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United States of Europe...is it time?

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245

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    #32
    Firblog
    Registered Users Posts: 1,979 ✭✭✭Firblog


    EmmetSpiceland wrote: »
    It’s high time that model was scrapped a new, sturdier and more robust system of central governance was installed in Europe.

    Kinda giving the game away with the use of that one word, and who is going to 'install' this more 'robust' central government? Those in the upper echelons of European politics/business/civil service? Whether the plebs want it or not?

    Wouldn't be the first time would it?


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    #33
    8-10
    Registered Users Posts: 13,328 ✭✭✭✭8-10


    EmmetSpiceland wrote: »
    Ireland should not shy away from such a noble cause

    The worry to me in what you're saying is that we would be looking at a hard border with the North, as it's clear that the UK would not join


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    #34
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,728 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Just a reminder for the people blaming the EU in the current crisis.

    https://twitter.com/bbckatyaadler/status/1244896254754271233?s=21


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    #35
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,661 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    EmmetSpiceland wrote: »
    With the country staring down the “barrel” of, yet another, deep recession and the talk of the EU willing to “consolidate” the debts incurred by this, current, crisis, if the Germans agree, into a single “burden” paid back by all, should we be looking to cast off the tattered cloak of, petty, nationalism and embrace a, federal, United States of Europe?


    Smells like you’re suggesting Ireland participate in taking collective responsibility for something ‘we’ had no hand in, but go on...

    EmmetSpiceland wrote: »
    We’ve had almost a century of self governance, and in that time we’ve managed to hand our children over for abuse, and neglect, to the Church, we have been robbed blind by our “leaders”, we have bankrupted the country through mismanagement, ineptitude and greed, and we continue to blindly walk our future generations into an “ecological” disaster.


    ‘We’ did none of those things...

    EmmetSpiceland wrote: »
    By signing up to a, proper, European “superstate” we would find ourselves, largely, free from the “burdens” that have been holding us back for so long. Our non-existent, and laughable, neutrality would be gone overnight. Our armies would be co-opted into a, larger, European “armed service”. This would provide us a proper military wing.


    Our neutrality has been a burden? We have a solid reputation as UN peacekeepers. You want Ireland to become part of a larger “armed service”, to do what exactly?

    EmmetSpiceland wrote: »
    And while we would still have the ability to govern our own “state” we would be under the watchful eye of the central government of Europe.


    I’m beginning to think you’re on a wind-up. Either that or you aren’t aware that we are already under the watchful eye of a central government of Europe through a number of International bodies.

    EmmetSpiceland wrote: »
    Don’t get me wrong, I’d be proud of my country, and our flag, as the next guy. Would still sing the soccer “anthem” at Lansdowne Road during the Six Nations, but it’s time for us to “grow up” and accept that Ireland needs to be sitting up at the table with the “big boys” and not cowering somewhere between the brits and yanks.


    It’s that sort of nonsense rhetoric got us into the Eurozone in the first place. Now we effectively can’t leave as our currency wouldn’t be worth shìt.

    EmmetSpiceland wrote: »
    And now seems like it could well be the perfect time for all EU states to come together, and move “forward”, as one. Together.


    We’re sinking “as one” already, there is no “moving forward” when global economies are barely treading water. Ireland in particular are up shìt creek without a paddle given we’re being pulled between the whims of the US and European countries foreign policy decisions already. “Sitting at the table with the big boys”?

    You’re having a laugh, surely! :pac:


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    #36
    Rodney Bathgate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭Rodney Bathgate


    Nice try, Ursula. Now jog on.


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    #37
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    The general idea of globalism, and the EU, is to centralise power.
    The idea of nationalism is for each country to make its own decisions, and form voluntary partnerships around issues like trade and climate.

    To force nation states to join together was tried in Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, both now failed.

    The reason it appears to still be working in China is because their oppressive regime, a solution I'd prefer not to have in Europe, no matter how appealing it may seem to some.


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    #38
    paw patrol
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭paw patrol


    Duke of Url wrote: »
    MEPs are elected

    most MEPs are powerless tbh
    Deleted User wrote: »
    MEPs are elected and Commissioners are appointed by governments (which are also elected)


    Don't like your MEP? vote for a different one.
    Don't like your commissioner? Vote in a different government party


    How is this undemocratic. In fact it is more that Ireland, which is undergoing it's undemocratic election of a Senate right now

    that's sh1te.

    We are argue on policy but political appointments rarely make it to the fore.
    Some of these appointments aren't even known to be up for grabs at election .

    it's not practical to discuss this at election time. Its' an unknown

    Who knew when voting in FG to punish FF that Enda would send Phil Hogan to the EU? A punishment on us all.


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    #39
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    How our friends at EU operate
    First they pretend to help, and don't.
    Then they kick you when you're down.
    Responding to criticism that the EU has been slow to help, president of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen made a speech on Wednesday, claiming Brussels will stand with Italy.

    However, in the midst of what has been dubbed the worst health and economic crisis of our generation, the European Court of Justice – the body that has the task of ensuring compliance with European law – fined the boot-shaped country £6.8million for not having fully recovered the state aid granted to the Sardinian hotel sector in 2008.
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1255171/eu-news-italy-coronavirus-deaths-cases-euro-eurozone-stocks-spt


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    #40
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,373 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Once we can have an electoral college the same as the US to ensure that small states like Ireland are not neglected at the whim of larger/more populous ones, and states can set their own taxes like in the US then I'm all for it.


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    #41
    JPCN1
    Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭JPCN1


    EmmetSpiceland wrote: »
    With the country staring down the “barrel” of, yet another, deep recession and the talk of the EU willing to “consolidate” the debts incurred by this, current, crisis, if the Germans agree, into a single “burden” paid back by all, should we be looking to cast off the tattered cloak of, petty, nationalism and embrace a, federal, United States of Europe?

    We’ve had almost a century of self governance, and in that time we’ve managed to hand our children over for abuse, and neglect, to the Church, we have been robbed blind by our “leaders”, we have bankrupted the country through mismanagement, ineptitude and greed, and we continue to blindly walk our future generations into an “ecological” disaster.

    By signing up to a, proper, European “superstate” we would find ourselves, largely, free from the “burdens” that have been holding us back for so long. Our non-existent, and laughable, neutrality would be gone overnight. Our armies would be co-opted into a, larger, European “armed service”. This would provide us a proper military wing.

    And while we would still have the ability to govern our own “state” we would be under the watchful eye of the central government of Europe.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’d be proud of my country, and our flag, as the next guy. Would still sing the soccer “anthem” at Lansdowne Road during the Six Nations, but it’s time for us to “grow up” and accept that Ireland needs to be sitting up at the table with the “big boys” and not cowering somewhere between the brits and yanks.

    And now seems like it could well be the perfect time for all EU states to come together, and move “forward”, as one. Together.

    You really don't sound proud of your country. And no. Way.


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    #42
    JohnnyFlash
    Registered Users Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭JohnnyFlash


    I'd be in favour of a much stronger EU following this crisis. There's huge opportunity for a centralised budget process, harmonised tax rates, strategic investment in pan-European infrastructure, a more streamlined approach to agricultural policy, and a myriad of other opportunities for closer harmonisation. It would also be a bulwark against the worrying rise of nationalism across Europe.


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    #43
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    There's huge opportunity for a centralised budget process, harmonised tax rates, strategic investment in pan-European infrastructure, a more streamlined approach to agricultural policy, and a myriad of other opportunities for closer harmonisation.
    There is nothing you said there that didn't mean anything other than "we should all be the same".
    Don't you like diversity?


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    #44
    JohnnyFlash
    Registered Users Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭JohnnyFlash


    biko wrote: »
    There is nothing you said there that didn't mean anything other than "we should all be the same".
    Don't you like diversity?


    Ireland would still be Ireland. We'd just be part of a much stronger fiscal and political union that would be able to make Europe a stronger player when it comes to taking part in the world stage. A pan-European approach to healthcare for example would allow us to leverage upon a single approach to procurement, purchasing, and delivery of health services.



    I never got this de Valera view of the world - sure aren't we poor but free to be poor together. Nationalism is fine when it comes to singing out the anthem at a soccer match; it doesn't serve countries well when they indulge in it and ignore the bigger picture.


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    #45
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    No thanks.

    The United States of America is a union of states with the same language, history, culture, politics and outlook, more or less.

    Europe is an entirely different proposition.

    If anything i'd like to see the EU scale back considerably.


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    #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    Ireland would still be Ireland. We'd just be part of a much stronger fiscal and political union that would be able to make Europe a stronger player when it comes to taking part in the world stage. A pan-European approach to healthcare for example would allow us to leverage upon a single approach to procurement, purchasing, and delivery of health services.



    I never got this de Valera view of the world - sure aren't we poor but free to be poor together. Nationalism is fine when it comes to singing out the anthem at a soccer match; it doesn't serve countries well when they indulge in it and ignore the bigger picture.

    Surely america is an advertisement againest closer political.union??

    How can those living in bussels have any hope of ruling fairly over those living in roscommon and vice versa....

    .even spain a mini version of the eu,with several mini-states/cultures made into one is barely holding together and had to baton-charge people off streets there recently enough....

    of which the EU was completly silent on...how can anyone honestly hope for such a superstate not to become just a neo-lib version of north korea to disent??


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    #47
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    It's far from Donegal to Brussels.

    But it's much farther from Brussels to Donegal..


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    #48
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    David Sassoli #notmypresident
    Charles Michel#notmypresident
    Ursula von der Leyen #notmypresident
    Michael D Higgins #mypresident


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    #49
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,981 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Rodney Bathgate wrote: »
    One of the first things that member states did was put up border restrictions and travel restrictions. There is no EU level co-operation in tackling this and there is no desire for that to happen.

    Any pronouncements from the EU or it’s organs such as ECB are attempts to appear relevant, but they are clearly not. They are out of the game, watching from the sidelines, not needed or wanted.


    These statements are contradictory.
    Rodney Bathgate wrote: »
    If anything it shows that integration has gone too far and that it is time to take a step back and return sovereignty to member states.


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    #50
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    Macron was sounding very nationalistic today as he visited a French facility to manufacture face masks.

    Let's face it; EU power is mainly controlled by Germany and France.
    We should revert back to an economic alliance and not one where Germany can make unilateral decisions without the consultation of other countries e.g. when Merkel decided to flood Europe with millions of non-EU migrants because she had a moment of weakness.

    I'd say Italy is on the verge of leaving this union.
    And you can't blame them.


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    #51
    Sean.3516
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    So far the only country that has managed to do federalism properly has been The United States by balancing the rights of the constituent states with the powers and responsibilities of the central federal authority.

    And the Lockean philosophy of natural, individual rights that pre-exist government which influenced the US Constitution is the best formula for guaranteeing civil liberties provided the principles are followed through consistently (which wasn't the case in America's early history but eventually became the case).

    The European nations other than perhaps the UK which is now out have no such individual rights based traditions. Since the French Revolution, the European focus has been on collective rights, which tends toward tyranny as different interest groups run roughshod over each other. That emphasis on the collective over the individual still exists in many European nations and in the structure of the European Union. I wouldn't rely on that philosophy to safeguard my civil liberties.

    Also, I think the EU's treaties (which once made are almost impossible to change) would make it impossible to replicate America's example.

    Also I don't know that any of the countries of Europe really want to unite. The Thirteen Colonies had a reason to unite. Not to mention a common language and culture which helps. Why would Poles or Germans or Italians have an interest in how Ireland is governed and visa versa?

    The EU only ever made sense as an economic bloc. Revert back to the European Economic Community please.


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    #52
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    The germans really dont want it.


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    #53
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,666 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    It would also be a bulwark against the worrying rise of nationalism across Europe.

    What "worrying" rise would that be then?

    Countries concerned about their migration policies being set without consideration for local conditions and ability to sustainably support the new arrivals?

    Security concerns given the rise in terrorist and racial attacks in the last few years?

    Economic policy being used to brow-beat smaller members into compliance?

    Those sorts of things?

    The problem there isn't countries having an issue with the effects such things have on their citizens. The issue is an out of touch EU leadership trying to force something that most of its citizens don't support.


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    #54
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,728 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    biko wrote: »
    There is nothing you said there that didn't mean anything other than "we should all be the same".
    Don't you like diversity?

    The diversity that the EU grants with 24 official languages, derogations for local traditions that otherwise would not be allowed under EU law.

    The great thing about the EU is the diversity and it is supported by the EU.


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    #55
    LaFuton
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 784 ✭✭✭LaFuton


    ireland should leave eu asap, and reinstate our own currency, might suck for a while but at least we'll own it, likewise with our waters and natural resources, no reason why every citizen couldn't be safe and well then we could think about selling exports.

    close the feckin airports


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    #56
    PyreOfHellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭PyreOfHellfire


    LaFuton wrote: »
    ireland should leave eu asap, and reinstate our own currency, might suck for a while but at least we'll own it, likewise with our waters and natural resources, no reason why every citizen couldn't be safe and well then we could think about selling exports.

    close the feckin airports

    Yes let's bankrupt ourselves. Sure it might hurt for awhile but people who kept yelling "But muh sovrinteh!" will be happy so let's shoot ourselves in the head.

    Also "think about selling exports"???? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you don't have an economics degree...


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    #57
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,450 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Not a hope would the EU allow hurling long term on safety grounds,

    So be a no from me





    Interesting idea/discussion otherwise,

    But i can see too much difference in regions to make it viable,same as the USA realistically shouldnt be 1 country anymore

    The USA is one country and a proud and strong one. It has common language, finance, tradition, culture and outlook across all it's states. Try telling an American their country should not be a country. No matter Dem or Republican they rally around their country and their flag like no other. They are fiercely proud of America and what it stands for.

    Europe does not and never will have that. That's the reality.


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    #58
    snoopboggybog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 454 ✭✭snoopboggybog


    Wouldn't work, we'd have a huge influx of people taking advantage of our generous welfare.

    Come to Ireland, pop out a child, get a free house, never have to work again!


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    #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    paw patrol wrote: »
    Who knew when voting in FG to punish FF that Enda would send Phil Hogan to the EU? A punishment on us all.




    What nonsense, do you vote directly for your ministers? You elect the TD and the minister is assigned.


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    #60
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,373 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Kivaro wrote: »
    Macron was sounding very nationalistic today as he visited a French facility to manufacture face masks.

    Let's face it; EU power is mainly controlled by Germany and France.
    We should revert back to an economic alliance and not one where Germany can make unilateral decisions without the consultation of other countries e.g. when Merkel decided to flood Europe with millions of non-EU migrants because she had a moment of weakness.

    I'd say Italy is on the verge of leaving this union.
    And you can't blame them.
    Why would italy leave? They would possibly never recover financially. That would be as mad a decision as greece leaving pre bailout


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    #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    biko wrote: »
    The general idea of globalism, and the EU, is to centralise power.
    The idea of nationalism is for each country to make its own decisions, and form voluntary partnerships around issues like trade and climate.

    To force nation states to join together was tried in Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, both now failed.

    The reason it appears to still be working in China is because their oppressive regime, a solution I'd prefer not to have in Europe, no matter how appealing it may seem to some.




    So each COUNTY for itself is it?
    Why should we centralise power into a country wide entity?

    I mean it's a long way from Castletownbere to Dublin, but much longer from Dublin to Castletownbere...


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