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Is alcoholism a disease?

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Comments

  • #52
    Jon Stark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Jon Stark


    Custardpi wrote: »
    Read the article I linked to a couple of pages back. A bit long but well worth a look. Challenges the narrative of alcoholics being best advised to swear off drink completely. Finnish research indicates that many problem drinkers (though by no means all) actually do better if they restrict their drinking rather than cut it out totally. Drugs like Naltrexone also seem to be very good at managing one's cravings when used as part of an overall treatment plan.

    Most alcoholics will not have the discipline to "downgrade" their drinking. It's an all or nothing type situation and for anyone who has been able to rework their drinking habits to moderate, I would argue they weren't alcoholics in the first place. Moreso problem drinkers.


  • #53
    Darpa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 161 ✭✭Darpa


    It's not a disease its an addiction.
    But a lot of people don't seem to understand what an addiction means and entails.


  • #54
    Custardpi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Custardpi


    Jon Stark wrote: »
    Most alcoholics will not have the discipline to "downgrade" their drinking. It's an all or nothing type situation and for anyone who has been able to rework their drinking habits to moderate, I would argue they weren't alcoholics in the first place. Moreso problem drinkers.

    That's the standard narrative promoted by AA, which if you read the article appears to be on pretty dodgy ground scientifically. Most of those involved in AA counselling have little to no medical/scientific background. Actual research is showing that the view of alcoholism as being "all or nothing" is not merely unhelpful in many cases but actually harmful to a person's chance of recovery. You should really read the article as it explains this in far better detail than I could. Not claiming it as gospel or anything but no harm in challenging your viewpoint once in a while.


  • #55
    the evasion_kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,740 ✭✭✭the evasion_kid


    Jon Stark wrote: »
    Aye, I know lads and women sober for 5, 6, 7...years and they'll tell you that it's something that never leaves them.

    The temptation is something that will always hang over them and it's something they just have to learn to live with.

    A life long disease that they live with in other words.

    There relationship with alcohol has changed drastically,chemically,mentally,phsyically your body is altered to it,your drinking days are over,you could keep on going but I'd think you'd be better of dead.you always hear of a certain percentage who return to moderate drinking but I'd seriously question if they were an alcoholic to begin with and didn't just have a bit of a drink problem.


  • #56
    Jon Stark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Jon Stark


    Custardpi wrote: »
    That's the standard narrative promoted by AA, which if you read the article appears to be on pretty dodgy ground scientifically. Most of those involved in AA counselling have little to no medical/scientific background. Actual research is showing that the view of alcoholism as being "all or nothing" is not merely unhelpful in many cases but actually harmful to a person's chance of recovery. You should really read the article as it explains this in far better detail than I could. Not claiming it as gospel or anything but no harm in challenging your viewpoint once in a while.

    I'm not using AA as a narrative, not familiar with it tbh.

    But I've worked in a rehab centre based on a holistic approach. If you saw the state of people who came into us for a medical detox, you'd see why alcohol had to be completely cut from their lifestyle. They wouldn't be able to refine their drinking like you and I might be able to.


  • #57
    Custardpi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Custardpi


    Jon Stark wrote: »
    I'm not using AA as a narrative, not familiar with it tbh.

    But I've worked in a rehab centre based on a holistic approach. If you saw the state of people who came into us for a medical detox, you'd see why alcohol had to be completely cut from their lifestyle. They wouldn't be able to refine their drinking like you and I might be able to.

    The influence of the AA view of alcoholism has greatly influenced treatment beyond AA meetings. It's become part of popular culture to view alcoholism as something which people are "helpless" to end themselves. Have a read of the article & see what you make of it when placed in the context of your own experience.


  • #58
    lickme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭lickme


    Some People have addictive personalities whether its gambling or alcohol. There brains or somewhat wired differently to others that make them addicted to something. Gambling addiction and alcohol addiction is an illness or disease if you look at the research. Addictive personalities

    People here will probably say depression isn't an illness/disease either. IBS sufferers have nothing to show under the microscope and is classed as an illness/disease.


  • #59
    lazeedaisy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,337 ✭✭✭lazeedaisy


    Custardpi wrote: »
    Very interesting article in The Atlantic from a few months back about alcoholism, Alcoholics Anonymous & competing narratives around problem drinking. It challenges the one-size-fits-all approach to the issue, noting that studies have shown that most heavy drinkers can actually become moderate drinkers with doctor's help, rather than being completely powerless over it. The "incurable disease" theory applied by AA does appear to be pretty shaky scientifically, as are many of the methods promoted by them to help sufferers. The writer travels to Finland where they're trying out a range of different treatments, including drug based ones which diminish a person's desire for alcohol. Apparently most patients can have alcohol after the treatment there, without the uncontrollable urge to binge which they had before. There's some people it doesn't work for of course, who need to stay 100% away from drink for life, but for most aiming for a respectful relationship with alcohol rather than a complete break seems to work better in terms of avoiding relapses into booze oblivion. I'm not medically qualified to say that this is definitely a better approach than the mainstream AA one but it's a very interesting article nonetheless & I'd urge everyone to read it, even if it is quite long.

    A very interesting article, thanks for that


  • #60
    Darpa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 161 ✭✭Darpa


    lickme wrote: »
    Some People have addictive personalities whether its gambling or alcohol. There brains or somewhat wired differently to others that make them addicted to something. Gambling addiction and alcohol addiction is an illness or disease if you look at the research. Addictive personalities

    People here will probably say depression isn't an illness/disease either. IBS sufferers have nothing to show under the microscope and is classed as an illness/disease.

    Anyone can get addicted to powerful substances such as alcohol, you just happened to not have met your substance and the correct level of intake to hit trigger level. Pray you never do.


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  • #61
    Jon Stark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Jon Stark


    Custardpi wrote: »
    The influence of the AA view of alcoholism has greatly influenced treatment beyond AA meetings. It's become part of popular culture to view alcoholism as something which people are "helpless" to end themselves. Have a read of the article & see what you make of it when placed in the context of your own experience.

    I've had a look and can safely say that what he describes about AA doesn't match my own experience in rehab.

    For one, there's no higher power. Secondly, we'd view the idea of shaming someone for suffering a relapse and for not "giving" themselves to the programme as highly unethical and irresponsible. We actually empowered the individual by telling them to do it for themselves and no one else.

    Most importantly, any rehab or detox centre worth its salt is run from top to bottom by professionally trained people barring volunteers.

    So I think you are a little wide of the mark by suggesting AA's influence reaches beyond its own corridors.

    The article did raise one good point about success rates but it's hard to define success. Is completing the programme only to relapse 2 days later deemed as success? Is it staying sober for an x amount of years? At what point is something deemed a failure?


  • #62
    Dorethy
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭Dorethy


    Many a year ago I lived in Rathmines. At the 15 bus stop at the swimming pool there used to be a bearded man who seemed to reside at the bus shelter.

    As a fresh faced young one, I was frequently red faced with his habit of hailing me and trying to initiate conversation.

    Then he seemed to disappear for a few months. I saw him again around the same area and this time he was pushing a council trash cart and he kept himself to himself.

    I've often thought of this man and how he turned his life around. I'd bet you any money he didn't do this by embracing moderate drinking.


  • #63
    mocha please!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭mocha please!


    Jon Stark wrote: »
    I've had a look and can safely say that what he describes about AA doesn't match my own experience in rehab.

    For one, there's no higher power. Secondly, we'd view the idea of shaming someone for suffering a relapse and for not "giving" themselves to the programme as highly unethical and irresponsible. We actually empowered the individual by telling them to do it for themselves and no one else.

    Most importantly, any rehab or detox centre worth its salt is run from top to bottom by professionally trained people barring volunteers.

    So I think you are a little wide of the mark by suggesting AA's influence reaches beyond its own corridors.

    Just to mention, there are alternatives to AA ... for example, Lifering is a secular group which focuses on the present and future, rather than dwelling on the past. They hold meetings in different parts of the country, it could be an alternative option for those who are wary of the "higher power" aspect of AA.


  • #64
    Custardpi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Custardpi


    Jon Stark wrote: »

    The article did raise one good point about success rates but it's hard to define success. Is completing the programme only to relapse 2 days later deemed as success? Is it staying sober for an x amount of years? At what point is something deemed a failure?

    That's a good point, there's obviously going to be different opinions on what success or failure means in this context. How would you define a "relapse"? If it means having any alcohol whatsoever rather than returning to out of control drinking then we're still in the realm of the "all or nothing" school, which when applied wholesale to everyone who struggles with alcohol may be counter productive in many cases.


  • #65
    Jon Stark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Jon Stark


    Custardpi wrote: »
    That's a good point, there's obviously going to be different opinions on what success or failure means in this context. How would you define a "relapse"? If it means having any alcohol whatsoever rather than returning to out of control drinking then we're still in the realm of the "all or nothing" school, which when applied wholesale to everyone who struggles with alcohol may be counter productive in many cases.

    We used the term "slip" for the initial intake of alcohol. It's not the end of the world and we'd always encourage that thinking in our patients. That way they wouldn't be afraid to reach out after the slip.

    Relapse to me would be a full blown collapse into old habits and cutting off our support networks.


  • #66
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,357 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    If alcoholism is a disease, then it is one that has a clear and 100% effective cure. Wouldn't it br great if all diseases were like that. All addictions are a result of the inability or unwillingness of the 'victim' to change their behaviour.
    It must be galling for people who have genuinely incurable or terminal illnesses to hear addicts looking for sympathy for themselves instead of changing their behaviour and thereby 'curing' themselves.


    There is an interesting british documentary on YouTube called Rain in my Heart. The people featured are end stage alcoholics, they are going to die if they don't stop.

    Seeing the way they drink is harrowing. They simply don't have the option to just 'change' without serious help.


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  • #67
    captainfrost
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭captainfrost


    If it is a disease, then it surely will be a genetic one. Then my dad would definately have ruined my life.
    So I do not think it is a disease.


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