Becoming a secondary school teacher

williaint

Dory that would be amazing if I were due a payout but unfortunately I don't think it's the case.

Yes, the gap should lessen as time goes on (provided LPTs are still able to skip some points on scale) but currently 2 years difference is about 10k...

Me (with a Masters) in my 6th year:
Point 7 (due to skipping Point 4) of new payscale = €44,950 (no allowances applicable)

Colleague (no Masters) in their 8th year:
Point 10 of old payscale (due to starting on Point 3) + allowances = 47958 + 1236 + 4918 = €54,112

I am also implying in no way that holding a Masters makes you a better teacher but it does incur you extra costs.

Clearly my colleague has two years more experience so it is to be expected they are earning (a little) more.

I'm no Maths teacher and I may well have it wrong but the difference as I see it stands at €9177 for just 2 years more experience.

Please let me know if you think me or any other LPT is worth a payout!

quote="dory;113320935"]Williaint if there is still a €10k salary difference you need to sort something out. I'm ASTI rep in my place , and am just generally v interested in personal finance. Have helped a lot of colleagues out getting CIDs and talking to people about where they should be on what scale. I've been keeping a very close eye on the salary talks and how the two scales are slowly converging. The €10k was true in 2012, but I don't understand how it's still true for you. Honestly, you need to get that checked out for your own sake. You could be due a payout (currently helping someone get about €20k I believe they are owed).


That same colleague I'm helping get a payout for showed me a payslip she has from 2004 or so. Her pay has changed very, very little in that time. I think it's fair enough that people are annoyed that over the course of 16 years their pay hasn't gone up that much. Life in general has gotten more expensive.

To the OP. Go for it if it's what you want. Maybe talk to a principal somehow? Pretend you're going for a job this year and see how many come up on Educationposts. Industry experience is very common. And most common in business subjects. What they really want is someone who has experience with teenagers![/quote]

dory

Sorry, I thought you were comparing like with like. What you would be in your 8th year Vs what he could be in his 8th year. I didn't think you were using you in your 6th year.

From what I can make out, to compare like with like the difference is €4134 (taking it that you were both in your 8th year). That has come down a lot from the €10k there used be when comparing like with like.

I did the calculation using a person who would have skipped two points as that's what new entrants are doing. I accept that you probably didn't get to skip two as you had already gone past 3 when that came in?

In my own case. I'm old scale, only get degree allowance. Have masters and dip but not entitled to allowance for them. When I first qualified in 2012 I made out I would have been €10k better off than if I had been on new scale (in theory, in reality it took me 5 years to make more than €20k in a year as I was part time). I just did the qualifications now. The difference is €1218 today (using one point skip as I would only have gotten to skip one. Someone a few years behind, skipping two would be better off than me by about €200.

PixiePop

Ricky Rancid Wine wrote: »

I'm sorry you feel insulted, but I 100% disagree with you. If teachers on the old scale feel it is inadequate, then they are perfectly entitled to voice that opinion. If anything, rather than being insulting to lower paid teachers, it just leads further credence to the fact that the lower scale is definitely not enough and should be addressed.

I am on the old scale. I believe it is inadequate. I have left teaching, apart from occasional subbing when it suits me. I made that decision based mostly on money. A teaching salary, old or new, is not adequate compensation for a job requiring the training and responsibilities of teaching, for the Dublin area. Holidays do not compensate for that. The pension does not compensate for that. That's my opinion. It's obviously the opinion of many others too given there is such a shortage of teachers in the Dublin area.

But not everyone living in Dublin is on big money. I live in Dublin earning the same as teachers but with higher childcare costs as I have to pay extra for every day schools are closed as my usual fee only covers afternoon care. I would be better off financially if i was a teacher with more holidays & job security. Now it’s my own fault for not copping that 20 yrs ago and we are where we are.

r93kaey5p2izun

PixiePop wrote: »

But not everyone living in Dublin is on big money. I live in Dublin earning the same as teachers but with higher childcare costs as I have to pay extra for every day schools are closed as my usual fee only covers afternoon care. I would be better off financially if i was a teacher with more holidays & job security. Now it’s my own fault for not copping that 20 yrs ago and we are where we are.

Of course not everyone is. But lots are. My experience is that most professional jobs pay a Dublin premium, and most pay significantly more than teaching after 10 years, in Dublin. I think the teaching payscale is generous at the start, but far too long, and just overall inadequate. As I said, pension and holidays don't compensate for that imo, and that was the advice I received when I sought independent financial advice. Basically, get out of teaching if you hope to live in a nice house in the Dublin area as a single person. Yes, teaching certainly offers some advantages where childcare is concerned. That's not relevant to me, but it is a big factor in the fairly homogeneous nature of those retraining for teaching these days - mostly middle class mothers who can afford Hibernia fees and are looking for a second family income that accommodates family life. Nothing wrong with that, but lack of diversity is a big problem in teaching and this is one of the issues I think, particularly in why there is a lack of men.

If you want to be a teacher then I hope you get to do it. Don't do it for financial reasons. I want to be a teacher too, but I couldn't make it work financially without major lifestyle sacrifices I was no longer willing to make. I'm sure an upcoming recession will bring lots into teaching from the private sector for the perceived job security, just as it did the last time. You can already see an increase in enquiries here. It might address the chronic shortage of key subject teachers, though I don't know how much STEM and language jobs will be impacted in the long run. I don't see myself going back though.

rainbowtrout

williaint wrote: »

Me (with a Masters) in my 6th year:
Point 7 (due to skipping Point 4) of new payscale = €44,950 (no allowances applicable)

Colleague (no Masters) in their 8th year:
Point 10 of old payscale (due to starting on Point 3) + allowances = 47958 + 1236 + 4918 = €54,112

You need to compare like for like if you want to make a serious complaint about differences in pay. It's embarrassing to see two different salaries being compared and a 10k figure being bandied about and then to find out that the two teachers don't even have the same level of experience.

How about comparing both of you with six years experience and show the difference there? Because you're comparing apples with oranges, and this is the type of crap that unfortunately makes it into the public psyche and makes people even less sympathetic to teachers.

Point 8 of old payscale (6th year of experience) 44873 + 4918 + 1236 = 51027

That's a difference of 6077, which is the difference between getting the allowances and not getting them. It's disingenuous to suggest that you are earning 10K less than your colleague when you haven't done as many years as them.

williaint

If you read my original post I clearly pointed out there was a 2 year difference between us, therefore of course they deserve to earn more. But over €9k more!!! How do 2 years difference fairly equate to over €9k?! I actually have more experience than my colleague as I was teaching abroad but that is separate issue related to incremental credit.

And actually your calculation of over €6k in the difference for the same length of service actually reads worse...At least with mine you could use the 2 year difference as an excuse to dismiss it as "crap" which it exactly what you did. A difference of over €6k may be "crap" to you, but it's not "crap" to any LPT out there. This is precisely why LPTs will never get pay parity as when we highlight it we're often told it's not that much and "we're all in the same boat".

But rest assured cuts will be coming again and I don't believe LPTs will or should be in the firing line this time!

To the OP best of luck with your decision! It's great when people from industry can bring non-teaching experience to the table.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You need to compare like for like if you want to make a serious complaint about differences in pay. It's embarrassing to see two different salaries being compared and a 10k figure being bandied about and then to find out that the two teachers don't even have the same level of experience.

How about comparing both of you with six years experience and show the difference there? Because you're comparing apples with oranges, and this is the type of crap that unfortunately makes it into the public psyche and makes people even less sympathetic to teachers.

Point 8 of old payscale (6th year of experience) 44873 + 4918 + 1236 = 51027

That's a difference of 6077, which is the difference between getting the allowances and not getting them. It's disingenuous to suggest that you are earning 10K less than your colleague when you haven't done as many years as them.

thomasdylan

Ricky Rancid Wine wrote: »

Of course not everyone is. But lots are. My experience is that most professional jobs pay a Dublin premium, and most pay significantly more than teaching after 10 years, in Dublin. I think the teaching payscale is generous at the start, but far too long, and just overall inadequate. As I said, pension and holidays don't compensate for that imo, and that was the advice I received when I sought independent financial advice. Basically, get out of teaching if you hope to live in a nice house in the Dublin area as a single person. Yes, teaching certainly offers some advantages where childcare is concerned. That's not relevant to me, but it is a big factor in the fairly homogeneous nature of those retraining for teaching these days - mostly middle class mothers who can afford Hibernia fees and are looking for a second family income that accommodates family life. Nothing wrong with that, but lack of diversity is a big problem in teaching and this is one of the issues I think, particularly in why there is a lack of men.

If you want to be a teacher then I hope you get to do it. Don't do it for financial reasons. I want to be a teacher too, but I couldn't make it work financially without major lifestyle sacrifices I was no longer willing to make. I'm sure an upcoming recession will bring lots into teaching from the private sector for the perceived job security, just as it did the last time. You can already see an increase in enquiries here. It might address the chronic shortage of key subject teachers, though I don't know how much STEM and language jobs will be impacted in the long run. I don't see myself going back though.

The difference is that in the other professional jobs to get pay rises there will be increasing responsibility and they'll likely be managing other people. Its not doing the same job with the same responsibilities as 10 years previously and getting paid multiples more for it.

r93kaey5p2izun

thomasdylan wrote: »

The difference is that in the other professional jobs to get pay rises there will be increasing responsibility and they'll likely be managing other people. Its not doing the same job with the same responsibilities as 10 years previously and getting paid multiples more for it.

That hasn't been my experience.

rainbowtrout

williaint wrote: »

If you read my original post I clearly pointed out there was a 2 year difference between us, therefore of course they deserve to earn more. But over €9k more!!! How do 2 years difference fairly equate to over €9k?! I actually have more experience than my colleague as I was teaching abroad but that is separate issue related to incremental credit.

And actually your calculation of over €6k in the difference for the same length of service actually reads worse...At least with mine you could use the 2 year difference as an excuse to dismiss it as "crap" which it exactly what you did. A difference of over €6k may be "crap" to you, but it's not "crap" to any LPT out there. This is precisely why LPTs will never get pay parity as when we highlight it we're often told it's not that much and "we're all in the same boat".

But rest assured cuts will be coming again and I don't believe LPTs will or should be in the firing line this time!

To the OP best of luck with your decision! It's great when people from industry can bring non-teaching experience to the table.

I didn't say a 6k disparity was crap. It was comparing people with two different levels of experience. If you want to be taken seriously you need to compare like with like. Two teachers who have 6 years each on the two different payscales. Then you can see what the actually disparity is.

Comparing with someone who has 2 more years done than you to inflate that figure is disingenuous. The extra two years between two people on the same payscale would represent approximately 3k.

The difference you should be complaining about is the 6k different for the same work and experience but on two different pay scales. And you're right , LPTs won't get pay parity, if they are not going to argue their case with facts.

Treppen

thomasdylan wrote: »

The difference is that in the other professional jobs to get pay rises there will be increasing responsibility and they'll likely be managing other people. Its not doing the same job with the same responsibilities as 10 years previously and getting paid multiples more for it.

That true, but teaching isn't another job. No more than comparing a rodeo clown to a priest, It's teaching.

dory

thomasdylan wrote: »

they'll likely be managing other people.

Do you know what teachers do all day? Sometimes with 30 teenagers at a time?

salonfire

dory wrote: »

Do you know what teachers do all day? Sometimes with 30 teenagers at a time?

It's right there in his post:

"doing the same job with the same responsibilities as 10 years previously "

thomasdylan

dory wrote: »

Do you know what teachers do all day? Sometimes with 30 teenagers at a time?

Yep, the same thing they did a decade before with no change in responsibility or expansion of role.

Yearly increments aren't much of a thing in the private sector (and I say this as a public sector worker).

PixiePop

Yes more often to get an increment in the private sector you have to show you did above what was expected in the year past and then commit to doing even more the year after

spurious

So many experts on teaching, who do not actually teach. It's fantastic.

dory

spurious wrote: »

So many experts on teaching, who do not actually teach. It's fantastic.

I know. If only we had their intelligence and insight. We'd all do a much better job.

Bringing it back to the original question and the pandemic we are currently in, do you think teacher prospects for Secondary Business/Economics teachers would be in more or less demand post covid?

Treppen

salonfire wrote: »

It's right there in his post:

"doing the same job with the same responsibilities as 10 years previously "

Well look who it is.:pac:

Treppen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Bringing it back to the original question and the pandemic we are currently in, do you think teacher prospects for Secondary Business/Economics teachers would be in more or less demand post covid?

Prospects will decrease.

Just watch this forum of 'thinking of getting into teaching' posts when recession hits. Twas the same in 2010. Should just be a sticky thread, and let the non-teaching resident experts tell em how handy it is.

Think there should be faq .

Q. What are the chances?
A. Nobody knows but do you play GAA, Rugby, know any principal you could have a chat with. Primary 'was' a bit more stable than secondary.

Q. Whats the money like?
A. Prepare to be broke for 10 years, subbing here and there.

Q. Is the much demand for X subject ?
A. Irish/Maths maybe anything else it depends.

Q. What about this fabulous pension I hear about.
A. No it's changed. Based on career average now, So if you're starting out late in life then.l, average reduces.

pollymv1

Take it from me. I've worked at Hibernia - they are money grabbers and their grads are frowned upon in schools. Having studied at DCU, the two don't compare.

During the pandemic too, students suffer because staff are unsupported. The fees are extortionate, this is not a real educational facility.

Treppen

pollymv1 wrote: »

Take it from me. I've worked at Hibernia - they are money grabbers and their grads are frowned upon in schools. Having studied at DCU, the two don't compare.

During the pandemic too, students suffer because staff are unsupported. The fees are extortionate, this is not a real educational facility.

Actually Maynooth is farrrr better than any measly DCU graduate. Every hiring principal knows that, Unless the principal went to Mater Dei of course.
Now trinity... they're a different breed altogether, thinking, they're great with the trinners stamp on their parchement, but we all know the course hasn't changed since 1972.
UCD is just full of rejects that didn't get the trinners interview.
St Angelas... always rabble rousing in whatever school they teach in. Handle with care.
Mary i --- very reverend.
UL -- Look they're PE teachers, no matter what their second subject is they're just adrenaline junkies who want an excuse to wear a tracksuit for the rest of their lives.
UCC-- Well there's no where else to go down there. So they'll get the job in their old school and buy a house beside the mammy like.
Hibernia!! How very dare they.

Treppen

Treppen wrote: »

Actually Maynooth is farrrr better than any measly DCU graduate. Every hiring principal knows that, Unless the principal went to Mater Dei of course.
Now trinity... they're a different breed altogether, thinking, they're great with the trinners stamp on their parchement, but we all know the course hasn't changed since 1972.
UCD is just full of rejects that didn't get the trinners interview.
St Angelas... always rabble rousing in whatever school they teach in. Handle with care.
Mary i --- very reverend.
UL -- Look they're PE teachers, no matter what their second subject is they're just adrenaline junkies who want an excuse to wear a tracksuit for the rest of their lives.
UCC-- Well there's no where else to go down there. So they'll get the job in their old school and buy a house beside the mammy like.
Hibernia!! How very dare they.

Where did this come from? Where's your arrogance coming from? You're still earning 40K a year right, regardless of where you graduate from? *Sigh*

r93kaey5p2izun

Deleted User wrote: »

Where did this come from? Where's your arrogance coming from? You're still earning 40K a year right, regardless of where you graduate from? *Sigh*

It's clearly sarcasm.

dory

Deleted User wrote: »

Where did this come from? Where's your arrogance coming from? You're still earning 40K a year right, regardless of where you graduate from? *Sigh*

You'd want to up your taking-a-joke game before standing in front of teenagers.

Point being made is it doesn't matter where you study, everyone has an opinion of which college is better. They're all grand.

Treppen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Where did this come from? Where's your arrogance coming from? You're still earning 40K a year right, regardless of where you graduate from? *Sigh*

If you want to know where it came from watch this video https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ

Treppen

pollymv1 wrote: »

Take it from me. I've worked at Hibernia - they are money grabbers and their grads are frowned upon in schools. Having studied at DCU, the two don't compare.

During the pandemic too, students suffer because staff are unsupported. The fees are extortionate, this is not a real educational facility.

First off, for someone who worked in Hibernia , how would you know what supports they've now put in for staff during the pandemic, and how would you know that students are now suffering? What's changed in Hibernia? Tutorials are still going on as normal online. Anyone on teaching placement is still in the same position as any other college. I presume you received the email about this and their ongoing discussions with the Dept. , Teaching council and QQI. What student suffering are you getting at?

I've also worked with Hibernia and have nothing bad to say about them. I supervised students on placement and by all accounts any principal or deputy were actually thankful to Hibernia, and DID take students on afterwards. Also remote schools in Ireland for the first time were able to find local applicants for jobs because GSTs were able to study from home and do on-sites on the weekend. That's a big deal in some school communities (that's what a few principals have said to me).

How extortionate are the fees compared to other colleges? Extra 2 thousand per year maybe? Well they're a private business so they factored in the savings most students can make on rent , so there's that. To me it's the same as any PME course, go in , do what's required and get teaching afterwards.
I've worked with DCU grads too and ... well ....we'll leave it there.

My mistake, I had a few glasses of wine and misinterpreted the sarcasm ! Oops

pollymv1

I still have strong connections with the college - we'll leave it there. The fees are ridiculous for a terrible student experience, environment and a poor medium for participation and learning. There is zero meaningful analysis on if grads are succeeding, because the college is solely a profit generating enterprise. They don't care what kind of education children have with essentially rookie teachers being churned out across the country.

Dickie10

if you have a side business/faamily shop/pub/farm its a grand job for casual subbing, hard to get anything stable for a good few years

Treppen

pollymv1 wrote: »

I still have strong connections with the college - we'll leave it there. The fees are ridiculous for a terrible student experience, environment and a poor medium for participation and learning. There is zero meaningful analysis on if grads are succeeding, because the college is solely a profit generating enterprise. They don't care what kind of education children have with essentially rookie teachers being churned out across the country.

How do you assess this? We get teachers from all colleges in our school and I've never had the experience of anyone from Hibernia being 'rookie', and as I said it's not what some principals have told me either. Maybe it's the cohorts I have had contact with had a lot of mature students.

Anyway, I'll also leave it there but I don't think it's fair to taint any group of students from a particular college as being inferior (especially to the college I went to!). If anything the real issue in ALL colleges is how come the majority of teachers are largely white, female, from middle class background.