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Healthy baby aborted at 15 weeks

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    #332
    bilbot79
    Registered Users Posts: 1,979 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    I can't blame the parents here. We don't know what they have been through, how many miscarriages before etc.

    Perhaps they have had to abort or induce miscarriage many times before and had very little reason to doubt the 1% statistic. Really the medical procedures should control these events as the couple, fraught with emotion and turmoil, may not be the best decision makers.


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    #333
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    stefanovich wrote: »
    It did happen. Then it was killed.

    The "it" I described, which you conveniently edited out of my post when replying to it, did not at all happen no. So let us not pretend "it" did, or allow people like yourself to distort the meanings of others that transparently and disingenuously.


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    #334
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,210 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    The "it" I described, which you conveniently edited out of my post when replying to it, did not at all happen no. So let us not pretend "it" did, or allow people like yourself to distort the meanings of others that transparently and disingenuously.

    Him and his lot have been waiting months for a chance like this. They wont stop now. Even the first page has a drone banging on about the beloved "8th amendment" and "lefty liberals"


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    #335
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    bilbot79 wrote: »
    I can't blame the parents here. We don't know what they have been through, how many miscarriages before etc.

    Perhaps they have had to abort or induce miscarriage many times before and had very little reason to doubt the 1% statistic. Really the medical procedures should control these events as the couple, fraught with emotion and turmoil, may not be the best decision makers.

    Even though I am generally pro life I am not blaming the parents here if they knew nothing about the second test and fully believed there was no hope. If they did know in a week or so a second test was due, I'm not comfortable with their position.
    Actually I've had many miscarriages, ten of them in fact and I kinda think having previous miscarriages as you say would make someone hang on to any hope not the opposite. Women clearly having miscarriages will usually still be telling themselves that all will be fine.


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    #336
    Sittingpretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,872 ✭✭✭Sittingpretty


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    Even though I am generally pro life I am not blaming the parents here if they knew nothing about the second test and fully believed there was no hope. If they did know in a week or so a second test was due, I'm not comfortable with their position.
    Actually I've had many miscarriages, ten of them in fact and I kinda think having previous miscarriages as you say would make someone hang on to any hope not the opposite. Women clearly having miscarriages will usually still be telling themselves that all will be fine.

    I’ve had multiple m/c also and you are right, even when you know in your soul it’s happening again you still hope against hope that you are wrong until the VERY last minute before it is confirmed by a dr.


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    #337
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    The "it" I described, which you conveniently edited out of my post when replying to it, did not at all happen no. So let us not pretend "it" did, or allow people like yourself to distort the meanings of others that transparently and disingenuously.

    I used the word "it" because I did not know the gender of the child not to dehumanise like yourself.


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    #338
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    pjohnson wrote: »
    Him and his lot have been waiting months for a chance like this. They wont stop now. Even the first page has a drone banging on about the beloved "8th amendment" and "lefty liberals"

    What lot am I? What group to you think I belong to?

    I am 100% against abortion because I think it is morally wrong to end another human's life.


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    #339
    Phil.x
    Registered Users Posts: 1,723 ✭✭✭Phil.x


    troyzer wrote: »

    Allowing couples to decide to terminate a pregnancy with little chance of life is the compassionate thing to do.

    Really!! Is that for the woman or child? I don't think the child would agree, just like the healthy child in this case.


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    #340
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Phil.x wrote: »
    Really!! Is that for the woman or child? I don't think the child would agree, just like the healthy child in this case.

    Laziness and lack of respect for life. A winning combination.


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    #341
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,828 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Laziness and lack of respect for life. A winning combination.

    That's a disgusting way to refer to the medical profession. Mistakes get made. Humans are fallable.


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    #342
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,828 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Phil.x wrote: »
    Really!! Is that for the woman or child? I don't think the child would agree, just like the healthy child in this case.

    Have you ever thought about the child that may be suffering pain or distress for months in the womb ?


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    #343
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,210 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    stefanovich wrote: »
    What lot am I? What group to you think I belong to?

    I am 100% against abortion because I think it is morally wrong to end another human's life.

    The old outdated anti-choice relic from the Catholic fearing 70's.

    If you took off the 8th blinkers you will see that the fault is with the hospital for not waiting to get ALL the results before advising/procedeing with the procedure. But your 8th fetish absolves the hospital and blames the parent for terminating a doomed foetus due to misinformation.
    Discodog wrote: »
    That's a disgusting way to refer to the medical profession. Mistakes get made. Humans are fallable.

    Its the parents he is aiming at i reckon. He already accused them of "playing victim". Its not the hospitals fault. Just the fault of parents and those who took away the 8th.


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    #344
    kaymin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭kaymin


    pjohnson wrote: »
    The old outdated anti-choice relic from the Catholic fearing 70's.

    If you took off the 8th blinkers you will see that the fault is with the hospital for not waiting to get ALL the results before advising/procedeing with the procedure. But your 8th fetish absolves the hospital and blames the parent for terminating a doomed foetus due to misinformation.

    Why are you putting it all on the hospital and why are posters continuously saying the medical staff made a mistake? Anything I've read suggests that's not the case. The IT indicates it was the parents that made the hasty decision.

    Rotunda Hospital master Prof Fergal Malone said because the rapid test can give a false positive if there is no ultrasound abnormality most laboratories recommend to wait for the full two weeks.

    “But some patients are not prepared to wait the two weeks and want to continue to termination. Generally we recommend that they get the total picture.”


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    #345
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    For me, if I understand this story correctly, the shocking thing was the haste. It's disgusting, to me, whoever decided it, that 7 more days couldn't be waited for until the other conclusive test came back. .

    I think you will find that the Savita Halappanavar case has made doctors and administrators alike very nervous.

    Basically, they will not want to be in the middle of another screamfest that was the Savita Halappanavar death and will move heaven and earth to avoid the remote possibility of it happening again, even though Arulkumaran report was pretty clear that is was bad medical practice that killed her, not abortion law per say. (What bad medical practice in the HSE? Well I never!!)

    Can you imagine so, if something happened to the mother while she had to wait that week or two to get clarification? We would have had the usual cohorts on the streets, pounding the pavements demanding why her 'rights' have not adhered to..etc.etc..

    I wonder will they be marching now, this weekend to commemorate the loss of an innocent life, like they did with Savita?

    The report will be interesting to see if doctors pressured the parents into making a quick decision on this or not.


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    #346
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Discodog wrote: »
    That's a disgusting way to refer to the medical profession. Mistakes get made. Humans are fallable.

    I was referring to the parents actually. You don't accidentally abort a baby, that was done purposefully.


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    #347
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Discodog wrote: »
    That's a disgusting way to refer to the medical profession. Mistakes get made. Humans are fallable.

    Ah, yes humans are indeed fallible.

    The thing is though. If a doctor or medical professional causes death to a person due to negligence, they will lose their license to practice and the HSE will get sued for millions, and rightly so. In more extreme cases they can face criminal prosecution.

    In this case, because it was a 15-week old baby, I guess we can strike it off as bad luck.


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    #348
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    pjohnson wrote: »
    The old outdated anti-choice relic from the Catholic fearing 70's.
    We should all have the choice to do whatever we please?

    Not catholic. I'm just a person with morals.


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    #349
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,828 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    stefanovich wrote: »
    I was referring to the parents actually. You don't accidentally abort a baby, that was done purposefully.

    Their decision was based on medical advice. Of course they are accidental victims. You may disagree with the law but it is the law & it has the support of a majority of the public.

    Who will be the doctors of the future if they are not allowed to make a mistake ?


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    #350
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    Discodog wrote: »
    Have you ever thought about the child that may be suffering pain or distress for months in the womb ?

    Just on that, is it not true, from what is known,that a baby in the womb cannot feel pain up to I think around 20 weeks. So the baby feeling any pain has no bearing on this case. The baby feeling pain was not why this child was aborted when it was.


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    #351
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Discodog wrote: »
    Their decision was based on medical advice. Of course they are accidental victims. You may disagree with the law but it is the law & it has the support of a majority of the public.

    Who will be the doctors of the future if they are not allowed to make a mistake ?

    Was it though? The doctors advised them to abort? I doubt it.


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    #352
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,828 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    stefanovich wrote: »
    We should all have the choice to do whatever we please?

    Not catholic. I'm just a person with morals.

    & now you suggest that those who disagree with you don't have morals too


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    #353
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    Just on that, is it not true, from what is known,that a baby in the womb cannot feel pain up to I think around 20 weeks. So the baby feeling any pain has no bearing on this case. The baby feeling pain was not why this child was aborted when it was.

    Suddenly it's a child who can feel pain once the test results come back negative.


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    #354
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Discodog wrote: »
    & now you suggest that those who disagree with you don't have morals too

    They have very different morals.


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    #355
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Discodog wrote: »
    Their decision was based on medical advice. Of course they are accidental victims. You may disagree with the law but it is the law & it has the support of a majority of the public.

    Who will be the doctors of the future if they are not allowed to make a mistake ?


    Funny, Savita Halappanavar was also an accidental victim, where doctors made mistakes.
    Were you hiding these words then?


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    #356
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,828 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    markodaly wrote: »
    Funny, Savita Halappanavar was also an accidental victim, where doctors made mistakes.
    Were you hiding these words then?

    I wouldn't castigate any person who made a genuine mistake. Doctors are put under huge pressure.


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    #357
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    recedite wrote: »
    Maybe they should.

    People get on the witness stand and swear an oath. They then tell lies.

    Let your yes be yes and no be no.


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    #358
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Discodog wrote: »
    I wouldn't castigate any person who made a genuine mistake. Doctors are put under huge pressure.
    How magnanimous of you to be so forgiving in a situation where another family seem to think they've been injured.

    I wonder if you'd be so forgiving if you were harmed by medical negligence or, in fact, harmed by anyone who was 'under huge pressure'.


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    #359
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    How magnanimous of you to be so forgiving in a situation where another family seem to think they've been injured.

    I wonder if you'd be so forgiving if you were harmed by medical negligence or, in fact, harmed by anyone who was 'under huge pressure'.

    Were they injured?

    Did the doctor recommend abortion? If so they should be struck off.


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    #360
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    markodaly wrote: »
    The report will be interesting to see if doctors pressured the parents into making a quick decision on this or not.

    The parents will say they absolutely believed there was no hope. The doctors will say the parents arrived at that belief through their (parents)inability to understand what was being said to them. Both are possibly true (although could be ass covering statements too). Meanwhile a wanted healthy baby was aborted and is no more. Can't bring baby back. All that can be done is lessons must be learnt so this can never happen again.


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    #361
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Discodog wrote: »
    I wouldn't castigate any person who made a genuine mistake. Doctors are put under huge pressure.

    Ah, look I would agree with you there, but again, where was this mantra when Savita died?
    The rhetoric at the time was that she was murdered and daft stuff like that.


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