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Anti-vaxxers

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    #3032
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    How many times are you going to spam that link?

    He and Wakefield were struck off. Not really the same as being cleared, is it?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #3033
    Dr Brown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭Dr Brown


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    How many times are you going to spam that link?

    He and Wakefield were struck off. Not really the same as being cleared, is it?




    Walker got his medical license back I'd call that being cleared.


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    #3034
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    Walker got his medical license back I'd call that being cleared.

    Wakefield got his back too, presumably?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #3035
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    Accusing somebody of carrying out "child abuse" with no evidence is some mistake.


    You need to stop believing what you read in the fake media.

    Where's your evidence that vaccines cause autism?


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    #3036
    Dr Brown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭Dr Brown


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Wakefield got his back too, presumably?




    He didn't have enough money to appeal otherwise he would be being cleared.


    90% of the charges against Wakefield were the same as Walker Smith.


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    #3037
    LessOutragePlz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    It's crazy that people believe this nonsense! If most people took the anti-vaccine stance then heard immunity wouldn't work and people/children would become very sick and potentially die. This is a fact based on science yet these anti-vaxxers pedal this nonsense online knowing they'll find an audience that will entertain it. They should be ashamed of themselves no good can come of the anti-vaccine movement.


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    #3038
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    He didn't have enough money to appeal otherwise he would be being cleared.


    90% of the charges against Wakefield were the same as Walker Smith.

    Bollix. He got plenty from Richard Barr for starters.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #3039
    sunshine and showers
    Registered Users Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭sunshine and showers


    Jumping in to call bull****. Andrew Wakefield did indeed carry out the tests for his bull**** study and he was struck off for it.
    All three were found to have subjected children to invasive investigations, including painful lumbar punctures (of the spinal cord) and colonoscopies (explorations of the bowel), which were "not clinically indicated" but which lacked Ethics Committee approval for research, because they did not meet the criteria for the trial.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/damning-verdict-on-doctor-who-linked-mmr-with-autism-1882547.html
    The GMC found that Wakefield had flouted the rules in pursuit of his theory – and profit. At the centre of the case against him is the ethical conduct of the trial which resulted in the Lancet paper. The panel found he had subjected 11 children to invasive tests such as lumbar punctures and colonoscopies that they did not need, without ethical approval.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2010/jan/28/andrew-wakefield-mmr-vaccine


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    #3040
    Dr Brown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭Dr Brown


    Anyone who is open minded can watch this video and see Del Bigtree prove with documentary evidence that the case against Wakefield was complete BS.

    The truth is out there unless you happen to be an NPC who never questions anything.



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    #3041
    Dr Brown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭Dr Brown


    sunshine and showers wrote: »
    Jumping in to call bull****. Andrew Wakefield did indeed carry out the tests for his bull**** study and he was struck off for it.



    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/damning-verdict-on-doctor-who-linked-mmr-with-autism-1882547.html



    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2010/jan/28/andrew-wakefield-mmr-vaccine




    Nope it shows how little you know about the case.


    Wakefield was not the one who carried out the tests.


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    #3042
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Can you prove Wakefield couldn't afford to appeal?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #3043
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    Yet you accuse me of spreading false information.

    Will you now admit Wakefield did not carry out "child abuse" ?

    It was Wakefield's responsibility to outline the changes in relation to moving from a blood test to pretty invasive tests.... He did not. He did so on purpose because nobody would have signed off on it.


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    #3044
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,004 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Public health emergency declared for part of Brooklyn, NY. 285 cases of measles. Not sure how I missed this, thought it was not NYC but I guess I was wrong. An orthodox Jewish community rife with anti-vaxxing is at the heart of it.

    https://nypost.com/2019/04/09/public-health-emergency-declared-amid-brooklyn-measles-outbreak/

    Only 2 cases of measles in 2017. 285 since October 2018.


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    #3045
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,788 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    The truth is out there unless you happen to be an NPC who never questions anything.

    Oh jesus christ, here's the "sheeple" trope


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    #3046
    banie01
    Registered Users Posts: 16,498 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Oh jesus christ, here's the "sheeple" trope

    Imagine if the Doc and CS ever hooked up and had kids!

    This constant dismissal of evidence backed science in favour of cranks with a theory who 100% believe that they have cracked the code of the matrix is maddening!

    While no-one should just follow the crowd, and asking questions and examining evidence is a healthy place to approach the world from...
    What is actually wrong with people who can quite happily ignore not only the consensus, and every piece of available credible evidence...
    But also manage to misinterpret and misrepresent studies and quotes in a manner that shows a laughably poor understanding of scientific principles.

    Quote mining, lying and outright deception is really par for the course for these anti-vaxxers, truthers, and all their ilk.


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    #3047
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It's par for the course. I'm not really sure why we've imported so much of this particularly American boll*xology to be honest. I don't know if some people just need to feel special or listened to or what it is that drives them to fill their brains with muck.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #3048
    sunshine and showers
    Registered Users Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭sunshine and showers


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    Nope it shows how little you know about the case.


    Wakefield was not the one who carried out the tests.

    Either you've been had or you're confused.

    Andrew Wakefield was struck off, in part, for ordering lumbar punctures, barium meals, general anaesthesia, and a colonoscopy that were not clinically indicated, as well as giving a child an experimental drug without approval. Read the charges the GMC struck him off for.

    (Do not come back with the semantics of "but see, he didn't *do* the tests, he just ordered them!")

    Not forgetting that Wakefield has claimed that he took the blood samples for his "study" from children at his child's birthday party (and paid them a fiver each for the pleasure). Now he has since claimed he made that up to be "funny", but who the hell can believe a word he says? (The GMC found that he did this btw.)

    https://www.nhs.uk/news/medical-practice/ruling-on-doctor-in-mmr-scare/

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/doctor-behind-mmr-scare-struck-off-1.858480%3fmode=amp


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    #3049
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,004 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    sunshine and showers wrote: »
    Either you've been had or you're confused.

    Andrew Wakefield was struck off, in part, for ordering lumbar punctures, barium meals, general anaesthesia, and a colonoscopy that were not clinically indicated, as well as giving a child an experimental drug without approval. Read the charges the GMC struck him off for.


    https://www.nhs.uk/news/medical-practice/ruling-on-doctor-in-mmr-scare/

    That is really chilling stuff. Here we had children with severe emotional/behavioral issues being used in studies unethically, having enormously stressful tests done to them. Lumbar punctures? Barium meals (FWIW I had one of those once upon a time as an adult to diagnose an ulcer. It's really unpleasant, you drink a yucky-tasting barium cocktail while they fluorscope you. Imagine being disabled by autism and going through this. Terrifying.)

    If the studies had been for acne medicine, it would've been no less heinous. Wakefield as the head of the study, has the buck stop with him, and roundly deserved to be struck off. Given his sinister motivations, prison time would've been called for in my view.

    And, funny, in those charges, I don't see that reporters name mentioned? All the data were acquired from presumably legitimate doctors in legitimate hospitals.


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    #3050
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,771 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    Yet you accuse me of spreading false information.

    Will you now admit Wakefield did not carry out "child abuse" ?
    Just because one person makes one mistake once amid a deluge of mis-information and then apologises doesn't prove everything else was right.

    That's the thing with science, evidence can't be ignored.



    To dumb it down, Wakefield said this vaccine is better than that vaccine.
    The science was bad and he was getting undeclared money too.


    So any appeal to Wakefield means you MUST support vaccines in general.

    Any other position would require you to go against him because he advocated vaccines.


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    #3051
    dexter_morgan
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭dexter_morgan


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    Just like the swine flu vaccine was "safe".


    Saying that all Vaccines are "safe" is like saying that all pharmaceutical drugs are safe once they licensed.

    You are not helping your position by using the swine flu vaccine as an argument. When they realised there may be a problem, they investigated, released a report and withdrew the vaccine. No cover ups or conspiracy involved! Even so, problems arising from the vaccine were rare.


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    #3052
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Oh jesus christ, here's the "sheeple" trope

    Aye, can never understand the ‘sheeple’ charge. Sure, couldn’t anti-vaxxers be called the same for what they believe? I’m convinced that many conspiracy theorists have a great need to feel special but haven’t been able to distinguish themselves. So they cling to these theories in order to make themselves feel superior to others.

    There is not one scientist on the planet who would discourage a healthy amount of scepticism. Robust science will stand up to scrutiny. Scientists can be a competitive lot and won’t be shy in pointing out bad science where they see it. Anti-vaxxers are so wrong if they think all scientific ideas are just accepted easily.


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    #3053
    Dr Brown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭Dr Brown


    dexter_morgan wrote: »
    You are not helping your position by using the swine flu vaccine as an argument. When they realised there may be a problem, they investigated, released a report and withdrew the vaccine. No cover ups or conspiracy involved! Even so, problems arising from the vaccine were rare.





    The people damaged by the Swine Vaccine who are looking for compensation say other wise.

    Many of those people were also labeled "anti vaccine" when they went looking for help.

    All through history when ever there is a problem with a medical product the modus operandi of the authorities is to always deny that there is a problem until it can no longer be denied.


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    #3054
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,413 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    The people damaged by the Swine Vaccine who are looking for compensation say other wise.

    Many of those people were also labeled "anti vaccine" when they went looking for help.

    All through history when ever there is a problem with a medical product the modus operandi of the authorities is to always deny that there is a problem until it can no longer be denied.

    On the flip side of your arguement i would love to see you face to face with a polio victim and tell them that they shouldn't vaccinate their children.


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    #3055
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,004 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Dr Brown wrote: »

    Many of those people were also labeled "anti vaccine" when they went looking for help.

    Another gift of the anti-vax movement.

    (I suppose you actually have proof they were labeled anti-vax? I mean, you wouldn't just be making this up now, would you?)

    I must ask. Do you get a flu vaccine each year?


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    #3056
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    The people damaged by the Swine Vaccine who are looking for compensation say other wise.

    Many of those people were also labeled "anti vaccine" when they went looking for help.

    All through history when ever there is a problem with a medical product the modus operandi of the authorities is to always deny that there is a problem until it can no longer be denied.

    I give up. I think I have to.

    In retrospect, when you are challenged your response is to shift the goalposts. You have contributed nothing to this thread, instead dumping links to crackpot blogs and Youtubers. You've either chosen to dumb down your own brain with drivel or are looking for a reaction. I don't know which.

    The really sad thing is that if a dodgy, unsafe vaccine is ever released, people like you have so thoroughly poisoned the well that you've made a debate on an important human achievement and healthcare that much harder.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #3057
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Public health emergency declared for part of Brooklyn, NY. 285 cases of measles. Not sure how I missed this, thought it was not NYC but I guess I was wrong. An orthodox Jewish community rife with anti-vaxxing is at the heart of it.

    https://nypost.com/2019/04/09/public-health-emergency-declared-amid-brooklyn-measles-outbreak/

    Only 2 cases of measles in 2017. 285 since October 2018.

    Simon Harris 'exploring plans' to ban children who are not vaccinated against measles from schools and creches.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/harris-to-explore-plans-to-ban-children-that-are-not-vaccinated-against-measles-from-creches-and-schools-38001248.html


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    #3058
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    What I really find most sad about this is that it's impossible to hold an adult debate around an issue that is not at black and white as it first appears.

    I am not an anti-vaxxer. I believe that the science behind vaccination is sound.

    However, I am against poor-quality vaccination.

    To say all vaccination is good is to say all food is good without ever taking into account the quantitive and qualitive properties. You wouldn't sit your two year old down in McDonalds and force them to consume five Big Macs in a row, and probably wouldn't take them to McDonalds in the first place.

    You see, you can't do the usual double-blind clinical trials with vaccination products as it's inherently unethical. Just because single vaccination products have been proven successful in the past, it's a pure manifestation of 'optimism bias' to combine them in multi-valent vaccination products without doing the proper clinical-trials. It's a chicken-and-egg situation.

    But the keyboard warriors on both sides just love this sh*t.

    Take the whole 'Thimiserol' issue. Mercury is defined as a neurotoxin by the US FDA. Yet Thimiserol was merrily used until the naughties and then withdrawn without any official proof of bad reactions.

    Yet the keyboard warriors still defend the use of this withdrawn preservative stating that there's more Mercury in the fish you eat, totally neglecting the basic facts of absorption via injection vs. ingestion.

    Both sides of the argument need to keep an open mind, but the shutters are firmly down.


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    #3059
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Andrew Wakefield study was conducted across 13 children, and was largely based on asking young children how they felt. Less than half gave the answers he wanted, so he lied about the rest.

    One of the only places to give him a platform is infowars, who also try to claim that there are child sex colonies on Mars (not a joke). And whose founder has repeatedly stated in court that his show is fill of intentional lies masked as "entertainment".

    I wonder why people consider his supporters to fools and blatant trolls...


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    #3060
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Andrew Wakefield study was conducted across 13 children, and was largely based on asking young children how they felt. Less than half gave the answers he wanted, so he lied about the rest.

    One of the only places to give him a platform is infowars, who also try to claim that there are child sex colonies on Mars (not a joke). And whose founder has repeatedly stated in court that his show is fill of intentional lies masked as "entertainment".

    I wonder why people consider his supporters to fools and blatant trolls...

    Billy, it's so much worse than that. Wakefield was responsible for carrying out of painful, invasive and unnecessary testing including colonoscopies and lumbar punctures on autistic children. He withheld that he had a competing patent to MMR when applying for ethical clearance and now makes a fortune peddling dangerous misinformation.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #3061
    VicMackey1
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭VicMackey1


    Dr Brown wrote: »
    The people damaged by the Swine Vaccine who are looking for compensation say other wise.

    Could you point me in the direction of where you got this information? Maybe you can give me a source, but if not I will just presume you are making shi*e up! I have not heard any of them talk about cover-ups or conspiracies? FWIW I don't see any evidence of cover-ups. There has been a lot of time wasting with regards to the discovery of documents but not much else.
    The test case is due to be heard in the High Court in October and while I hope the outcome will benefit the people that developed narcolepsy, unfortunately, it will be used by people like you and groups such as regret to push anti-vax nonsense.


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