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Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,497 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Cabaal wrote: »
    If they decide anything else (pro-life) it'll kill their voting base in the rest of Ireland even more then it already has...especially with younger voters.

    What I mean is that a lot of the old stagers in NI-SF are conservative catholics, it's not a party renowned for people speaking out :pac: but it wouldn't surpirse me if a lot of the natives were not happy, even down south they had a fair number of defections.

    In fairness you do have to acknowledge what Enda Kenny did with FG, few would have thought of them as a pro-choice party (difficulties in passing POLDPA in 2013 in spite of the fact that all that it did was codify the Supreme Court's view of the 8th Amendment - the ending of Lucinda et al's political careers on that hill looks laughable and utterly pathetic now)

    - but he gave a tap to a boulder and it rolled down the slope and gathered a lot of momentum - citizens' assembly was a genius move because the pro-life postion cannot withstand factual evidence -eventually even conservative Leo got behind it, and we are now in a situation where most NI voters are looking enviously at us because we have something they want but their so-called politicians won't let them have it.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    A poll of people below the voting age [teenage girls] in respect to the question of availability of abortion rights to them might make for interesting reading, though the notion of doing such a poll would probably be resisted by people from differing POV's. Young unsophisticated minds shouldn't be burdened with/have ideas planted etc...

    Given the range of topics the teenagers have before them now that teenagers a few years ago didn't have to read on/think about/decide their personal POV on, I'd hazard a guess the average Irish teenager has been reading/talking broadly on topics involving sex for the past 5 or more years unbeknownst to the average Irish adult of 30+ age.

    EDIT:Accord to an artic el in the iCatholic, "... a coach and horses has essentially been driven through the democratic process and the whole concept of devolution ..."
    Archbishop Eamon Martin expresses his concern about how a Westminster Bill was "hijacked" to set in motion a change in the law in Northern Ireland regarding abortion by the end of October. The following link covers the article, should one choose to open and read/listen to it. https://www.icatholic.ie/ni-abortion-law-eamon-martin/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,497 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Public opinion in NI is clearly in favour of the introduction of abortion legislation, so all the talk about 'undemocratic' etc etc is just nonsense.

    What's undemocratic is elected representatives getting paid yet refusing to do their jobs for years on end, and extremely conservative catholic and protestant opinions having undue sway over SDLP and DUP respectively when these opinions are only held by a small proportion of the electorate.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,141 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Public opinion in NI is clearly in favour of the introduction of abortion legislation, so all the talk about 'undemocratic' etc etc is just nonsense.

    What's undemocratic is elected representatives getting paid yet refusing to do their jobs for years on end, and extremely conservative catholic and protestant opinions having undue sway over SDLP and DUP respectively when these opinions are only held by a small proportion of the electorate.

    if people don't want conservative catholic and protestant views represented as if they were the majority view when it may not be the case, then they need to vote for other parties. you get what you vote for.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,814 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    aloyisious wrote: »
    A poll of people below the voting age [teenage girls] in respect to the question of availability of abortion rights to them might make for interesting reading, though the notion of doing such a poll would probably be resisted by people from differing POV's. Young unsophisticated minds shouldn't be burdened with/have ideas planted etc...

    Can't find the stat now, but IIRC an exit poll after the repeal referendum showed something like 92 percent of 18-25-year-old women voted yes


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    if people don't want conservative catholic and protestant views represented as if they were the majority view when it may not be the case, then they need to vote for other parties. you get what you vote for.

    Karen Bradley, is that you?

    Honestly, if you don't understand why one group of people in NI vote one way and another group of people vote another in Northern Ireland then you don't understand Northern Ireland.

    I'll give you a hint, it's almost zero to do with the partys stance on abortion and marriage and much more to do with northern Irelands history.

    DUP bleat on time and time again about how the union is important to them, since they won't form an assembly its only right Westminster take charge and bring Northern Ireland laws inline with the rest of that union the DUP claim to love.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,141 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Karen Bradley, is that you?

    Honestly, if you don't understand why one group of people in NI vote one way and another group of people vote another in Northern Ireland then you don't understand Northern Ireland.

    I'll give you a hint, it's almost zero to do with the partys stance on abortion and marriage and much more to do with northern Irelands history.

    DUP bleat on time and time again about how the union is important to them, since they won't form an assembly its only right Westminster take charge and bring Northern Ireland laws inline with the rest of that union the DUP claim to love.


    i am well aware of how things work up there. i have been discussing northern ireland and it's history and mountains of issues caused by that history for years both here and elsewhere.
    and no it's not right westminster take charge and force british laws on non-british territory, especially when westminster is unable to govern actual british territory properly.
    it should but out of northern ireland and let the devolved government either get back working, or to wallow and do nothing, for which the public there might get annoyed enough to push them to get back to work.
    if westminster interferes here now, it probably won't stop and who knows what damage it may do to everything that has been worked for. westminster has been the cause of northern ireland's problems ever since it split it from the south.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    i am well aware of how things work up there. i have been discussing northern ireland and it's history and mountains of issues caused by that history for years both here and elsewhere.
    and no it's not right westminster take charge and force british laws on non-british territory, especially when westminster is unable to govern actual british territory properly.
    it should but out of northern ireland and let the devolved government either get back working, or to wallow and do nothing, for which the public there might get annoyed enough to push them to get back to work.
    if westminster interferes here now, it probably won't stop and who knows what damage it may do to everything that has been worked for. westminster has been the cause of northern ireland's problems ever since it split it from the south.


    Come on, drop the Westminster taking charge and forcing British laws on non-British territory in respect to equal civil marriage and abortion services argument. You mean it taking charge when both of the main political parties which had been running the local Govt there had a falling-out over proposed language laws and use of Govt funds and stopped providing a Govt for the good of N/I citizens. You're conveniently forgetting that one of the N/I failing parties claims to be British by choice and very fond of Westminster law. Its on quasi-religious grounds that particular loyal to Britishness party is trying to prevent the institution of civil laws already available to, and used by, other British citizens.

    Oddly enough its similar law rights brought in by the Irish Govt, at the behest and instruction of the citizens of the republic that Westminster is in the process of introducing for the citizens of N/I that you seem to be objecting to. The laws, if brought in by Westminster, will provide an equality of service to Irish citizens in N/I to that given to citizens of the republic under Irish law, something I believe you will appreciate, unless you totally oppose the similar laws on equal civil marriage and minimal abortion services legislated for and applying down here, and by default, ally your argument with that of the objecting Pro-Westminster N/I party.

    The failure of the devolved govt to work has absolutely nothing to do with the abortion law changes Westminster is aiming to bring into effect in N/I and you, given how you have been discussing N/I with others, must be well aware of that fact.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,823 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Fair play to the Kiwis, they've finally decriminalized abortion, though their time limit's too low imo. Ireland should adopt some of this and remove the 12 week limit.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-newzealand-abortion/new-zealand-to-decriminalize-abortion-laws-critics-say-bill-falls-short-idUSKCN1UV04U


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    I like the third ground, the woman's well-being. It covers social and actual ability to care for any child that would be born if an abortion was refused.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch




  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Pro-Life Soldier Bootcamp in the USA featured on Vice News.

    One thing is clear from pro-life side, they are extremely well funded
    You've only have to listen to the brief run down of money they pay out to students, using 4-Stars hotels etc



    They believe they are there to save the world......
    :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,823 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Salvadoran woman, previously sentenced to 40 years imprisonment due to a stillbirth, now freed.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/08/el-salvador-clears-woman-serving-30-years-for-stillbirth-as-teenager.html

    Apparently there are 147 other women in Salvadoran prisons under the same sentence. Imagine being a woman in that country.

    Now, let's hope NI doesn't reconstitute Stormont before 21 October and this island will be free of equivalent horrible legislation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,497 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Well, that explains why an Irish Times article from 2013 was most-read yesterday! (it's linked in the Guardian article)

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-church-teaching-on-abortion-dates-from-1869-1.1449517


    As regards the survey results, is anyone the least bit surprised?

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Well, that explains why an Irish Times article from 2013 was most-read yesterday! (it's linked in the Guardian article)

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-church-teaching-on-abortion-dates-from-1869-1.1449517


    As regards the survey results, is anyone the least bit surprised?

    Pius must have depended on infallibility to conclude that Mary was conceived free of original sin herself unless it was a committee [synod] decision.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    aloyisious wrote: »

    Not at all surprising really, between interactions with pro-lifers both online and offline their views towards women tend to be very restricting and controlling, they generally don't trust or really like women.

    Before somebody says "but many pro-lifers are women", sadly that doesn't change the fact that many women can be women's own worst enemy's. We all knows these types of women exist and even during the suffragette movement many women opposed the very idea of women voting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,497 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-politicians-must-defend-life-from-conception-to-death-1.4009321
    Catholic politicians are obliged to oppose laws that violate the integrity of life “from conception to death”, Archbishop of Armagh and Catholic Primate of All Ireland Eamon Martin has said.
    "People of faith must always be attentive to the danger of living parallel lives whereby they compartmentalise their existence into spiritual and secular spheres."

    Splitters!
    "Neither should they confuse their personal opinion with a well-formed Christian conscience."

    Translation:

    "Yous might think yous know what yous are talking about but yous don't. Forget all that stuff yous might have heard from the church about free will and conscience. Yous only have one of those piddly little ordinary consciences. I've spent years studying advanced God Stuff so I've got a well-formed christian conscience, I'm practically one step away from papal infallibility. But if you listen to your conscience, it might be the devil whispering in your ear. So shut up and do as I tell you."

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-politicians-must-defend-life-from-conception-to-death-1.4009321





    Splitters!



    Translation:

    "Yous might think yous know what yous are talking about but yous don't. Forget all that stuff yous might have heard from the church about free will and conscience. Yous only have one of those piddly little ordinary consciences. I've spent years studying advanced God Stuff so I've got a well-formed christian conscience, I'm practically one step away from papal infallibility. But if you listen to your conscience, it might be the devil whispering in your ear. So shut up and do as I tell you."

    So he's admitting that he sees a lot of peoples personal opinion is NOT based on the religious instruction they got at the hand of the church, as in olden days. Peculiar that his opinion-piece is to that most British of southern newspapers, the Irish Times, instead of to the Irish Examiner or the Indo, or even a red top. Its possible pure coincidence that its published on the weekend there's an anti-abortion rally at Stormont protesting the passage into law in N/I of UK introduced legal changes on abortion.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,823 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    aloyisious wrote: »
    So he's admitting that he sees a lot of peoples personal opinion is NOT based on the religious instruction they got at the hand of the church, as in olden days. Peculiar that his opinion-piece is to that most British of southern newspapers, the Irish Times, instead of to the Irish Examiner or the Indo, or even a red top. Its possible pure coincidence that its published on the weekend there's an anti-abortion rally at Stormont protesting the passage into law in N/I of UK introduced legal changes on abortion.

    Good point Aloysious. With the shenanigans in Westminster, the law's guaranteed to change now, there's zero chance Stormont comes back and the gummint is soon to be off running an election. 21 September can't come soon enough


  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Good point Aloysious. With the shenanigans in Westminster, the law's guaranteed to change now, there's zero chance Stormont comes back and the gummint is soon to be off running an election. 21 September can't come soon enough

    Well one half ignore the crown as much as they can and the other half would fight the crown to stay loyal to the crown, so it might not be that cut and dry.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,814 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Igotadose wrote: »
    21 September can't come soon enough

    21 October is the deadline, so bit away yet


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Good point Aloysious. With the shenanigans in Westminster, the law's guaranteed to change now, there's zero chance Stormont comes back and the gummint is soon to be off running an election. 21 September can't come soon enough


    Interestingly enough, RTE Radio 1 covered the N/I angle on the 6 news, with Adlene Foster and Baroness Nuala O'Loan. Arlene was decrying the incoming change in law but it's what Nuala said that surprised me, if I heard her right: she said there would be no law against abortion in N/I. If what I heard was right, she seems to infer it would be a free for all.

    EDIT: Nuala O'Loan was speaking at the anti-abortion rally today so what she said in reference to mine above would have to be seen in light of her presence on the stage at the anti-abortion rally.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,400 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    aloyisious wrote: »
    Interestingly enough, RTE Radio 1 covered the N/I angle on the 6 news, with Adlene Foster and Baroness Nuala O'Loan. Arlene was decrying the incoming change in law but it's what Nuala said that surprised me, if I heard her right: she said there would be no law against abortion in N/I. If what I heard was right, she seems to infer it would be a free for all.

    Abortion not being illegal doesn't make it a free for all. There's no law threatening doctors with prison for unnecessary weight loss surgery but it isn't a free for all, people are refused it when they don't meet the medical criteria.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    I tried for the specific nwews podcast, probably too soon. Did pick up this though: https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0907/1074495-belfast-abortion-protest/


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Abortion not being illegal doesn't make it a free for all. There's no law threatening doctors with prison for unnecessary weight loss surgery but it isn't a free for all, people are refused it when they don't meet the medical criteria.

    I'm thinking that Nuala was spreading the scare-words that with no N/I law against abortion, people will be performing abortion ops without legal restriction, a return to backstreet abortion procedures.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,823 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    aloyisious wrote: »
    I'm thinking that Nuala was spreading the scare-words that with no N/I law against abortion, people will be performing abortion ops without legal restriction, a return to backstreet abortion procedures.

    Nah. Occam's razor - she's just scaremongering to the choir. When it comes to the forced-birthers, never attribute to incompetence what's due to malice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,497 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    aloyisious wrote: »
    Peculiar that his opinion-piece is to that most British of southern newspapers, the Irish Times

    It's not southern, it's based in Dublin, so it's eastern :rolleyes:

    FFS do you ever read it?

    The most "British" of Irish "newspapers", not counting the semi-localised editions of UK rags, would be the Sunday Independent

    If you want to keep up with "the royals" and z-list celebs it's the one for you.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,497 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    aloyisious wrote: »
    EDIT: Nuala O'Loan was speaking at the anti-abortion rally today so what she said in reference to mine above would have to be seen in light of her presence on the stage at the anti-abortion rally.

    Nuala O'Loan is a hardline anti-choicer so not a word out of her mouth on this topic can be believed.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Nuala O'Loan is a hardline anti-choicer so not a word out of her mouth on this topic can be believed.

    Ta for that. I hadn't seen her head above the parapet before on this issue, just remembered her as Police Ombudsman, assumed wrongly because of that she would be sceptical when it came to the content of group speech and had an uninvolved POV on things. How wrong I was.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    It's not southern, it's based in Dublin, so it's eastern :rolleyes:

    FFS do you ever read it?

    The most "British" of Irish "newspapers", not counting the semi-localised editions of UK rags, would be the Sunday Independent

    If you want to keep up with "the royals" and z-list celebs it's the one for you.

    The Times, used to for the courts coverage and Frank McDonald. I find the Examiner being more into investigative journalism now than the Times. As for the party stable paper...., the weekly version is useful while in McDonalds as its free to read there with a coffee.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,172 ✭✭✭Bredabe


    The news letter for a church in the county has mentions giannacare and its services every week, for months now.
    This week I noticed they have changed the information to include its pro life stand.

    Has there been legislation or some kind of obligation for them to say this enacted lately?

    "Have you ever wagged your tail so hard you fell over"?-Brod Higgins.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Bredabe wrote: »
    The news letter for a church in the county has mentions giannacare and its services every week, for months now.
    This week I noticed they have changed the information to include its pro life stand.

    Has there been legislation or some kind of obligation for them to say this enacted lately?

    I don’t understand what your query is here. Can you be a bit clearer?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Bredabe wrote: »
    The news letter for a church in the county has mentions giannacare and its services every week, for months now.
    This week I noticed they have changed the information to include its pro life stand.

    Has there been legislation or some kind of obligation for them to say this enacted lately?

    Nope, I don't think you can legislate to make honesty compulsory.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    aloyisious wrote: »
    Nope, I don't think you can legislate to make honesty compulsory.

    I don’t follow at all. Where is the dishonesty?
    http://giannacare.ie/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,823 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Mutter...grumble...

    I'm in an FB group, "gaelige amhain,' where we discuss various things about Irish, in Irish. Helpful to me as I'm learning, I have the Irish language ability of a slightly conversant 5 year old, but I can copy/paste into Google Translate with the best of them.

    Well guess what. The pro-life phonies have shown up whining about the law changes coming to Northern Ireland. They pop up whenever there's a rally in favor of their pile of lies. My problem is, my Irish isn't good enough to refute them. If yours is, or know someone who might help, here's the group:
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/166677873392308/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    splinter65 wrote: »
    I don’t follow at all. Where is the dishonesty?
    http://giannacare.ie/

    Would you prefer me to write duplicitious use of the English language on posters and in the literature used by the anti-abortion side of the debate instead of dishonesty?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    aloyisious wrote: »
    Would you prefer me to write duplicitious use of the English language on posters and in the literature used by the anti-abortion side of the debate instead of dishonesty?

    No just show me the instances of giannacare presenting themselves dishonestly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    splinter65 wrote: »
    I don’t follow at all. Where is the dishonesty?
    http://giannacare.ie/

    I went to one of their support meetings. It was pure manipulation of vulnerable women.

    One of the oddest things I heard at it was non abortion related, a member of the group was told that reiki was a means for the devil to enter the body. :o

    It's run by religious fundamentals so what do you expect


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    splinter65 wrote: »
    No just show me the instances of giannacare presenting themselves dishonestly.

    Perhaps you could go back to the question I responded to [Originally Posted by Bredabe The news letter for a church in the county has mentions giannacare and its services every week, for months now. This week I noticed they have changed the information to include its pro life stand - Has there been legislation or some kind of obligation for them to say this enacted lately?] with my response "Nope, I don't think you can legislate to make honesty compulsory" reread them and you might see there is more than a touch of sarcasm included.

    If you are aware of the history of anti-abortion groups operating here [which I certainly hope you are] in Ireland, you might see that there is good reason to be a touch sceptical about the honesty of publications from those groups. I made no reference to giannacare, the body which you seem most worried about. If giannacare wishes to associate itself with the other groups then maybe you could advise it of the other groups publication and advertising history at and for events and rallies here, given their strong reluctance to be upfront in answers to questions posed to them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Mutter...grumble...

    I'm in an FB group, "gaelige amhain,' where we discuss various things about Irish, in Irish. Helpful to me as I'm learning, I have the Irish language ability of a slightly conversant 5 year old, but I can copy/paste into Google Translate with the best of them.

    Well guess what. The pro-life phonies have shown up whining about the law changes coming to Northern Ireland. They pop up whenever there's a rally in favor of their pile of lies. My problem is, my Irish isn't good enough to refute them. If yours is, or know someone who might help, here's the group:
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/166677873392308/

    I would suggest contacting Gaeil ar son Rogha, they were the pro-choice group for Irish speakers during the referendum. They would have plenty of people who are well able to refute their arguments in Irish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,738 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    splinter65 wrote: »
    I don’t follow at all. Where is the dishonesty?
    http://giannacare.ie/

    have a look at the 81% claim in the FAQ then read the paper that is used as the source.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    Just to expand briefly on uptherebels point about the giannacare citation for the benefit of the readers here, the only positive evidence that giannacare provide in support of the services they provide is a reference to a 2011 paper published in the British Journal of Psychiatry by Priscilla Coleman. However, this study is about as textbook an example of flawed and unethical science as its possible to get.


    And here's why.


    A brief introduction to the paper. This paper was published in 2011 and purports to be a systematic review and meta-analysis of the relationship between abortion and mental health. It cites 22 studies and finds that:


    "Women who had undergone an abortion experienced an 81% increased risk of mental health problems, and nearly 10% of the incidence of mental health problems was shown to be attributable to abortion."

    We don't have to dig very deeply to find problems with this paper.


    Problem 1 - Data misuse
    The first indication of a problem with this paper is in the methodology where the author states:

    "the sample comprised 22 studies, 36 measures of effect and 877 181 participants (163 831 experienced an abortion)"

    This is a dishonest approach to methodology. A meta-analysis is designed to synthesise data from small independent studies in order to see if there's a larger effect. The key word here is independent. If you've got 22 studies then the maximum measures of effect you can have is 22, not 36. Also the 22 studies included in the review actually stem from 14 datasets so there should only be 14 measures of effect. Anything beyond that is double counting.


    Problem 2 - Ethical considerations
    In the paper the author declares no conflicts of interest. However this is doubly wrong. First, the author fails to mention in the paper that of the 22 papers included in the review, she is the author of 11 of the papers. This is a breach of established guidelines on conducting a meta-analysis. The Cochrane Collaboration guidelines on conducting a meta-analysis state:

    “there should be an independent assessment of eligibility and risk of bias by a second author [of the meta-analysis] with no conflict of interest.”


    However, Coleman is the sole author of the paper.


    Second, she is also a prominent anti-abortion campaigner who has previously spoken about using journals as a platform for campaigning. She has stated:

    "We need to develop organised research communities to continue the research, apply for grants, recruit young academics, critique data produced by pro-choice researchers, challenge politically biased professional organisations, train experts to testify and disseminate cohesive summaries of evidence."


    Problem 3 - Selection criteria
    There are several problems with the paper which fall under the category of selection criteria, i.e. deciding which papers to include in the study.
    First, there is a general lack of transparency. While the author includes the databases searched and some general criteria, she fails to include the search terms and also fails to detail why certain papers which fulfil the criteria were still excluded from the analysis.
    Second, the author fails to acknowledge or comment on the existence of publication bias. The idea of a systematic review is to examine what the individual papers in a field suggest when examined as a single entity. But the prerequisite for that is that you have a level playing field to begin with, i.e. that negative studies haven't been left unpublished. However, in this instance, Ben Goldacre and William Lee have demonstrated that there is in fact significant publication bias in this field. This should require a large caveat in the interpretation of the results but there is none.

    Third, the author fails to account for the quality of the included studies. Three of the studies included were rated Poor for methodology by the Royal College of Psychiatrists. Further, in their own systematic review of the literature in 2011, 13 of the studies included in the Coleman paper were excluded because of methodological issues. Five studies were excluded because of inappropriate control of prior mental health (i.e. the papers in question didn't find out whether or not the women involved already had mental health problems before abortion). Four studies were excluded because they failed to compare groups properly (e.g. women who had abortions were compared against women who had both planned and unplanned full-term pregnancies). One study was excluded because it had overlapping groups (i.e. women who had had both an abortion and an unplanned full-term pregnancy). One study was excluded because it contained no relevant data and finally two studies were excluded because of inadequate controls relating to how the data itself was measured.

    Finally, in addition to including poor quality studies in the paper, the author also fails to acknowledge that a 2008 literature review which the author references highlighted the relationship between study quality and health outcomes:

    "The highest quality studies had findings that were mostly neutral, suggesting few, if any, differences between women who had abortions and their respective comparison groups in terms of mental health sequelae. Conversely, studies with the most flawed methodology found negative mental health sequelae of abortion."


    Problem 4 - Reporting errors
    There are two issues here, one minor and one much more significant but they are interconnected.

    First, the author of the paper misleadingly reports the risk in the paper abstract as relative risk increase. You see, there are three ways that you can report on risk in a study. You can report the relative risk increase as the author has done here, you can report the objective risk increase or you can report the natural frequency.

    For example, let's say that you're studying the risk of increase in heart attacks from coffee consumption. You find that drinking more than four cups of coffee a day leads to a 50% increase in risk. Now, let's say that out of every 100 people, 10 people get heart attacks. This is the natural frequency. So you can report your risk as an increase in the natural frequency, so in our hypothetical example, a 50% increase in risk means that an extra 5 people per 100 will get heart attacks (15 per 100 vs. 10 per 100). You can also report the objective risk increase. So in our hypothetical study, the baseline risk is 10%. The relative increase is 50% so the objective increase is just 5%.

    Reporting only the relative risk increase is misleading because it fails to take into account baseline risk. For example, last month the Irish Independent ran the following irresponsible and thoroughly clickbait-y headline:

    "C-section babies 'are one-third more likely to develop autism' but cause still unknown."

    This headline is completely misleading because it makes the problem much more significant than it really is. The reality is that (as reported by Reuters), the objective risk of autism increased from 0.8% to just over 1%.



    The second reporting problem is that the author also cites the population attributable risk results. This is a measure of how many people would not experience the outcome if the intervention were taken away. This means that this is the percentage of women who would not experience mental health issues if they didn't have an abortion which the author quotes as 10%. However, a population attributable risk is only useful when you have already demonstrated a causal relationship. The author of this study hasn't even demonstrated a firm correlation nevermind causation. Further, the author's method for calculating PAR is designed for outcomes which are rare among the population which is true for none of the mental health outcomes included in the paper.

    Other problems
    We have covered the main problems with the paper but there are other problems which are either more technical, more minor or more boring depending on your perspective and which we need not cover in more detail here. These include the author not adhering to her stated analysis criteria, the problem with multiple comparisons, problems with adjusting for confounding variables, problems with weighting of effect sizes and problems with applying appropriate controls to both the subjects and the effects measures.

    So, getting back to the current topic:

    splinter65 wrote: »
    I don’t follow at all. Where is the dishonesty?
    http://giannacare.ie/



    You want to know where the dishonesty is? Fine.



    It's dishonest to cite a paper on your website which has already been debunked by multiple authors (there have been 10 published rebuttals at last count) and which has been described by the Royal College of Psychiatrists as:


    "“cannot be regarded as a formal systematic review.”



    It's even more dishonest to describe the science on the issue as "undeniable" when all you've got is one discredited paper.



    It's also dishonest to cite risks of abortion without quantifying those risks in terms of numbers. For example, Gianna Care cite death as a risk of abortion. While that is true, without providing the statistics on this risk Gianna is being misleading and scaremongering. Just to show what I mean, the death rate from general surgical procedures in the US is approximately 1.3%. The death rate from abortions in the US is approximately 0.0014%. In 2008, for example, there were 825,564 abortions performed in the USA. In that period there were only 12 deaths from abortions or complications thereof. So abortion is 1800 times less risky than any standard hospital operation.

    Predicting Risk of Death in General Surgery Patients on the Basis of Preoperative Variables Using American College of Surgeons National Surgical Quality Improvement Program Data

    Abortion Surveillance 2009



    That and the other details linked to by DubInMeath show the dishonesty of Gianna Care. I hope that helps to clear things up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,497 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The Abortion Rights Campaign 2019 March For Choice is on Saturday 28th September, meeting at 2pm at the Garden of Remembrance, Dublin.

    Abortion is now legal but there are problems including -

    - Lack of access in many areas
    - The medically unneccessary three day wait
    - Difficulties facing those who must travel within Ireland
    - Lack of ultrasound facilities in many areas
    - No abortion access in Northern Ireland.

    An estimated one-third of Irish women having abortions are still travelling to Britain. This is what we voted to end.

    https://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/
    https://twitter.com/freesafelegal

    490800.jpg

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    I watched the BBC 1 TV show last night for studio local audience discussion of current affairs in N.I. where a News Letter journalist talked about the personal attacks on him by Ian Jnr & another DUP member because of an article he wrote for the News Letter on the local issue of abortion. DUP careful crafted response letter to what it would do about Ian included a line where it denied it was backing the introduction of abortion in N.I. because of its row with SF over the Irish language and another issue, re the DUP not agreeing with SF to get Stormont up and running again. It seems the DUP has stymied any attempt by itself to interfere with the introduction of abortion in N.I.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,497 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Can't make head nor tail of that, sorry.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Can't make head nor tail of that, sorry.

    Short translation is "Ulster says 'No!'" :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Ian got ratty with the journalist at a personal level over the News Letter article. The paper took Ian's actions up with the DUP & it issued a letter dodging Ian's activity, focusing instead on the journalists article covering the DUP & the lack of assembly sittings due to its row with SF. The article said that the DUP position in the Irish language row meant it wouldn't do anything to get the assembly back running, an essential means to try delay the incoming abortion law changes in NI. The DUP didn't like the article saying it was NOT doing anything to stop abortion coming to NI, despite its stated position opposing abortion in NI.

    Down this side of the border it seems the group/s opposing the operation of abortion law here are going for more protest actions across from the NMH on a long term basis, coincidentally near the date for the upcoming PRO RIGHT TO CHOOSE rally from Parnell Square, presumably to garner some of the media publicity the rally will arouse.

    Ta Hotblack_Desiato. poor choice of words by me.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,497 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It's not a pro-abortion rally ffs!!!

    Scrap the cap!



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