BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

monument · 27-12-2018 1:03am

Dravokivich wrote: »

This the same O'Connell st and Smithfield that are within 10 to 20 minutes walk of the Phoenix park?

According to Google Maps, to get to the People’s Gardens inside the main gate of the Phoenix Park, it’s around:

20 minutes from Smithfield
37 minutes from O’Connell Street
35 minutes from mid Parnell Street
45 minutes from Connelly / IFSC

People have to return to, so, you’re talking about 40-90 minutes plus for return trips.

The conditions for pedestrians towards the park is also fairly poor — too much traffic, narrow footpaths, low priority at traffic lights, etc.

trellheim · 31-12-2018 4:30pm

Is BC a real thing or pie in the sky ? I am just dipping in as I have not been following . Is there dates and funding etc ?

GM228 · 31-12-2018 5:18pm

trellheim wrote: »

Is BC a real thing or pie in the sky ? I am just dipping in as I have not been following . Is there dates and funding etc ?

It is very real and yes there are dates and allocated funding (can't remember the dates/figures off hand).

That aside BC also seems to be a political playground where some officials throw out all sort of ill-informed "facts" about it via social media.

fly_agaric · 31-12-2018 6:19pm

trellheim wrote: »

Is BC a real thing or pie in the sky ? I am just dipping in as I have not been following . Is there dates and funding etc ?

I suppose it is as real as anything gets in terms of new infrastructure developments in Ireland (the Childrens Hospital, BertieBowl, McDowell's super-prison, Dublin Metro and the DART interconnector are, or were all "real" to varying degrees including expenditure of large sums of "real" money!).

This gives a timeline for infrastructure aspect of it (least likely bit to go ahead imo - will cost the most extra money and most likely to create political "footballs" and general public hysterics?).

https://busconnects.ie/media/1366/busconnects-timeline-final.pdf

edit: this page gives also gives a timeframe for implementing network changes part of project:

https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/dublin-area-bus-network-redesign/

trellheim · 31-12-2018 7:14pm

thanks folks. the amount of wibble wibble I read about it seems to indicate it has the same status as West on Track, which is kind of why I was asking as I couldnt tell whether it was real or not.

fly_agaric · 31-12-2018 10:07pm

trellheim wrote: »

thanks folks. the amount of wibble wibble I read about it seems to indicate it has the same status as West on Track, which is kind of why I was asking as I couldnt tell whether it was real or not.

Yes, not a transport "anorak" or expert, but it seems a bit more serious than that. There was money allocated in the budget etc.

Found answer to some parliamentary questions on Oireachtas website about it. Answer states "Busconnects" related funding as EUR 750 million over the next 4 years (presume mostly for Dublin Busconnects).

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2018-07-12/630/#pq-answers-627_628_629_630

marno21 · 08-01-2019 4:11am

Irish Times continuing to report on the citywide positives of BusConnects rather than repeatedly reporting issues with individual stakeholders

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/busconnects-if-they-take-the-garden-i-won-t-be-able-to-get-the-car-in-1.3750076

abcabc123123 · 08-01-2019 2:02pm

marno21 wrote: »

Irish Times continuing to report on the citywide positives of BusConnects rather than repeatedly reporting issues with individual stakeholders

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/busconnects-if-they-take-the-garden-i-won-t-be-able-to-get-the-car-in-1.3750076

Saw that. On the same day The Guardian has this: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jan/08/how-an-emerging-african-megacity-cut-commutes-by-two-hours-a-day-dar-es-salaam

Compare & contrast.

Podge_irl · 08-01-2019 3:39pm

It is just after 9.30am at Donnycarney Church on the Malahide Road, north Dublin, where buses and cars whizz by every minute. Some cyclists take to the footpath, as conditions appear safer there than on the roadside.

Who wrote this ****e? Anyone who cycles on the path at that junction is an utter buffoon. Not that I've ever really seen it in the tens of thousands of times I've gone through the junction.

Just by Donnycarney Church is also the point where they already widened the road once so as to have a continuous bus lane and it easily took 15-20 minutes off journeys.

Zebra3 · 08-01-2019 5:24pm

abcabc123123 wrote: »

Saw that. On the same day The Guardian has this: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jan/08/how-an-emerging-african-megacity-cut-commutes-by-two-hours-a-day-dar-es-salaam

Compare & contrast.

Dar is easily the worst city I’ve been in for traffic. Makes Cairo look like a party.

XPS_Zero · 09-01-2019 1:40pm

marno21 wrote: »

Irish Times continuing to report on the citywide positives of BusConnects rather than repeatedly reporting issues with individual stakeholders

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/busconnects-if-they-take-the-garden-i-won-t-be-able-to-get-the-car-in-1.3750076

The quality of journalism in Ireland has always been poor, it's downright hilarious in it's foreign coverage they will often get the UK right but they get the US and it's politics so wrong it's comical.
They're reporting now how scared Donnie the Fascist should be of Nancy Pelosi and the democrats, the democrats in the US are door mats who are scared of their own shadow (with exception of the new bunch coming in), and Pelosi lost the house to the GOP within 2 years last time without getting any progressive priority other than equal pay for men and women passed. They talk about Donnie getting removed by the 25th or impeached without discussing how next to impossible either of those are to actually do.

With BusConnects though they seem to be engaging in a campaign to actually oppose it.

I got one of the journos alone and asked what in Gods name they're doing with this kind of article, that they know full well the network needs a redesign since their papers done many a story on how stupid the network is atm (number and number-a/b/c on opposite sides of the city, the timetables at stops being from the terminus not when it gets to that stop, bad design of routes etc)

There are apparently a few reasons:

1. It's easy to get something in when things are quiet and you've no ideas. There is always someone disadvantaged by every new plan, go to that minority and let them moan, wholla: article

2. They know the public is cynical about infrastructure plans. Ever since the Metro was first announced by FF then a pin stuck in it by FF (I think Cullen announced the metro more than once too) then canceled by FG then revived by FG, and similar with other plans, that the public is very very cynical with bright new infrastructure plans that are announced (witness the yawn with which Project Ireland 2040 was greeted). Espechally now that we have a Taoiseach who, in contrast to his predecessors treats the job as a purely ceremonial position where he pulls curtains back on plaques and cuts ribbons etc not actually doing anything with the power of the job to fix national problems.
It's not that people are opposed to many such plans, they just think they'll never actually happen because Luas and metro and BRT taught them that these plans just keep getting kicked down the road indefinitely. Journos play into that prejudice with these kinda stories. People love to whine rather than be constructive or positive. People love to judge, judging makes us feel superior and right, so they love those articles because they make them go "i told ye! it'll never happen they'll make a balls of it"

I've also noticed that journos in Ireland love being negative, they'll never give positive coverage to any govt plan no matter who's plan it is. Of course the one area where we could use a skeptical attitude, the business section, you don't get it.

hmmm · 09-01-2019 8:08pm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

1. It's easy to get something in when things are quiet and you've no ideas. There is always someone disadvantaged by every new plan, go to that minority and let them moan, wholla: article

Knock on a few doors, find someone who is annoyed, and make the story about them. Takes about 2 hours and you get your words in for the day.

It's the sort of thing you get in provincial newspapers, it shouldn't be in a national newspaper.

Sam Russell · 09-01-2019 8:45pm

hmmm wrote: »

Knock on a few doors, find someone who is annoyed, and make the story about them. Takes about 2 hours and you get your words in for the day.

It's the sort of thing you get in provincial newspapers, it shouldn't be in a national newspaper.

Have you read the Irish Times recently?

Story 1: Guardian

Story 2: Financial Times

Story 3: Reuters

Story 4: AFP

etc etc etc. Rinse and repeat.

Not many are Irish Times. Plus most stories are little more than sound bites.

hmmm · 09-01-2019 9:21pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Not many are Irish Times. Plus most stories are little more than sound bites.

I think for a paper which prides itself on being in many ways the voice of sense in Ireland, it should balance articles like this with more reasoned pieces. It's not the Daily Mail which measures success with clicks and page views, and loves to stir up controversy as a consequence. The media has a responsibility in a democracy.

Bray Head · 09-01-2019 9:25pm

Newspapers often keep stories like this on file to dump when it's quiet, or indeed over the Christmas period too.

Ironically the Dublin Inquirer is a local newspaper, while the Irish Times at least pretends to be a national one.

Despite this the Dublin Inquirer has run the best-informed article on Bus Connects by far!

MJohnston · 09-01-2019 11:22pm

Dublin Inquirer is a great example of local journalism that is actually intelligent and investigative. Ireland lends itself much more to local journalism, much less to national outlets.

XPS_Zero · 10-01-2019 9:30pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Dublin Inquirer is a great example of local journalism that is actually intelligent and investigative. Ireland lends itself much more to local journalism, much less to national outlets.

The IT and Indo and Examiner have three elements:

1. News news you can get on websites the day before, not unique stories they've researched themselves (that is nearly unheard of now and it's why old media is being crushed by online and youtube etc it's why for US politics news TYT and Secular Talk and even the ultra lefty Jimmy Dore carry more weight than CNN and MSNBC for under 35s)

2. Foreign news that I already explained is very very poorly understood

3. Opinion which is never unique or interesting or bringing a new perspective, it's always predictable to a tee what a specific commentator will think on an issue, and rarely does the headline have anything to do with the actual argument they make.

This is why they are dying, there is nothing there worth paying for.

BeerNut · 23-01-2019 12:59pm

Phase 2 information is out today. My front garden has survived and sadly, also, my mortgage

Thrashssacre · 23-01-2019 1:31pm

A partial one way ballyfermot road for general traffic..... can’t see that one going down to well with locals...

Dyr · 23-01-2019 1:36pm

How do TFI get their street infrastructure past aPB and the Corpo? Everything they put in is as ugly as sin but they seem to be able to put them up without let nor hindrance

cherryghost · 23-01-2019 1:47pm

Basically all of Crumlin road has land retake, pretty much as expected. The massive bottleneck at Dean St is still there, the only solution being a 'bus only' light taking priority over other vehicles.

Telchak · 23-01-2019 9:45pm

cherryghost wrote: »

Basically all of Crumlin road has land retake, pretty much as expected. The massive bottleneck at Dean St is still there, the only solution being a 'bus only' light taking priority over other vehicles.

This is particularly disappointing, it's the single worst spot on that corridor. I get a ridiculously earlier bus than I need to every morning just because I've been screwed over so many times at this one spot.

tom1ie · 23-01-2019 10:22pm

very underwhelmed by route 10 along the templeogue road. They could have really went for it and took a meter or two off the gardens along here for a city bound bus lane and the same could have been done regards terenure college. On the other hand this would have got busses quicker into terenure village where spine route 10 merges with spine route 12 which might have complicated things.

G-Man · 23-01-2019 11:03pm

Was the plan for Tallaght via crumlin road done by some low level AI, it so bad.

Opposite Crumlin childrens hospital, they propose taking a strip of garden off 25 home owners.. Why not take 1 strip off the hospital (which is due to move shortly ) parking instead of riling up 25 home owners

tom1ie · 23-01-2019 11:18pm

pity cars couldn't be diverted down a parallel road to georges street/ aungier street. Then there could be a two way bus lane along that route. This part of the route is such a bottleneck, your actually quicker walking from d.i.t towards central bank most of the time.

cgcsb · 24-01-2019 12:32am

tom1ie wrote: »

pity cars couldn't be diverted down a parallel road to georges street/ aungier street. Then there could be a two way bus lane along that route. This part of the route is such a bottleneck, your actually quicker walking from d.i.t towards central bank most of the time.

Agree although with a pedestrian college green and a bus only parliament st, the volumes would be lower. If it were me I would all traffic turn onto exchequer st and make the dame st end of George's st bus only

eyeball kid · 24-01-2019 9:10am

Very misleading headline in today's Indo 'Traffic lights on M50 part of disruptions under Bus Connects plan'

They're on about lights on the Coldcut bridge!

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/traffic-lights-on-m50-part-of-disruptions-under-bus-connects-plan-37744021.html

Seth Brundle · 24-01-2019 9:22am

I was about to post that also.
Typical Indo shíte

Evil_g · 24-01-2019 9:26am

So even the best parts (from a cyclist's perspective) are going to have a bus stop in the cycle lane every few hundred meters?

I know they have to work with what they've got (or can realistically hope to CPO) but is this the best that can be done? How does this compare to best practice internationally?

eyeball kid · 24-01-2019 9:30am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I was about to post that also.
Typical Indo shíte

They read it out on Newstalk Breakfast this morning in their headlines piece as well.

cherryghost · 24-01-2019 9:34am

Evil_g wrote: »

So even the best parts (from a cyclist's perspective) are going to have a bus stop in the cycle lane every few hundred meters?

I know they have to work with what they've got (or can realistically hope to CPO) but is this the best that can be done? How does this compare to best practice internationally?

Was thinking the same thing. I thought the aim was complete segregation. It's still way better than most corridors at this moment, but a bit disappointing nonetheless

Evil_g · 24-01-2019 9:56am

cherryghost wrote: »

Was thinking the same thing. I thought the aim was complete segregation. It's still way better than most corridors at this moment, but a bit disappointing nonetheless

Just reading to the end of the Kimmage Brochure (from page 38).

It looks like they're directing cyclists away from the bus corridors in some locations, through residential areas with "Priority arrangement junctions" to suit cyclists (whatever that means). It looks like the strategy might be to get cyclists to the canal, from where the cycle path is excellent.

That might work. I'd be interested to hear more.

I'm not even a cyclist, but I'd like to be. You'd want to be mad to cycle in Dublin at the moment.

[edit] They're even proposing a new cyclist / pedestrian bridge over the canal at Grove Road (page 42). That sounds like a great idea.

L1011 · 24-01-2019 10:37am

G-Man wrote: »

Opposite Crumlin childrens hospital, they propose taking a strip of garden off 25 home owners.. Why not take 1 strip off the hospital (which is due to move shortly ) parking instead of riling up 25 home owners

Because the HSE are considering retaining the hospital for adult hospital purposes and doing that would make the helipad inoperable.

Heartbreak Hank · 24-01-2019 11:29am

Evil_g wrote: »

Just reading to the end of the Kimmage Brochure (from page 38).

It looks like they're directing cyclists away from the bus corridors in some locations, through residential areas with "Priority arrangement junctions" to suit cyclists (whatever that means). It looks like the strategy might be to get cyclists to the canal, from where the cycle path is excellent.

That might work. I'd be interested to hear more.

I'm not even a cyclist, but I'd like to be. You'd want to be mad to cycle in Dublin at the moment.

[edit] They're even proposing a new cyclist / pedestrian bridge over the canal at Grove Road (page 42). That sounds like a great idea.

Some of those junctions currently have kerbs across the direction of the proposed cycle routes. I presume they mean to make them cycling accessible and give the right of way in that direction too.

Example

That section of the canal to the west of Portabello where they are directing people isn't as good a standard as east of it where it is segregated. If everywhere was as good as that section I would think loads more people would cycle.

Evil_g · 24-01-2019 12:10pm

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

That section of the canal to the west of Portabello where they are directing people isn't as good a standard as east of it where it is segregated. If everywhere was as good as that section I would think loads more people would cycle.

Another set of traffic lights across what is already a very congested Grove Road will be interesting too.

I wonder are they going to release similar infrastructure plans for the orbital routes any time soon?

On first look, the interchanges at Sundrive - Lower Kimmage Road, and South Circular - Richmond Street, don't look all that well thought out.

i.e. It looks like a bit of a trek from one bus stop to another.

Surely these elements are critical to plans?

(I'm trying not to be critical by the way...in general this all looks very positive)

cgcsb · 24-01-2019 12:46pm

Evil_g wrote: »

I wonder are they going to release similar infrastructure plans for the orbital routes any time soon?

I think this is crucial, especially for the proper functioning of the proposed O route. Unfortunately this seems to be long fingered.

cherryghost · 24-01-2019 1:01pm

Don't forget 2027 is the target. 8 years from now. Their 'current' bus journey time for many of the routes is already inaccurate. The service is already heaving and need of immediate attention, some action needs to be take now. People's QoL is degrading month-on-month because of it. I hope the final proposed route implementations are out soon.

purple hands · 24-01-2019 3:01pm

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

Some of those junctions currently have kerbs across the direction of the proposed cycle routes. I presume they mean to make them cycling accessible and give the right of way in that direction too.

Example

Will be very interested to hear what's planned for this, those kerbs are there for donkey's years apparently but its still a bit of a rat run at times

Evil_g · 24-01-2019 3:42pm

purple hands wrote: »

Will be very interested to hear what's planned for this, those kerbs are there for donkey's years apparently but its still a bit of a rat run at times

Looks like they're planning a bike lane through St. Mary's School in Rathmines too. Between the school and the front Rugby field.

Charles O'Carroll Kelly has probably already sent his letter to the Times.

Hotblack Desiato · 24-01-2019 4:49pm

Anyone know what the point of the short bus-only stretch on Kildare Road is?

Also why motorcyclists are being ignored? It says buses, cyclists and taxis only will be allowed on that stretch. There's no traffic or safety reason to not allow motorcycles past the restriction, as they are on George's St right turn onto Dame St for instance.

cgcsb · 24-01-2019 5:07pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Anyone know what the point of the short bus-only stretch on Kildare Road is?

Going out on a limb here, but I'd say it's to reduce the numbers of cars sharing road space with buses thus improving bus journey time and reliability.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Also why motorcyclists are being ignored? It says buses, cyclists and taxis only will be allowed on that stretch. There's no traffic or safety reason to not allow motorcycles past the restriction, as they are on George's St right turn onto Dame St for instance.

Same as every bus lane in Dublin. Motorcycles use them, even though most often there's no mention of them on a sign, and because of the confusion the gardaí aren't going to stop anyone.

Dyr · 24-01-2019 6:46pm

cherryghost wrote: »

Don't forget 2027 is the target. 8 years from now. Their 'current' bus journey time for many of the routes is already inaccurate. The service is already heaving and need of immediate attention, some action needs to be take now. People's QoL is degrading month-on-month because of it. I hope the final proposed route implementations are out soon.

The really funny thing is the hope that if you throw even more resources at organisations which have shown they cant manage resources theyll somehow come up trumps

Hotblack Desiato · 24-01-2019 6:48pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Going out on a limb here, but I'd say it's to reduce the numbers of cars sharing road space with buses thus improving bus journey time and reliability.

Glib answer to say the least

Why there? Why such a short stretch?

Same as every bus lane in Dublin. Motorcycles use them, even though most often there's no mention of them on a sign, and because of the confusion the gardaren't going to stop anyone.

You didn't read my post properly, did you.

monument · 24-01-2019 10:19pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Glib answer to say the least

Why there? Why such a short stretch?

Because when you reduce traffic to local, one-way and no through travel for cars, then the congestion is massively eased without needing bus lanes along the road and still allowing for access.

trellheim · 25-01-2019 11:13am

I wanted to show some of the problems around Blackhall Place

Shot 1:

Tuesday this week time 1800 Blackhall Place looking north from the bus stop - every private car is in the bus lane and its jammed

Shot 2 :

Turn 180 degrees after walking past the gates - three buses stuck in said bus lane, 39a full to the brim , 37 full to the brim, and 70 full to the brim . At Law library, Stoneybatter, Manor Street and Prussia St there were people left behind ( I walked up as there was no point waiting )

So every busis completely packed out and savage problems with traffic as well - improvements here cant come fast enough .

Hotblack Desiato · 25-01-2019 11:32am

monument wrote: »

Because when you reduce traffic to local, one-way and no through travel for cars, then the congestion is massively eased without needing bus lanes along the road and still allowing for access.

Another glib non-answer that could be applied to the entire city.

markpb · 25-01-2019 11:36am

trellheim wrote: »

So every bus is completely packed out and savage problems with traffic as well - improvements here cant come fast enough .

It's a pity we don't have a police force armed with a copy of the Road Traffic Acts and a notebook for recording fines to be issued.

Once that's done, the council could install a few flappy wands (like N1 approaching Whitehall) or, preferably, kerbs between the bus lane and regular lane.

MJohnston · 25-01-2019 11:55am

trellheim wrote: »

I wanted to show some of the problems around Blackhall Place

Shot 1: Tuesday this week time 1800 Blackhall Place looking north from the bus stop - every private car is in the bus lane and its jammed

Shot 2 : Turn 180 degrees after walking past the gates - three buses stuck in said bus lane, 39a full to the brim , 37 full to the brim, and 70 full to the brim . At Law library, Stoneybatter, Manor Street and Prussia St there were people left behind ( I walked up as there was no point waiting )

So every busis completely packed out and savage problems with traffic as well - improvements here cant come fast enough .

It's such a badly designed flow, among many in Dublin that is absolutely broken, but DCC refuse to even bother.

Most of the private cars on Blackhall Place want to continue north towards Prussia Street, but the tailbacks from the badly placed crossing lights at Arbour Place usually mean that there is a line of traffic coming back onto Blackhall Place.

Which means if you're in a private car coming up there, you have two options - stay in the right lane until the bus lane ends and then block right-turning traffic while trying to cut in, or pull into the bus lane early and leave the right lane for right turning traffic. These are both terrible options, but they're the only ones available - the first option is probably the "correct" one, but then you have the problem of 'jumping the queue'.

I would pick one of two solutions:
1. Keep the left lane on Blackhall Place fully bus lane, the whole way to the lights, and bollard block it. Change the right lane to allow for straight ahead and right turning traffic. Then signal control the flow here, like the lights on Bachelor's Walk - one light for the left bus lane, one light for the right lane (which would have a simultaneous right turn filter lane to prevent blockages that way). Additionally, remove all the parking spots north from Blackhall Place until just after DrinkStore on Manor Street (I think this might be already banned during peak hours). And then move the crossing lights from where they are at Arbour Place a bit further north to just after the bus stops at the Centra.
2. Northbound on Manor Street becomes bus only. All other traffic must turn right off Blackhall Place. In return, rearrange the junction of North Brunswick Street and Grangegorman Lower, so that traffic from Blackhall Place can access Grangegorman Lower. Then you either allow traffic to get back to Manor Street via Kirwan Street (signalise the junction with Manor Street), or force it up onto NCR (which has terrible traffic at the best of times because the lights at Hanlon's Corner are dismally timed.

trellheim · 25-01-2019 12:10pm

I've posted this in Busconnects as there is a lot of changes coming in the area , but I did want to highlight how awful it is at peak and how badly an improved bus service is needed.

Does the railway not go out to Clonsilla at all - does that not take a lot of this ?

sharper · 25-01-2019 12:23pm

trellheim wrote: »

Does the railway not go out to Clonsilla at all - does that not take a lot of this ?

The Maynooth line does go to Clonsilla but the problem is the trains are full.

I regularly get a bus that leaves from Westmoreland street and goes to Maynooth. It's often totally full by the second stop. It should make a lot more sense to get the train but the capacity isn't there and it won't be for a long time.

That's also a weakness in the Busconnects plan for any area with a train line. One of the input assumptions is to assume people would get the train.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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