Divorce

mariaalice · 12-07-2017 3:11pm #1

Divorce in modern Irish society.

Thinking about this after having a conversation with a 35 years old man who is normally very reticent but after a few drink was enplaning to me that he was only aiming to get married once as an explication of why he was only moving in with his girlfriend after 4 years together.

He is very cautious because he is the child of separated parents.

Divorce rates in Ireland are low by international standards, people are getting married older and usually have spent a significant amount of time living together or in a relationship before they married or have children.

So how come there is still divorce despite the fact that people may have spent 8/9 or 10 years together before they marry surely if they have spent 10 years together before they marry they are sure its for life.

Gloomtastic! · 12-07-2017 3:13pm

Cos boys will be boys and girls will be bitches!

ohnonotgmail · 12-07-2017 3:14pm

Even after 10+ years together you cant guarantee that you really know somebody. i speak from experience.

Winterlong · 12-07-2017 3:15pm

People change. What you like and who you are at 30 can be very different to when you are 50.

Dr Crayfish · 12-07-2017 3:16pm

I'm thinking of 4 of my male friends that got married just because their girlfriends wanted a wedding etc, they're all separated now. Marriage isn't really needed nowadays in modern society. We have lots of choice and can be secure on our own. The reality of marriage is pretty bleak, spending the same day with someone for the rest of your life. At least that's how I feel about it. Women needed a good working husband back in the day to look after them, but they can look after themselves nowadays for the most part.
I don't get it at all really, the marriage thing, it doesn't seem to work for most people from what I can see.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-07-2017 3:17pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Divorce in modern Irish society.

Thinking about this after having a conversation with a 35 years old man who is normally very reticent but after a few drink was enplaning to me that he was only aiming to get married once as an explication of why he was only moving in with his girlfriend after 4 years together.

He is very cautious because he is the child of separated parents.

Divorce rates in Ireland are low by international standards, people are getting married older and usually have spent a significant amount of time living together or in a relationship before they married or have children.

So how come there is still divorce despite the fact that people may have spent 8/9 or 10 years together before they marry surely if they have spent 10 years together before they marry they are sure its for life.

Mainly because people don;t listen to the Church any more.

Time is no indicator of a good marriage - my parents got divorced after 26 years. It's also needed as a legal status because you're talking about the dissolution of a legally binding agreement.

ohnonotgmail · 12-07-2017 3:22pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Mainly because people don;t listen to the Church any more.

Time is no indicator of a good marriage - my parents got divorced after 26 years. It's also needed as a legal status because you're talking about the dissolution of a legally binding agreement.

you mean they aren't forced to stay married even if they are miserable? i can only think this is a good thing.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-07-2017 3:23pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you mean they aren't forced to stay married even if they are miserable? i can only think this is a good thing.

Oh, absolutely.

Syphonax · 12-07-2017 3:27pm

I think the real question here is why does the man always get screwed over after a divorce. A close relation of mine has been with partners who were divorced from previous relationships and the story for both is the same. There are kids involvde and whenever the mother feel like she needs time to herself she literally dumps them on the father with little or no notification, the fathers dont/cant refuse this as they feel it would mean te mother will turn the child against the father if they do. Theres also maintenance the father must pay the mpother directly, wheter that money goes on the child is anyones guess but one of the mothers is an alcoholic and the father repeatable has to by the child clothes school books on top of the maintenance. The propert they had bought is now in the mothers name as part of the selement that was reached....the father is paying the mortgage for this.

mariaalice · 12-07-2017 3:27pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Mainly because people don;t listen to the Church any more.

Time is no indicator of a good marriage - my parents got divorced after 26 years. It's also needed as a legal status because you're talking about the dissolution of a legally binding agreement.

My point is people who get married after say 10 years together BEFORE they marry are in their mid to late 30ths when they get married. They have had a life, a career and maybe travelled plus know themselves and their partner well and it still doesn't mean they won't end up divorcing.

This is not about the church, alcoholic parents etc I am talking about the average couple.

ohnonotgmail · 12-07-2017 3:28pm

Anybody else got the Tammy Wynette song running through their heads?

ohnonotgmail · 12-07-2017 3:30pm

mariaalice wrote: »

My point is people who get married after say 10 years together BEFORE they marry are in their mid to late 30ths when they get married. They have had a life, a career and maybe travelled plus know themselves and their partner well and it still doesn't mean they won't end up divorcing.

you're right, it doesnt. People change continually throughout their life. sometimes that means that two people change in incompatible ways.

silverharp · 12-07-2017 3:35pm

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I'm thinking of 4 of my male friends that got married just because their girlfriends wanted a wedding etc, they're all separated now. Marriage isn't really needed nowadays in modern society. We have lots of choice and can be secure on our own. The reality of marriage is pretty bleak, spending the same day with someone for the rest of your life. At least that's how I feel about it. Women needed a good working husband back in the day to look after them, but they can look after themselves nowadays for the most part.
I don't get it at all really, the marriage thing, it doesn't seem to work for most people from what I can see.

the majority of people still want kids and a family and its easier to raise a family with 2 parents.

Pherekydes · 12-07-2017 3:35pm

Syphonax wrote: »

I think the real question here is why does the man always get screwed over after a divorce.

I didn't. Generalisations are always wrong.

See what I did there? :pac:

When I got married the first time divorce didn't exist in this country. We were finally divorced after 16 years apart. But only because she looked for it and paid for it. I didn't care. I got the house, too.

Widdershins · 12-07-2017 3:37pm

Why people keep remarrying is the one that confuses me. I can understand a second marriage. I've a friend who seems to automatically propose to all of his girlfriends. Marriage isn't taken seriously enough by people like that.

Also the bit about the man being cautious because his parents separated. I have an ex, child of divorced parents who still badmouth each other, who was quite badminded and suspicious toward me. He was always telling those jokes about the man who chose a life of fishing, road trips and beer whenever, over his girlfriend. The reality that I don't have a problem with fishing, road trips or beer never seemed to cross his poor messed up mind. It was really bitter and twisted and sad. It's tragic how the parents relationship breakdown affects the child. In some cases.

seamus · 12-07-2017 3:38pm

Because time changes things. People change over time, and unless they talk openly about their changing mindset they can end up drifting away from one another.

I know of one couple who went out from their mid-teens and got married in their early 30s only to break up a year later. His Dad died and he had an existential crisis, lost the plot and left her to re-evaluate his life.

Children are also a massive upheaval. A couple who are going out for ten years are fairly set; they know each other well, they have their little routines and rituals.
Then they decide to have kids, but consider marriage an essential precursor. They get married, have kids and then absolutely everything changes. The focus of the relationship changes entirely, all of their routines and rituals obliterated, and the amount of time they share together drops dramatically.

Divorce rates in Ireland are low because there's still a social stigma about divorce among the older generations and because of the 4 year waiting period. A lot of people split up and just don't bother getting a formal divorce.

Fantomas9mm · 12-07-2017 3:41pm

Am I correct in thinking that pre nuptial agreements have no standing in Irish law.

Dr Crayfish · 12-07-2017 3:41pm

silverharp wrote: »

the majority of people still want kids and a family and its easier to raise a family with 2 parents.

You still don't need to get married though

SEPT 23 1989 · 12-07-2017 3:44pm

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

You still don't need to get married though

From experience it makes the whole thing a bit more stable

mariaalice · 12-07-2017 3:52pm

I know a middle ages woman who is happy married but was very put out that her husband won't do any of the things he said he would do one the children grew up and they had money ( mostly travailing ) she has kind of resolved it by doing things by herself and with a group.

silverharp · 12-07-2017 3:53pm

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

You still don't need to get married though

no but its a contract at the end of the day , Would like to see it amended though so people could write their own contracts.

Pherekydes · 12-07-2017 4:08pm

mariaalice wrote: »

I know a middle ages woman who is happy married but was very put out that her husband won't do any of the things he said he would do one the children grew up and they had money ( mostly travailing ) she has kind of resolved it by doing things by herself and with a group.

Sounds like my wife. :pac:

Grandeeod · 12-07-2017 4:28pm

I think marriage should be a set 10 year contract that expires after that period or can be renewed.:D

Widdershins · 12-07-2017 4:30pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

I think marriage should be a set 10 year contract that expires after that period or can be renewed.:D

Pagan Handfastings are a bit like that. 1 Year. I think.

PandaPoo · 12-07-2017 4:39pm

I married my husband after knowing him for 13 months.

My friend married her husband the same year we got marroed? After being together for 10 years, living together for 8 years and travelling the world together. They were married for 3 months and split up.

The funny thing is she was really snarky with me when we announced our engagement. She openly scoffed at us and told me it wouldn't last, whereas they were obviously together for life.

I'm very happily married 3 years and she's separated 3 years. You just don't know.

B0jangles · 12-07-2017 4:53pm

PandaPoo wrote: »

I married my husband after knowing him for 13 months.

My friend married her husband the same year we got marroed? After being together for 10 years, living together for 8 years and travelling the world together. They were married for 3 months and split up.

The funny thing is she was really snarky with me when we announced our engagement. She openly scoffed at us and told me it wouldn't last, whereas they were obviously together for life.

I'm very happily married 3 years and she's separated 3 years. You just don't know.

Admit it, you're only staying married to spite her, aren't you?

:pac:

suicide_circus · 12-07-2017 4:55pm

PandaPoo wrote: »

I married my husband after knowing him for 13 months.

My friend married her husband the same year we got marroed? After being together for 10 years, living together for 8 years and travelling the world together. They were married for 3 months and split up.

The funny thing is she was really snarky with me when we announced our engagement. She openly scoffed at us and told me it wouldn't last, whereas they were obviously together for life.

I'm very happily married 3 years and she's separated 3 years. You just don't know.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSgYySws1RI3oPFYmKhjNJ2OfE67F1nlvfeiRxqMPngM7CLzKqo2Q

brevity · 12-07-2017 4:57pm

I wonder is marriage counseling something that is frowned upon here?

Do many people take advantage of it?

PandaPoo · 12-07-2017 4:58pm

B0jangles wrote: »

Admit it, you're only staying married to spite her, aren't you?

:pac:

Crosses my mind when we're fighting

gotta prove her wrong.

Meeoow · 12-07-2017 5:03pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Anybody else got the Tammy Wynette song running through their heads?

I do now, thanks!

Dial Hard · 12-07-2017 5:09pm

Syphonax wrote:

I think the real question here is why does the man always get screwed over after a divorce.

I was wondering how long it would take for this chestnut to come up. When my ex and I split up I left him with the house, the contents, the dogs and his extremely lucrative army pension. And I wasn't even the one who ended the marriage.

We're not all gold-digging bitches intent on ruining your lives, you know.

brevity wrote:

I wonder is marriage counseling something that is frowned upon here?

Absolutely not. I don't know anyone who went through a major partnership break-up (not necessarily even married) without trying it. The issue is that a lot for a long time pretty much the only services available were ones with a Catholic ethos and are more concerned with preserving the marriage than actually trying to help the couple with their issues. That is changing though.

mariaalice · 12-07-2017 5:09pm

brevity wrote: »

I wonder is marriage counseling something that is frowned upon here?

Do many people take advantage of it?

That is an interesting question, say an individual is married to someone a long time and by and large its alright but something like the constant negativity of their partner is wearing them down the partner has become more an more negative over the years. In that or similar situation counselling could work provided they want it to work.

For serious fundamental problems with the relationship it doesn't work, contempt is a killer in a relationship and if its got to the stage of despising each other not a chance of fixing things. Don't get how couples end up despising each other.

TheDoc · 12-07-2017 5:11pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Divorce in modern Irish society.

Thinking about this after having a conversation with a 35 years old man who is normally very reticent but after a few drink was enplaning to me that he was only aiming to get married once as an explication of why he was only moving in with his girlfriend after 4 years together.

He is very cautious because he is the child of separated parents.

Divorce rates in Ireland are low by international standards, people are getting married older and usually have spent a significant amount of time living together or in a relationship before they married or have children.

So how come there is still divorce despite the fact that people may have spent 8/9 or 10 years together before they marry surely if they have spent 10 years together before they marry they are sure its for life.

An observation I would make is that more then ever I'm seeing and hearing about couples splitting, couples together a long time with children. It literally seems rampant where every second conversation is "did you hear X and Y split".

It's not going through divorce, but just breakdowns and seperations. Potentially divorce proceeding down the road or attempts to resolve.

Not sure what is causing it, but does seem it's on the noticeable rise anyway.

Widdershins · 12-07-2017 5:12pm

mariaalice wrote: »

That is an interesting question, an individual is married to someone a long time and by and large its alright but something like the constant negativity of their partner is wearing them down the partner has become more an more negative over the years. In that or similar situation counselling could work provided they want it to work.

For serious fundamental problems with the relationship it doesn't work, contempt is a killer in a relationship and if its got to the stage of despising each other not a chance of fixing things. Don't get how couples end up despising each other.

The partner's probably too negative to go to counselling :eek:

mariaalice · 12-07-2017 5:15pm

Widdershins wrote: »

The partner's probably too negative to go to counselling :eek:

I was just trying to point out issues that could be solved by counselling. I am very happily married in a second marriage nothing on earth could have fixed my first marriage.

Fr_Dougal · 12-07-2017 5:18pm

Divorce rates might be low, but what are the stats for separation?

seamus · 12-07-2017 5:21pm

brevity wrote: »

I wonder is marriage counseling something that is frowned upon here?

From a social point of view, no. But from the personal point of view, Irish people would be very slow to think about using counselling or psychiatric services.
Put the head down and deal with it yourself is the Irish way of handling problems, you don't drag a stranger in, sure what good will talking do?

Purely anecdotal of course, maybe people do use these services, they just don't talk about it.

Widdershins · 12-07-2017 5:23pm

mariaalice wrote: »

I was just trying to point out issues that could be solved by counselling. I am very happily married in a second marriage nothing on earth could have fixed my first marriage.

I know, just joking.

seamus · 12-07-2017 5:32pm

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Divorce rates might be low, but what are the stats for separation?

It can be hard to say because separations become divorces after the 4-year waiting period.

Separations increased by only 10% between 2006 and 2016, but divorces jumped by 74%.

That looks crazy, but you have to bare in mind that all of those divorces have to have been separated for four years before hand. So really the number of new separations made a huge jump, whereas the new divorces are just continuations of already existing separations.

So it makes no real sense to take divorce & separation as two separate numbers, but rather as one cohort.

Even if we do that, we're still well down the league tables; about a third of the US rate and a quarter of the Russians'. The EU average is 2 divorces per 1,000, and we're about 1.2 per 1,000 when you take divorce and separation together.

Dial Hard · 12-07-2017 5:35pm

seamus wrote:

It can be hard to say because separations become divorces after the 4-year waiting period.

No they don't, unless the couple specifically apply for a divorce. It's not automatic. Loads of couples separate but never divorce.

LadyMacBeth_ · 12-07-2017 9:18pm

I think people can change, can want different things over time or have a life changing experience that causes them to drift apart. I'm married three years now but we both went into it knowing that it may not last forever, we're realists. In fact we split up for five months but got back together and we're stronger than ever. Can I say how I will feel about her in ten years though? No, I can't. I can say that I love her and that I hope I feel the same in ten years but nobody knows what the future holds.

MistyCheese · 12-07-2017 9:23pm

It's mad, for a lot of people getting married puts a different slant on things. One couple I know of were together 9 years, had two children together then got married and split up after 4 months.

greencap · 12-07-2017 9:27pm

Marriage is normally the pre-occupation of two groups.
Women, and the government.

They're both very intent on getting a man to marry.
One will use every form of emotional blackmail to make you do it, and the other will bribe you through tax relief to do it.

jimmycrackcorm · 12-07-2017 9:32pm

Divorce is irrelevant once you have kids and a negative equity home...

DeanAustin · 12-07-2017 9:36pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Anybody else got the Tammy Wynette song running through their heads?

Stand By Your Man?

seamus · 13-07-2017 9:47am

Dial Hard wrote: »

No they don't, unless the couple specifically apply for a divorce. It's not automatic. Loads of couples separate but never divorce.

Sorry, you're right. What I meant is that all (or almost all) divorcees would have been classed as "separated" in the four years previous.
That said, "divorced" also includes people living in Ireland who got divorced overseas, but I expect the numbers there are low.

gramar · 13-07-2017 10:08am

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Divorce rates might be low, but what are the stats for separation?

Much higher. To apply for a divorce you have to prove you've lived apart for 4 or the 5 preceeding years and then the time involved for the case to go through the system and be heard which could another few years.

Divorce

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