed to having to learn one I'm not passionate about in order to get a teaching job. But c'est la vie!


  • #27
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    2011abc wrote: »
    Rainbowtrout if you don’t live in or near a big city AND your partner is on similar money maybe a well established teacher might have a more than comfortable existence but I can tell you( as P Flynn infamously said on the Late Late Show )you try it ! I’ve been looking at the same miserable balance in my bank account for over a decade .

    Not that it's relevant, but I don't have a partner. If you are looking at the same miserable balance for over a decade it suggests that your salary hasn't changed. Is that because you are on the top of the payscale? The top of the payscale is 64k plus allowances would bring it up to about 70k. That's far from miserable.


  • #28
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    williaint wrote: »
    Totally agree with everything that has been said. Not everyone in the public sector is on big bucks, and yes some of them also have degrees, postgrads, etc!

    What bothers me is teachers on the OLD payscale constantly complaining about their salary and how they are underpaid, implying their salary is a pittance, and how they could earn so much more "in industry".

    As a lower paid teacher (which the OP will be if she pursues teaching) it is insulting to hear. I have a friend who entered teaching a mere 2 years before me, he wasn't actually qualified before 2011, he just subbed unqualified and luckily got on the old payscale. Anyways he earns €10,000 gross (no exaggeration) more than me as he is on the old payscale! Scandalous!

    So please if you're permanent, full time and on the old payscale don't pretend to be on the breadline. It is insulting to lower paid teachers and those currently struggling in the private sector. If you feel you are grossly underpaid, then try your luck in industry.

    I'm sorry you feel insulted, but I 100% disagree with you. If teachers on the old scale feel it is inadequate, then they are perfectly entitled to voice that opinion. If anything, rather than being insulting to lower paid teachers, it just leads further credence to the fact that the lower scale is definitely not enough and should be addressed.

    I am on the old scale. I believe it is inadequate. I have left teaching, apart from occasional subbing when it suits me. I made that decision based mostly on money. A teaching salary, old or new, is not adequate compensation for a job requiring the training and responsibilities of teaching, for the Dublin area. Holidays do not compensate for that. The pension does not compensate for that. That's my opinion. It's obviously the opinion of many others too given there is such a shortage of teachers in the Dublin area.


  • #29
    williaint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 114 ✭✭williaint


    Great that you left teaching for a presumably better paid job with better conditions, I totally respect that!

    Bottom line :

    Permanent full-time (with 10 year plus experience) and on old pay scale = not on the breadline

    And complaining about the old pay scale does nothing to further the cause of LPTs or the public perception of teachers.

    We should look to better the conditions of those at the bottom first, not the other way round!


  • #30
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    williaint wrote: »
    Great that you left teaching for a presumably better paid job with better conditions, I totally respect that!

    Bottom line :

    Permanent full-time (with 10 year plus experience) and on old pay scale = not on the breadline

    And complaining about the old pay scale does nothing to further the cause of LPTs or the public perception of teachers.

    We should look to better the conditions of those at the bottom first, not the other way round!

    And again, I disagree. I think permanent full time on the old scale is in a very poor position when Dublin housing costs are taken into account, given the training required and responsibilities of the job. That's why I gave it up.

    I absolutely agree addressing pay inequality should be the number one priority. Nobody suggested otherwise, and I've done my fair share in fighting that battle.

    But I will still say openly that the old scale is inadequate. Nothing will change that because it is the reality that I have experienced. As for public perception - you will never win that battle, and those who spend their time worrying about it are a key reason teachers have allowed their terms and condition to be decimated over the years.


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  • #31
    dory
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭dory


    Williaint if there is still a €10k salary difference you need to sort something out. I'm ASTI rep in my place , and am just generally v interested in personal finance. Have helped a lot of colleagues out getting CIDs and talking to people about where they should be on what scale. I've been keeping a very close eye on the salary talks and how the two scales are slowly converging. The €10k was true in 2012, but I don't understand how it's still true for you. Honestly, you need to get that checked out for your own sake. You could be due a payout (currently helping someone get about €20k I believe they are owed).


    That same colleague I'm helping get a payout for showed me a payslip she has from 2004 or so. Her pay has changed very, very little in that time. I think it's fair enough that people are annoyed that over the course of 16 years their pay hasn't gone up that much. Life in general has gotten more expensive.

    To the OP. Go for it if it's what you want. Maybe talk to a principal somehow? Pretend you're going for a job this year and see how many come up on Educationposts. Industry experience is very common. And most common in business subjects. What they really want is someone who has experience with teenagers!


  • #32
    williaint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 114 ✭✭williaint


    Dory that would be amazing if I were due a payout but unfortunately I don't think it's the case.

    Yes, the gap should lessen as time goes on (provided LPTs are still able to skip some points on scale) but currently 2 years difference is about 10k...

    Me (with a Masters) in my 6th year:
    Point 7 (due to skipping Point 4) of new payscale = €44,950 (no allowances applicable)

    Colleague (no Masters) in their 8th year:
    Point 10 of old payscale (due to starting on Point 3) + allowances = 47958 + 1236 + 4918 = €54,112

    I am also implying in no way that holding a Masters makes you a better teacher but it does incur you extra costs.

    Clearly my colleague has two years more experience so it is to be expected they are earning (a little) more.

    I'm no Maths teacher and I may well have it wrong but the difference as I see it stands at €9177 for just 2 years more experience.

    Please let me know if you think me or any other LPT is worth a payout!

    quote="dory;113320935"]Williaint if there is still a €10k salary difference you need to sort something out. I'm ASTI rep in my place , and am just generally v interested in personal finance. Have helped a lot of colleagues out getting CIDs and talking to people about where they should be on what scale. I've been keeping a very close eye on the salary talks and how the two scales are slowly converging. The €10k was true in 2012, but I don't understand how it's still true for you. Honestly, you need to get that checked out for your own sake. You could be due a payout (currently helping someone get about €20k I believe they are owed).


    That same colleague I'm helping get a payout for showed me a payslip she has from 2004 or so. Her pay has changed very, very little in that time. I think it's fair enough that people are annoyed that over the course of 16 years their pay hasn't gone up that much. Life in general has gotten more expensive.

    To the OP. Go for it if it's what you want. Maybe talk to a principal somehow? Pretend you're going for a job this year and see how many come up on Educationposts. Industry experience is very common. And most common in business subjects. What they really want is someone who has experience with teenagers![/quote]


  • #33
    dory
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭dory


    Sorry, I thought you were comparing like with like. What you would be in your 8th year Vs what he could be in his 8th year. I didn't think you were using you in your 6th year.

    From what I can make out, to compare like with like the difference is €4134 (taking it that you were both in your 8th year). That has come down a lot from the €10k there used be when comparing like with like.

    I did the calculation using a person who would have skipped two points as that's what new entrants are doing. I accept that you probably didn't get to skip two as you had already gone past 3 when that came in?

    In my own case. I'm old scale, only get degree allowance. Have masters and dip but not entitled to allowance for them. When I first qualified in 2012 I made out I would have been €10k better off than if I had been on new scale (in theory, in reality it took me 5 years to make more than €20k in a year as I was part time). I just did the qualifications now. The difference is €1218 today (using one point skip as I would only have gotten to skip one. Someone a few years behind, skipping two would be better off than me by about €200.


  • #34
    PixiePop
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭PixiePop


    Ricky Rancid Wine wrote: »
    I'm sorry you feel insulted, but I 100% disagree with you. If teachers on the old scale feel it is inadequate, then they are perfectly entitled to voice that opinion. If anything, rather than being insulting to lower paid teachers, it just leads further credence to the fact that the lower scale is definitely not enough and should be addressed.

    I am on the old scale. I believe it is inadequate. I have left teaching, apart from occasional subbing when it suits me. I made that decision based mostly on money. A teaching salary, old or new, is not adequate compensation for a job requiring the training and responsibilities of teaching, for the Dublin area. Holidays do not compensate for that. The pension does not compensate for that. That's my opinion. It's obviously the opinion of many others too given there is such a shortage of teachers in the Dublin area.

    But not everyone living in Dublin is on big money. I live in Dublin earning the same as teachers but with higher childcare costs as I have to pay extra for every day schools are closed as my usual fee only covers afternoon care. I would be better off financially if i was a teacher with more holidays & job security. Now it’s my own fault for not copping that 20 yrs ago and we are where we are.


  • #35
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    PixiePop wrote: »
    But not everyone living in Dublin is on big money. I live in Dublin earning the same as teachers but with higher childcare costs as I have to pay extra for every day schools are closed as my usual fee only covers afternoon care. I would be better off financially if i was a teacher with more holidays & job security. Now it’s my own fault for not copping that 20 yrs ago and we are where we are.


    Of course not everyone is. But lots are. My experience is that most professional jobs pay a Dublin premium, and most pay significantly more than teaching after 10 years, in Dublin. I think the teaching payscale is generous at the start, but far too long, and just overall inadequate. As I said, pension and holidays don't compensate for that imo, and that was the advice I received when I sought independent financial advice. Basically, get out of teaching if you hope to live in a nice house in the Dublin area as a single person. Yes, teaching certainly offers some advantages where childcare is concerned. That's not relevant to me, but it is a big factor in the fairly homogeneous nature of those retraining for teaching these days - mostly middle class mothers who can afford Hibernia fees and are looking for a second family income that accommodates family life. Nothing wrong with that, but lack of diversity is a big problem in teaching and this is one of the issues I think, particularly in why there is a lack of men.

    If you want to be a teacher then I hope you get to do it. Don't do it for financial reasons. I want to be a teacher too, but I couldn't make it work financially without major lifestyle sacrifices I was no longer willing to make. I'm sure an upcoming recession will bring lots into teaching from the private sector for the perceived job security, just as it did the last time. You can already see an increase in enquiries here. It might address the chronic shortage of key subject teachers, though I don't know how much STEM and language jobs will be impacted in the long run. I don't see myself going back though.


  • #36
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    williaint wrote: »
    Me (with a Masters) in my 6th year:
    Point 7 (due to skipping Point 4) of new payscale = €44,950 (no allowances applicable)

    Colleague (no Masters) in their 8th year:
    Point 10 of old payscale (due to starting on Point 3) + allowances = 47958 + 1236 + 4918 = €54,112

    You need to compare like for like if you want to make a serious complaint about differences in pay. It's embarrassing to see two different salaries being compared and a 10k figure being bandied about and then to find out that the two teachers don't even have the same level of experience.

    How about comparing both of you with six years experience and show the difference there? Because you're comparing apples with oranges, and this is the type of crap that unfortunately makes it into the public psyche and makes people even less sympathetic to teachers.

    Point 8 of old payscale (6th year of experience) 44873 + 4918 + 1236 = 51027

    That's a difference of 6077, which is the difference between getting the allowances and not getting them. It's disingenuous to suggest that you are earning 10K less than your colleague when you haven't done as many years as them.


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  • #37
    williaint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 114 ✭✭williaint


    If you read my original post I clearly pointed out there was a 2 year difference between us, therefore of course they deserve to earn more. But over €9k more!!! How do 2 years difference fairly equate to over €9k?! I actually have more experience than my colleague as I was teaching abroad but that is separate issue related to incremental credit.

    And actually your calculation of over €6k in the difference for the same length of service actually reads worse...At least with mine you could use the 2 year difference as an excuse to dismiss it as "crap" which it exactly what you did. A difference of over €6k may be "crap" to you, but it's not "crap" to any LPT out there. This is precisely why LPTs will never get pay parity as when we highlight it we're often told it's not that much and "we're all in the same boat".

    But rest assured cuts will be coming again and I don't believe LPTs will or should be in the firing line this time!

    To the OP best of luck with your decision! It's great when people from industry can bring non-teaching experience to the table. :)




    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    You need to compare like for like if you want to make a serious complaint about differences in pay. It's embarrassing to see two different salaries being compared and a 10k figure being bandied about and then to find out that the two teachers don't even have the same level of experience.

    How about comparing both of you with six years experience and show the difference there? Because you're comparing apples with oranges, and this is the type of crap that unfortunately makes it into the public psyche and makes people even less sympathetic to teachers.

    Point 8 of old payscale (6th year of experience) 44873 + 4918 + 1236 = 51027

    That's a difference of 6077, which is the difference between getting the allowances and not getting them. It's disingenuous to suggest that you are earning 10K less than your colleague when you haven't done as many years as them.


  • #38
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    Ricky Rancid Wine wrote: »
    Of course not everyone is. But lots are. My experience is that most professional jobs pay a Dublin premium, and most pay significantly more than teaching after 10 years, in Dublin. I think the teaching payscale is generous at the start, but far too long, and just overall inadequate. As I said, pension and holidays don't compensate for that imo, and that was the advice I received when I sought independent financial advice. Basically, get out of teaching if you hope to live in a nice house in the Dublin area as a single person. Yes, teaching certainly offers some advantages where childcare is concerned. That's not relevant to me, but it is a big factor in the fairly homogeneous nature of those retraining for teaching these days - mostly middle class mothers who can afford Hibernia fees and are looking for a second family income that accommodates family life. Nothing wrong with that, but lack of diversity is a big problem in teaching and this is one of the issues I think, particularly in why there is a lack of men.

    If you want to be a teacher then I hope you get to do it. Don't do it for financial reasons. I want to be a teacher too, but I couldn't make it work financially without major lifestyle sacrifices I was no longer willing to make. I'm sure an upcoming recession will bring lots into teaching from the private sector for the perceived job security, just as it did the last time. You can already see an increase in enquiries here. It might address the chronic shortage of key subject teachers, though I don't know how much STEM and language jobs will be impacted in the long run. I don't see myself going back though.

    The difference is that in the other professional jobs to get pay rises there will be increasing responsibility and they'll likely be managing other people. Its not doing the same job with the same responsibilities as 10 years previously and getting paid multiples more for it.


  • #39
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    The difference is that in the other professional jobs to get pay rises there will be increasing responsibility and they'll likely be managing other people. Its not doing the same job with the same responsibilities as 10 years previously and getting paid multiples more for it.

    That hasn't been my experience.


  • #40
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    williaint wrote: »
    If you read my original post I clearly pointed out there was a 2 year difference between us, therefore of course they deserve to earn more. But over €9k more!!! How do 2 years difference fairly equate to over €9k?! I actually have more experience than my colleague as I was teaching abroad but that is separate issue related to incremental credit.

    And actually your calculation of over €6k in the difference for the same length of service actually reads worse...At least with mine you could use the 2 year difference as an excuse to dismiss it as "crap" which it exactly what you did. A difference of over €6k may be "crap" to you, but it's not "crap" to any LPT out there. This is precisely why LPTs will never get pay parity as when we highlight it we're often told it's not that much and "we're all in the same boat".

    But rest assured cuts will be coming again and I don't believe LPTs will or should be in the firing line this time!

    To the OP best of luck with your decision! It's great when people from industry can bring non-teaching experience to the table. :)


    I didn't say a 6k disparity was crap. It was comparing people with two different levels of experience. If you want to be taken seriously you need to compare like with like. Two teachers who have 6 years each on the two different payscales. Then you can see what the actually disparity is.

    Comparing with someone who has 2 more years done than you to inflate that figure is disingenuous. The extra two years between two people on the same payscale would represent approximately 3k.

    The difference you should be complaining about is the 6k different for the same work and experience but on two different pay scales. And you're right , LPTs won't get pay parity, if they are not going to argue their case with facts.


  • #41
    Treppen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭Treppen


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    The difference is that in the other professional jobs to get pay rises there will be increasing responsibility and they'll likely be managing other people. Its not doing the same job with the same responsibilities as 10 years previously and getting paid multiples more for it.

    That true, but teaching isn't another job. No more than comparing a rodeo clown to a priest, It's teaching.


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  • #42
    dory
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭dory


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    they'll likely be managing other people.

    Do you know what teachers do all day? Sometimes with 30 teenagers at a time?


  • #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    dory wrote: »
    Do you know what teachers do all day? Sometimes with 30 teenagers at a time?

    It's right there in his post:

    "doing the same job with the same responsibilities as 10 years previously "


  • #44
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    dory wrote: »
    Do you know what teachers do all day? Sometimes with 30 teenagers at a time?

    Yep, the same thing they did a decade before with no change in responsibility or expansion of role.

    Yearly increments aren't much of a thing in the private sector (and I say this as a public sector worker).


  • #45
    PixiePop
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭PixiePop


    Yes more often to get an increment in the private sector you have to show you did above what was expected in the year past and then commit to doing even more the year after


  • #46
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,270 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    So many experts on teaching, who do not actually teach. It's fantastic.


  • #47
    dory
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭dory


    spurious wrote: »
    So many experts on teaching, who do not actually teach. It's fantastic.

    I know. If only we had their intelligence and insight. We'd all do a much better job.


  • #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Bringing it back to the original question and the pandemic we are currently in, do you think teacher prospects for Secondary Business/Economics teachers would be in more or less demand post covid?


  • #49
    Treppen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭Treppen


    salonfire wrote: »
    It's right there in his post:

    "doing the same job with the same responsibilities as 10 years previously "

    Well look who it is.:pac:


  • #50
    Treppen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭Treppen


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Bringing it back to the original question and the pandemic we are currently in, do you think teacher prospects for Secondary Business/Economics teachers would be in more or less demand post covid?

    Prospects will decrease.

    Just watch this forum of 'thinking of getting into teaching' posts when recession hits. Twas the same in 2010. Should just be a sticky thread, and let the non-teaching resident experts tell em how handy it is.

    Think there should be faq .

    Q. What are the chances?
    A. Nobody knows but do you play GAA, Rugby, know any principal you could have a chat with. Primary 'was' a bit more stable than secondary.

    Q. Whats the money like?
    A. Prepare to be broke for 10 years, subbing here and there.

    Q. Is the much demand for X subject ?
    A. Irish/Maths maybe anything else it depends.

    Q. What about this fabulous pension I hear about.
    A. No it's changed. Based on career average now, So if you're starting out late in life then.l, average reduces.


  • #51
    pollymv1
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭pollymv1


    Take it from me. I've worked at Hibernia - they are money grabbers and their grads are frowned upon in schools. Having studied at DCU, the two don't compare.

    During the pandemic too, students suffer because staff are unsupported. The fees are extortionate, this is not a real educational facility.


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