Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

extra gravy wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1268622750463062017?s=19

What an incoherent mess, full of deflection and whataboutery as usual. Never has a President talked so much but said so little.

Carfacemandog wrote: »

1. There is no difference between Nazi and Hitler, given Hitler founded and led the Nazi party through basically it's entire existence barring a brief period after his suicide, and did so as the undisputed, unquestioned 'leader'. That you are trying to use "Mattis compared Trump to the NAZIS not HITLER is astounding though entirely expected, to be honest.

2. Mattis did not jump before being pushed, as John Kelly who was Chief of Staff has asserted. You might not like that but it is what it is. Serving under this administration is an embarrassment, a tarnishing on your record, and he had had enough.

3. Criticising Trump is not 'angling for political position', the fact that you can't see past this again shows a reflexive need to ignore the facts or reality. You will need to show how he has been looking to get into political positions, which political positions, and how in order to have any credibility in this statement whatsoever.

It is incredibly how easy it is to predict responses from Trump's defenders hence why I pre-empted this correctly, only to see you try it anyway with the goalposts shifted to (quelle surprise) whataboutism of previous presidents. So now tell me, which of these presidents had their own secretarial appointees comparing them to Hitler and the Nazis?

Again back to a straw man about 'no voting' which we covered only a few posts back. There is nothing realistic in your posts made on this subject, as you have not backed them up with anything of worth nor note.


Running through their shared fascist tendencies with a mix of copy/paste from this article by experts on fascism, and my own words: https://www.gq.com/story/is-america-heading-towards-fascism

1. An Era of Social Upheaval - Fascism tends to arise out of a very specific set of circumstances: when a group of people that once felt politically and economically secure suddenly finds themselves feeling marginalized. After World War I, devastating hyperinflation and unemployment exacerbated the humiliation of Germany’s defeat, fomenting widespread disillusionment among its citizens. In his review of historian Hannah Arendt’s classic work The Origins of Totalitarianism, Isaac describes a “generalized crisis of legitimacy” throughout post-war Europe in which “large numbers of people felt dispossessed, disenfranchised, and disconnected from dominant social institutions,” unsure how they fit into the emerging world order—if at all anymore. This a perfect descriptor for a lot of Trump's modern day support, especially 'rust belters'.

2. A Nostalgia for a Lost, Glorious Past - German dictator Adolf Hitler cast his Third Reich as the successor to the pre-war German Empire, and to the Holy Roman Empire before that vs Trump's "Make America Great Again" (compared to when, exactly?)

3. The Scapegoating of Minority Groups
Once a group has identified a problem, they must identify a way to fix it. And this, says Dumm, is a key moment in the emergence of fascism. “When people are feeling insecure about their status, they can go one of two ways,” he explains. “They can say, ‘We have to work together to make things better.’ But the fascist response is to find scapegoats, and build the idea things will be better if these people are marginalized and dealt with.” ... Academic studies of 2016 Trump voters suggest that white Christian males were more motivated by the perceived loss of their group's dominant status than by economic well-being. Scapegoating enables people to duck their collective responsibility to solve hard problems, or to even think about what causes foundational economic shifts in the first place. It is easier, for example, to blame immigrants and refugees for disappearing jobs than it is to grapple with the intertwined complexities of globalization, climate change, and the steady accumulation of corporate power.

4. A Strongman Savior - fascism relies on a strong, charismatic authoritarian figure, uniquely equipped to do what must be done to solve the problem without allowing pesky institutions to stand in the way. The leader becomes the vessel for the authentic will of the people, and any dissenters become enemies of the state. ... Egomaniacal, almost messianic declarations are common among fascist strongmen. ... Hitler declared himself the true representative of “have-nots” everywhere. “I know that the whole German nation is behind me,” he said. “I am the guardian of its future, and I act accordingly.” ... While accepting his party’s presidential nomination at the Republication National Convention in 2016, Trump declared his own political uniqueness. “Nobody knows the system better than me,” he told attendees, “which is why I alone can fix it.”

5. The Stifling of Dissent - Hitler consolidated power by suspending civil liberties and cutting the legislature out of the lawmaking process. We are seeing this today in Trump's attempts to completely undermine the law, primarily through William Barr who was appointed on the back of a 19 page letter explcitly arguing the law does not apply to Trump, with mail in voting rights (mail in voting that Trump uses) being the latest of many examples ... He has, for example, referred to journalists as “the enemy of the people,” frequently calling out specific outlets and reporters who publish stories he does not like. He has also advocated for the imprisonment of political rivals, asserted that Democratic politicians "hate America," and dismissed as illegitimate any attempts to exercise oversight over his administration’s alleged wrongdoing.

6. Ritualistic Communal Bonding - Rallies are integral to the strength of fascism because they reiterate its core promises: that the nation must be restored to its rightful place in the world, and the leader is solely capable of bringing about that result. ... In Nazi Germany, rallies were choreographed affairs that built party loyalty and glorified nationalistic might. Hitler wrote of the “suggestive ecstasy” that comes with having one’s views affirmed by thousands of fellow rally-goers, and relied heavily on stage lighting and other theatrical effects to enthrall audiences with spectacle. Trump, a show business and social media personality before entering politics, understands the importance of spectacle, too. His “Make America Great Again” rallies are televised rituals in which he encourages attendees to join one another—and him—in acts of cathartic release. (In a recent op-ed, the New York Times’s Jamelle Bouie attributed Trump’s “unbreakable bond" with supporters to the permission he gives them to “express their sense of siege.”)

---

Expanding further in my own words with a few other examples, including but absolutely not limited to:
Moving beyond that, we have the fact that Trump wedged his way into the public consciousness using a new medium that could reach the masses which most other politicians had not fully latched on to, and which would allow him to shout down others and create an echo chamber, namely social media and especially Twitter. This is also true of Hitler, as the inventor of the megaphone went to his grave feeling somewhat responsible for the rise of the Nazi party due to Hitler's (and Goebbels') masterful use of it, while many other politicians were simply shouting from the top of their lungs at much smaller gatherings.

We have the systemic use of concentration camps for some of the vilified minorities upon whom societies problems can be blamed, from above. Sure it's 'their rapists and murderers' that are coming to the southern US border, who cares if they get thrown into concentration camps, children separated from their parents and all in the process? Thankfully Trump's are not on the scale nor murderous tendencies of Hitler's, but to be honest at this point I would not find myself all that surprised if he were to attempt to use similar for protesters seen on the street, or if he were to escalate their 'uses'.

Trump also literally borrows language and phrases used by explicit supporters of Hitler and the Nazi party during the 1930s and 40s in the US, particularly 'America First'.

Then you have the fact that Trump's administration has been found to have actual white supremacists and neo Nazis within it, perhaps most notably Stephen Miller, which is why they actual U.S Justice Department were sending links to anti-Semitic websites to prominent Jewish groups, in other words not even trying to hide it - https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/08/23/federal-judges-received-link-an-anti-semitic-blog-post-it-came-justice-department/ . Trump refuses to so much as acknowledge any of this, never mind act against it.

You also have the dehumanisation and attempts to paint those politically opposed to him as 'violent animals' and the likes, while glossing over and ignoring the violence of his own 'very fine' supporters, something Hitler and the Nazis used to great effect to silence opposition and even frame their own supporters acts of violence as committed by others. For all his eagerness to call in the actual army to slaughter protesters in recent days, it was only a few weeks ago that Trump was actively calling for armed uprisings to 'liberate' states with Democratic governors who refused to reopen for him.

The aggressive stuffing of the federal courts with judges based on nothing more than political ideology (many of whom have been entirely under-qualified, some even without a single trial's worth of experience) and subjecting them to executive oversight (e.g. "don't step out of line") fits in perfectly with Gleichschaltung, as the Nazi's had a bit of an obsession with trying to do just about everything that the Weimar administration before them had put in place just as Trump is with Obama.

The list could go on and on, but it largely revolves around:
- Build populist, angry following on a vague sense of nostalgia and anger about the present, directing said anger towards particular groups who can be blamed for all of societies wrongs rather than looking at the wider picture.
- Unify this following with constant engagement, rallies, and contact to reinforce these ideas, vilify all opposition as 'liars' and create a siege mentality so that any dissenting voices will not be listened to regardless of their validity. This also makes it clear to all within that stepping out of line will create serious issues for anyone who dates (the recent movie Jojo Rabbit captured this quite well). Place yourself as an infallible strong man with all the answers for any issue that might arise, and anyone who dissents as merely jealous of your glory or an enemy of the people.
- Use this anger to mobilise your voter base, both to the booth and out into the public to intimidate and threaten anyone who dares speak against you.
- If/when this escalates into violence, ensure to blame the opposition wherever possible and avoid doing so with your own supporters. Downplay your own supporters instances of violence while using any and all from the opposition as reasons to further impose your own authority, preferably with structures in place to do so with minimal obstruction (courts under your control, a congress that will refuse to convict you even when they admit you are guilty, etc). Wherever possible, blow up any institution that might not be willing to submit to you as such (typically referred to as purges, though they can also be mass resignations)/
- If the opportunity to escalate the violence and tensions in instances involving opposition occurs, always always always take it.
- Never let an opportunity pass to sow division among any who speak out against you in any capacity whatsoever, even when it might seem unnecessary to the casual onlooker. If two separate groups in the opposition have their own disagreements but believe they can still work together and very much see you as the common enemy, make sure you and your support are at all instances shouting how "the [opposition] are eating each other!" and use this to reinforce your dehumanisation of them as uncivil, inferior, and entirely unfit to rule.
- Inch by inch, use the above tactics to try and take over every facet of government, and as many aspects of public and private life as possible. Turn up the temperature as appropriate - what your supporters might not agree with today, they can be convinced are perfectly acceptable tomorrow or the day after (which has very much been a feature of the last 3-4 years of the Trump presidency, predictions of his actions his supporters would have given a "lol yeah right!" response to in 2016 or 2017, they in 2020 will instead respond to with "yeah, and he is right").

Harry Palmr wrote: »

It's genuinely impressive how the President of the United States can, with a poker face troll every decent person in the country he "leads".

peddlelies wrote: »

He might even be able to hear the chants of "pigs in a blanket fry em like bacon" or "what do we want? Dead cops. When do we want them now?" from his window. Good laugh alright.

peddlelies wrote: »

Look at crime statistics, it's not an easy problem to solve. Many cops and innocent store owners were murdered over the past few days.

peddlelies wrote: »

Look at crime statistics, it's not an easy problem to solve. Many cops and innocent store owners were murdered over the past few days.

peddlelies wrote: »

I'm obviously not against peaceful protestors and I'm not going to spend 30 minutes on phone searching for every officer or store owner shot, you can do that yourself.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1223386

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/dave-patrick-underwood-rip-11591054196

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/las-vegas-police-officer-shot-head-protests/

Itssoeasy wrote: »

An update on that, the 75 members of the buffalo tactical response unit have resigned from that unit in support of the two officers who were suspended because of the incident and I've highlighted. So it seems given all the things that have happened and when there is proof of the incident their fellow officers take their side.

Christy42 wrote: »

57 officers. Not 75.

Only a few bad eggs and yet here are 59 of them in one area. You would think they would be trying to help the pr that force are not out to only protect and serve themselves.

banie01 wrote: »

What's particularly telling is that these officers have resigned solely from the Emergency Response Team and not from the police force.

A show of support for their colleagues, while being very sure not to endanger their employment and pension rights.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Good point. I find his age a great drawback. It's not ageist to say that a a 78 year old might not have sufficient energy for four years in what is probably the most high pressure job in the world. That's simply a fact. But the Dems have decided that he's for them so that's that. In terms of character and though he's not perfect, for a politician, I see much to admire in Biden. And not just by contrast with Trump - as standalone person and politician.

Carfacemandog wrote: »

1. There is no difference between Nazi and Hitler, given Hitler founded and led the Nazi party through basically it's entire existence barring a brief period after his suicide, and did so as the undisputed, unquestioned 'leader'. That you are trying to use "Mattis compared Trump to the NAZIS not HITLER is astounding though entirely expected, to be honest.

2. Mattis did not jump before being pushed, as John Kelly who was Chief of Staff has asserted. You might not like that but it is what it is. Serving under this administration is an embarrassment, a tarnishing on your record, and he had had enough.

3. Criticising Trump is not 'angling for political position', the fact that you can't see past this again shows a reflexive need to ignore the facts or reality. You will need to show how he has been looking to get into political positions, which political positions, and how in order to have any credibility in this statement whatsoever.

It is incredibly how easy it is to predict responses from Trump's defenders hence why I pre-empted this correctly, only to see you try it anyway with the goalposts shifted to (quelle surprise) whataboutism of previous presidents. So now tell me, which of these presidents had their own secretarial appointees comparing them to Hitler and the Nazis?

Again back to a straw man about 'no voting' which we covered only a few posts back. There is nothing realistic in your posts made on this subject, as you have not backed them up with anything of worth nor note.


Running through their shared fascist tendencies with a mix of copy/paste from this article by experts on fascism, and my own words: https://www.gq.com/story/is-america-heading-towards-fascism

1. An Era of Social Upheaval - Fascism tends to arise out of a very specific set of circumstances: when a group of people that once felt politically and economically secure suddenly finds themselves feeling marginalized. After World War I, devastating hyperinflation and unemployment exacerbated the humiliation of Germany’s defeat, fomenting widespread disillusionment among its citizens. In his review of historian Hannah Arendt’s classic work The Origins of Totalitarianism, Isaac describes a “generalized crisis of legitimacy” throughout post-war Europe in which “large numbers of people felt dispossessed, disenfranchised, and disconnected from dominant social institutions,” unsure how they fit into the emerging world order—if at all anymore. This a perfect descriptor for a lot of Trump's modern day support, especially 'rust belters'.

2. A Nostalgia for a Lost, Glorious Past - German dictator Adolf Hitler cast his Third Reich as the successor to the pre-war German Empire, and to the Holy Roman Empire before that vs Trump's "Make America Great Again" (compared to when, exactly?)

3. The Scapegoating of Minority Groups
Once a group has identified a problem, they must identify a way to fix it. And this, says Dumm, is a key moment in the emergence of fascism. “When people are feeling insecure about their status, they can go one of two ways,” he explains. “They can say, ‘We have to work together to make things better.’ But the fascist response is to find scapegoats, and build the idea things will be better if these people are marginalized and dealt with.” ... Academic studies of 2016 Trump voters suggest that white Christian males were more motivated by the perceived loss of their group's dominant status than by economic well-being. Scapegoating enables people to duck their collective responsibility to solve hard problems, or to even think about what causes foundational economic shifts in the first place. It is easier, for example, to blame immigrants and refugees for disappearing jobs than it is to grapple with the intertwined complexities of globalization, climate change, and the steady accumulation of corporate power.

4. A Strongman Savior - fascism relies on a strong, charismatic authoritarian figure, uniquely equipped to do what must be done to solve the problem without allowing pesky institutions to stand in the way. The leader becomes the vessel for the authentic will of the people, and any dissenters become enemies of the state. ... Egomaniacal, almost messianic declarations are common among fascist strongmen. ... Hitler declared himself the true representative of “have-nots” everywhere. “I know that the whole German nation is behind me,” he said. “I am the guardian of its future, and I act accordingly.” ... While accepting his party’s presidential nomination at the Republication National Convention in 2016, Trump declared his own political uniqueness. “Nobody knows the system better than me,” he told attendees, “which is why I alone can fix it.”

5. The Stifling of Dissent - Hitler consolidated power by suspending civil liberties and cutting the legislature out of the lawmaking process. We are seeing this today in Trump's attempts to completely undermine the law, primarily through William Barr who was appointed on the back of a 19 page letter explcitly arguing the law does not apply to Trump, with mail in voting rights (mail in voting that Trump uses) being the latest of many examples ... He has, for example, referred to journalists as “the enemy of the people,” frequently calling out specific outlets and reporters who publish stories he does not like. He has also advocated for the imprisonment of political rivals, asserted that Democratic politicians "hate America," and dismissed as illegitimate any attempts to exercise oversight over his administration’s alleged wrongdoing.

6. Ritualistic Communal Bonding - Rallies are integral to the strength of fascism because they reiterate its core promises: that the nation must be restored to its rightful place in the world, and the leader is solely capable of bringing about that result. ... In Nazi Germany, rallies were choreographed affairs that built party loyalty and glorified nationalistic might. Hitler wrote of the “suggestive ecstasy” that comes with having one’s views affirmed by thousands of fellow rally-goers, and relied heavily on stage lighting and other theatrical effects to enthrall audiences with spectacle. Trump, a show business and social media personality before entering politics, understands the importance of spectacle, too. His “Make America Great Again” rallies are televised rituals in which he encourages attendees to join one another—and him—in acts of cathartic release. (In a recent op-ed, the New York Times’s Jamelle Bouie attributed Trump’s “unbreakable bond" with supporters to the permission he gives them to “express their sense of siege.”)

---

Expanding further in my own words with a few other examples, including but absolutely not limited to:
Moving beyond that, we have the fact that Trump wedged his way into the public consciousness using a new medium that could reach the masses which most other politicians had not fully latched on to, and which would allow him to shout down others and create an echo chamber, namely social media and especially Twitter. This is also true of Hitler, as the inventor of the megaphone went to his grave feeling somewhat responsible for the rise of the Nazi party due to Hitler's (and Goebbels') masterful use of it, while many other politicians were simply shouting from the top of their lungs at much smaller gatherings.

We have the systemic use of concentration camps for some of the vilified minorities upon whom societies problems can be blamed, from above. Sure it's 'their rapists and murderers' that are coming to the southern US border, who cares if they get thrown into concentration camps, children separated from their parents and all in the process? Thankfully Trump's are not on the scale nor murderous tendencies of Hitler's, but to be honest at this point I would not find myself all that surprised if he were to attempt to use similar for protesters seen on the street, or if he were to escalate their 'uses'.

Trump also literally borrows language and phrases used by explicit supporters of Hitler and the Nazi party during the 1930s and 40s in the US, particularly 'America First'.

Then you have the fact that Trump's administration has been found to have actual white supremacists and neo Nazis within it, perhaps most notably Stephen Miller, which is why they actual U.S Justice Department were sending links to anti-Semitic websites to prominent Jewish groups, in other words not even trying to hide it - https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/08/23/federal-judges-received-link-an-anti-semitic-blog-post-it-came-justice-department/ . Trump refuses to so much as acknowledge any of this, never mind act against it.

You also have the dehumanisation and attempts to paint those politically opposed to him as 'violent animals' and the likes, while glossing over and ignoring the violence of his own 'very fine' supporters, something Hitler and the Nazis used to great effect to silence opposition and even frame their own supporters acts of violence as committed by others. For all his eagerness to call in the actual army to slaughter protesters in recent days, it was only a few weeks ago that Trump was actively calling for armed uprisings to 'liberate' states with Democratic governors who refused to reopen for him.

The aggressive stuffing of the federal courts with judges based on nothing more than political ideology (many of whom have been entirely under-qualified, some even without a single trial's worth of experience) and subjecting them to executive oversight (e.g. "don't step out of line") fits in perfectly with Gleichschaltung, as the Nazi's had a bit of an obsession with trying to do just about everything that the Weimar administration before them had put in place just as Trump is with Obama.

The list could go on and on, but it largely revolves around:
- Build populist, angry following on a vague sense of nostalgia and anger about the present, directing said anger towards particular groups who can be blamed for all of societies wrongs rather than looking at the wider picture.
- Unify this following with constant engagement, rallies, and contact to reinforce these ideas, vilify all opposition as 'liars' and create a siege mentality so that any dissenting voices will not be listened to regardless of their validity. This also makes it clear to all within that stepping out of line will create serious issues for anyone who dates (the recent movie Jojo Rabbit captured this quite well). Place yourself as an infallible strong man with all the answers for any issue that might arise, and anyone who dissents as merely jealous of your glory or an enemy of the people.
- Use this anger to mobilise your voter base, both to the booth and out into the public to intimidate and threaten anyone who dares speak against you.
- If/when this escalates into violence, ensure to blame the opposition wherever possible and avoid doing so with your own supporters. Downplay your own supporters instances of violence while using any and all from the opposition as reasons to further impose your own authority, preferably with structures in place to do so with minimal obstruction (courts under your control, a congress that will refuse to convict you even when they admit you are guilty, etc). Wherever possible, blow up any institution that might not be willing to submit to you as such (typically referred to as purges, though they can also be mass resignations)/
- If the opportunity to escalate the violence and tensions in instances involving opposition occurs, always always always take it.
- Never let an opportunity pass to sow division among any who speak out against you in any capacity whatsoever, even when it might seem unnecessary to the casual onlooker. If two separate groups in the opposition have their own disagreements but believe they can still work together and very much see you as the common enemy, make sure you and your support are at all instances shouting how "the [opposition] are eating each other!" and use this to reinforce your dehumanisation of them as uncivil, inferior, and entirely unfit to rule.
- Inch by inch, use the above tactics to try and take over every facet of government, and as many aspects of public and private life as possible. Turn up the temperature as appropriate - what your supporters might not agree with today, they can be convinced are perfectly acceptable tomorrow or the day after (which has very much been a feature of the last 3-4 years of the Trump presidency, predictions of his actions his supporters would have given a "lol yeah right!" response to in 2016 or 2017, they in 2020 will instead respond to with "yeah, and he is right").

Roanmore wrote: »

https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1269199720813072384

Fox News yesterday, how can they get away with it?

This and Carlson naming every celebrity who donated money to people’s bail shows how Fox News are a disgusting news organisation