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path on top of grass

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Comments

  • #32
    RobAMerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭RobAMerc


    GreeBo wrote: »
    OP how big is your garden, is fixing the general fall of the garden an option, to at least stop pooling?
    Are you surrounded by neighbours or what is outside of the garden area?

    I've had torrential rain this morning, so I wouldnt use that as a normal test, but it will be interesting to see how quickly it drains for you.

    The ungrassed bit around the tree was a large dip in the garden which I filled with 50/50 sand and topsoil mix in the hope to aid drainage it didnt work so I am going to try finish the job before grass grows !


  • #33
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,249 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    RobAMerc wrote: »
    its been torrential here in D16 !

    As you can see I started the trench below the tree

    The whole garden falls slightly left and down towards the hole in the left top of this picture - (Hard to see the hole I know but its at the bottom of the palm)

    Im in the same area and it has been very heavy with localised flooding alright!


  • #34
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,249 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    chooseusername wrote: »
    Why would you dig a hole, barrow all the waste away and dispose it,
    only to buy stones ,barrow them in and fill the hole .
    I don't know the void ratio but I'd say a thousand litre hole filled with 20mm. stones
    would become an 200 litre hole, or less.

    Drainage pipe;
    4in. underground waste pipe with slots cut across the top and 3/4 way down
    alternative sides about 4 ins. apart laid with the solid strip down,pea shingle,
    memblane and topsoil.

    Path;
    Resin bonded shingle, (Diy pack) on sound base laid to same level as lawn.

    Then, after breakfast sit back and appreciate your handiwork!

    For drainage pipes you want slits all over them, not just top and sides.

    Goes against what you might think, but thats how they work best.

    /edit for clarity

    If the slits are only on the top and sides then the water level has to reach the top/sides before it will actually drain out. If there are slits all over then water will drain as soon as it reaches the bottom of the pipe.
    The water doesnt fall in from above, it seeps in from all over, but mostly up from the bottom as the water level rises.


  • #35
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Genuine question.

    Have you really considered, ditching the grass. Either stone the whole lot and put in a nice granite path or put in artificial grass and putting in a nice path. (some artificial stuff look superb now.

    Im solely thinking about the use you and aesthetics you are getting from the grass as it is. alot of effort to solve those drainage issues to support a poor grass finish thats there.


  • #36
    cruizer101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    You can get specific soakaway crates for this purpose. They are designed for this and so have high strength, more than you require really can be used under driveway. Has a quick Google but couldn't see any for sale in Ireland though I'm sure they are.

    Pavingexpert.com is a great website with lots of guides on paving and drainage.


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  • #37
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,135 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    RobAMerc wrote: »
    The ungrassed bit around the tree was a large dip in the garden which I filled with 50/50 sand and topsoil mix in the hope to aid drainage it didnt work

    LOL

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showthread.php?p=106111861#post106111861


  • #38
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,249 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    listermint wrote: »
    Genuine question.

    Have you really considered, ditching the grass. Either stone the whole lot and put in a nice granite path or put in artificial grass and putting in a nice path. (some artificial stuff look superb now.

    Im solely thinking about the use you and aesthetics you are getting from the grass as it is. alot of effort to solve those drainage issues to support a poor grass finish thats there.
    He is still going to have to solve the drainage issue though, even with an artificial surface.
    cruizer101 wrote: »
    You can get specific soakaway crates for this purpose. They are designed for this and so have high strength, more than you require really can be used under driveway. Has a quick Google but couldn't see any for sale in Ireland though I'm sure they are.

    Pavingexpert.com is a great website with lots of guides on paving and drainage.
    Yep you deffo can, I had them in my last house (builder supplied though)


  • #39
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    GreeBo wrote: »
    OP how big is your garden, is fixing the general fall of the garden an option, to at least stop pooling?
    Are you surrounded by neighbours or what is outside of the garden area?

    I've had torrential rain this morning, so I wouldnt use that as a normal test, but it will be interesting to see how quickly it drains for you.

    You are in fact doing a percolation test, to see how quickly the water drains away in the hole.
    I know you're Dublin but any Agri store would stock the pipe, either in black 6m lengths and in a roll. The roll is usually yellow.
    A submersible pump with a float switch in a barrel is your fall back position. Lidl or Aldi stock them on occasion, €70 I think.


  • #40
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,249 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Lumen wrote: »
    LOL

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showthread.php?p=106111861#post106111861

    I didnt think that was also true for sharp sand/grit?

    Every golf course in the world adds shard sand to every grass covered surface to help with drainage...


  • #41
    RobAMerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭RobAMerc


    I took the advice of a fairly seasoned gardener that a sand topsoilt mix would work.

    Based on wvery green in the country being mostly sand based it seemed reasonable.


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  • #42
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,135 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    RobAMerc wrote: »
    I took the advice of a fairly seasoned gardener that a sand topsoilt mix would work.

    Based on wvery green in the country being mostly sand based it seemed reasonable.

    As I understand it, greens are constructed with a discrete bedding layer of sand under the turf. This is for both drainage and levelling, but has other consequences like making the greens more needy in terms of water and nutrients. That is different from using a sand/soil mixture to do soil structure remediation, which is at least controversial and hasn't worked for you yet.

    My experience in this area is limited to my own garden, which has been variously improved and ruined by different strategies employed. The best soil structure I have is in areas with decades of root growth and leaf fall, and the worst is in areas that were covered in weed suppressing plastic.

    So IMO aside from physical drainage works e.g. perforated pipe the best approach is to try to work with nature rather than against it, and get as much organic material in as possible by mulching and top dressing.


  • #43
    RobAMerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭RobAMerc


    Water John wrote: »
    You are in fact doing a percolation test, to see how quickly the water drains away in the hole.
    I know you're Dublin but any Agri store would stock the pipe, either in black 6m lengths and in a roll. The roll is usually yellow.
    A submersible pump with a float switch in a barrel is your fall back position. Lidl or Aldi stock them on occasion, €70 I think.

    hmmm, nearly 7 hours since it rained. the puddle around the tree is gone, but the "soak" is still full to the brim !


  • #44
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    What depth have you and what is the soil like down there.
    If the soil is very pasty, it won't soak enough.


  • #45
    chooseusername
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,852 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    GreeBo wrote: »
    For drainage pipes you want slits all over them, not just top and sides.

    Goes against what you might think, but thats how they work best.

    /edit for clarity

    If the slits are only on the top and sides then the water level has to reach the top/sides before it will actually drain out. If there are slits all over then water will drain as soon as it reaches the bottom of the pipe.
    The water doesnt fall in from above, it seeps in from all over, but mostly up from the bottom as the water level rises.
    It's the old holes up or holes down chestnut.
    Holes down will redistribute water before it reaches the soak hole,
    especially if laid on shingle.
    The slots meanwhile are cut to within an inch of the bottom of the pipe,
    allowing water to flow .
    Either can be correct depending on the conditions.


  • #46
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,249 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    chooseusername wrote: »
    It's the old holes up or holes down chestnut.
    Holes down will redistribute water before it reaches the soak hole,
    especially if laid on shingle.
    The slots meanwhile are cut to within an inch of the bottom of the pipe,
    allowing water to flow .
    Either can be correct depending on the conditions.
    The water won't redistribute out the holes, the only way it's getting in is the water level being higher than the pipes.
    Why would you ever not want the water getting into the pipe as early as possible?
    And the slits are all the way around, top to bottom.
    Lumen wrote: »
    As I understand it, greens are constructed with a discrete bedding layer of sand under the turf. This is for both drainage and levelling, but has other consequences like making the greens more needy in terms of water and nutrients. That is different from using a sand/soil mixture to do soil structure remediation, which is at least controversial and hasn't worked for you yet.

    My experience in this area is limited to my own garden, which has been variously improved and ruined by different strategies employed. The best soil structure I have is in areas with decades of root growth and leaf fall, and the worst is in areas that were covered in weed suppressing plastic.

    So IMO aside from physical drainage works e.g. perforated pipe the best approach is to try to work with nature rather than against it, and get as much organic material in as possible by mulching and top dressing.
    The sand is used everywhere though.
    Multiple times a year they dump tonnes of sand onto the whole course to improve soil quality and drainage.


  • #47
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,135 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    GreeBo wrote: »
    The sand is used everywhere though.
    Multiple times a year they dump tonnes of sand onto the whole course to improve soil quality and drainage.
    Fair point, but that's top-dressing rather than digging in, and I concede there may be benefits of top dressing with sand, but some of them are specific to golf

    https://www.usga.org/course-care/regional-updates/southeast-region/the-benefits-of-sand-topdressing.html

    "Improved Smoothness – Voids exist within the turf canopy between turfgrass leaves and stems, causing inconsistent ball roll. Sand topdressing helps fill these voids to provide smoother and truer putts."

    So filling voids makes golf better but the advice I've heard/read from experienced gardeners (rather than golf course maintainers) is that if you have clay soil you should do everything possible to preserve the voids, e.g. by avoiding working (or even walking on it) when it's wet, as that squeezes out the voids.

    If you are going to dig anything in it should be organic matter as that encourages worm activity, the benefits of which outweight the void-squeezing from the digging.

    Anyway, it seems like in this case the problem may be a high water table rather than a problem with soil quality. :)


  • #48
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,249 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Lumen wrote: »
    Fair point, but that's top-dressing rather than digging in, and I concede there may be benefits of top dressing with sand, but some of them are specific to golf

    https://www.usga.org/course-care/regional-updates/southeast-region/the-benefits-of-sand-topdressing.html

    "Improved Smoothness – Voids exist within the turf canopy between turfgrass leaves and stems, causing inconsistent ball roll. Sand topdressing helps fill these voids to provide smoother and truer putts."

    So filling voids makes golf better but the advice I've heard/read from experienced gardeners (rather than golf course maintainers) is that if you have clay soil you should do everything possible to preserve the voids, e.g. by avoiding working (or even walking on it) when it's wet, as that squeezes out the voids.

    If you are going to dig anything in it should be organic matter as that encourages worm activity, the benefits of which outweight the void-squeezing from the digging.

    Anyway, it seems like in this case the problem may be a high water table rather than a problem with soil quality. :)

    Yeah they specifically top dress greens for levelness, but they are also dump tonnes of sharp sand/grit onto the fairways to help drainage.
    Note that its specifically sharp sand, adding any other type (plasterers or play sand) will indeed create porridge!

    For clay you really need to be adding the sand in large enough volumes to change the consistency, if you only add a small amount the benefit of the sand will be far out weighed by the damage caused during the works.
    Adding organic matter will also significantly help, as you say due to worms etc.

    An easier way to add sand to clay soils is to use an aerator and then add the sharp sand. This creates mini drainage holes and over time/repeated applications will change the soil and hopefully avoid the marsh. It will also help to stop water running over the surface, which it will do on clay.

    However if, like it seems the OP has, you have something thats adding water to the site, fixing that should be priority number 1!


  • #49
    RobAMerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭RobAMerc


    as an update - the channel I dug and the soak are still full of water - so soak test is a fail!


  • #50
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,249 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    RobAMerc wrote: »
    as an update - the channel I dug and the soak are still full of water - so soak test is a fail!

    The soak test was a complete success, your percolation test however has failed :)


  • #51
    RobAMerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭RobAMerc


    I guess the trench being full is an indication of why the garden is a swamp and should be greatly effected by the drainage solution - but the soak pit is a problem - could it be a case that I need to keep digging till I find a permeable layer ?

    Or is it a case of - "you need a fookin pump pal"

    There is a chance that the bottom of the nearest waste pipe is below the level drainage pipes would be at - but I aint optimistic !


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  • #52
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,135 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Pumping groundwater should be the last resort. There must surely be a gravity-based solution!


  • #53
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    RobAMerc wrote: »
    I guess the trench being full is an indication of why the garden is a swamp and should be greatly effected by the drainage solution - but the soak pit is a problem - could it be a case that I need to keep digging till I find a permeable layer ?

    Or is it a case of - "you need a fookin pump pal"

    There is a chance that the bottom of the nearest waste pipe is below the level drainage pipes would be at - but I aint optimistic !

    Well it should be below ground level... So you won't have a wet topsoil. Drains is most sensible option.


  • #54
    RobAMerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭RobAMerc


    So, I kept digging and got down to 1.2 meters

    I now have a 1.2 meter deep pond in the garden !

    Without any rain the hole filled to about 200mm below the ground level - Yep, drainage still isnt happening!

    I got an automatic pump and hired a mini digger for the weekend.

    I am assuming a half ton of pebbles will be sufficient ? I will have 3 * 6 meter channels and 2 * 10 meters


  • #55
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Just dig it all out put a pool in and a diving board off the shed.

    You only live once man.


  • #56
    RobAMerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭RobAMerc


    listermint wrote: »
    Just dig it all out put a pool in and a diving board off the shed.

    You only live once man.

    Well its actually about 1 meter wide, 1 deep and 2 meters long - I certainly had thought of another use for it when showing my mother in law the other day !


  • #57
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    You're very posh with a hot tub in the garden. You could do like the Fliuc Fiadh long ago. Heat stones in the fire and throw them into it.
    Unless you have gravity somewhere, you'll have to install a dirty water pump.


  • #58
    RobAMerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭RobAMerc


    right - job done


    I hired a mini digger - completely dug the hole out to 2 meters deep, by 2*1 on top. bloody thing just keeps filling up with water

    I then dug 3 drains across the garden 2 of which run into 1 which runs the length of the garden into the hole.

    I put an old coal bunker into the hole to make a tank - to be honest the hole kept perfect sides because the "soil" is virtually turf !
    There was an old path I broke up and used the large pieces to line the sides of the tank too.
    I followed on then to put a 2.2 * 1.2 concrete slab on top with a man hole in it
    I ran a 3 inch pipe from inside the tank to the shore at the top of the garden and dropped an automatic pump into the sump - it seems to work well

    I followed on by tidying up the garden and putting the path in.
    I will admit I didnt do the last bit myself I had someone come, level the garden and mkae the path as I just ran out of steam putting the drainage in.

    I'll report back on how dry it is, but judging by the amount of water in the tank its certainly getting in there ok !

    thanks for the help
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