Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V

molloyjh · 20-09-2014 9:49am

With all this talk about out half let me ask one question. Do people think Jack Carty is a better out half than Gopperth or Mads? Connacht didn't seem to have the same issues there that we did so does that answer the question?

former legend · 20-09-2014 9:56am

molloyjh wrote: »

With all this talk about out half let me ask one question. Do people think Jack Carty is a better out half than Gopperth or Mads? Connacht didn't seem to have the same issues there that we did so does that answer the question?

No.

corny · 20-09-2014 10:01am

former legend wrote: »

Needs to get Madigan to understand that he has all the ability to be a good out half but must learn to judge the play... Don't run every ball, not every pass has to be flat and right on the gain line, sometimes it's ok to sit deep and kick for position.

If Madigan can do that, he'll improve vastly.

Sounds easy enough but i'm sure Madigan has been hearing that message since he was a young lad. He's 25 now.

Obviously he can still improve but will he ever develop the feel for the game to the level needed by Leinster in the EC...i doubt it.

Buer · 20-09-2014 10:19am

Only saw about 15 minutes of last night's match due to being at a wedding but how on earth we didn't put any points on the board in the second half is beyond me. We made huge yards and were getting into opposition territory repeatedly but couldn't do anything before making a balls of it.

MOC has a lot of questions to answer. Complete lack of intelligence out there in the backs in the closing stages. Someone just needed to settle things down and put a focus on three points instead of trying to move the ball aimlessly.

I'm 100% unsurprised by the result though. We don't perform well in Galway, end of story. Connacht up their intensity for the visit every time and the players and fans look forward to the fixture without fail. It was much more in hope than in expectation that I watched. I was watching with a mix of people from the 4 provinces and at the whistle they were disbelieving that Connacht had beaten Leinster. They've beaten us there now in 2010, 2012 and 2014. I wonder when people will stop being surprised?

salmocab · 20-09-2014 10:31am

MOC is a joke, he has taken some of the most skillful players to ever play in this country and turned them into average pros, the skill levels in the backs has gone to sh1t and he seems to have a game plan that he wants not what suits the players. A poor coach and the sooner he leaves the better.

Buer · 20-09-2014 10:33am

salmocab wrote: »

MOC is a joke, he has taken some of the most skillful players to ever play in this country and turned them into average pros, the skill levels in the backs has gone to sh1t and he seems to have a game plan that he wants not what suits the players. A poor coach and the sooner he leaves the better.

Yeah, see there's rationale debate about MOC's shortcomings and then there's this. It's about as useful as tits on a nun.

He's not going anywhere. A poor coach isn't as successful as he has been in his career. He has major issues he needs to address. Whether it's down to personnel or tactics, it stops with him. Hopefully they're ironed out because we've shown we can tear teams apart playing under his systems. Consistency and an ability to change things when they're not working seem to be a real problem.

molloyjh · 20-09-2014 10:33am

former legend wrote: »

No.

So then why are we suffering at 10 more than Connacht?

Buer wrote: »

Only saw about 15 minutes of last night's match due to being at a wedding but how on earth we didn't put any points on the board in the second half is beyond me. We made huge yards and were getting into opposition territory repeatedly but couldn't do anything before making a balls of it.

MOC has a lot of questions to answer. Complete lack of intelligence out there in the backs in the closing stages. Someone just needed to settle things down and put a focus on three points instead of trying to move the ball aimlessly.

I'm 100% unsurprised by the result though. We don't perform well in Galway, end of story. Connacht up their intensity for the visit every time and the players and fans look forward to the fixture without fail. It was much more in hope than in expectation that I watched. I was watching with a mix of people from the 4 provinces and at the whistle they were disbelieving that Connacht had beaten Leinster. They've beaten us there now in 2010, 2012 and 2014. I wonder when people will stop being surprised?

Buer we were utterly dominant for the entire first half. We had 2 tries ruled out by the TMO. Yet our last score came in the 16th minute. So for 25 minutes we were dominant and couldn't score. Whatever about the second half, we lost it in the first. Connacht went in at half-time still in the game. They cut out the silly penalties they'd been giving away in the first half and we were unable to break them down from there. By the end it looked to me as though some players had abandoned the systems altogether in an attempt to try and make things happen. That's a big worry, but seeing as the systems were getting us nowhere it's probably nothing to be surprised about.

Buer · 20-09-2014 10:37am

molloyjh wrote: »

Buer we were utterly dominant for the entire first half. We had 2 tries ruled out by the TMO. Yet our last score came in the 16th minute. So for 25 minutes we were dominant and couldn't score. Whatever about the second half, we lost it in the first. Connacht went in at half-time still in the game. They cut out the silly penalties they'd been giving away in the first half and we were unable to break them down from there. By the end it looked to me as though some players had abandoned the systems altogether in an attempt to try and make things happen. That's a big worry, but seeing as the systems were getting us nowhere it's probably nothing to be surprised about.

I don't know why we didn't keep going up the middle when we spun it back for the drop goal. We were making yards on every carry. McGrath should have bossed that a bit better and told his pack to keep the foot down.

Real lack of clarity of thought from players in key positions.

If we were hugely more dominant in the first half, that's scary that we couldn't get more on the board. Connacht were scrapping for their lives in the last quarter.

Tox56 · 20-09-2014 10:37am

Hagz wrote: »

Shane Jennings suffered a hamstring injury apparently. That's Murphy, Jennings and Leavy injured. Suppose we'll be seeing a lot more of Dippy.

I really don't know what to think of Dippy, in the first half he was immense but faded in the second and was clearly below the level of Ruddock who was a beast throughout the game. He's had a good start to the season now he has had a run of games but I really don't think he will be getting a contract extension, there's just too many guys ahead of him/look like they have more potential coming through the ranks. If he went to a side where he could start every week he could be excellent and he's only starting at 7 here because 4 opensides are unavailable, surely a situation that is unlikely to repeat itself next season

molloyjh · 20-09-2014 10:42am

Buer wrote: »

Yeah, see there's rationale debate about MOC's shortcomings and then there's this. It's about as useful as tits on a nun.

He's not going anywhere. A poor coach isn't as successful as he has been in his career. He has major issues he needs to address. Whether it's down to personnel or tactics, it stops with him. Hopefully they're ironed out because we've shown we can tear teams apart playing under his systems. Consistency and an ability to change things when they're not working seem to be a real problem.

I'll be honest I'm beginning to wonder if MOC is able to adapt his style to suit the players. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and if you're not able to adjust your approach to suit your tools then that's a failing. It's what I was trying to get at re my question above on the out half issue. If they aren't worse than the likes of Carty then how is it they look so poor with a better pack in front of them and better backs outside them? Is it really them?

I'm not professing to know, but it's a question worth asking. It looked to me like Joe had an idea in his head of how he wanted Leinster to play after Jonny left. Gopperth and Mads have very similar strengths and weaknesses. Now that was dumped on MOC and he wasn't able to bring in the players he wanted, but a good coach should be able to adapt to that unless the players are at a level where they can't be worked with. So which is it here? Are they just not up to it or is MOC not adapting properly. Is it a bad workman and his tools or are his tools not up to the task?

Tox56 · 20-09-2014 10:45am

Buer wrote: »

Connacht were scrapping for their lives in the last quarter.

That's what was happening throughot the game I would say with the *exception* of most of the last quarter, where we lost a lot of structure and direction until the last two minutes when McGrath was on, who really should have been on earlier. It's not even just that I'm a fan of him, it's that our 22 was D'Arcy who came on at 13, so essentially we had no change of halfback until the 78th minute, and the impact that change made was immediate, it didn't even matter that it was McGrath, it was just someone who could lift the pace, and give some structure and direction in a very important position

The first half was actually an impressive/promising performance and we could have easily had 2 or 3 tries (maybe more), in fact if Madigan's try had counted i think it would have been game over, but that lack of precision in the 22 was unforgiveable. Connacht had one chance of a try in the entire game, and they took it

molloyjh · 20-09-2014 10:53am

Buer wrote: »

I don't know why we didn't keep going up the middle when we spun it back for the drop goal. We were making yards on every carry. McGrath should have bossed that a bit better and told his pack to keep the foot down.

Real lack of clarity of thought from players in key positions.

If we were hugely more dominant in the first half, that's scary that we couldn't get more on the board. Connacht were scrapping for their lives in the last quarter.

Yeah, it's odd. You'll see on the match thread I wasn't worried at half time. I felt if we kept doing what we were doing the scores would come. It was misfortune and very slight inaccuracy that prevented us getting the tries in the first half. But almost as soon as the second half kicked off we looked utterly aimless. And within 5 mins I was saying we needed a score or we'd be in trouble. You simply can't go 25-30 minutes in a game without scoring. And the longer it went on the more Connacht grew in confidence. And the more that happened the more at sea we looked. It was an utterly depressing 40 minutes of rugby.

I've no idea what was said at half time by who but we were a different side in the second half. And that happened a few times last season too. There were no ideas how to go about breaking down Connacht or creating any space. Where we had been dominant in the contact areas in the first half we were suddenly sloppy and inaccurate in the second.

Had we gotten the scores in the first half we might have clung on and Connacht may not have gotten the injection of confidence. We just seemed to fall apart after the break. That has to be a really big concern.

irishbucsfan · 20-09-2014 10:56am

Leicester's half backs were clueless looking under MOC a lot of the time. But whether that was down to Youngs/Flood or just a failing to communicate how the game should be controlled I don't know. I haven't seen yesterday's game yet.

molloyjh · 20-09-2014 11:02am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Leicester's half backs were clueless looking under MOC a lot of the time. But whether that was down to Youngs/Flood or just a failing to communicate how the game should be controlled I don't know. I haven't seen yesterday's game yet.

There's a part of me that would love to hear your feedback on the game. You'd have seen more of Leicester than most/all of us while MOC was there so it's be interesting to hear your take on it.

The other part of me wants to tell you not to put yourself through it. I was in a stinker of a humour yesterday evening because of that second half, it was that frustrating.

former legend · 20-09-2014 11:47am

molloyjh wrote: »

So then why are we suffering at 10 more than Connacht?

Are we? Did Carty really control the game or do anything of great note?

molloyjh · 20-09-2014 11:53am

former legend wrote: »

Are we? Did Carty really control the game or do anything of great note?

You're asking me if Carty excelled. That's not the question I'm asking. See my earlier response to Buer for what I'm trying to get at.

shuffol · 20-09-2014 11:54am

.ak wrote: »

I still think madigan's future at Leinster is at 12. It won't happen over night. Fwiw he held his shape well last night, but he had to deal with muck ball.

I think there's an element of a flat track bully with Madigan, can be devastating behind a dominant pack but when he's forced to make a decision he can look a bit predictable. He'll make a decent 12 but like at 10 I think there'll be better players who'll ease him out.

On another topic who would people prefer to have starting at 7 in a HEC game. Ryan or Murphy?

Buer · 20-09-2014 11:57am

Jennings!

I'd want Murphy in a straight choice between them, though. He could be a really good 7. Ryan will never be, I think. Too inconsistent. Also, if the stats are accurate, 4 penalties by a single player is way too many and not the first time he has conceded a few penalties.

shuffol · 20-09-2014 12:06pm

Buer wrote: »

Jennings!

I'd want Murphy in a straight choice between them, though. He could be a really good 7. Ryan will never be, I think. Too inconsistent. Also, if the stats are accurate, 4 penalties by a single player is way too many and not the first time he has conceded a few penalties.

The Madigan jack of all trades master of none debate got me thinking of Murphy and whether he could end up falling into the same category. Think Murphys a better player but Ryan is better at traditional openside duties, though it sounds like he'd a poor enough game yesterday

Tox56 · 20-09-2014 12:11pm

shuffol wrote: »

The Madigan jack of all trades master of none debate got me thinking of Murphy and whether he could end up falling into the same category. Think Murphys a better player but Ryan is better at traditional openside duties, though it sounds like he'd a poor enough game yesterday

Ryan had a very good first half, he showed what he is capable of, good work at the breakdown, massive physicality in defence and excellent carries. Faded in the second though.

Honestly I think Leavy at least has the potential to be better than both of them, and in my opinion if things go his way he could end up significantly better than both as an openside. I know we're not supposed to put too much pressure/faith in young unproven players but he really does have it all

Zzippy · 20-09-2014 12:15pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah, it's odd. You'll see on the match thread I wasn't worried at half time. I felt if we kept doing what we were doing the scores would come. It was misfortune and very slight inaccuracy that prevented us getting the tries in the first half. But almost as soon as the second half kicked off we looked utterly aimless. And within 5 mins I was saying we needed a score or we'd be in trouble. You simply can't go 25-30 minutes in a game without scoring. And the longer it went on the more Connacht grew in confidence. And the more that happened the more at sea we looked. It was an utterly depressing 40 minutes of rugby.

I've no idea what was said at half time by who but we were a different side in the second half. And that happened a few times last season too. There were no ideas how to go about breaking down Connacht or creating any space. Where we had been dominant in the contact areas in the first half we were suddenly sloppy and inaccurate in the second.

Had we gotten the scores in the first half we might have clung on and Connacht may not have gotten the injection of confidence. We just seemed to fall apart after the break. That has to be a really big concern.

I'm not sure if it came across on tv but the wind was quite strong, straight down the pitch, and Connacht had it with them in the second half. When we went in just 6 points down I was quite confident...

Zzippy · 20-09-2014 12:16pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah, it's odd. You'll see on the match thread I wasn't worried at half time. I felt if we kept doing what we were doing the scores would come. It was misfortune and very slight inaccuracy that prevented us getting the tries in the first half. But almost as soon as the second half kicked off we looked utterly aimless. And within 5 mins I was saying we needed a score or we'd be in trouble. You simply can't go 25-30 minutes in a game without scoring. And the longer it went on the more Connacht grew in confidence. And the more that happened the more at sea we looked. It was an utterly depressing 40 minutes of rugby.

I've no idea what was said at half time by who but we were a different side in the second half. And that happened a few times last season too. There were no ideas how to go about breaking down Connacht or creating any space. Where we had been dominant in the contact areas in the first half we were suddenly sloppy and inaccurate in the second.

Had we gotten the scores in the first half we might have clung on and Connacht may not have gotten the injection of confidence. We just seemed to fall apart after the break. That has to be a really big concern.

I'm not sure if it came across on tv but the wind was quite strong, straight down the pitch, and Connacht had it with them in the second half. When we went in just 6 points down I was quite confident...

Tox56 · 20-09-2014 12:19pm

Zzippy wrote: »

I'm not sure if it came across on tv but the wind was quite strong, straight down the pitch, and Connacht had it with them in the second half. When we went in just 6 points down I was quite confident...

We didnt really use the wind in the first half though, it was the attacking structures that were actually very encouraging in the first half fell apart at the start of the second half. It wasn't that we had a shortage of ball either, its actually remarkable and extremely disappointing how we completely lost that direction

Under Schmidt you could almost count on the performance improving after the break (this happened a lot in the 6N with Ireland too), this is like that working in reverse

Podge_irl · 20-09-2014 12:42pm

Buer wrote: »

Jennings.

Well if we're going down the route of ignoring the parameters of the question surely the answer is SOB!? Hard to see a way Ruddock/SOB/Heaslip isn't our best backrow.

Buer · 20-09-2014 12:46pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Well if we're going down the route of ignoring the parameters of the question surely the answer is SOB!? Hard to see a way Ruddock/SOB/Heaslip isn't our best backrow.

Absolutely. I was answering in the context of it being a selection of a back up openside.

ssaye2 · 20-09-2014 12:47pm

7 pts out of a max 15 it was 8 same time last season need a confidence boost v the blues

Just need to keep putting points on board we are usually strong during international period if we lose get a point at least

Well done connacht fair play to you it makes the league very competitive

Neil3030 · 20-09-2014 2:38pm

On the plus side, I have a really good feeling that if Connacht get into the Heino this season, Irish rugby may never look back.

What that organisation have done over the last few years is nothing short of masterful, and the Irish game will benefit massively.

shuffol · 20-09-2014 3:56pm

While it would be great to see four Irish provinces in the ERC I can't help but feel that the Welsh would throw a strop and start looking towards a league with the English clubs.

20-09-2014 4:06pm

Leinster currently outside of european qualification?

Deano7788 · 20-09-2014 4:09pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Leinster currently outside of european qualification?

They're just inside, no? Connacht, Ospreys, Glasgow and Treviso as the best in each country, then Ulster, Munster and Leinster as the next 3.

Bit premature to be thinking that, isn't it?:pac:

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V

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