Naturism and Irish beaches

normar · 30-06-2005 10:26pm #1

My partner and I enjoy naturism and we regularly go to a number of Irish beaches which are considered naturist tolerant. This tolerant bit is important since there are no official naturist or clothing optional beaches ( or indeed any areas for that matter) in Ireland.
This makes Ireland the only country in Europe without a designated naturist area or beach, and we find that pretty sad and sorry.
Why is this? Is the naked human form still considered shameful, repulsive or offensive in our country? Is it that we Irish are not happy or as comfortable with our bodies as the hundreds of thousands of people - individuals, couples and families, who enjoy naturism in the rest of Europe.
Of course we don't believe this to be the case, but we do sometimes wonder when we are enjoying naturism, naked with the sun and warm wind on our bodies why there are such a tiny few people who have discovered this wonderful experience.
We know for example that there are many Irish who visit and enjoy naturist beaches abroad, but for the life of us we don't know why irish people don't enjoy it at home. And just before you all start to say it's too cold here, that's not true. There are many beautiful warm sunny days in Ireland in which it's a joy to be a naturist.
So what is it about us Irish that we don't seem to enjoy naturism, something which considered so natural and normal in every other country in Europe.
It can't be that the Guards are patrolling the beaches to arrest naturists, because we have walked and swam naked on beaches here often and never had any problem. Other beach users who see us don't faint or collapse at the sight of us. They just go past, sometimes with a nod and sometimes a wave but never belegerant towards us.
So tell us what you think. Why are just a tiny tiny few Irish people practising naturists. We would love to see more out on our beautiful beaches where there is plenty of room for all groups of people.
And finally to those who may have been considering becoming naturists we say do it. You will enjoy it as we do.

Mick and Nora

Mr.Nice Guy · 30-06-2005 10:28pm

normar wrote:

And finally to those who may have been considering becoming naturists we say do it. You will enjoy it as we do.

Will there be boobies?

Gordon · 30-06-2005 10:34pm

Moved from PI.

normar · 30-06-2005 10:35pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Will there be boobies?

Oh Gawd...... Thought you might have more than that to start off with.
But thanks anyway...

Stabshauptmann · 30-06-2005 10:43pm

TBH, Id say it's the fact that the churuch had such a strong presence in Ireland untill recently. While many people now dont practice catholicism or agree with many of the things that were beat into them (I dont mean that in the physical sense) by priests, teachers and the older generation, when a good job has been done indoctinating people its very hard - even once you realise that it was indoctrination - to change.

Thats my opinion anyway. Id say that could be why people are tolerant as you say of naturists but dont feel like taking the plunge themselves.

TBH, I dont know, but thats my 2c for what its worth

the_syco · 30-06-2005 11:57pm

Altavista.com is your friend.

Look, and ye shall find. Shut your eyes, and your true path will walk by you.

http://www.irishnaturist.com/
http://www.esatclear.ie/~irishnaturist/

UNOFFICIAL Naturist locations in Ireland

Brits: http://www.british-naturism.org.uk/

Naturist UK FactFile: http://www.armage.demon.co.uk/nuff/index.html

DrIndy · 01-07-2005 12:17am

too cold for running around in the nip in ireland, you need a warmer climate and that is where they are more popular.

I DO however find it amusing to see people in parks wearing jeans rolled up sunbathing! Shorts anyone?

normar · 01-07-2005 6:13pm

DrIndy wrote:

too cold for running around in the nip in ireland, you need a warmer climate .......

As a couple who enjoy naturism on Irish beaches we can say that it is not always cold in Ireland. Sure it can be cold sometimes but there are also lovely warm days too, for example Sat June 26th to Mon 28th were almost wall to wall sunshine. We went to the west that weekend and had the big beatuiful beach at Trawula in Sligo mostly to ourselves that weekend. Really lovely and peaceful.
So we can't agree that it is the cold that makes the Irish afraid to be naturists at home. Something else is at work on us as a people to make us unable to be naturists at home.
We went to a small town of Erquay in Brittany in France. They had a clothing optional beach there. When we visited the beach the weather although sunny was not especially warm. Yet there were dozens of couples, families and individuals there, including individual women, something that is completely unknown in Ireland. (It seems that Irish women are even more conditioned by our culture to fear the enjoyment of naturism than men are.)
Both the naturist and textile part of the beach got on with enjoying the fun of being at the seaside, without any hassle whatever.
We would love to see naturism being accepted by more people here at home, and to see us Irish coming out of our self imposed shells of shame about our bodies.
It is really wonderful to be with the one you love and especially to be able to walk hand in hand along the sand or swim together, letting the sun and wind dry your bodies. It is what the Summer was made for. Let's enjoy it while we can.

M+N

catholicireland · 11-07-2005 3:40pm

This makes Ireland the only country in Europe without a designated naturist area or beach, and we find that pretty sad and sorry.
Why is this?

I think that the reason for this is it is not very polular here or maby the lack of heat we get.

Is it that we Irish are not happy or as comfortable with our bodies as the hundreds of thousands of people - individuals, couples and families, who enjoy naturism in the rest of Europe.

Well maby they have better weather then us. This is Ireland were talking about here! We might get one chance to go to an Irish beach all year, most people wont want to walk around naked id imagine.

netwhizkid · 14-07-2005 6:45pm

catholicireland's Sig.
88.4% of Irish people are Roman Catholic

Are you a priest by any chance ?

I remember a few years back Jackie Healy Rae, was quizzed about ballybunion beach becoming a nudist beach on the Late Late by Gay Byrne if i remember correctly. Just go nakey in winter no one will notice

normar · 17-07-2005 12:22am

Catholicireland's suggestion that it is the cold weather here that stops us from enjoying naturism here is we believe wrong.
The weather in England, Wales ,Scotland and at times in Northern France is not substantially different from here, yet they have nudist beaches in each of these countries where thousands flock each year to strip naked and enjoy themselves.
The weather here over the past two weeks has been surperb with temperatures between 25 to 30 degrees C. So it's not always cold here in Ireland. It can be warm and sunny over many days and weeks in Ireland.
We agree that naturism seems to be unpopular at home here in Ireland, that is the very basis of the discussion here, but why is it that we alone in Europe think it so? The Irish on holidays abroad dont seem to mind going nude on beaches from what we can gather from talking to people. But why not at home?
Has Catholic Ireland still the hand of repression on us, teaching us that the human body is sinful?
We hope that as a people we would have got over such backward and repressed views.

M+N

simu · 17-07-2005 1:29am

I'd blame the beauty industry for most of the body repression in Ireland these days.

If people want nudist beaches, shure what harum etc.

azezil · 20-07-2005 2:02pm

Just on a, kinda related note. Is Naturism truely an appropriate title for this activity?

If nature intended us to wander around naked wouldn't we be covered in fur or blubber? we're not, so we have to wear clothes to keep warm, thus is it not resonable to say, its not natural?

pork99 · 22-07-2005 1:08am

normar wrote:

We would love to see naturism being accepted by more people here at home, and to see us Irish coming out of our self imposed shells of shame about our bodies.
It is really wonderful to be with the one you love and especially to be able to walk hand in hand along the sand or swim together, letting the sun and wind dry your bodies. It is what the Summer was made for. Let's enjoy it while we can.

M+N

I have on one occassion attempted cheat the weather in order to enjoy unfettered naturism by going au naturel in the Tralee Aqua Dome. Needless to say an unpleasant scene ensued with members of an Garda escorting me off the premises, court appearance, bound over to keep the peace etc. The whole apparatus of this state's repressive prudery was deployed against me.

All I can say is if people don't want their brats to ever see a healthy 19 stone man as God made him they probably should keep their wretched offspring locked in sheds and cellars until they reach the age of 21.

Victor · 22-07-2005 2:16am

azezil wrote:

If nature intended us to wander around naked wouldn't we be covered in fur or blubber? we're not, so we have to wear clothes to keep warm, thus is it not resonable to say, its not natural?

But you were born naked!

normar · 22-07-2005 4:04am

azezil wrote:

If nature intended us to wander around naked wouldn't we be covered in fur or blubber?

No we wouldn't. Nature has made us the way we are...natural and naked. It is as normal and natural for humans to be naked as it is for us to walk, talk, love, live and die.
Broaden your horizons and enjoy what is natural and normal.

simu · 22-07-2005 10:54am

normar wrote:

No we wouldn't. Nature has made us the way we are...natural and naked. It is as normal and natural for humans to be naked as it is for us to walk, talk, love, live and die.
Broaden your horizons and enjoy what is natural and normal.

Meh - it might work at a beach but most of the time, you'd be shivering and covered in scratches and bruises.

Wibbs · 22-07-2005 10:55am

normar wrote:

No we wouldn't. Nature has made us the way we are...natural and naked. It is as normal and natural for humans to be naked as it is for us to walk, talk, love, live and die.
Broaden your horizons and enjoy what is natural and normal.

Well I would partially agree as humans have a layer of subcutaneous fat not found in other primates, possibly an aid to temp control. That said, you could also argue that our early ancestors had more body hair that has lessened considerably since various forms of clothing evolved(hard to prove as fur rarely fossilises).

It's inarguable that clothing is more than just weather protection. A quick browse of human culture bears this out. It identifies people along tribal/social even employment lines. Just saying it's "natural" isn't enough. Nature has also provided us with other activities that most would consider best left private. Should physical love be public? Should birth or death? That would be up to the individual to decide, but as a whole society(not just ours) has certain frameworks to govern these things. Simply asking us to "broaden our horizons" is not enough.

Even if you look at some tribal cultures whom we would consider (almost)naked, you find these societal frameworks in place. One example that springs to mind are some Amazonian cultures where the women walk around naked save for a thin band of leather around the waist that succeeds in covering nothing. To them the removal of that little item of clothing renders the wearer "naked" and open to comment from their peers(at best they are considered sexually available). Similar rules are found among other cultures. Completely naked cultures are alomost unknown. Where they do occur other forms of body adornment take the social place of clothing(tattoos and body art)

Another problem I would have with advocating naturism as a lifestyle are the sexual issues that can arise. While I don't doubt for a moment the good intentions of many who espouse this lifestyle, it sometimes can and does have a more sinister side. It leaves itself open to danger by the very nature of the lifestyle itself.

http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/NudistHallofShame/

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1409056,00.html

Adults choosing to disrobe in pursuit of the "natural" state are one thing. It's when children are involved a certain amount of care must be taken.

The fact is that certain areas of the human body have sexual overtones. Our bodies have evolved that way. To deny this would be inaccurate. As I pointed out before, even in societies where almost complete nudity is the norm, this still holds true. We just happen to have different boundaries, but they are boundaries nonetheless. You mentioned that individual women are less likely to disrobe. Have you ever wondered why? It's not just down to the fashion ideal acting as a brake(though that is part of it). It's just as much down to the fact that a single woman has more to protect sexually than an attached woman and definitely more than a man. I suspect if you had a women only naturist beach it would not be a problem.

In conclusion; while I personally have no moral problem if people want to go about their business naked, to call it a natural state is hardly accurate IMHO. The pyshosexual aspect has also many grey areas that need further discussion.

azezil · 22-07-2005 8:32pm

normar wrote:

No we wouldn't. Nature has made us the way we are...natural and naked. It is as normal and natural for humans to be naked as it is for us to walk, talk, love, live and die.
Broaden your horizons and enjoy what is natural and normal.

thats my point exactly, nature made us this way, we need to cover ourselves in clothes or we'd freeze to death!

The Sweeper · 22-07-2005 9:44pm

I dunno what the naturism buzz is. I also can imagine the scratchiness of briars, the soreness of bare feet etc. Not to mention the cost in sunblock for the exposed bits. What's the big hooo ha about it?

corkonian1 · 23-07-2005 10:33pm

normar wrote:

My partner and I enjoy naturism and we regularly go to a number of Irish beaches which are considered naturist tolerant. This tolerant bit is important since there are no official naturist or clothing optional beaches ( or indeed any areas for that matter) in Ireland.
This makes Ireland the only country in Europe without a designated naturist area or beach, and we find that pretty sad and sorry.
Why is this? Is the naked human form still considered shameful, repulsive or offensive in our country? Is it that we Irish are not happy or as comfortable with our bodies as the hundreds of thousands of people - individuals, couples and families, who enjoy naturism in the rest of Europe.
Of course we don't believe this to be the case, but we do sometimes wonder when we are enjoying naturism, naked with the sun and warm wind on our bodies why there are such a tiny few people who have discovered this wonderful experience.
We know for example that there are many Irish who visit and enjoy naturist beaches abroad, but for the life of us we don't know why irish people don't enjoy it at home. And just before you all start to say it's too cold here, that's not true. There are many beautiful warm sunny days in Ireland in which it's a joy to be a naturist.
So what is it about us Irish that we don't seem to enjoy naturism, something which considered so natural and normal in every other country in Europe.
It can't be that the Guards are patrolling the beaches to arrest naturists, because we have walked and swam naked on beaches here often and never had any problem. Other beach users who see us don't faint or collapse at the sight of us. They just go past, sometimes with a nod and sometimes a wave but never belegerant towards us.
So tell us what you think. Why are just a tiny tiny few Irish people practising naturists. We would love to see more out on our beautiful beaches where there is plenty of room for all groups of people.
And finally to those who may have been considering becoming naturists we say do it. You will enjoy it as we do.

Mick and Nora

Well said, Mick and Nora. I became a "real" naturist when I developed the confidence to be the first to strip off on Irish beaches, i.e. not waiting for others to do it. It is easy to disrobe when there are already a few dozen others in the nude. Up until then, the only time I went naked was on holiday abroad. I absolutely love the freedom of bathing, walking and swimming in the nude. The middle section of Long Strand (West Cork) is my favourite naturist spot. Occasionally, when I disrobe, I am joined by other naturists, possibly "sunshine supporters", but that is perfectably acceptable to me. I have never had a problem from textile walkers, who can see from a long way off that I am in the nip. The only difficulty is that the water on Long Strand is never warm, and swimming is quite dangerous as there is a strong under-tow. Your question: So tell us what you think. Why are just a tiny tiny few Irish people practising naturists is an interesting one. My opinion is that if we were joined in the open on the beach by the the many naturists who remain in the sand dunes, the extent of Irish naturism would be better known, and a case would be easier to make for decriminalising it.
By the way, any time you are down this part of the world, please email me and I will join you for a day out.
Dave.
P.S. to the person who poster the URL above (Wibbs), you do make a valid point about naturism attracting some undesirable people. However, you also say that you would have difficulty advocating it for this reason. Sick child predators are attracted to many organised activities. In recent years these have included the priesthood, swimming clubs, residential childcare institutions, youth and scout organisations, boarding schools, etc. Would you have difficulty in advocating any of these activities? Could you honestly write the following sentence: While I don't doubt for a moment the good intentions of many who espouse swimming, it sometimes can and does have a more sinister side. Please, give us naturists a break.

Wibbs · 24-07-2005 10:09am

corkonian1 wrote:

P.S. to the person who poster the URL above (Wibbs), you do make a valid point about naturism attracting some undesirable people. However, you also say that you would have difficulty advocating it for this reason. Sick child predators are attracted to many organised activities. In recent years these have included the priesthood, swimming clubs, residential childcare institutions, youth and scout organisations, boarding schools, etc. Would you have difficulty in advocating any of these activities?

Fair enough, but you failed to respond to the points about the sexual aspect of the naked human body, which the above activities you mention do not expose in nearly the same way as naturism. A sexual aspect that every culture in the world has restricted public viewing of to some extent or other. As I said, I don't see a problem with nakedness per se, I just find it strange that naturists(generally) wish to deny the sexual aspect and usually resort to saying it's everybody elses hangup.

Could you honestly write the following sentence: While I don't doubt for a moment the good intentions of many who espouse swimming, it sometimes can and does have a more sinister side.

One word; sharks.....

corkonian1 · 24-07-2005 11:55pm

Wibbs, the image of the naked human body is exploited by advertisers, pornographers, and by certain elements of the entertainment industry who push the message that the naked body is a sexual statement. It suits their agenda because there is profit in sex. This view of human nakedness is what makes people fall for the notion that the beauty of our bodies can not be enjoyed in a non-sexual way. However, we are realistic and accept that social nudity must not be practised in a way that confronts or offends. For this reason, you will not find genuine naturists disrobing in the middle of the textile parts of beaches.
As for the "sexual aspect of the naked human body", as you call it, nakedness is not a sign of sexual intent or availability, except when it is accompanied by specific verbal and non-verbal messages. If you say otherwise, how can you account for the tens of thousands of naturists who bathe nude and unmolested in every mainland European country?

normar · 25-07-2005 12:43am

Wibbs wrote:

Another problem I would have with advocating naturism as a lifestyle are the sexual issues that can arise. While I don't doubt for a moment the good intentions of many who espouse this lifestyle, it sometimes can and does have a more sinister side. It leaves itself open to danger by the very nature of the lifestyle itself.

There is hardly an area of life that is not affected by the activities of individuals who prey on others. You will find in religious life, in business, in schools, in sports and unfortunately in family life. By your logic above every area of life has its " more sinister side ", and leaves itself " open to danger by its very nature".

From this point of view it would seem that the only option we have is to wrap up in cotten wool and lock ourselves away from all this danger and sinisterism.
Well we reject this view of life, because we believe in the basic goodness of people and try live our lives according to this ideal. Naturists are not stupid people and we are very mindful of the ugly minority who would seek to abuse in each and every walk of life. We would no more advocate that people should shun religion or sports because of abuse recorded in these areas than we would advocate people to stop driving because of the dangers of drunk drivers.

You mentioned that individual women are less likely to disrobe.

No we did not mention that at all. Indeed far from it.
What we did ask was why it is almost unknown in Ireland for an individual single woman to be nude on an Irish naturist tolerated beach, while in other countries we visited it is a common sight to see individual women enjoying naturism by themselves. That was the question we asked.

You go on to say..

It's not just down to the fashion ideal acting as a brake(though that is part of it). It's just as much down to the fact that a single woman has more to protect sexually than an attached woman and definitely more than a man.

We have no wish to sound offensive far from it, but we simply don't understand what you are talking about here.

And finally in your last post you state...

....the sexual aspect of the naked human body, which the above activities you mention do not expose in nearly the same way as naturism. A sexual aspect that every culture in the world has restricted public viewing of to some extent or other

Naturism is not about sexual acts, or public sexual viewing. To imply this is a gross distortion of what naturism is really about, and we reject this view totally.

Naturism has at its core value respect for the individual and individual freedom, respect for the human body, respect for the envoronment, and a desire to practice that freedom and respect in a common community of likeminded people.
Naturists do not wish to cause offence to anyone. We do respect ourselves and are comfortable with our bodies, and do not feel in any way that the naked human body is shameful or offensive.
What we do seek is recognised areas where naturism can be practiced without the fear of facing criminal prosecution for simply enjoying the experience of having the sun and wind warm you body.

Finally... while the Irish weather can be ****e a lot of the time it is not always "freezing cold". Sometimes it can be warm and sunny and very enjoyable for us naturists.

Wibbs · 25-07-2005 10:20am

corkonian1 wrote:

Wibbs, the image of the naked human body is exploited by advertisers, pornographers, and by certain elements of the entertainment industry who push the message that the naked body is a sexual statement. It suits their agenda because there is profit in sex.

No argument there, profit in sex wise. However they push that message simply because there is currency in the fact that the naked body has a sexual message.

This view of human nakedness is what makes people fall for the notion that the beauty of our bodies can not be enjoyed in a non-sexual way.

If you can enjoy the beauty of the naked form in a non sexual way fair play. That must take some doing given all the advertisers and pornographers.

However, we are realistic and accept that social nudity must not be practised in a way that confronts or offends. For this reason, you will not find genuine naturists disrobing in the middle of the textile parts of beaches.

Again fair enough. BTW I love the jargon. I find now that I'm a practising textilist.

As for the "sexual aspect of the naked human body", as you call it, nakedness is not a sign of sexual intent or availability, except when it is accompanied by specific verbal and non-verbal messages.

It's not just as I "call it", it's simple biology. People spend billions on clothes that accentuate the body and promise the allure of what lies beneath in a sexual way. It may not be overt, but it's there. No question. The very "design" of the human body advertises sexual health and attractiveness. We give off sexual signals with our bodies all the time. The fully naked body is among the strongest sexual signals there is. It's built in at a very primal level. A naked body, whichever way you choose to look at it has overtones beyond pure skin.

normar wrote:

There is hardly an area of life that is not affected by the activities of individuals who prey on others. You will find in religious life, in business, in schools, in sports and unfortunately in family life. By your logic above every area of life has its " more sinister side ", and leaves itself " open to danger by its very nature".

No, I'm afraid it doesn't. As I've pointed out before, none of the above areas of life expose the naked body with all it's conotations. I'm sorry but if walked into an office or a church full of naked people I think questions would be raised. If I had a kid in school and it was suggested that they do their classes in the nip, more than questions would be raised.

Quote:
It's not just down to the fashion ideal acting as a brake(though that is part of it). It's just as much down to the fact that a single woman has more to protect sexually than an attached woman and definitely more than a man.

We have no wish to sound offensive far from it, but we simply don't understand what you are talking about here.

No offense taken. Simple example. In a night club, who's more likely to get sexual attention? A single woman, a woman with a man or a man? A single woman is way more popular than the other groups(unless you're Brad Pitt:))

Naturists do not wish to cause offence to anyone. We do respect ourselves and are comfortable with our bodies, and do not feel in any way that the naked human body is shameful or offensive.

Neither do I, but at least I can admit that the naked human body is more than just skin, with no sexual meaning.

What we do seek is recognised areas where naturism can be practiced without the fear of facing criminal prosecution for simply enjoying the experience of having the sun and wind warm you body.

Well I'm certainly not advocating criminal prosecution. Far from it. I'm simply fascinated that you can't see why there could be problems with your lifestyle by the very nature of it.

Victor · 25-07-2005 9:33pm

Wibbs wrote:

No argument there, profit in sex wise. However they push that message simply because there is currency in the fact that the naked body has a sexual message.

Can have a sexual message. Are you saying the 15 other naked lads in the changing room showers are giving you sexual messages?

But more crudely, next time you have sex, picture Margaret Thatcher naked. Not very sexy, eh?

Wibbs · 26-07-2005 9:55am

Victor wrote:

Can have a sexual message. Are you saying the 15 other naked lads in the changing room showers are giving you sexual messages?

Maybe some are. Big mad ride that I am...

Yes I should have said can and it obviously depends on context. I was just making the point that there is a bit of a difference between the activities that were compared to naturism (religious life, business, schools, sports) where such messages are way less overt.

I'm also trying to get a handle on the naturist idea that fully naked humans walking around in public can be thought of as natural, when 99% of human cultures would disagree.

Cheers Victor, for the maggie thatcher image. My therapists bill will wend it's way to you in due course.......

normar · 27-07-2005 11:52pm

Wibbs wrote:

I'm also trying to get a handle on the naturist idea that fully naked humans walking around in public can be thought of as natural, when 99% of human cultures would disagree.

We think you see your difficulty with naturism. It seems to us you equate the naked human form with that of sexual arousal, of giving off sexual signals, of opening to view that which, to you it would seem, should not be seen and of having something sexual to loose ( if you are a single girl).
Well Wibbs its an opinion. For us we choose not to share this " sexual conotation " which you put on the naked human body.
You say "The fully naked body is among the strongest sexual signals there is".
This is wrong. Whether it is sexual depends on the context. In a naturist context what you say is not true.
You can keep saying it if you like, but just repeating it still won't make it true.
Pornographers will do what they like but it is naturists which actually expose (forgive the pun) the lie of the pornographer.
Wibbs says....

I'm also trying to get a handle on the naturist idea that fully naked humans walking around in public can be thought of as natural, when 99% of human cultures would disagree....

and.....

In a night club, who's more likely to get sexual attention? A single woman, a woman with a man or a man? A single woman is way more popular than the other groups......

Wibbs you are wrong. Naturist do not seek to walk naked in public and we never have. You wrongly and deleberatly equate a naturist woman with that of people in a nightclub seeking sexual attention. You are wrong and your position not only distorts what naturism is about, but you are degradeing to women. You can't seem to get by this idea of yours that a naked woman is someone pouting about in a sexual way. God that is such a narrow narrow viewpoint. The pornographers really got their message to you. We suppose you will keep repeating that being naked is sexual and consequently dangerous.
We however are glad that hundreds of thousands of people all across Europe and millions across the world disagree with you as we do.
So lets get back to discussing what naturism can do for people, The hugh feeling of self worth and confidence it can give to those who practice it, and the real genuine friends you can meet as a naturist, just as in other areas of life.

Come on good people discover the joys and benefits of naturism.

Wibbs · 28-07-2005 11:24am

normar wrote:

We think you see your difficulty with naturism. It seems to us you equate the naked human form with that of sexual arousal, of giving off sexual signals, of opening to view that which, to you it would seem, should not be seen and of having something sexual to loose ( if you are a single girl).

No. The difficulty I have is that you seem to deny the sexual context(not just single women either)
.

Well Wibbs its an opinion. For us we choose not to share this " sexual conotation " which you put on the naked human body.

You may think it's just my opinion but it's an opinion shared by every human culture out there. It's not just me that "puts" this sexual connotation on the naked human body. Nature and culture do it quite well.

You say "The fully naked body is among the strongest sexual signals there is".
This is wrong. Whether it is sexual depends on the context.

I'm not denying context plays a part. I'm simply saying that naturism is more likely to be vulnerable, because of the nakedness.

In a naturist context what you say is not true.

Maybe, but lets just say it's more likely to be true than in a mountaineering club.

You can keep saying it if you like, but just repeating it still won't make it true.

In fairness, we may both be accused equally guilty of that.

Wibbs you are wrong. Naturist do not seek to walk naked in public and we never have.

Then where are you walking naked, at home? A beach is a public area.

You wrongly and deleberatly equate a naturist woman with that of people in a nightclub seeking sexual attention.

No I didn't. I gave you an example when you asked for further explanation of a point in one of my previous posts.

You are wrong and your position not only distorts what naturism is about, but you are degradeing to women. You can't seem to get by this idea of yours that a naked woman is someone pouting about in a sexual way.

For a start I didn't just single out women. I just suggested that there may be more reticence on part of a single woman to disrobe in public. If you want to consider me degrading to women, fine. I would suggest my viewpoint is in fact more degrading to men as they would be the ones more likely to make a woman feel uncomfortable.

God that is such a narrow narrow viewpoint. The pornographers really got their message to you.

The evil pornographers. Yes that must be it. :rolleyes:

We suppose you will keep repeating that being naked is sexual and consequently dangerous.

I suppose you will continue to repeat the mantra that naturism is a natural thing with no sexual overtones possible. BTW you haven't given any further response as to why naturism is so "natural".

We however are glad that hundreds of thousands of people all across Europe and millions across the world disagree with you as we do.

I'd be surprised if it was anything like hundreds of thousands worldwide who practise naturism, no mind millions.

Come on good people discover the joys and benefits of naturism.

I must say that there's an almost evangelical tone to your posts. Certainly more than you may find in other club activities outside the spiritual. Fair enough, maybe it's the old hippy "free yourselves and go back to nature" buzz that's in naturism that doesn't sit easily with me. Maybe It's my inherent suspicion of that mindset that precludes me from seeing your point. Then again maybe it's your recent statement that I'm a pornography addled degrader of women that rankles. :rolleyes:

PS Victor, that image of maggie thatcher in the nip has given me nightmares. A trip to the PI forum may be warranted.

Catsmokinpot · 28-07-2005 7:28pm

tis fairly cold in ireland to be goin in the nip isnt it?

normar · 28-07-2005 9:47pm

Catsmokinpot wrote:

tis fairly cold in ireland to be goin in the nip isnt it?

Sure, it can be cold much of the time, but in Summer it can be sometimes beautiful, and there's nothing nicer than a naked swim in the sea on a warm day.

normar · 28-07-2005 10:10pm

Wibbs wrote:

Then where are you walking naked, at home? A beach is a public area.

Ok Wibbs, we will explain this slowly for you.

Natuists look for designated clothing optional beaches as places where people can enjoy naturism. These areas would be clearly indicated as areas where naked people may be encountered.
In this way people who may be offended by the sight of a naked human (though why is beyond us) would thus be aware of this possibility and exercise an option to proceed or not. It would be their choice.
This is a legal designated public area, and is totally different to what you mean by a "public area".

But then we know that, and the rest of the readers know it as well. We cant keep you from distorting the views of naturists, we can just keep on telling people that it is a lovely way to spend a bit of time on a fine summer's day. At peace with yourself. What's that we hear...you disagree!!!.....

Wibbs · 29-07-2005 4:34pm

normar wrote:

Ok Wibbs, we will explain this slowly for you.

How very gracious of you. :rolleyes:

In this way people who may be offended by the sight of a naked human (though why is beyond us)

Offense would not be my personal response, more along the lines of bemusement TBH. In any case most I've seen disrobe in public would be least advised to do so...

But then we know that, and the rest of the readers know it as well. We cant keep you from distorting the views of naturists,

To be fair I didn't "distort the views of naturists" as you would have it. I simply questioned some aspects of it. Most of which you didn't address.

What's that we hear...you disagree!!!.....

Only with your arguments, not nakedness itself.

normar · 29-07-2005 10:13pm

Wibbs wrote:

Only with your arguments, not nakedness itself.

At last. Good to see you coming around to the viewpoint.

M+N

Earnest · 29-07-2005 11:39pm

Wibbs wrote:

Well I would partially agree as humans have a layer of subcutaneous fat not found in other primates, possibly an aid to temp control. That said, you could also argue that our early ancestors had more body hair that has lessened considerably since various forms of clothing evolved(hard to prove as fur rarely fossilises).

...

Even if you look at some tribal cultures whom we would consider (almost)naked, you find these societal frameworks in place. One example that springs to mind are some Amazonian cultures where the women walk around naked save for a thin band of leather around the waist that succeeds in covering nothing. To them the removal of that little item of clothing renders the wearer "naked" and open to comment from their peers(at best they are considered sexually available). Similar rules are found among other cultures. Completely naked cultures are alomost unknown. Where they do occur other forms of body adornment take the social place of clothing(tattoos and body art)

...

It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. How come the people who do walk around almost naked (in parts of Africa and New Guinea as well as the Amazon) have no more body hair than those whose ancestors wore clothes. (Well, actually, the Amazonians' ancestors probably wore clothes when they were crossing the Bering Strait from Asia, but this point doesn't apply to Africa or New Guinea.)

Actually, I don't think there's any likelihood that our quantity of body hair has changed since clothes were invented (probably within the last 50,000 years). There are various views about how we lost our body hair, but it probably goes back a million years or more.

corkonian1 · 30-07-2005 1:56am

Wibbs, I think that your argumentative style lacks the maturity to discuss the issues raised my Normar. You quote vague generalisations as if they are facts. You dismiss substantive points without addressing them. All in all, your writing sounds like that of a dilletante, rather than somebody who wants to use this message board responsibly.

eth0_ · 30-07-2005 2:10am

Are you sure there are no official naturist beaches in Ireland?
There's one just before Killiney, and you can see EVERYTHING when you go past on the DART as they're right beside the line, lying on the cliffs...it's not very nice!

I don't have a problem with naturist beaches - as long as it's avoidable and not waved in my face, so to speak.

The Clown Man · 30-07-2005 2:39am

I have to say I do like shoes. Jesus, where would we all be without shoes?!

normar wrote:

Come on good people discover the joys and benefits of naturism.

And, I'm not all that sure about all this naturist pimping.

A joke's a joke but you actually are trying to get us all nekkid aren't you...

And...

People aren't looking at you funny...*

* Note to self: The naturist approach allows one to actively and openly try to get people nekkid without the usual cynicism that follows other such approaches.

The Clown Man · 30-07-2005 2:44am

Are there, like, membership cards or something to prove you're a fully fledged naturist?

Can you show me the basic design? Are they easily forged? Just out of curiosity...

Would they work in, say, Club M?

jd · 30-07-2005 2:53am

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

What's the big hooo ha about it?

I guess it's much more comfortable.
For some reason I remembered this..

My bag is heavy
My Pants are tight
My balls are swinging from left to right..
left..left..left,right,left..

ahem..
/me hides

Wibbs · 30-07-2005 10:22am

Earnest wrote:

It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. How come the people who do walk around almost naked (in parts of Africa and New Guinea as well as the Amazon) have no more body hair than those whose ancestors wore clothes...../.... since clothes were invented (probably within the last 50,000 years). There are various views about how we lost our body hair, but it probably goes back a million years or more.

I don't see how I'm contradicting myself TBH.

In any event I would suggest clothing has been around for a lot longer than 50,000 yrs. Neandertals lived in Europe for 200,000 yrs through successive ice ages. They certainly had clothing. There's even some(admittedly scant) evidence that Homo Erectus had some form of clothing and that takes us back into the millions of years range. We ourselves, as a species are around for at least 100,000 yrs, so 50,000 years is a bit too recent a date for clothing.

corkonian1 wrote:

Wibbs, I think that your argumentative style lacks the maturity to discuss the issues raised my Normar.

Ooh the mature card this early.

You quote vague generalisations as if they are facts. You dismiss substantive points without addressing them.

As does Normar. Actually I haven't seen any "facts" from Normar at all. His entire argument seems to be "Come join us and be naturists". Neither of you explained why naturism is so healthy, natural and so good for you, beyond the fact that you appear to enjoy it. Hell, I enjoy fishing but I wouldn't get this sensitive and defensive about it, if others disagreed

All in all, your writing sounds like that of a dilletante, rather than somebody who wants to use this message board responsibly.

So not only am I a pornography addled degrader of women, I'm a dilettante as well(btw 1 L 2 T's. I'm petty to boot

).

normar · 31-07-2005 7:18pm

Wibbs wrote:

Neither of you explained why naturism is so healthy, natural and so good for you, beyond the fact that you appear to enjoy it.

The reason why naturists say nakedness is healthy is because we are born naked. We are born naturally naked, nude if you like. There are no clothes on our bodies when we come into this world,.. no three pice suits,.. no Armani designed threads, we are in fact really and naturally naked. As we understand this nature thing it has made the human body naturally naked so we take it that being naked is natural, and what is natural is good we believe anyway.
We Naturists just want to enjoy being naked as nature made us. We want to be naked within accepted naturist areas, and enjoy the feeling of being naked, natural and normal. It is wonderful to have the sun and the warm wind on your body... feels so good and natural. And we would love to have more people realise this.
Naked bodies are naturally normal. It is we believe only narrow mindedness which seeks to make the human body shameful or dirty, and we will always refute this.
So once again we say come on people and enjoy naturism.

M+N

Wibbs · 31-07-2005 9:07pm

normar wrote:

The reason why naturists say nakedness is healthy is because we are born naked. We are born naturally naked, nude if you like. There are no clothes on our bodies when we come into this world,.. no three pice suits,.. no Armani designed threads, we are in fact really and naturally naked.

We are also born helpless, toothless and covered in mucus and blood, what's your point? Do you cut your hair, shave your beard, trim your nails? the natural state of both would be long. Do you brush your teeth, do you wear glasses? All unnatural acts. Is it the social aspects of clothing that concern you? The hippy philosophy rears it's head methinks, if that's the case.

As we understand this nature thing it has made the human body naturally naked so we take it that being naked is natural, and what is natural is good we believe anyway.

There's lots of natural poisons out there. Do you ingest them? Of course you don't. Natural isn't always "good"

We Naturists just want to enjoy being naked as nature made us. We want to be naked within accepted naturist areas, and enjoy the feeling of being naked, natural and normal. It is wonderful to have the sun and the warm wind on your body... feels so good and natural. And we would love to have more people realise this. Naked bodies are naturally normal.

Repeating the word natural and nature does not an argument make. Especially when I've made the point that your philosophy of total nudity would not be shared by any other culture, even those in what some would call the sparsely clothed "natural" state.

It is we believe only narrow mindedness which seeks to make the human body shameful or dirty, and we will always refute this.

As will I. I never said the human body was shameful or dirty. I only questioned your concept that naturism was like any other activity. No more or less sexually loaded or open to abuse than someone like a person who enjoys golf in a club atmosphere. Obviously there are differences. Sticking one's finger in ones ears and humming "cum by ya, naked is natural, tra la la" is not likely to change that. Full nakedness(and the promotion of same) carries a loaded social message. That message may vary with context certainly, but that message is still there.

So once again we say come on people and enjoy naturism.

This is starting to sound suspiciously like a "lifestyle".

athena 2000 · 31-07-2005 11:04pm

Wibbs wrote:

I'm also trying to get a handle on the naturist idea that fully naked humans walking around in public can be thought of as natural, when 99% of human cultures would disagree.

I have come to the conclusion that most of us are Existextilists and that textilism rules! Most of you would probably agree if you've ever seen a 50+ year old human male on vacation at a German camping ground playing badminton nude except for his black socks and sandals....lol, true story.

normar · 01-08-2005 7:54pm

athena 2000 wrote:

Most of you would probably agree if you've ever seen a 50+ year old human male on vacation at a German camping ground playing badminton nude except for his black socks and sandals....lol, QUOTE].

Why can't we let people live their lives as they enjoy them? What is so wrong about a 50 plus male in Germany (or any other nationality for that matter) playing badminton in the nude that you see fit to "laugh out loud" at them. By what standard or by what right do you feel that you are able to judge people in this way.
Please Athena 2000, this post smacks of ageism, sexism and racism. I'm sure that it was meant just to be flippant but it comes across as quite sneering.

What naturists in Ireland seek are legally designated clothing optional areas where they can practice and enjoy the pleasure of being naked in company with other tolerant people and groups. It is not much to ask that this be granted by the Government, and represents just another aspect of human freedom of expression.
We are beginning to think that our more accepting and open attituide to human nakedness is very much in a minority. Regrettably we now beginning to see why more people are afraid or reluctant to be naturists at home in Ireland.
What a pity. We thought that as a nation we had grown to be more mature and accepting of human differences and individual choices, but it seems that we (as naturists) still have an uphill struggle.
But we are spirited people and will continue to support the rights of naturists in Ireland, because we enjoy it so much.

normar · 01-08-2005 8:09pm

Wibbs wrote:

I've made the point that your philosophy of total nudity would not be shared by any other culture, even those in what some would call the sparsely clothed "natural" state.

We grow weary or your distortions of what naturism is about.

What naturists in Ireland seek are legally designated clothing optional areas where they can practice and enjoy the pleasure of being naked in company with other tolerant people and groups. It is not much to ask that this be granted by the Government, and represents just another aspect of human freedom of expression

If you have difficulty with this then that's ok.... naturism is not for everyone.
We will leave it at that and agree to differ with you.

We will continue however to promote for the right to choose to be naked in a non offensive and socially accepted environment.

athena 2000 · 02-08-2005 2:10am

normar wrote:

What is so wrong about a 50 plus male in Germany (or any other nationality for that matter) playing badminton in the nude that you see fit to "laugh out loud" at them. By what standard or by what right do you feel that you are able to judge people in this way.

The camping ground was not a "clothing optional" location. Hence my appropriated right to make a comment and to have a giggle over it.

normar wrote:

Please Athena 2000, this post smacks of ageism, sexism and racism. I'm sure that it was meant just to be flippant but it comes across as quite sneering.

Yes, my comment was flippant, and meant to be flippant. There would be absolutely no doubt in your mind if I had intended to sneer. Don't assume the worst!

Wibbs · 02-08-2005 9:20am

normar wrote:

Why can't we let people live their lives as they enjoy them? What is so wrong about a 50 plus male in Germany (or any other nationality for that matter) playing badminton in the nude that you see fit to "laugh out loud" at them. By what standard or by what right do you feel that you are able to judge people in this way.
Please Athena 2000, this post smacks of ageism, sexism and racism. I'm sure that it was meant just to be flippant but it comes across as quite sneering.

Ageism, sexism and racism? Jeez it's a bit early for 'isms, don't you think? For a start where is the sexism? I'm sure if the person in question was a woman, the reaction would have been the same. Ageism possibly :rolleyes: , but the racism is your silly assumption alone. The "race" card. How very mature. Athena 2000 never mentioned the man's nationality. He could have been from Wicklow for all you know.

BTW. I do find it funny that although the guy was naked the only clothing he was wearing was a major fashion no no. Sandals and socks. Now I'm LOL

normar · 02-08-2005 3:17pm

athena 2000 wrote:

The camping ground was not a "clothing optional" location. Hence my appropriated right to make a comment and to have a giggle over it.

This is just a load of superior snobbery.

This is a discussion on naturistism thread, why can't you at least offer a story about what you may have seen on or in a naturist designated area instead of using what you would consider some fool to make a point against naturism.

If you want to laugh and giggle at other people then please get your own thread, ( you could call it the sniggering at other people thread) and leave this one to a discussion on naturism.

corkonian1 · 03-08-2005 1:03am

normar wrote:

This is just a load of superior snobbery.

This is a discussion on naturistism thread, why can't you at least offer a story about what you may have seen on or in a naturist designated area instead of using what you would consider some fool to make a point against naturism.

If you want to laugh and giggle at other people then please get your own thread, ( you could call it the sniggering at other people thread) and leave this one to a discussion on naturism.

Am I spending too much time in the company of other naturists? Have I grown too accustomed to having conversations free of pretence, malice, and pettiness? Do I need to spend more time with "ordinary" people, and get used to their inflated egos, arrogance, and neurotic insecurities? Nahhh. Only kidding. Not all textiles are like the resident expert on just about everything from anthropology to psychosexuality and all things in between. :rolleyes:
Once again I say Well Done to Mick and Nora for bringing up this subject in a forum as accessible as this.
I doubt that the anti-naturist comments in this thread are broadly representative of textile Ireland. County Councils, Gardai, coastal land owners, and other commentators in the media have mostly adopted a "live and let live" attitude. There is something unwholesome, almost sleazy, about some of the anti-naturist comments in this thread. I suspect that the sad people who harrass naturist women and men are on the same wave length as those who speak against it.
I look forward to the day when every coastal region in Ireland has its share of attractive beaches where we may bathe nude, and enjoy the experience without having to answer to village idiots on the net.

Wibbs · 03-08-2005 10:38am

corkonian1 wrote:

Am I spending too much time in the company of other naturists? Have I grown too accustomed to having conversations free of pretence, malice, and pettiness? Do I need to spend more time with "ordinary" people, and get used to their inflated egos, arrogance, and neurotic insecurities? Nahhh. Only kidding.

You must live in a very happy place indeed. I hear the sound of drums being arythmically banged by new agers among the green trees......

Not all textiles are like the resident expert on just about everything from anthropology to psychosexuality and all things in between. :rolleyes:

Well being a pornography addled women degrading dilettante takes some work. I'm gratified to find myself an expert as well. Do I get a certificate?

I doubt that the anti-naturist comments in this thread are broadly representative of textile Ireland.

Textile Ireland.

This gets better and better.

County Councils, Gardai, coastal land owners, and other commentators in the media have mostly adopted a "live and let live" attitude.

As do I, it's the naturists that seem to go on the defensive, if some "comments" are anything to go by.

There is something unwholesome, almost sleazy, about some of the anti-naturist comments in this thread. I suspect that the sad people who harrass naturist women and men are on the same wave length as those who speak against it.

Sleazy, unwholesome and an harrasser now? The list goes on and on.

I look forward to the day when every coastal region in Ireland has its share of attractive beaches where we may bathe nude, and enjoy the experience without having to answer to village idiots on the net.

Now it seems I can add villiage idiot to my list of qualifications. My cup truely overfloweth with compliments.

FYI Lists of insults do not an argument make. You may find this information useful in life. Take it and use it with my compliments.

The way pollution is going the attractive beaches bit is to be hoped for anyway.

Naturism and Irish beaches

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