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LGBT and Islam

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    When you get all of your information from the sort of right-wing social media bubble that considers Ben Shapiro to be an intellectual, characters like Savage take on a certain messianic quality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭magma69


    It's because both communities have a recent history of suffering intolerance, bigotry and hyperbolic media persecution. Islam, obviously, more recently than the LGBT community.

    In any case, the idea that Muslims automatically agree with Sharia law and want to implement it in western society is absolute bull**** to anyone who spends even a little time informing themselves by actually spending time with Muslims and talking to them, rather than reading tabloids and listening to right-wing podcasts; as most people, while being devout (to either religion) aren't as homophobic as a lot of people would like us to think.

    Agree with your first paragraph and I'm not down with the dehumanisation of Muslims like most of the userbase here seem to be.

    Your second point however simply isn't true. The vast majority of Muslims are homophobic. This research shows roughly an average of 3% that say it is morally acceptable.

    https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-morality/

    Half of all British Muslims think it should be illegal. Half. In a totally Westernised country, half still think gays should be classified criminals so don't be giving the "ah stop being Islamophobic, they're grand" ****e.

    There's a massive issue here and anyone downplaying or ignoring the issue is no ally of the movement for equal rights for LGBT.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,039 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    magma69 wrote: »
    Agree with your first paragraph and I'm not down with the dehumanisation of Muslims like most of the userbase here seem to be.

    Your second point however simply isn't true. The vast majority of Muslims are homophobic. This research shows roughly an average of 3% that say it isn't morally acceptable.

    https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-morality/

    Half of all British Muslims think it should be illegal. Half. In a totally Westernised country, half still think gays should be classified criminals so don't be giving the "ah stop being Islamophobic, they're grand" ****e.

    There's a massive issue here and anyone downplaying or ignoring the issue is no ally of the movement for equal rights for LGBT.

    Culture and values do not matter any more. Pigmentation is the only game in town for much of the modern Left.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Danzy wrote: »
    Culture and values do not matter any more. Pigmentation is the only game in town for much of the modern Left.

    So you embrace Islam as a culture equal to your own? Or are you some kind of commie?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,701 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    I think that Islam is a very dangerous idea for those from the LGBT community or feminists to align themselves with.

    Yes, we should all be against discrimination however how much power do we want to give religious ideas, any religious ideas. We should be promoting the secular society and people should be keeping religion to themselves. I am very uncomfortable with the protests at the moment in the UK against teaching kids to be tolerant.

    I think we all need to be very careful who we align with.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    biko wrote: »
    Why don't the LGBT signs says "LGBT against religious persecution" which would encompass all religions.
    Why do they focus on Islam only?

    Objectively Christians are more persecuted worldwide.


    Why don't you address any actual points when you get answers? Are you just reading from a script for your own YouTube video or something? The reason LGBT in UK and Ireland would be focused on "Islamophobia" is because that is followers of that religion that are being most discriminated against in the UK and Ireland. And quite often, people use the LGBT community to justify their discrimination against Muslims, despite not being advocates for LGBT in any other area.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    I think that Islam is a very dangerous idea for those from the LGBT community or feminists to align themselves with.

    Yes, we should all be against discrimination however how much power do we want to give religious ideas, any religious ideas. We should be promoting the secular society and people should be keeping religion to themselves. I am very uncomfortable with the protests at the moment in the UK against teaching kids to be tolerant.

    I think we all need to be very careful who we align with.


    They are not mutually exclusive positions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    MrFresh wrote: »
    And quite often, people use the LGBT community to justify their discrimination against Muslims, despite not being advocates for LGBT in any other area.

    It happened enough times here. The usual suspects that were against gay marriage and female autonomy suddenly became rather concerned for gays and women when Tommy Robinson needed defending.


  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    It happened enough times here. The usual suspects that were against gay marriage and female autonomy suddenly became rather concerned for gays and women when Tommy Robinson needed defending.

    Got it in one,

    Then spend time giving out about the pride celebrations, the media reporting when two gay women are attacked, while trying to shoehorn in it was probably Muslims.


  • Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭Das Reich


    Because both groups are very tolerant, but only if you agree 100% with them.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Or you could accept the fact that people aren't drones who slavishly comply with each and every detail in their holy book of choice, a feat which would be impossible in any case.

    I've seen the cherrypicking and the "any criticism of Islam" is hate speech nonsense before. No thanks.

    Conservative Christians and Muslims will have more Scriptural views on matters than those who are more liberal or non-practising.

    Therefore they are more likely to be at disagreement with secular standards. That's simply a reality. There's another question about how we navigate that obvious fact.

    The stuff about being drones or whatever else. This is how you might see being either a conservative Christian or Muslim, but I don't think they particularly care if you think that they are being a drone because they consider their walk to be enjoying fellowship with God.
    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I absolutely stand for his right to free speech. I do not stand for free hate speech.

    I don't care if they're Christian, Muslim, white, black, gay or straight.

    But you already know this, you attempted a strawman and it was awful.

    Free speech is not "free" if you can't say offensive things.

    The problem with "hate speech" laws is that they are entirely arbitrary. There is no clear definition as to what constitutes "hate speech". It's much better to allow people to say what they want and have society moderate it. If we simply restrict speech with no form of counterargument we simply give credence to the notion that offensive ideas have no response and cannot be argued against.
    I think that Islam is a very dangerous idea for those from the LGBT community or feminists to align themselves with.

    Yes, we should all be against discrimination however how much power do we want to give religious ideas, any religious ideas. We should be promoting the secular society and people should be keeping religion to themselves. I am very uncomfortable with the protests at the moment in the UK against teaching kids to be tolerant.

    I think we all need to be very careful who we align with.

    You say that religious people should keep it to themselves. Why do you think that's a realistic prospect if they genuinely believe the world needs to hear about their faith? Do you think they are genuinely going to put what "secular society" wants above their God? That's obviously not in their interests from their perspective.

    Also tolerance means something different today to what it meant historically. Historically tolerance means you've got your opinion, I've got mine, that's OK. Now tolerance means you must agree with my position or else. That's actually not very tolerant.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    We can never equate all Islam with extremism. It doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny.
    People extending olive branches like the LGBT in the OP Marching against islamaphohia is as important as small a gesture as it is as the Muslims here breaking their Ramadan fast to break bread with the LGBT community in mosques here in Dublin when the Florida shooting happened at that gay club.

    It’s the small actions like these by good people regardless of faith or sexuality that build bridges and dissolves prejudices and preconceived notions and ignorance.

    We live in an era of misleading outrage headlines which leads to extremes.
    Fact is the almost entire majority of people exist in the middle and are decent. Again. Regardless of creed or sexuality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    I've seen those Protests in Birmingham on the news/etc.
    Some of the protesters don't even have kids in the school or relatives.
    It's hilarious watching some of the videos.
    They said ''A Gay'' in a certain tone.
    They protesters clearly don't want for kids to learn about different types of families.

    Here is a typical anti LGBT muslim outside that school,.
    I wonder what people's thoughts are on him saying that god "...created woman for man's pleasure".

    https://news.sky.com/video/god-created-women-for-mens-pleasure-11722583


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    I think that Islam is a very dangerous idea for those from the LGBT community or feminists to align themselves with.

    Yes, we should all be against discrimination however how much power do we want to give religious ideas, any religious ideas. We should be promoting the secular society and people should be keeping religion to themselves. I am very uncomfortable with the protests at the moment in the UK against teaching kids to be tolerant.

    I think we all need to be very careful who we align with.
    Very much agreed.

    And yeah I know there are plenty of muslims who are good, peaceful people (obviously - shouldn't need to be said) and really don't deserve what gets levelled at all muslims but it's a faith that staunchly condemns homosexuality. Christian fundamentalism does too, but that doesn't get defended by the LGBTQ community - and the punishments are much more severe from the former. It's not "Love the sinner" (Christianity), it's "kill the sinner".

    I do think it's to tick a liberal box. A need to be seen as a certain way.

    Like being in favour of the choice to have late-term abortions - but appalled by any lack of kindness when it suits.

    Like being bizarrely and pigheadedly defensive of travellers despite the appalling record of ill treatment of women within that community.

    Defending anti social scumbags as the misunderstood "working class" (when they don't work).

    Enraged about child abuse by clergy, quiet about the sex abuse rings in England.

    Losing their sh1t over the vaguest slight against women here; quiet about The Handmaid's Tale esque (and worse) horrors against women around the world.

    Pacifist, yet pro violence against Trump supporters.

    But elements on the right are as bad:

    Utter woman haters pretending to care about women's rights in muslim communities, ditto when it comes to gay and trans folk.

    Pretending to be outraged by abortion extremely early on when nothing has even formed - yet not a sh1t given about kids in Syria.

    "If you can't afford children, don't have them" yet pretending to be anti abortion.

    Pretending to care about about the disabled in when it comes to abortion but otherwise poking fun at them, calling them retards etc.

    Pretending to care about the homeless, etc.

    Cognitive dissonance in order to tick certain boxes is a common thing among those a good deal to the left or right.


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,976 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    Here is a typical anti LGBT muslim outside that school,.
    I wonder what people's thoughts are on him saying that god "...created woman for man's pleasure".

    https://news.sky.com/video/god-created-women-for-mens-pleasure-11722583

    All the video's a similar to this. I think they had to ban an uncle of one of the kids from using his mega phone outside the school.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Billy Mays wrote: »
    That Michael Savage?

    Crazy as a box of frogs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    Here is a typical anti LGBT muslim outside that school,.
    I wonder what people's thoughts are on him saying that god "...created woman for man's pleasure".

    https://news.sky.com/video/god-created-women-for-mens-pleasure-11722583

    He's a cnut and his religion is cnutish but that doesn't mean that he every muslim is a cnut.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    He's a cnut and his religion is cnutish but that doesn't mean that he every muslim is a cnut.

    It's a shame that purveyors of anti-intellectual filth like Alex Jones and Ben Shapiro have eroded debating standards to such a level that basic clarification like this is necessary in the midst of all the strawmen.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    Ah I dunno about Ben Shapiro. A person can be staunchly conservative yet still intelligent and capable of making good points.

    But Alex Jones... another example of the cognitive dissonance: knowing he's talking utter lunacy yet pretending he's a reasonable person talking total sense (just because he's on the right). And he's clearly mentally ill, but his crowd won't poke fun at him (mental illness is usually their go-to to describe people they don't like).


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,323 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    Here is a typical anti LGBT muslim outside that school,.
    I wonder what people's thoughts are on him saying that god "...created woman for man's pleasure".

    https://news.sky.com/video/god-created-women-for-mens-pleasure-11722583

    Hiw do you know he is "typical" of the protesters there? Have they all been interviewed?

    Does his having those beliefs mean we should think that all muslims hold the same beliefs?


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Ah I dunno about Ben Shapiro. A person can be staunchly conservative yet still intelligent and capable of making good points.

    But Alex Jones... another example of the cognitive dissonance: knowing he's talking utter lunacy yet pretending he's a reasonable person talking total sense (just because he's on the right). And he's clearly mentally ill, but his crowd won't poke fun at him (mental illness is usually their go-to to describe people they don't like).

    I've watched a few Shapiro videos and the only thing that sets him apart is the tricks he uses in debates. He's clearly intelligent but his recent interview fiasco with Andrew Neil just exposed him as someone who debates for sport instead of for making a reasoned case.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    Hiw do you know he is "typical" of the protesters there? Have they all been interviewed?

    Given the amount of news coverage / video and the number of interviews I would feel safe to say yes he is typical. As for the rest of them, they are protesting along with him, so you can draw your own conclusions.
    Does his having those beliefs mean we should think that all muslims hold the same beliefs?

    No, as I said in an earlier post, it was nice to see a couple of young muslim girls, wearing their hijabs, enjoying the stars from RuPaul's Drag Race show Werk the World at the Bord Gais theatre recently.
    But I also pointed out that the mosque in Clonskeagh used their website to direct followers to vote No in the same sex marriage referendum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,862 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    I think in my experience people are often interested in ring fencing minorities for protection merely for BEING minorities. But criticism of their ideas as a minority are fair game.

    My own motto is "Respect people, never ideas". But often people can not tell the difference. Either by attacking the minority instead of their ideas or.... in the other direction.... mistaking protection of minorities as a ring fence protection of their ideas.

    Here in Ireland Muslims are a minority. I would want to ring fence them for protection for THAT reason.

    However their ideas.... Islam itself..... is to me one of the more dangerous and damaging and awful religions making it's way into our culture and I think it is fair game for robust attack and criticism.

    This is exactly it. Islam is a dangerous ideology and if it's followers take it seriously, it would probably be worse than Christianity (and Christianity prescribes death for gays too). But in Ireland the catholics are the problem. They have historical influence. As much as some people would like to imagine the Muslims are a big problem, they really aren't in Ireland. Luckily for us the catholics don't tend to take the their religion seriously. If they did, we would be much less progressive than we are now.

    Second, the issue of discrimination. If I heard someone call all Catholic paedophiles, I'd challenge them. Or if they proposed treating Catholics badly, id challenge them. Likewise I'd challenge someone calling all Muslims terrorists. That doesn't mean I like either Catholicism or Islam.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,039 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    Given the amount of news coverage / video and the number of interviews I would feel safe to say yes he is typical. As for the rest of them, they are protesting along with him, so you can draw your own conclusions.



    No, as I said in an earlier post, it was nice to see a couple of young muslim girls, wearing their hijabs, enjoying the stars from RuPaul's Drag Race show Werk the World at the Bord Gais theatre recently.
    But I also pointed out that the mosque in Clonskeagh used their website to direct followers to vote No in the same sex marriage referendum.

    Clonskeagh is deeply intolerant and hard line.

    The head of its Fatwa council has said that putting gays to death is "to maintain the purity of the Islamic society and to keep it clean of perverted elements".

    He isn't viewed as contentious.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    https://www.amazon.com/Liberalism-Mental-Disorder-Savage-Solutions-ebook/dp/B006IED8RO

    This thing of dismissing points of view that you don't like as mental illness - a fairly irrational approach in and of itself. Pretty sure only psychiatrists can diagnose mental disorders. By his criteria the same assessment could be made regarding some far right views.

    Two sides of the same coin - with a lot more in common than they'd dream of admitting.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    I’d love to know why a certain cohort of ordinary people (usually Male) are so threatened and made feel insecure by women, gays, Muslims or anything that isn’t them or doesny look or behave like them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,323 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    Given the amount of news coverage / video and the number of interviews I would feel safe to say yes he is typical. As for the rest of them, they are protesting along with him, so you can draw your own conclusions.



    No, as I said in an earlier post, it was nice to see a couple of young muslim girls, wearing their hijabs, enjoying the stars from RuPaul's Drag Race show Werk the World at the Bord Gais theatre recently.
    But I also pointed out that the mosque in Clonskeagh used their website to direct followers to vote No in the same sex marriage referendum.

    So you presume to know the monds of all of the protesters because of that mans opinion? There were some pretty out there prople during the ssm, abortion, divorce referenda so should we presume that the few who said or did disgraceful things represent everyone who was at those protests?

    The roman catholic church has on may occasions directed their followers to vote no on subjects such as SSM, contraception, divorce etc. So what?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    The roman catholic church has on may occasions directed their followers to vote no on subjects such as SSM, contraception, divorce etc. So what?

    That's right, and I don't agree with their views either..


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,323 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    That's right, and I don't agree with their views either..

    I guess we both agree that the leaders of religions are idiotic fvckwits so and they should shut up about these issues.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Shapiro makes some good well agued points on a variety of topics, he's not a moron, but i couldn't listen to him after it became clear he is incapable of distinguishing between reasonable criticism of Israeli government settlement policy and antisemitism. his intelligence didnt stretch that far.


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