Farm science.

Siamsa Sessions · 29-03-2018 9:19am

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

You'd need a lot!
Excluding soil emissions it's roughly a kilo of co2/l milk. A cubic metre of timber has about .7-1t of co2 equivalent depending if it's hard or soft wood.
There's roughly a 45-30-25% split between methane, nitrous oxide and co2 under the current weightings.
There would be about 100-150 t/ha more of co2 stored in less intensively managed grassland than intensive due to healthier soil, but even if that was acknowledged we should be using different weightings to the current ones. Methane is rated at 28 times that of carbon dioxide when it's effect on temperatures is only between 0.25-4 times that of carbon.
If that was changed a more sustainable system would be unquestionable but the current system puts such a weighting on methane (which takes the pressure off big business and developed countries) that the easiest approach taken by the likes of teagasc is to intensify further and not acknowledge the negatives of the system as they are merely carrying out a box ticking excercise.

Thanks - great to get some numbers and context around this.

Can I try to get some bits straight in my head and make some general assumptions:

* Average between hard and soft wood = 0.85t (or 850kg) of CO2 per m3
* Average cow produces 5,000l per annum (IFA figures), so 5,000kg of CO2
* 1 cow needs 5,000/850 = 5.88m3 of timber to balance out CO2 emissions

Given how much timber you need to make up 1m3, that seems like a lot of forestry, never mind say hedgerows, to capture the carbon of one cow.

There's lots of ifs and buts in the above, but would it be safe to say they're ball-park figures nonetheless?

And that's before looking at the weighting of methane vs CO2.

yosemitesam1 · 29-03-2018 10:20am

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Thanks - great to get some numbers and context around this.

Can I try to get some bits straight in my head and make some general assumptions:

* Average between hard and soft wood = 0.85t (or 850kg) of CO2 per m3
* Average cow produces 5,000l per annum (IFA figures), so 5,000kg of CO2
* 1 cow needs 5,000/850 = 5.88m3 of timber to balance out CO2 emissions

Given how much timber you need to make up 1m3, that seems like a lot of forestry, never mind say hedgerows, to capture the carbon of one cow.

There's lots of ifs and buts in the above, but would it be safe to say they're ball-park figures nonetheless?

And that's before looking at the weighting of methane vs CO2.

Ye those figures would be roughly right excluding soil carbon losses which aren't acknowledged, but would add at least .2-.4kg/l.
The problem with forestry also is that it only offsets emissions as long as the wood isn't harvested, over the next 10-15 years forestry will change from a sink to a source of carbon as the increases in planting done in the 90's starts to mature. All the government is looking to do is try to kick our problems down the road as commercial forestry isn't a solution and no one would plant if there was never going to be harvesting.
If the weighting on methane was changed, it would mean that emissions from a low input system would be almost non existent. Even if soil carbon losses were acknowledged from intensive systems it would make lower input systems much more attractive from an emissions point of view. Methane production per l would be higher but nitrous oxide could be eliminated as would soil c losses and co2 emissions would also be reduced.
There isn't really the desire to change any of the current system in teagasc only try to make all the existing bits "better"...

yosemitesam1 · 01-04-2018 2:22pm

From teagascs on farm grass evaluations. Not really sure is there anything to take from it bar persistency+dmd

Buford T. Justice XIX · 01-04-2018 2:34pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

From teagascs on farm grass evaluations. Not really sure is there anything to take from it bar persistency+dmd

Nothing there, yosemite?

yosemitesam1 · 01-04-2018 2:50pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Nothing there, yosemite?

Think it's there now

Siamsa Sessions · 03-04-2018 8:48am

Some bedtime reading: http://www.agroecology-europe.org/new-articles/

All articles/publications relate to agroecology, and given the apparent environmental direction of the new CAP, they might be a sign of things to come?

Buford T. Justice XIX · 20-04-2018 8:56pm

A little bit about Honeybees and their non decline recently.

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2018/04/17/honeybee-population-isnt-crashing-and-seed-pesticides-are-not-driving-health-problems-and-heres-why/

Basically, they claim that in a top 10 reasons for worry about bees, neonics and other pesticide losses come in at 11.

Say my name · 20-04-2018 9:39pm

Not a result but a 5 year trial about to begin in Canada examining the effects of feeding biochar to cattle.

http://www.betterfarming.com/digdeep/building-better-soil-biochar

Buford T. Justice XIX · 04-05-2018 1:56pm

I found this last night, a Chinese study about how different crop farming types influenced the social behaviour of those groups when they migrated to cities for work.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/china-coffee-shop-habits-show-cultural-differences-tied-farming?tgt=nr

Say my name · 27-05-2018 12:50pm

A bit of an interesting one.
Here's a brand spanking new idea about applying crushed basalt rock to farmland to
A) improve crop yields.

reduce the need for crop protection sprays because of more healthier plants from the increased trace elements and carbon.
C) Pull increased carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere as the soil bacteria, roots, rainfall break down the basalt.
D) Save the world from climate change.
I'll add but it's not on this link.
E) Decrease N2O emissions from soil by 40%.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-how-enhanced-weathering-could-slow-climate-change-and-boost-crop-yields

yosemitesam1 · 27-05-2018 4:41pm

Say my name wrote: »

A bit of an interesting one.
Here's a brand spanking new idea about applying crushed basalt rock to farmland to
A) improve crop yields.
reduce the need for crop protection sprays because of more healthier plants from the increased trace elements and carbon.
C) Pull increased carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere as the soil bacteria, roots, rainfall break down the basalt.
D) Save the world from climate change.
I'll add but it's not on this link.
E) Decrease N2O emissions from soil by 40%.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-how-enhanced-weathering-could-slow-climate-change-and-boost-crop-yields

Those numbers thrown in at the end would need some infrastructure and money to work. 50t/ha annually over millions of hectares is fantasy land stuff I would think. It'd be much easier and cheaper to just pay farmers to change practices, if €50/t co2 was given here there could be over 100t/ha for the majority of farms, tillage land could be 2-3 times as much...

Say my name · 27-05-2018 7:07pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Those numbers thrown in at the end would need some infrastructure and money to work. 50t/ha annually over millions of hectares is fantasy land stuff I would think. It'd be much easier and cheaper to just pay farmers to change practices, if €50/t co2 was given here there could be over 100t/ha for the majority of farms, tillage land could be 2-3 times as much...

Thanks for replying.
I was getting no thanks in this thread or replies so I was starting to wonder was anyone reading the posts and if it was worth the bother posting anymore. It wouldn't be a well supported thread either.

How and ever back to the issue at hand.
Yea those figures are just theoretical pie in the sky stuff.
Still though, permanent sequestering practices need to be carried out on farmland. The yield and fertility benefits do no harm either.

yosemitesam1 · 27-05-2018 7:49pm

Say my name wrote: »

Thanks for replying.
I was getting no thanks in this thread or replies so I was starting to wonder was anyone reading the posts and if it was worth the bother posting anymore. It wouldn't be a well supported thread either.

How and ever back to the issue at hand.
Yea those figures are just theoretical pie in the sky stuff.
Still though, permanent sequestering practices need to be carried out on farmland. The yield and fertility benefits do no harm either.

Ye there's probably nothing wrong with it, I don't think there'd be much of a benefit on my own farm but I think encouraging farmers directly would be better than something that will probably just make a few very rich from opening quarries

blue5000 · 27-05-2018 7:53pm

Say my name wrote: »

A bit of an interesting one.
Here's a brand spanking new idea about applying crushed basalt rock to farmland to
A) improve crop yields.
reduce the need for crop protection sprays because of more healthier plants from the increased trace elements and carbon.
C) Pull increased carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere as the soil bacteria, roots, rainfall break down the basalt.
D) Save the world from climate change.
I'll add but it's not on this link.
E) Decrease N2O emissions from soil by 40%.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-how-enhanced-weathering-could-slow-climate-change-and-boost-crop-yields

How much energy does it take to pulverise basalt?
'There are other challenges too. The process of mining, grinding and spreading rocks on a large-scale would likely have negative environmental and ecological impacts, and would therefore require careful management. Depending on the size of the grains of powder the rocks are pulverized down to, the energy demand could account for 10-30% of the amount of CO2 sequestered. Using renewable energy sources would minimise this.
'

Say my name · 27-05-2018 8:09pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Ye there's probably nothing wrong with it, I don't think there'd be much of a benefit on my own farm but I think encouraging farmers directly would be better than something that will probably just make a few very rich from opening quarries

Those rates are way too high on a yearly basis I'd think?. You'd upset any life in the soil too much and not give it much time to adjust properly.
Also the home of basalt applying (Brazil) they still apply lime with basalt. Mind you some out there claim to have found a way of just applying basalt and lime negating the use of chemical fertilisers.
I've gone to 5t/ac basalt. Even I'd be afraid to go much higher in an application and that was tried on a once off for my own interest. The article talks about 10t/ac/year. I'd want to be fairly sure of an economic benefit to myself before even thinking about it.
Also not all basalts are equal. Some suited to grassland some to fruit trees and some probably unusable.

Say my name · 27-05-2018 8:17pm

blue5000 wrote: »

How much energy does it take to pulverise basalt?
'There are other challenges too. The process of mining, grinding and spreading rocks on a large-scale would likely have negative environmental and ecological impacts, and would therefore require careful management. Depending on the size of the grains of powder the rocks are pulverized down to, the energy demand could account for 10-30% of the amount of CO2 sequestered. Using renewable energy sources would minimise this.
'

Most quarries though the primary purpose is to sell the bigger stone. Aggregates, concrete production, road making, sea armour, etc. The dust is the screenings left over from these.
They don't dump it but it's usually not the primary purpose and money maker for the quarry.
The renewable energy angle is a little bit wishful thinking not saying it couldn't be done in the future.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 02-06-2018 10:11pm

An interesting one here. A study saying the average risk to health from pesticide residues in food is equivalent to the risk of drinking a glass of wine every 7 years.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691517306877

Say my name · 03-06-2018 10:45am

In a kind of link in to Bufords post above about chemical residues.

Magnetite has been shown to speed up break down of chemical residue in soil.
Probably without it the residue would never break down.
Magnetite is also used as a catalyst in the Haber Bosch process of artificial nitrogen production. In the HB process it's ground into a fine dust and mixed with a smiggin of potassium before the process starts.
Magnetite is also produced from the burning of fossil fuels and coal and unfortunately it's thought nanoparticles of such inhaled could be the cause of Alzheimer's.
It's also naturally produced by the daily lives of bacteria and found in Basalts.

A small bit on the agricultural application of Magnetite here..
http://qmag.com/quality-magnetite-products-ideal-for-agricultural-applications/

Que everyone running out to test the Paramagnetism of their soil.

yosemitesam1 · 07-06-2018 7:41am

Teagasc are planting roundup resistant fescue for use in golf courses, could cause fun for lads reseeding if it catches on...

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/publications/2017/TodaysFarm-septoct2017-article15.pdf&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwipsrGp98DbAhULPhQKHeHbDIYQFggNMAA&usg=AOvVaw0ltgthWa7sCmyEuXUnqxpf

Mooooo · 07-06-2018 8:07am

Why the fcuk would they do that?

yosemitesam1 · 07-06-2018 10:20am

Mooooo wrote: »

Why the fcuk would they do that?

Dunno, but with the amount of spraying being done along roadsides I'd say it could definitely become a weed and spread across the country fairly fast

Say my name · 07-06-2018 10:39am

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Teagasc are planting roundup resistant fescue for use in golf courses, could cause fun for lads reseeding if it catches on...

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/publications/2017/TodaysFarm-septoct2017-article15.pdf&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwipsrGp98DbAhULPhQKHeHbDIYQFggNMAA&usg=AOvVaw0ltgthWa7sCmyEuXUnqxpf

It just amazes me the different outlooks and approaches that human beings have to a situation.

http://www.growtrade.ie/time-for-tea/

alps · 07-06-2018 11:26am

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Teagasc are planting roundup resistant fescue for use in golf courses, could cause fun for lads reseeding if it catches on...

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/publications/2017/TodaysFarm-septoct2017-article15.pdf&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwipsrGp98DbAhULPhQKHeHbDIYQFggNMAA&usg=AOvVaw0ltgthWa7sCmyEuXUnqxpf

How much is a typical teagasc golf course fee ? Do they pay a research fee like the dairy levy? 🤣

yosemitesam1 · 07-06-2018 11:27am

https://www.turfnet.com/news.html/_/usda-paves-way-for-glyphosate-resistant-fescue-r432

http://horticulture.oregonstate.edu/content/roundup-tolerant-tall-fescueperennial-ryegrass-trial

Hopefully its the second type they're growing but repeated applications of low rate glyphosate isn't good either

Buford T. Justice XIX · 18-06-2018 8:08pm

An interesting one here from the grass conference in Cork, measuring nitrogen fluctuations in groundwater levels over 10 years.

https://t-stor.teagasc.ie/handle/11019/521

ganmo · 18-06-2018 9:34pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

An interesting one here from the grass conference in Cork, measuring nitrogen fluctuations in groundwater levels over 10 years.

https://t-stor.teagasc.ie/handle/11019/521

I wonder if that is still ongoing, it’d be interesting to see pre and post quota

charolais0153 · 18-06-2018 10:24pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

An interesting one here from the grass conference in Cork, measuring nitrogen fluctuations in groundwater levels over 10 years.

https://t-stor.teagasc.ie/handle/11019/521

Low nitogen use....low milk price.

Say my name · 21-06-2018 11:09am

This could be included in here.

Farmer Simon Cowell making his own compost on 400 acres and has eliminated p and k purchases and reduced fungicide applications.

http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/farmer-urges-others-to-adopt-no-till-system-to-improve-soil-health-1-5536543

(Hopefully this thread stays open).

Edit: He's also been voted "Soil farmer of the year".

Say my name · 01-07-2018 10:44pm

The minions can't hide the truth from the commodity traders no more!!

A global system (eye in the sky) available to view what's the story about moisture in farmland whether in excess or deficit.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180601134729.htm

Say my name · 03-07-2018 9:30pm

A bit of info on the Square project.

Tweet from the workshop in Johnstown Castle in the last few days.

https://mobile.twitter.com/SQUARE_Project/status/1013720314042339328

blue5000 · 03-07-2018 9:43pm

Say my name wrote: »

The minions can't hide the truth from the commodity traders no more!!

A global system (eye in the sky) available to view what's the story about moisture in farmland whether in excess or deficit.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180601134729.htm

Perhaps we can fool them with min till?:D

ganmo · 03-07-2018 9:50pm

Say my name wrote: »

A bit of info on the Square project.

Tweet from the workshop in Johnstown Castle in the last few days.

https://mobile.twitter.com/SQUARE_Project/status/1013720314042339328

Olaf can be a hard man to listen to, knows his stuff though

Say my name · 03-07-2018 10:05pm

blue5000 wrote: »

Perhaps we can fool them with min till?:D

I don't know.

Me thinks they know too much already.
It's kind of global commodity, food planning on a earthwide scale.
It benefits society but not the farmer.

Say my name · 03-07-2018 10:24pm

ganmo wrote: »

Olaf can be a hard man to listen to, knows his stuff though

It's back to more life in the soil = More nutrients in the soil.
Did you ever wonder why that roadside verge grows so much grass with no input from a human hand? It's what they are alluding to and surprisingly they are teagasc. The much maligned supposedly supporters of the fertiliser industry.

The more varied bacteria you have. The more nutrients they can munch on and digest and poop. The more bacteria you have the more food for worms, fungi, nematodes, etc who feed on them and each other and nitrogen gets released as well as other by products of all this living jungle beneath our feet where ultimately the plants are the winners.

All bacteria need is heat, moisture, oxygen and a place out of the sun and then whatever food source they specialize in.

ganmo · 25-07-2018 5:38pm

Recently heard of a research programme using gene editing that was working on making pigs immune some viruses. They were waiting for a ruling from the eu if it would be classed as GMO to progress to the next stage.
And of course the eu has come out and said gene editing is GMO.

CRISPR is already in use in humans but as a result of this it won’t be allowed to be used in fruit, veg or animals in the food chain(I’m guessing they’re going to use it on cats and dogs soon).
All in all our food will be more natural than us

Buford T. Justice XIX · 07-08-2018 11:08am

A little piece on how plants use sugars in their cells to tell the time of day and the seasons.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180802141638.htm

yosemitesam1 · 08-08-2018 12:52pm

https://www.eatthispodcast.com/our-daily-bread-08/

Say my name · 08-08-2018 7:48pm

Researchers have found and are further breeding a maize corn that requires no artificial nitrogen applications.
Obviously the local farmers in Mexico had this the whole time and it was no discovery for them but dated back to probably the Aztecs. But lucky for them and the world they didn't get sideswiped by some glossy catalogue with pictures of fancy corn.
There obviously was agriculture before artificial fertilizers and sprays and still is in parts of the world.

Anyways important "discovery".
Maize corn that has aerial roots able to take it's nitrogen from the air.

https://www.ucdavis.edu/food/news/grow-food-crops-without-fertilizer/

yosemitesam1 · 03-09-2018 2:46pm

Herbs in pasture.

Also the English royal agricultural society's journals from 1840-1914

https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/bibliography/86012#/details

Upstream · 15-09-2018 1:34pm

Sustainable Soil Management: Soil for life
Free EdX online course from University of Wageningen
https://www.edx.org/course/sustainable-soil-management-soil-for-life

It's a twelve week course from one of the best universities in Europe.
It's a free course

Anyone else interested in signing up?

Siamsa Sessions · 17-09-2018 9:34am

Upstream wrote: »

Sustainable Soil Management: Soil for life
Free EdX online course from University of Wageningen
https://www.edx.org/course/sustainable-soil-management-soil-for-life

It's a twelve week course from one of the best universities in Europe.
It's a free course
Anyone else interested in signing up?

I'd be interested but have exams for green cert course over the next while. Have bookmarked the page though and will look it up when I've a bit more time.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 07-10-2018 8:50pm

I was wondering where to post this video about the birth of a gene deleted, rather than gene edited or added, calf in Brazil. The scientists located an absence of gene in a cattle breed that is heat resistant and proceeded to delete the same gene in a red Angus. They hope the new calf will show better heat resistance and thrive during the hot Summers and hope to have a large number on the ground in a few years, pending the decision whether this constitutes a GMO animal or not.

https://www.wsj.com/video/series/moving-upstream/this-gene-edited-calf-could-transform-brazil-beef-industry/D2D93B49-8251-405F-BC35-1E5C33FA08AF?mod=e2tw

Green&Red · 08-10-2018 1:59pm

Upstream wrote: »

Sustainable Soil Management: Soil for life
Free EdX online course from University of Wageningen
https://www.edx.org/course/sustainable-soil-management-soil-for-life

It's a twelve week course from one of the best universities in Europe.
It's a free course
Anyone else interested in signing up?

I've signed up, 8hrs per module is fairly saucy!

davidk1394 · 08-10-2018 3:43pm

Green&Red wrote: »

I've signed up, 8hrs per module is fairly saucy!

What do you get at the end ?

ganmo · 09-10-2018 12:57am

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I was wondering where to post this video about the birth of a gene deleted, rather than gene edited or added, calf in Brazil. The scientists located an absence of gene in a cattle breed that is heat resistant and proceeded to delete the same gene in a red Angus. They hope the new calf will show better heat resistance and thrive during the hot Summers and hope to have a large number on the ground in a few years, pending the decision whether this constitutes a GMO animal or not.

https://www.wsj.com/video/series/moving-upstream/this-gene-edited-calf-could-transform-brazil-beef-industry/D2D93B49-8251-405F-BC35-1E5C33FA08AF?mod=e2tw

the eu have ruled that it is a gmo so they have a big hill to climb

Buford T. Justice XIX · 09-10-2018 9:07pm

https://twitter.com/SBakerMD/status/1049696517177503745?s=19

Say my name · 09-10-2018 11:37pm

Since the Bufordmeister has a post up on climate change, here's what needs to be done to bring down the carbon in the atmosphere. The link to the farm science part is farming and soil management has a 99% role in doing so.

https://qz.com/1416481/the-ultimate-guide-to-negative-emission-technologies/

yosemitesam1 · 10-10-2018 7:59pm

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/10/trees-ireland-biodiversity-sitka-birds-extinction?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

Say my name · 11-10-2018 9:07pm

Comparing grass monocultures with 4 grass species swards in drought conditions in Wexford and Switzerland.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-33262-9

Spoiler alert. The farmers who sowed a single variety grass in pasture are going what da phuck did I do that for?

yosemitesam1 · 12-10-2018 8:36am

Say my name wrote: »

Comparing grass monocultures with 4 grass species swards in drought conditions in Wexford and Switzerland.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-33262-9

Spoiler alert. The farmers who sowed a single variety grass in pasture are going what da phuck did I do that for?

Wouldn't take too much from that. The mono cultures were either ryegrass, chicory, white clover or red clover. You wouldn't expect the others bar ryegrass to do well on their own and the n rate with cutting was the equivalent of grazing with 0n so not really going to do any favours for ryegrass monoculture.

Would've been much more useful had they included other grass species and also did a higher fert rate.

Farm science.

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