Gas Fracking

Geuze · 09-02-2012 10:18am

Off topic, but:

Banking - better = telephone and internet banking

Telecoms - far cheaper calls than 20 years ago

Airlines - cheaper, safer, more routes

Cars - safer, more fuel efficient, more comfort, more affordable than 20-30 years ago

Clothing - relatively cheaper

Geuze · 09-02-2012 10:19am

Back on topic.

More evidence of the benefits of cheaper natural gas from the USA:

http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2012/02/value_added.html

And the cheaper natural gas brought on by new drilling methods offers a big competitive advantage to manufacturing firms locating near the energy source:

" Last year, Nucor began construction on a new iron upgrader, just a few hundred feet away from the old facility in St. James Parish, La [closed in 2004]. It will cost $750 million to build and create 150 permanent jobs, which the company says will pay an average of $75,000 a year.

What changed? "Shale gas allows that natural gas to be more competitive, and more competitive natural gas enabled us to build this facility in Louisiana instead of building a second facility in Trinidad," says John Ferriola, Nucor's president."

tedshredsonfire · 10-02-2012 10:38pm

Geuze first off kudos for having relevant facts to hand. What happened in 2009 to the Ng price that had it at $2 ? The reality is its a commodity and rises and falls accoring to yes supply but also demand so lees economic activity = less demand and so the price gets cheaper. But overall energy prices are rising through the years including nat gas http://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/hist/n9190us3m.htm
If you find more gas/oil then yes in theory the price should get cheaper but OPEC might have a thing or two to say about that.

The whole fracking thing does seem extremely short sighted, yes we get some economic improvement but in this case I think it really is selling the crown jewels in return . We have (rightly or wrongly) a green image abroad, tourists do not come here for the weather, once we start carving up the scenery for industrial jobs etc I will be heading for Innishmurray and declaring it a seperate republic.
On a similar note although there has been a lot done on wave power it is in most places similar to wind power , not reliant enough for peak time usage at at times too strong so the turbines/ oscillators have to be shut off. Cant think of a reason Tidal hasnt seen more research epecially in Ireland. As long as we have the sun and the moon we will have regular tides of a definite and predictable range.

tuppence · 13-02-2012 12:25pm

This interview With tamborans Tony Bazley by Mary Cagney is essential viewing, just past the ads

http://www.tv3.ie/ireland_am.php?video=44956&locID=1.65.74

oeb · 13-02-2012 12:56pm

I listened to a pretty good podcast a few months ago about fracking and it's actuall effects. It's worth a read/listen.

It's available (And transcripted) here
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4275

loveisdivine · 13-02-2012 1:06pm

Fracking scares the hell out of me. It shouldnt be allowed to happen anywhere in the world.
We cannot keep draining the planet of its resources and damaging it irreversibly in the process.
I couldnt care less if it makes energy a little cheaper. I am able to look at the bigger picture, I dont care if it makes me a tree hugger or any other name people give to other people that care more about the environment than money.

I dont think its right to jeopardise our water and environment for the sake of a few hundred jobs, I dont care if it means someone from Australia could come back and work here. Its not a popular opinion, but one day we are going to have to stop putting ourselves as a species first, and look at the bigger picture.

tuppence · 16-02-2012 3:02am

"The Realities of Hydraulic Fracturing” – Dr. John O’Connor
“Fracking Inhumanity” – Jessica Ernst MSc
Wednesday February 22nd at 8pm Clarion Hotel, Sligo

A series of presentations on the potential impact of hydraulic fracturing, or ‘Fracking’ will take place in Dublin, Sligo, Fermanagh and Leitrim next week.
Dr. John O’Connor and Jessica Ernst, M.Sc., will travel from Canada to
address key issues in relation to the practice of Fracking, and to
address public concerns in relation to the proposed extraction of
shale gas in the North West using this controversial method.

Both speakers will reveal their first-hand experiences of hydraulic
fracking in Canada, and will outline their concerns regarding the processes involved, as the debate continues here over the granting of
licenses.
Ms. Ernst is a biologist and environmental consultant to the oil and gas industry, and long time critic of the method of Fracking in use in
Alberta, Canada.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xRQt3Q0xPc

Dr. O’Connor is a Irish born physician who came to prominence for
highlighting the increased cancer rates downstream from Canada’s
largest Tar Sands operations. The Alberta Cancer Board confirmed the higher incidences, after Health Canada and the Alberta College of Physicians spent time, and resources, denying the facts , and attempting to discredit Dr. O’Connor’s observations. Dr. O’Connor was vindicated completely by the Alberta College of Physicians, but no study to date, has yet been implemented, despite the Cancer Board’s recommendations. With first-hand experiences of living in rural communities where Fracking, and heavy drilling takes place, their insight into industry practices promises to be both informative and timely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLHgUmNtj9g

redarmyblues · 18-02-2012 12:58am

Nationally, I think this a is nimbyesque debate, if people are are not envionmentally concerned then the further away you are from the area, the more likely you are to favour it. It was put me last week by a Sligo local, flippantly I hope, that drilling should go ahead, it was worth 40bn to de country and if the rednecks had fire instead of water coming out the shower, then that was a bonus.

I don't think a desicion will be made in the short term but in the long term I think that a viable shannon system is the most important resource Ireland has.

tuppence · 20-02-2012 10:48pm

Strong article in Sligo today worth a read
http://www.sligotoday.ie/details.php?id=18758

wolf99 · 22-02-2012 12:46pm

I read somewhere that the reason that wave/tidal technology isnt taking off here is that it has been lobbied out by big industry

This is despite the fact that a very large majority of the research and development in these technologies is/was performed in this very country!!!

With one hand the govt fund such ventures through third level research and cross border innovation schemes, then they refuse to support real commercialization of the projects because it might put off petrochemical giants etc that might otherwise think about possibly locating here.

The irony is that a lot of the startups that are developing in this area have had to move most operations to the US and middle east to get a real commercial venture running.

Hows that read for the big benevolent multinational that apparently just wants to give us all a comfy job in a safe industry?? "Yeah waves pfff, ya cant count on them to keep going like carbon fuels will do..."

Tidyweb · 22-02-2012 7:18pm

That is not true and just random comments.

You obviously dont work in the energy business or in the government or in a commercial enterprise

Radharc na Sleibhte · 23-02-2012 1:45am

FYI those of you on Netflix, Gasland is on there.

wolf99 · 23-02-2012 10:27am

Tidyweb wrote: »

That is not true and just random comments.

You obviously dont work in the energy business or in the government or in a commercial enterprise

Hi Tidywebs, I assume your referring to my post? I did precede the comment by "I read somewhere..." I cannot remember exactly where, but wherever it was, just like you should not act as if I was trying to be the arbiter of truth, nor do I believe that whatever I read was true just because I read it.

No I do not work in the energy industry. Do you? If you do could you shed some light on why more than a couple SMEs attempting to enter this sector have upped and moved outside of the country instead of continuing commercialisation here?

Tidyweb · 23-02-2012 2:25pm

I do work in the industry.

Yes no problem.

Just let me know the names of the companies you refered to and Ill let you know why each one of them moved.

wolf99 · 23-02-2012 2:44pm

Well that put paid to my rant (cheers tidywebs

)

I had been referring to projects such as openhydro, wavebob, oceanenergy and aquabouy.

It seems however that all of these projects (according to their websites and wikipedia) are looking pretty healthy, and the Irish market is apparently, contrary to what I previously believed, very conducive in this area.
Which makes me a lot happier! Its great to see that, even though the govt is obviously considering fracking, they have not been sidetracked away from other, IMHO, better, technologies.

I do however note that the two most advanced projects have had to seek additional funding and corporate support outside of Ireland, on in the US and one in France. This is a bit disappointing, if these resources could have been provide within Ireland it would have helped the economy in so many ways, thus making them higher visibility, flagship projects, and effectively pushing other not so good technologies (i.e. carbon fuels) off of the table.

So there is a lot of positive that these are forging ahead, with a small negative that the Ireland economy wont be benefiting 100% due to outside interests

Thank you Tidywebs. Incidentally, do you know of other Irish serious non-traditional energy generation projects? some of them are very interesting...

Tidyweb · 23-02-2012 2:47pm

I am no expert, but due to tidal movements and bay geomtery. Ireland wont have much use for that technology.

France and Canada will - hence the funding

wolf99 · 23-02-2012 3:10pm

Hmm, I could see Canada and France as good spots, but would have thought Ireland would be good as well, Oceanenergy seems to think Ireland is better than anywhere else in EU (http://www.oceanenergy.ie/markets/irish.html)

But that does make more sense funding wise. However that shouldn't have ruled out Irish companies entering these markets in the relevant countries instead of having the companies from those countries reap the benefit of an Irish developed technology, the energy export potential would be very high if there are any suitable sites here. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not knocking it, its great to see it happening at all wherever it is!

Tidyweb · 23-02-2012 3:15pm

Thats wave, I was refering to Tidal.

Either way I get your point.

But money for R&D and risky projects it obviously related to your profits.

tuppence · 29-02-2012 12:27am

Important articles in todays Independent FYI

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tamboran-chief-worked-with-firm-at-centre-of-multimillion-lawsuit-3032918.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/company-behind-7bn-gas-fracking-plan-has-never-used-process-before-3032904.html

IvyTheTerrible · 02-03-2012 8:55am

A European-wide petition against fracking: http://www.petitions24.net/for_a_ban_of_fracking_in_europe_2_en

Geuze · 02-03-2012 11:44am

China has announced huge shale gas reserves:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-01/china-estimates-exploitable-shale-gas-reserves-at-25-08-tcm-1-.html

They plan large investments in exploration and production.

Geuze · 02-03-2012 11:46am

An update on US natural gas prices, now sitting about 2.50 USD per MM Btu:

http://www.oilnergy.com/1gnymex.htm#year

Big falls during the last few years.

TheQ47 · 02-03-2012 12:55pm

Brilliant Dilbert comic strip today.

http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2012-03-02/

Geuze · 04-03-2012 4:50pm

From a US economics wesbite:

"The long-term trend of divergence between crude oil and gas is becoming even sharper. The US should be focused on deploying more natural gas across industries that currently rely on liquid fuels as well as accelerating gas liquification capabilities to develop gas export industries."

Should Irl also do so??

tuppence · 05-03-2012 11:47pm

International news coverage from yesterday

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/03/201234193114340562.html

tuppence · 14-03-2012 6:05pm

Sligo St. Patrick's Day Parade, North West Network will enter a float, and still have room for some volunteers/paraders, including supervised children - parade starts at 12, so would need to group at Mail Coach Road, Sligo at 11.30am, wear black......................Please contact youthmardingo@gmail.com if you are interested in coming along and being part of the grassroots group's campaign to ban fracking in Ireland, Europe and BEYOND.....

Tidyweb · 15-03-2012 11:09am

Clowns.

Hijacking St Patricks Days Parade.

Didnt realise it was a platform for political protests.

Getting children to wave flags, you may even beep the horn of a tractor.

You should try starving a cow to trott along with you, maybe even a malnourished child, a cancer victim etc etc etc.

genie · 15-03-2012 1:34pm

The more floats the merrier. Most of the floats are simply advertisements for local shops and businesses, anyway.

Voodoo_rasher · 21-03-2012 4:21pm

the budding amateur economist geuze kindly tell the rest of us the variables (labels) that are missing from that

graph's vertical and horizontal axis...

That demonstrate what is being measured.

Otherwise, the graph is pointless.

wolf99 · 21-03-2012 4:32pm

At a stab Id say its cost per barrel over time, probably in dollars considering today's WTI oil is $106 and all oil is traded in dollars by order of the UN or WMF or some organisation or another like that.

Gas Fracking

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