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Buy house, don't pay mortgage, live rent-free for 9 years. MOD WARNING POST #268

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    #422
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Cyrus wrote: »
    what car did they have, i have seen so many references to a 191 suv, it makes it sound like a land rover but im guessing its more dacia duster :p

    Let's assume it's a 191 Dacia... what are you inferring from that...


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    #423
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    Cyrus wrote: »
    ah stop, i get that these two have used every opportunity available to frustrate the banks and to stay in the house free of charge but eventually they will have to go and can you imagine the stress that they have been under for the past however many years, who would want a life like that with 4 kids.

    are you really putting forward the hypotheisis that this is a tactic that people will now utilise?
    Yes. I've personal experience of observing people bidding beyond their means.


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    #424
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,674 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    beauf wrote: »
    Let's assume it's a 191 Dacia... what are you inferring from that...

    im inferring that its not nearly as salicious a headline, the same as the fact the papers keep referring to their million dollar pad which is in reality a pretty ordinary semi d


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    #425
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,674 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    rivegauche wrote: »
    Yes. I've personal experience of observing people bidding beyond their means.

    thats not the same thing, are you then sure that their plan is not to pay their mortgage, to stay in the house and to spend the next decade of their life dealing with a bank that wants to evict them?


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    #426
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    People without the means to consistently pay their mortgage commitments over decades are bidding on property, pushing up prices fully expectant that forbearance will be enforced upon their Lender by outside parties such as Activist groups, politicians, Judges, Master of the Four Court.
    They believe the risks of loosing their home is minimal and behave accordingly.
    It is unfortunate but true.


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    #427
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,674 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    rivegauche wrote: »
    People without the means to consistently pay their mortgage commitments over decades are bidding on property, pushing up prices fully expectant that forbearance will be enforced upon their Lender by outside parties such as Activist groups, politicians, Judges, Master of the Four Court.
    They believe the risks of loosing their home is minimal and behave accordingly.
    It is unfortunate but true.

    and how do you know these people are bidding beyond their means? if they are bound by the requirements to have a 10 - 20% deposit and can only borrow 3.5x their combined income less any deductions where are they gaming the system?

    how do you know that they are expectant that forebearance will be enforced? i doubt thats something people wander around saying.


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    #428
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    Cyrus wrote: »
    and how do you know these people are bidding beyond their means? if they are bound by the requirements to have a 10 - 20% deposit and can only borrow 3.5x their combined income less any deductions where are they gaming the system?

    how do you know that they are expectant that forebearance will be enforced? i doubt thats something people wander around saying.
    What does a wage slip that you create and print yourself mean in actuality.
    You should find more deserving people to champion.


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    #429
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,674 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    rivegauche wrote: »
    What does a wage slip that you create and print yourself mean in actuality.
    You should find more deserving people to champion.

    who am i championing?

    i am trying to understand what your thesis is, and to be honest im not any further along. Im not sure you really even believe what you are saying.


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    #430
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Cyrus wrote: »
    im inferring that its not nearly as salicious a headline, the same as the fact the papers keep referring to their million dollar pad which is in reality a pretty ordinary semi d

    For me having a new 191 Dacia, and not paying your massive debts is as shocking. I'm not sure why you think it isn't.

    What the property is, isn't the issue. Its the value of the loan, being pushed down the road.

    Its probably an issue of perspective.


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    #431
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Cyrus wrote: »
    who am i championing?

    i am trying to understand what your thesis is, and to be honest im not any further along. Im not sure you really even believe what you are saying.

    Its the poster child for moral hazard.


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    #432
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,674 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    beauf wrote: »
    For me having a new 191 Dacia, and not paying your massive debts is as shocking. I'm not sure why you think it isn't.

    What the property is, isn't the issue. Its the value of the loan, being pushed down the road.

    Its probably an issue of perspective.

    well its not as shocking, if you are paying 200 a month to have a dacia or 2k a month to have a range rover, its a much different thing.

    i dont have any sympathy for them at all, but i hate the way the coverage sensationalises it.


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    #433
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    Cyrus wrote: »
    well its not as shocking, if you are paying 200 a month to have a dacia or 2k a month to have a range rover, its a much different thing.

    i dont have any sympathy for them at all, but i hate the way the coverage sensationalises it.
    Coverage requires quotable and reportable events. They've pushed the issue in to the media. This isn't the Sun Newspaper hacking in to their answerphone messages.


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    #434
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Cyrus wrote: »
    well its not as shocking, if you are paying 200 a month to have a dacia or 2k a month to have a range rover, its a much different thing.....

    I would say its the same thing. There are people who manage to pay their mortgage or rents, and run an old car, or run no car.


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    #435
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,674 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    beauf wrote: »
    I would say its the same thing. There are people who manage to pay their mortgage or rents, and run an old car, or run no car.

    its not the same thing.


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    #436
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Cyrus wrote: »
    its not the same thing.

    The principle is the same. Its just a different amount on a luxury item.


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    #437
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,674 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    beauf wrote: »
    The principle is the same. Its just a different amount on a luxury item.

    its all whataboutery but:

    they may have bought the car after they started making mortgage payments again, i have no idea

    the car may be essential to the running of their business that allowed them to start making payments again.

    then it isnt a luxury.

    Point is we dont know. The headline is that they have a brand new SUV.


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    #438
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Cyrus wrote: »
    its all whataboutery but:

    they may have bought the car after they started making mortgage payments again, i have no idea

    the car may be essential to the running of their business that allowed them to start making payments again.

    then it isnt a luxury.

    Point is we dont know. The headline is that they have a brand new SUV.

    Even if it's business it in no way needs to be brand new.

    Such utter rubbish, they have lived mortgage free for 9 years in a home people can only dream of and in an area most couldn't even afford a she'd never mind a house.

    They are thieves just a different type where they didn't actually Rob someone at knife point etc.


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    #439
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,786 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    If it were a high end SUV I'd expect someone to say what make it was.

    The word SUV gets used a lot these days and includes those crossover cars that are all the rage now.

    Your Nissan Quasqui type vehicle for example.


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    #440
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Cyrus wrote: »
    its all whataboutery but:

    they may have bought the car after they started making mortgage payments again, i have no idea

    the car may be essential to the running of their business that allowed them to start making payments again.

    then it isnt a luxury.

    Point is we dont know. The headline is that they have a brand new SUV.

    You seem to have problem that its implied high end luxury.
    or that SUV is no longer associated with same.
    Or that a house costing over a million isn't all that special.
    Maybe its the a million isn't all that a big deal to some.

    I'm not entirely sure where you're going with any of that.

    I reckon most people issue is none of this, is that there seem to be one rule for some and another for most other people. Not that the world and life is fair but this pretty much rubbing peoples noses in it. For other people its the moral hazard this promotes. Not simply about mortgages and property, but also about debt in general.

    May people should look at it from a different perspective.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ronan-ryan-and-pamela-flood-s-legal-win-shows-strength-of-insolvency-system-1.4042955
    https://extra.ie/2019/10/08/news/irish-news/ronan-ryan-court-win


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    #441
    ShamNNspace
    Registered Users Posts: 4,644 ✭✭✭ShamNNspace


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Cyrus wrote: »
    its all whataboutery but:

    they may have bought the car after they started making mortgage payments again, i have no idea

    the car may be essential to the running of their business that allowed them to start making payments again.

    then it isnt a luxury.

    Point is we dont know. The headline is that they have a brand new SUV.

    Even if it's business it in no way needs to be brand new.

    Such utter rubbish, they have lived mortgage free for 9 years in a home people can only dream of and in an area most couldn't even afford a she'd never mind a house.

    They are thieves just a different type where they didn't actually Rob someone at knife point etc.
    "one man robs you with a shotgun, another with a fountain pen"
    Old Bob said a mouthful there


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    #442
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,674 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    beauf wrote: »
    You seem to have problem that its implied high end luxury.
    or that SUV is no longer associated with same.
    Or that a house costing over a million isn't all that special.
    Maybe its the a million isn't all that a big deal to some.

    I'm not entirely sure where you're going with any of that.

    I reckon most people issue is none of this, is that there seem to be one rule for some and another for most other people. Not that the world and life is fair but this pretty much rubbing peoples noses in it. For other people its the moral hazard this promotes. Not simply about mortgages and property, but also about debt in general.

    May people should look at it from a different perspective.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ronan-ryan-and-pamela-flood-s-legal-win-shows-strength-of-insolvency-system-1.4042955
    https://extra.ie/2019/10/08/news/irish-news/ronan-ryan-court-win

    i do have a problem with the tabloid nature of the reporting, not only specific to this but generally. All its designed for is to stoke outrage.

    i dont buy the moral hazard argument, its not a path most people would choose to go down.

    The parallell is the moral hazard of being a total layabout and getting money and housing from the state. Most of us dont do that either do we?


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    #443
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Cyrus wrote: »
    i do have a problem with the tabloid nature of the reporting, not only specific to this but generally. All its designed for is to stoke outrage.

    i dont buy the moral hazard argument, its not a path most people would choose to go down.

    The parallell is the moral hazard of being a total layabout and getting money and housing from the state. Most of us dont do that either do we?

    Most people don't do a lot of things . That doesn't those things aren't an issue or a have an influence.
    The Dunne judgment meant some who had been facing repossession decided to spend the mortgage money on their living costs instead of making repayments as the threat of repossession was lifted.

    https://www.independent.ie/business/thousands-stopped-paying-home-loans-when-repossessions-were-blocked-by-courts-central-bank-paper-36587596.html
    http://danmclaughlin.ie/blog/irish-mortgage-arrears-and-strategic-defaulters/

    There been some studies in the states which show clearly the pattern.

    Is it over stated, is it significant? All valid questions.
    People will find ways to work the system.


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    #444
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,980 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Cyrus wrote: »
    i do have a problem with the tabloid nature of the reporting, not only specific to this but generally. All its designed for is to stoke outrage.

    i dont buy the moral hazard argument, its not a path most people would choose to go down.

    The parallel is the moral hazard of being a total layabout and getting money and housing from the state. Most of us don't do that either do we?

    Its opened a viable path for people with money to go down. It shows you can use the legal system to stall for years, something a lot of not so famous people have been doing for years.


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    #445
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,674 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    Its opened a viable path for people with money to go down. It shows you can use the legal system to stall for years, something a lot of not so famous people have been doing for years.

    viable but not desirable

    there are lots of things you can do if you dont care about your reputation or your character, but most will chose not to.


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    #446
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,674 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    beauf wrote: »
    Most people don't do a lot of things . That doesn't those things aren't an issue or a have an influence.



    https://www.independent.ie/business/thousands-stopped-paying-home-loans-when-repossessions-were-blocked-by-courts-central-bank-paper-36587596.html
    http://danmclaughlin.ie/blog/irish-mortgage-arrears-and-strategic-defaulters/

    There been some studies in the states which show clearly the pattern.

    Is it over stated, is it significant? All valid questions.
    People will find ways to work the system.

    Id argue its probably not statistically significant, but thats a hunch rather than based on hard evidence, id also note this from one of your links which seems to suggest a different cohort than the subjects of this thread not paying their mortgage.

    "Those most likely to have stopped paying when the repossession risk was removed are usually found to be in negative equity, where the value of the property is less than the borrowings. They tend to have low incomes when they took out the home loan, to be paying a high variable rate and have missed payments in the past."


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    #447
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I found one link that suggested it can be as high as 50% of those not paying.

    But moral hazard or strategic default I think we see is a thing.


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    #448
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,009 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    I haven't followed all the ins and outs but a couple of points (happy to be corrected)

    1. When you stop paying your mortgage you don't gain anything, from an accounting perspective, since the missed payments and interest are added to your debt. I'd be interested to read an accounting treatment of their overall position.

    2. They are not alone in having been treated gently by the system. Number of repos where there is engagement with the courts (as basic as turning up and answering questions) is very low.

    3. The value of the property has been going up since 2012, so whichever parties have held theoretical security over this debt have seen an increase in the book value of it, along with the probability of recovering money. Not sure whether that will have offset legal costs.


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    #449
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,387 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    It is not theoretical security. The bank owns the property. Those who sign and drawdown the mortgage have that spelt out to them, and are leasing/renting the property until such time as they honour their payments in full.

    That fundamental principal is universally accepted and implemented in countries where corruption is not rife. Including 1 hour up the road in the six counties of Northern Ireland. Or 1 hours flight to any country in continental Europe you care to mention.


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    #450
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,009 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    It is not theoretical security.
    It's theoretical if you can't ever repo.


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    #451
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    It is not theoretical security. The bank owns the property. Those who sign and drawdown the mortgage have that spelt out to them, and are leasing/renting the property until such time as they honour their payments in full.

    I don't think there's anything in this paragraph that's accurate.


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