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Game News 2.0

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    #692
    Grumpypants
    Registered Users Posts: 7,766 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »
    I know Cyberpunk is nearly a law onto itself but are triple A games just getting so complex now that a lot of bugs aren't going to be fully discovered until they release the game and start getting player feedback which they can patch on the fly.

    You simply can't test them enough to cover everything. If you think about it. Having 100 testers working not stop ( no meetings, toilet breaks etc. ) You still only get 4000 hours of testing a week.

    If everyone that bought it played 3 hours on day one that is already 39 million hours. The chances of players finding bugs the studio never heard of is really high.


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    #693
    Shapey Fiend
    Registered Users Posts: 1,994 ✭✭✭Shapey Fiend


    Western sim/rpg games from (predominantly) PC developers are often buggy. It's just a new experience for console users.

    This is why I love modding. I'm sure Cyberpunk will get fixed because they've got a giant install base but all those mid budget games that only sell a million copies most often get fixed and improved by community members. I can play all sorts of enhanced and tweaked versions of 90's PC games.


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    #694
    johnny_ultimate
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,135 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Cyberpunk is an undeniable mega-hit that tanked a company’s share prices and dealt a deadly blow to the developer’s once uniquely good reputation. It’s a cautionary tale and a success story all at once :pac:

    And yes people should absolutely be expecting bugs and last-minute patches in day one games as they grow in complexity and size (add to that pandemic related logistical challenges). But there’s a definite line between bugs and a game being an unplayable mess on several of the major platforms it released on!


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    #695
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Yeah. As someone who doesn't care one jot about Cyberpunk (it just looks like Too Much Game for my blood), watching from afar is a curious experience; something simultaneously both hugely, hugely successful yet also reviled by a large chunk of press & gamers. What other medium can claim that kind of dissonance? Film maybe; things like the Transformers franchise prints money yet you'd do well to find an outlet or filmgoer that openly admits to liking the series.

    Maybe Cyberpunk was better off releasing itself in instalments? The 8 gazillion years dev. cycle was always going to be insane, and impossible to stay on top of the scope-creep / ongoing bug fixing. That instead they identified a core experience they could release at launch, polished to a mirror shine. Then give themselves the runway to add new features like - say - driveable vehicles or whatnot over the months. Say what you will about Hello Games, but they took the massive backlash on the chin and just plugged away at adding the content missing from launch. They built back their reputation by keeping their heads down, and doing the work.


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    #696
    Robert ninja
    Registered Users Posts: 3,878 ✭✭✭Robert ninja


    Grumpypants wrote: »
    You simply can't test them enough to cover everything. If you think about it. Having 100 testers working not stop
    A lot of testing can be automated now, though. I'm surprised game companies don't use it more. I remember seeing a live stream of Warframe's DE studio where they revealed to have tons of VMs running non-stop combat 24/7. If it eventually picks up errors it's logged and can be slotted into the development team workload.
    They could've had something like that going for traffic in CP2077. I see a lot of cars clipping through each other.
    pixelburp wrote: »
    Maybe Cyberpunk was better off releasing itself in instalments?
    Nope. They didn't need to change the business model to be modular but instead should've just went with more agile development practices.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-jGEtqB4wU


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    #697
    one armed dwarf
    Registered Users Posts: 858 ✭✭✭one armed dwarf


    The scope of the two games is obviously incomparable but you'd wonder with the early access success of Hades could AAA see that as an avenue. Like if CP just released with the story up until the heist and they gave players a few more gigs and sidequests before that point, implementing the rest based on feedback.

    A better example will probably be Baldur's Gate III, when that eventually releases.

    I still content that CP2077's number one problem is the game isn't that good, at least on PC the bugs haven't been any worse than what I've seen in a Bethesda game. But those games are pretty involved and give people what they ask for, even when they are falling apart. CP2077 is just very anemic


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    #698
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Robert ninja wrote: »
    A lot of testing can be automated now, though. I'm surprised game companies don't use it more. I remember seeing a live stream of Warframe's DE studio where they revealed to have tons of VMs running non-stop combat 24/7. If it eventually picks up errors it's logged and can be slotted into the development team workload.
    They could've had something like that going for traffic in CP2077. I see a lot of cars clipping through each other.

    Nope. They didn't need to change the business model to be modular but instead should've just went with more agile development practices.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-jGEtqB4wU

    I got to 10 minutes in and he still hadn't explained how agile would have saved this project. I don't think choosing agile over waterfall would have fixed this. The devs didn't have enough time to do what needed to be done. Agile wouldn't have fixed that.
    one armed dwarf wrote: »
    The scope of the two games is obviously incomparable but you'd wonder with the early access success of Hades could AAA see that as an avenue. Like if CP just released with the story up until the heist and they gave players a few more gigs and sidequests before that point, implementing the rest based on feedback.

    I don't think that would have fixed things either. If they released up to the heist, they would have the story content after that and probably would have avoided have to design the city outside of the starting area (can't remember if you can leave that part of the city in Act 1. However, that wouldn't have saved the developers much time so it would still be in the same, buggy state just much shorter.


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    #699
    gizmo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    The devs didn't have enough time to do what needed to be done.
    Taking everything into consideration, this seems to have been the core problem. Eight years dev time is meaningless if much of that time is squandered building out tech with no clear goals, working on features which are in constant flux and struggling with indecision with regards what platforms you're going to be releasing on. Pushing the launch date out and working on post-release hotfixes will help with your bug count but if you don't lock your feature set in early, you'll struggle to effectively stand up the systems you need to build your game around, something that's made even more difficult in an open world game when so many of those systems are interconnected.

    It's eminently salvageable, especially given CDPRs history of working on quality of life changes on their previous projects well after release, but once the game becomes more stable and the more overtly ****ed issues are sorted, the conversation really should shift to what's actually missing from the game rather than what's broken with what shipped.


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    #700
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I've worked on enough projects that use Agile, but still suffered from massive scope or feature creep. Project management is just another toolset option, and as vulnerable to bad management or implementation as anything else; the rot usually starts from the top downwards with these things, unfortunately (not that there aren't plenty of bad devs corrupting a project). If anything, fancy terms like "Agile" allow bad management to hide mistakes behind a veneer of rigorous structure. No different to a bad carpenter waving a fancy hammer around and declaring he's building the table right 'cos he using a Hammer.


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    #701
    johnny_ultimate
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,135 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    gizmo wrote: »
    It's eminently salvageable, especially given CDPRs history of working on quality of life changes on their previous projects well after release, but once the game becomes more stable and the more overtly ****ed issues are sorted, the conversation really should shift to what's actually missing from the game rather than what's broken with what shipped.

    I agree that the focus on what’s broken has distracted from the actual game itself and its successes / failures as a piece of design. I’m not quite as optimistic about how it will be salvaged, though, mainly because I don’t know what that looks like. As I’ve said before, this isn’t a multiplayer or proc-gen game where people will play for a long time - it’s a very focused (albeit very large) single player game with very well defined content. I’m sure it can and will be refined and enhanced (the mess of a UI is surely top of the priority list there), but the game needs more than quality of life changes: it’s a game that IMO feels fundamentally limited and somewhat lost at its very core design.

    I could see a big expansion really flesh out what’s there with new mechanics etc... We’ve certainly seen games manage that before. Maybe CDPR will do a big root and branch overhaul of what’s there, or even gradual refinements that add up to something major. But the limitation of it being a proud single player game with a set campaign seems to me something that’s very hard to overhaul in the same way you can do with a game where evolution and changes are needed just to keep players interested.

    Basically, I can see a refinement and tidying of the existing game with a few new weapons and quests added for good measure (the W3 free DLC gives us some guide as to what to expect there). I’d just be surprised if we see anything really game-changing outside of a big paid expansion. But I’m happy to be pleasantly surprised if it comes to that :)


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    #702
    gizmo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    johnny_ultimate wrote: »
    I agree that the focus on what’s broken has distracted from the actual game itself and its successes / failures as a piece of design. I’m not quite as optimistic about how it will be salvaged, though, mainly because I don’t know what that looks like. As I’ve said before, this isn’t a multiplayer or proc-gen game where people will play for a long time - it’s a very focused (albeit very large) single player game with very well defined content. I’m sure it can and will be refined and enhanced (the mess of a UI is surely top of the priority list there), but the game needs more than quality of life changes: it’s a game that IMO feels fundamentally limited and somewhat lost at its very core design.
    True but it is a game that CDPR will want to sell for a long time. Looking at the sales for The Witcher 3, they managed to maintain considerably high sales over the last number of years across multiple platforms. If they want to repeat that success with Cyberpunk, they'll need to do the work not only to improve both the quality and reputation of the base game but also for it to act as a platform for future meaty expansions and the multiplayer component they've spoken of previously.


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    #703
    johnny_ultimate
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,135 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    On that note, Jason Schreier has a piece on the development of the game up now:

    https://twitter.com/jasonschreier/status/1350322423170797568?s=21
    At E3 in June 2019, CD Projekt announced that the game would come out on April 16, 2020. Fans were elated, but internally, some members of the team could only scratch their heads, wondering how they could possibly finish the game by then. One person said they thought the date was a joke. Based on the team’s progress, they expected the game to be ready in 2022. Developers created memes about the game getting delayed, making bets on when it would happen.


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    #704
    RobertFoster
    Registered Users Posts: 9,136 ✭✭✭RobertFoster


    If you've time to lean meme, you've time to clean fix game-breaking bugs. :p


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    #705
    gizmo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    The Phantom Pain wrote: »
    Am I missing something? Nothing about that article told us anything new or something that wasn't already assumed by most people?
    Jason has done better than that. Kind of feels like beating a dead horse at this point.
    Likely a follow up to Iwiński's statement during the week, the investor lawsuit and published sales figures as well as adding some additional context to some of the comments made within. Nothing new per say, more that the extra information is helping to paint a clearer picture of what went wrong during development.

    There were some additional bits cut from the piece, referenced later in the thread, which touch on some of the topics discussed above, namely development length and processes which led to certain aspects feeling unfinished.


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    #706
    ERG89
    Registered Users Posts: 11,611 ✭✭✭✭ERG89


    Well we learned that several of their top developers left the company well before it shipped, that development restarted completely in late 2016, devs felt the company overall focused more on marketing than actual development time, the 2018 E3 demo was smoke and mirrors which many felt delayed months of actual development time, different people in the company had different views on what the game was meant to be, they've hired English speaking staff who have still not been fully integrated into the company & with their current environment it looks like it will take some time/effort to fix everything.


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    #707
    J. Marston
    Registered Users Posts: 23,115 ✭✭✭✭J. Marston


    With any luck, it'll kill the stupidest fúcking thing in gaming. Pre-awards...

    lu0hmkmn6rb61.jpg


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    #708
    nextgengamer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭nextgengamer


    CP2077. I am so tired of hearing about this game. Looks like a million other first person shooter games. Stripping the technology problems and achievements aside, what is special about this game?


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    #709
    one armed dwarf
    Registered Users Posts: 858 ✭✭✭one armed dwarf


    I don't really see what's so crazy about a 2 year old demo being smoke and mirrors tbh.

    Feels like that describes most E3 demos


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    #710
    Azza
    Moderators Posts: 5,554 ✭✭✭Azza


    nextgengamer wrote: »
    CP2077. I am so tired of hearing about this game. Looks like a million other first person shooter games. Stripping the technology problems and achievements aside, what is special about this game?

    Emmm, for someone complaining about hearing about the game too much you don't seem to be aware its not actually a first person shooter.


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    #711
    nextgengamer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭nextgengamer


    Azza wrote: »
    Emmm, for someone complaining about hearing about the game too much you don't seem to be aware its not actually a first person shooter.

    Ok it's first person and you shoot :)
    Apart from that what's special about it ?
    (Will Google, sorry for noise :))


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    #712
    Shapey Fiend
    Registered Users Posts: 1,994 ✭✭✭Shapey Fiend


    It's a first person RPG in the vein of Oblivion, Witcher 3 etc.

    It's always hard to discern differences with really big budget games because the art pipeline is so gigantic there's not much scope for experimentation in the game design. It's more of a OMGs there's 300 hours of missions for you to complete kind of buzz.


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    #713
    ERG89
    Registered Users Posts: 11,611 ✭✭✭✭ERG89


    https://twitter.com/Nibellion/status/1352707290080665600?s=19

    Such a shame

    https://twitter.com/Wario64/status/1352625698800734209?s=19

    I assume GamePass will eventually see a price hike following this too. Microsoft aren't a charity afterall.


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    #714
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,499 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    Link in tweet says they've cancelled price change.


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    #715
    Mr Crispy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,671 ✭✭✭Mr Crispy


    Yeah, seems so. "Xbox U-turns on Gold subscription price hike after fan backlash" - GamesIndustry.biz


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    #716
    Zero-Cool
    Registered Users Posts: 29,516 ✭✭✭✭Zero-Cool


    Jeeeezus!! The Tony Hawks remake was so good and they were hinting about remaking 3 & 4, possibly underground.

    **** Blizzard :(


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    #717
    J. Marston
    Registered Users Posts: 23,115 ✭✭✭✭J. Marston


    Mr Crispy wrote: »
    Yeah, seems so. "Xbox U-turns on Gold subscription price hike after fan backlash" - GamesIndustry.biz

    They'll come back with a less egregious price hike and people will accept it because it won't look as bad.

    Door in the face technique, seems to the standard thing in the gaming industry now.


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    #718
    gizmo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    Zero-Cool wrote: »
    Jeeeezus!! The Tony Hawks remake was so good and they were hinting about remaking 3 & 4, possibly underground.

    **** Blizzard :(
    More details coming out about that now...

    Blizzard Absorbs Activision Studio After Dismantling Classic Games Team

    https://twitter.com/jasonschreier/status/1352766999823314949?s=19


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    #719
    Zero-Cool
    Registered Users Posts: 29,516 ✭✭✭✭Zero-Cool


    Sucks for me as VV are a great studio and i haven't cared about a Blizzard game since rock and roll reaching in 1993.


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