Is Ireland an Egalitarian Society?

Derdwerker · 04-06-2020 11:39am #1

In light of what’s happening across the Atlantic, I’ve developed a new appreciation for Ireland. We’re not perfect, but pretty much every citizen is afforded the same basic opportunities and social protections. Are we as close to egalitarian as possible? Why? Why not?

mr_fegelien · 04-06-2020 12:24pm

No the Scandinavians are. We have high taxes but a ****ty healthcare system and poor transportation. My German friends laugh when they see the state of the LUAS, DART, buses.

lalababa · 04-06-2020 12:27pm

Probably,

JL555 · 04-06-2020 12:34pm

We do have a lot of opportunities here compared to other countries for sure, but also have a long way to go. Sure, we're not perfect, but no society is.
Equality has come a long way here, but what is noticeable more and more IMO is that differences of opinion are not tolerated by certain people who, ironically enough are the very ones who proclaim they are in fact tolerant. I think that kind of divisive behaviour causes more erosions for equality as we strive to be more equal.

Derdwerker · 04-06-2020 12:34pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

No the Scandinavians are. We have high taxes but a ****ty healthcare system and poor transportation. My German friends laugh when they see the state of the LUAS, DART, buses.

That’s not what egalitarian means though.

Derdwerker · 04-06-2020 12:36pm

JL555 wrote: »

We do have a lot of opportunities here compared to other countries for sure, but also have a long way to go. Sure, we're not perfect, but no society is.
Equality has come a long way here, but what is noticeable more and more IMO is that differences of opinion are not tolerated by certain people who, ironically enough are the very ones who proclaim they are in fact tolerant. I think that kind of divisive behaviour causes more erosions for equality as we strive to be more equal.

I’ve noticed this as well. The national student body in Ireland (can’t remember the name, too lazy to look it up) recently shot the down a motion to attempt to engage with all aspects of the political spectrum, which is a pretty damming thought.

KiKi III · 04-06-2020 12:38pm

I’d say we’re not bad at all.

Women, minorities, younger people and the working class are wildly underrepresented in politics but thankfully this is changing over time.

Edgware · 04-06-2020 12:38pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

No the Scandinavians are. We have high taxes but a ****ty healthcare system and poor transportation. My German friends laugh when they see the state of the LUAS, DART, buses.

Of course the Germans always knew how to make the most efficient use of railways for transporting large numbers of people

cgcsb · 04-06-2020 12:41pm

We are egalitarian compared to the rest of the Anglosphere (we've never really been a full fledged, badge wearing Anglosphere member anyway). Compared to the mainland we are not egalitarian having adopted a partially-British view of ownership (cars and houses) and public services, you still get incels online here declaring fatwa against those who might live in social housing, while ignoring that in cities most Europeans live in social housing.

I would say with certainty that our education system is very egalitarian.

Feisar · 04-06-2020 12:51pm

KiKi III wrote: »

I’d say we’re not bad at all.

Women, minorities, younger people and the working class are wildly underrepresented in politics but thankfully this is changing over time.

All agreed apart from the "younger people". There is nothing stopping young people from joining any of the parties.

Derdwerker · 04-06-2020 12:53pm

Feisar wrote: »

All agreed apart from the "younger people". There is nothing stopping young people from joining any of the parties.

I don’t think there’s anything stopping any group joining/getting involved with parties or politics though.

I’d imagine most parties would salivate at the idea of rolling out minority candidates at the hope of hoovering up votes.

Hammer89 · 04-06-2020 12:56pm

That would be an ecumenical matter.

One eyed Jack · 04-06-2020 1:00pm

Derdwerker wrote: »

In light of what’s happening across the Atlantic, I’ve developed a new appreciation for Ireland. We’re not perfect, but pretty much every citizen is afforded the same basic opportunities and social protections. Are we as close to egalitarian as possible? Why? Why not?

No, we’re nowhere near an egalitarian society, thankfully. It’s an awful ideology which requires perceiving all people in any given society as being born equal in the first place. Everyone in any given society has advantages and disadvantages which are peculiar to their circumstances, and some people make the most of the opportunities they see, other people don’t, and expect that the State should provide for them the same outcomes as people whom they see as having more advantages than them.

I’m quite happy to live in a society which has no pretensions of egalitarianism and is more driven and motivated by fairness, than equality.

titan18 · 04-06-2020 1:06pm

Derdwerker wrote: »

I don’t think there’s anything stopping any group joining/getting involved with parties or politics though.

I’d imagine most parties would salivate at the idea of rolling out minority candidates at the hope of hoovering up votes.

Nothing stopping anyone running as an independent either really. Time is probably the only barrier for most people

Derdwerker · 04-06-2020 1:19pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, we’re nowhere near an egalitarian society, thankfully. It’s an awful ideology which requires perceiving all people in any given society as being born equal in the first place. Everyone in any given society has advantages and disadvantages which are peculiar to their circumstances, and some people make the most of the opportunities they see, other people don’t, and expect that the State should provide for them the same outcomes as people whom they see as having more advantages than them.

I’m quite happy to live in a society which has no pretensions of egalitarianism and is more driven and motivated by fairness, than equality.

Egalitarian means equality of opportunity in my mind, not equality of outcome. Not everyone is equal by nature.

One eyed Jack · 04-06-2020 1:40pm

Derdwerker wrote: »

Egalitarian means equality of opportunity in my mind, not equality of outcome. Not everyone is equal by nature.

Even by that definition, Irish society is more concerned with all people being treated fairly on the basis of merit, than all people being afforded the same basic opportunities and social protections. Of course all people aren’t equal by nature, and attempting to engineer society in a way that attempts to balance out those inequalities in the pursuit of equality is predicated upon treating people unfairly, which is why egalitarianism is just neither a popular social or political philosophy.

KiKi III · 04-06-2020 1:56pm

Equality means everybody goes up the same steps into a public building. Everyone gets treated the same. Fairness is providing a ramp for wheelchair access. Sometimes equality of outcome is what matters.

Risingshadoo · 04-06-2020 1:56pm

Derdwerker wrote: »

In light of what’s happening across the Atlantic, I’ve developed a new appreciation for Ireland. We’re not perfect, but pretty much every citizen is afforded the same basic opportunities and social protections. Are we as close to egalitarian as possible? Why? Why not?

No we're racist as fuk.

One eyed Jack · 04-06-2020 2:13pm

KiKi III wrote: »

Equality means everybody goes up the same steps into a public building. Everyone gets treated the same. Fairness is providing a ramp for wheelchair access. Sometimes equality of outcome is what matters.

Equality of outcome only matters to those people who perceive inequality or disadvantages in outcomes for other people whom they perceive as having an advantage or advantages in one way or another over them, advantages that they want, but haven’t earned and therefore aren’t entitled to.

In your analogy it would be unfair for example to remove the steps for those people who can use them, in order to force everyone to use the ramp, so that those people who can’t use the steps aren’t at a disadvantage. The outcome is that some people are treated unfairly so that everyone is equally disadvantaged. With everyone using the ramps, access is still an issue for people who can’t use the steps, and now can’t use the ramps either.

Equality of outcome is just short-sighted thinking.

mariaalice · 04-06-2020 2:18pm

Gini Co-efficient
One measurement which is produced on equality is the Gini coefficient. This is the most commonly used measure of income inequality. The coefficient varies between 0, which reflects complete equality and 100, which indicates complete inequality (one person has all the income or consumption, all others have none). The Gini coefficient for Ireland in 2017 was 30.6, an increase from 29.6 in 2016. The Gini Coefficient in the EU in 2017 was 30.7. Across the EU it ranged from 40.2 in Bulgaria, to 24.5 in Czechia, and 26.0 in Belgium.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

Widley considered the best mesuranment we are not doing badly at all.

RobbingBandit · 04-06-2020 2:19pm

Equality in Ireland hahaha no no we don't have equality here by any means, public and private hospitals where health insurance will jump you to the best of care, try being an adult with an intellectual disability trying to get by or garner support.

Geuze · 04-06-2020 2:21pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

No the Scandinavians are. We have high taxes but a ****ty healthcare system and poor transportation. My German friends laugh when they see the state of the LUAS, DART, buses.

Taxes are not high in Ireland. They are middling.

KiKi III · 04-06-2020 2:23pm

Geuze wrote: »

Taxes are not high in Ireland. They are middling.

They’re high for what you get

Geuze · 04-06-2020 2:25pm

KiKi III wrote: »

They’re high for what you get

My parents pay 9% direct tax on 50k combined income.

They get:

two med cards
two FTP
free TV licence
35 pm off elec

as well as roads/hosps/educations, etc.

9% direct tax on 50k is very, very low compared to other countries.

We are a very generous country.

WesternZulu · 04-06-2020 2:27pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

No the Scandinavians are. We have high taxes but a ****ty healthcare system and poor transportation. My German friends laugh when they see the state of the LUAS, DART, buses.

Bull****...ireland's health service is quite good besides people constantly peddling that it's comparable to a third world country.

It constantly comes ahead of the UK's NHS in global rankings for instance:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-world-ranking-uk-healthcare-worse-ireland-spain-slovenia-30th-lancet-a7744131.html

It came in 11th place in this Lancet study out of 195 countries:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)30994-2/fulltext

With Ireland it's a capacity issue with our health service and double jobing at an admin level that leads to money not being spend in the best possible way. As for the health service, my mother and father both had serious medical procedures carried out in the last decade and the care they got was unbelievable.

KiKi III · 04-06-2020 2:31pm

Geuze wrote: »

My parents pay 9% direct tax on 50k combined income.

They get:

two med cards
two FTP
free TV licence
35 pm off elec

as well as roads/hosps/educations, etc.

9% direct tax on 50k is very, very low compared to other countries.

We are a very generous country.

Your parent’s income at €25k each roughly is far below the average industrial wage. It makes sense that their tax would be low and that they would be entitled to supports.

If you’re a single person earning €60k you get taxed a lot (about 30% overall) and get very little in terms of entitlements.

One eyed Jack · 04-06-2020 2:32pm

KiKi III wrote: »

They’re high for what you get

They’re very low for what everyone gets though, which is the whole point of taxation - providing an income to the Exchequer in order that the State provides for services to society such as healthcare, infrastructure, education and so on. For what people are paying into the system, they’re getting incredible value. Individual taxpayers amounts really don’t amount to much in terms of the total amount of income generated by taxation.

nthclare · 04-06-2020 2:41pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

No the Scandinavians are. We have high taxes but a ****ty healthcare system and poor transportation. My German friends laugh when they see the state of the LUAS, DART, buses.

Well if some people take care of themselves more and stop filling up doctors surgeries and emergency rooms with superficial injuries and illnesses like colds and flu's then we'd have more room for people who really need help. Like cancer patients, orthopaedic and long term illnesses, the elderly and kid's are very important too.
Also people who have mental health problems should be looked after more.

I'm 44 and I haven't been to the doctor in two years, it doesn't make me lesser or better than anyone else.
But I get plenty of fresh air and water, eat properly and don't drink smoke or go drugging.
Have some hobbies and a good social circle.

I'm still a bit of a rogue and can stoke the flames of boards.ie but feck it, it's better out than in.

If people drank less and stopped drugging and had a good life/work balance there's some room for important medical intervention for those that require it.

Mrs OBumble · 04-06-2020 2:44pm

No.

There are employers in Galway who look at incoming CVs, and if they see an address in certain areas, the CV goes straight in the bin

Derdwerker · 04-06-2020 2:51pm

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Equality in Ireland hahaha no no we don't have equality here by any means, public and private hospitals where health insurance will jump you to the best of care, try being an adult with an intellectual disability trying to get by or garner support.

Equality and egalitarianism are different. Equality is a myth, and completely unachievable.

mariaalice · 04-06-2020 2:51pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

No.

There are employers in Galway who look at incoming CVs, and if they see an address in certain areas, the CV goes straight in the bin

That is predigest and petty snobbery which is a different thing.

Derdwerker · 04-06-2020 2:52pm

KiKi III wrote: »

Your parent’s income at €25k each roughly is far below the average industrial wage. It makes sense that their tax would be low and that they would be entitled to supports.

If you’re a single person earning €60k you get taxed a lot (about 30% overall) and get very little in terms of entitlements.

Everything over 75k is taxed at 52%. Anyone living in Dublin knows that 75k isn’t exactly flush.

Derdwerker · 04-06-2020 2:53pm

mariaalice wrote: »

That is predigest and petty snobbery which is a different thing.

This.

A lot of people commenting haven’t read the actual question.

The Raging Bile Duct · 04-06-2020 2:54pm

nthclare wrote: »

I'm still a bit of a rogue and can stoke the flames of boards.ie but feck it, it's better out than in.

It must be very fulfilling being an internet hardman.

One eyed Jack · 04-06-2020 2:58pm

Derdwerker wrote: »

Equality and egalitarianism are different. Equality is a myth, and completely unachievable.

Egalitarianism is just as much a myth as equality - they’re both impractical ideological philosophies, both equally achievable or unachievable depending upon ones perspective of reality.

topper75 · 04-06-2020 4:41pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

No.

There are employers in Galway who look at incoming CVs, and if they see an address in certain areas, the CV goes straight in the bin

If true, the only people who would know this would be the people throwing them in the bin.

Them, and that man in the pub that time of course.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 04-06-2020 7:27pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

No the Scandinavians are. We have high taxes but a ****ty healthcare system and poor transportation. My German friends laugh when they see the state of the LUAS, DART, buses.

The worst airport I’ve ever been in was in Berlin and it was the worst by quite a margin. An absolute hellhole. And the second airport supposedly isn’t much better. Both regularly feature in top ten worst airports lists. They have built a new airport that was sitting idle for nearly a decade because of design flaws and corruption. Maybe your German friends should wipe the smirks off their faces.

Sarcozies · 04-06-2020 8:03pm

KiKi III wrote: »

I’d say we’re not bad at all.

Women, minorities, younger people and the working class are wildly underrepresented in politics but thankfully this is changing over time.

And blind people and deaf people and people under 4 foot and people over 7 foot and people with alopecia and people with one leg and two arms and people with two legs and one arm and people with one leg and one arm....

KiKi III · 04-06-2020 8:38pm

Sarcozies wrote: »

And blind people and deaf people and people under 4 foot and people over 7 foot and people with alopecia and people with one leg and two arms and people with two legs and one arm and people with one leg and one arm....

Good point, I missed people with disabilities off my list.

the_pen_turner · 04-06-2020 9:25pm

no way are we equal .
how can we sort out discrimintion based on skin colour, race, religion, etc when we cant even do it based on gender. every family in the this country is made up of men and women , our parents, bothers/sisters, sons daughters and we are not treating both genders equally.

nthclare · 04-06-2020 9:31pm

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

It must be very fulfilling being an internet hardman.

Lol very funny, if you dunk me in your raging bile duct I'll fall apart like a digestive...

Your joke went down well, but since you're thinking through your arse it's a soft attempt at sh17 spreading..

Keep me entertained pleeeraseeee

Mad_maxx · 04-06-2020 9:36pm

Geuze wrote: »

My parents pay 9% direct tax on 50k combined income.

They get:

two med cards
two FTP
free TV licence
35 pm off elec

as well as roads/hosps/educations, etc.

9% direct tax on 50k is very, very low compared to other countries.

We are a very generous country.

we spoil the elderly in this country but its popular so politicians go with it

alias no.9 · 04-06-2020 9:41pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

The worst airport I’ve ever been in was in Berlin and it was the worst by quite a margin. An absolute hellhole. And the second airport supposedly isn’t much better. Both regularly feature in top ten worst airports lists. They have built a new airport that was sitting idle for nearly a decade because of design flaws and corruption. Maybe your German friends should wipe the smirks off their faces.

I flew into one and out of the other on a trip last year. I naively expected the one I was flying home from to be the nice one given that I arrived into a **** hole, alas it was worse.

Berlin Brandenberg would give many a sense of perspective on the children's hospital, which may overrun on costs but will be finished to the highest standards.

05-06-2020 12:40pm

KiKi III wrote: »

Equality means everybody goes up the same steps into a public building. Everyone gets treated the same. Fairness is providing a ramp for wheelchair access. Sometimes equality of outcome is what matters.

Providing a ramp is equality of opportunity. Equality of outcome would be giving the wheelchair user an engine in the wheelchair to race against Usain Bolt.

05-06-2020 12:44pm

Derdwerker wrote: »

Equality and egalitarianism are different. Equality is a myth, and completely unachievable.

It is achievable. Pol Pot and Kim Jong-un made a good stab at it. As did that fella in Venezuela. Except for themselves and their close party apparatchiks. The likes of Mary Lou, Richard Boyd Barrett and Paul Murphy would make a good stab at it here given the chance.

eviltwin · 05-06-2020 12:47pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

No.

There are employers in Galway who look at incoming CVs, and if they see an address in certain areas, the CV goes straight in the bin

How do you know? Would they openly admit to doing that?

Derdwerker · 05-06-2020 12:55pm

eviltwin wrote: »

How do you know? Would they openly admit to doing that?

Maybe he does it himself?

Edgware · 05-06-2020 2:18pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

No.

There are employers in Galway who look at incoming CVs, and if they see an address in certain areas, the CV goes straight in the bin

Are they the same employers who tell the receptionist to bin C.V.s handed in by anyone wearing tracksuit bottoms and white socks?

Rodney Bathgate · 05-06-2020 2:19pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

No the Scandinavians are. We have high taxes but a ****ty healthcare system and poor transportation. My German friends laugh when they see the state of the LUAS, DART, buses.

Have you ever paid taxes in your life? Seriously? What do you know about taxes?

RandomViewer · 05-06-2020 2:20pm

cgcsb wrote: »

We are egalitarian compared to the rest of the Anglosphere (we've never really been a full fledged, badge wearing Anglosphere member anyway). Compared to the mainland we are not egalitarian having adopted a partially-British view of ownership (cars and houses) and public services, you still get incels online here declaring fatwa against those who might live in social housing, while ignoring that in cities most Europeans live in social housing.

I would say with certainty that our education system is very egalitarian.

Mainland?

Rodney Bathgate · 05-06-2020 2:22pm

Edgware wrote: »

Of course the Germans always knew how to make the most efficient use of railways for transporting large numbers of people

He’s probably never heard of World War 2...

Is Ireland an Egalitarian Society?

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