Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

RHJ · 05-02-2019 10:18pm

I wonder in certain circumstances would it be cheaper for the government to pay people to go abroad for treatment in a lower cost EU country?

SEPT 23 1989 · 05-02-2019 10:20pm

The neglect of cancer patients was when they went over the line

You won't get that support back

thomasdylan · 05-02-2019 10:32pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You are underpaid, mate.

Ye work crazy hours. Plus ye were left to hang out to dry by your consultants. I feel sorry for doctors in Ireland due to lack of support. I would have never ****ed over the basic grade pharmacists the way the consultants did to ye.

Yeah medicine is a disaster in Ireland, I'm getting out of it. Dangerously understaffed.

The consultants are in a different union to NCHDs but they did nothing when a 30% paycut for new consultants was brought in and the IMO has only ever gone on strike looking to cap shifts at 24h.

05-02-2019 10:35pm

thomasdylan wrote: »

Yeah medicine is a disaster in Ireland, I'm getting out of it. Dangerously understaffed.

The consultants are in a different union to NCHDs but they did nothing when a 30% paycut for new consultants was brought in and the IMO has only ever gone on strike looking to cap shifts at 24h.

Out of curiosity, what are you looking to get into? One of the people I did pharmacy with is gonna be starting as an junior doctor in two years at the age of 39. I think he's crazy.

TheRiverman · 05-02-2019 10:36pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

I think Leo should try and import foreign nurses to cross the picket lines and see how long they continue strike...

Union's are actual scum, they agreed a pay deal a few years ago...needed to make themselves relevant, and justify their union fee's. It's utter greed and I hope nobody dies while they are on strike(trying to grease their paws)

Familiarise yourself with what it is like to work on hospital wards at present,you obviously haven't a clue about the working conditions.

alloywheel · 05-02-2019 10:37pm

1641 wrote: »

But our pay scales do not compare unfavourably with Australia and the UK, where most who emigrate apparently go. The Public Service Pay Commission (with significant union people on board) concluded :

“Compared to a new entrant nurse in the English NHS, a new entrant nurse in Ireland earns 21 per cent more in basic pay based on current exchange rates. While allowances and promotional opportunities differ across jurisdictions, a nurse at the top of the HSE staff nurse scale would earn 39 per cent more than a nurse at the top of the NHS England B and 5 scale.

“More broadly, OECD nursing remuneration data show that, in purchasing power parity terms, Irish nursing pay (including allowances and premium payments) between 2007 and 2017 was consistently on a par with Australia and higher than New Zealand, Canada and the UK,” notes the spending review.

Well said. And still our nurses whinge here, even though they take more sickies here, are overstaffed here, and make more of a mess up over admin. Ask anyone waiting since last year for the results of tests, and who expected them today but who now has to wait another 6 weeks.

05-02-2019 10:47pm

alloywheel wrote: »

Well said. And still our nurses whinge here, even though they take more sickies here, are overstaffed here, and make more of a mess up over admin. Ask anyone waiting since last year for the results of tests, and who expected them today but who now has to wait another 6 weeks.

The one thing I would say is Irish hospitals are not overstaffed with nurses. To say otherwise is disingenuous. Also, here's a tip, if you are waiting to here about test results, that's usually a good sign.

thomasdylan · 05-02-2019 10:58pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what are you looking to get into? One of the people I did pharmacy with is gonna be starting as an junior doctor in two years at the age of 39. I think he's crazy.

I think he's crazy too. You don't want to be doing call for crap pay in your 40s when you should be in bed or with your kids.

I'd probably be looking at medical reviewing, writing or liason for pharma companies. There's a few options out there. I've done some part-time lecturing but the pay isn't great. I've a friend who left medicine a few years ago and works in the city in London who has tried to convince me to try finance/wealth management but I have no interest and have had my fill of exams.

alloywheel · 05-02-2019 10:58pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The one thing I would say is Irish hospitals are not overstaffed with nurses.

Compared to what the taxpayer is paying, yes there is overstaffing. Problem is, a lot of it is in admin, and poor organization. Hence waiting lists etc are so long, and service so poor. Do not forget " Ireland spends €4,706 per head of population on healthcare, one-third more than the average across 35 member countries of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.Jun 29, 2018"

wrangler · 05-02-2019 11:01pm

alloywheel wrote: »

Compared to what the taxpayer is paying, yes there is overstaffing. Problem is, a lot of it is in admin, and poor organization. Hence waiting lists etc are so long, and service so poor. Do not forget " Ireland spends €4,706 per head of population on healthcare, one-third more than the average across 35 member countries of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.Jun 29, 2018"

Confirms what I suspected so

alloywheel · 05-02-2019 11:01pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, here's a tip, if you are waiting to here about test results, that's usually a good sign.

Except sometimes when they tell people they are ok, they are not. And sometimes people die having waited a year or 2 for a correct result.
Shame on our HSE staff...not all of them, but some of them are greedy and selfish. Ask the thousands of taxpayers today who were put out for another few months.

c.p.w.g.w · 05-02-2019 11:02pm

TheRiverman wrote: »

Familiarise yourself with what it is like to work on hospital wards at present,you obviously haven't a clue about the working conditions.

The government will discuss conditions, but not pay...yet they are still strike. They were full of lies that it's about conditions...

Twenty Grand · 05-02-2019 11:09pm

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Basically said they are misrepresented?? sounds convincing.

Hah, this place really is becoming an echo chamber.

As you well know (because myself and other have told you) the OECD stats are inaccurate, and it even says so in the report!!

But carry on holding onto a few false sources because they back your point of view.
Have you even read the report? It's only 20 odd pages long.

Absolutely pathetic.

byhookorbycrook · 05-02-2019 11:14pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

And if they get the money I'd bet the house you lot will be the next in line to strike.

"You lot?"

judeboy101 · 05-02-2019 11:15pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Why would a nurse want to work in this country when you can go ab

Because abroad is full of foreigners.

alloywheel · 05-02-2019 11:15pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

"You lot?"

teachers

Squatter · 05-02-2019 11:15pm

TheRiverman wrote: »

Familiarise yourself with what it is like to work on hospital wards at present,you obviously haven't a clue about the working conditions.

The logical fallacy of that post is that it assumes that the nursing workload in every ward in every hospital in the country is the same. But it isn't!

However, if the INMO gets its way then every member of each nursing grade will get the same pay increase, irrespective of the workload in their particular ward/hospital. That's the problem with centralised bargaining - the Union is demanding that the comfort-zoners in the step-down wards of the smaller rural hospitals be paid the exact same rate as the frontline nurses in the major teaching hospitals where the stress levels are significantly higher.

I don't have a handy solution to the problem (not even the kind of glib soundbyte that that Phil Ni Shéa might come out with during a RTE interview) , but the one thing that I'm 100% certain of is that throwing large swodges of taxpayers' funds at every single nursing grade across the entire PH system isn't the answer.

hawkelady · 05-02-2019 11:18pm

alloywheel wrote: »

Except sometimes when they tell people they are ok, they are not. And sometimes people die having waited a year or 2 for a correct result.
Shame on our HSE staff...not all of them, but some of them are greedy and selfish. Ask the thousands of taxpayers today who were put out for another few months.

Nurses are taxpayers too you know !!! You sound quite salty , should maybe go to a&e about it !!

05-02-2019 11:18pm

alloywheel wrote: »

Compared to what the taxpayer is paying, yes there is overstaffing. Problem is, a lot of it is in admin, and poor organization. Hence waiting lists etc are so long, and service so poor. Do not forget " Ireland spends €4,706 per head of population on healthcare, one-third more than the average across 35 member countries of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.Jun 29, 2018"

How does that equate to nurse staffing levels? Let's be honest, you have shown that you haven't a scooby how hospitals work in the republic. I will agree there are gross inefficiencies in the HSE. That's due more to unnecessary red tape, interference by pharmaceutical companies etc.

alloywheel · 05-02-2019 11:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

you have shown that you haven't a scooby how hospitals work in the republic.

lol. We all know how they do not work in this country, most of us have friends, relations and acquaintances who work in the HSE. We all visit the place at some stage, and many people end up needing to stay there or at the bedside of a loved one. And people are allowed to see what goes on and have an opinion. Even those kept waiting ages for treatment.

Gorteen · 05-02-2019 11:25pm

Let's put this strike in context...

INMO signed up for Public Services Stability Agreement for guaranteed pay restoration...

Then they change their mind and embark on industrial action.
Today, 27,000 appointments cancelled and even worse, cancer surgery cancelled!!!

Further strikes later this week and next week and beyond... Likely to be considerably more cancellations in areas where the most vulnerable in society are going to be affected... How can this be considered in the best interests of patients????

alloywheel · 05-02-2019 11:27pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I will agree there are gross inefficiencies in the HSE. That's due more to unnecessary red tape, interference by pharmaceutical companies etc.

How is it in our neighbouring island there are not these gross inefficiencies. How come they do not have as much unnecessary red tape, interference by pharmaceutical companies etc? How come the taxpayer there gets much better value for money AND a better service?

alloywheel · 05-02-2019 11:29pm

Gorteen wrote: »

Then they change their mind and embark on industrial action.
Today, 27,000 appointments cancelled and even worse, cancer surgery cancelled!!!

I have seen their sloppy treatment of cancer patients in the past. If IU was related to someone today who was scheduled for cancer surgery and it was cancelled as a result of the greedy nurses strike, who would not harbour the same thoughts as Liam Neeson?

Goldengirl · 05-02-2019 11:33pm

1641 wrote: »

Are your comments above not contradictory? If it is just about retention then discuss retention issues. I think the INMO is being disingenuous about this. And I think many individual nurses have convinced themselves that this strike is all for altruistic reasons because that view fits more comfortably with their self-image as the caring profession par excellance.

I will repeat what I said in response to Peterjmaxwell (post 2049):

But our pay scales do not compare unfavourably with Australia and the UK, where most who emigrate apparently go. The Public Service Pay Commission (with significant union people on board) concluded :

“Compared to a new entrant nurse in the English NHS, a new entrant nurse in Ireland earns 21 per cent more in basic pay based on current exchange rates. While allowances and promotional opportunities differ across jurisdictions, a nurse at the top of the HSE staff nurse scale would earn 39 per cent more than a nurse at the top of the NHS England B and 5 scale.

“More broadly, OECD nursing remuneration data show that, in purchasing power parity terms, Irish nursing pay (including allowances and premium payments) between 2007 and 2017 was consistently on a par with Australia and higher than New Zealand, Canada and the UK,” notes the spending review.

So they must be leaving for other reasons. Some probably because they want to see the world, experience different cultures, work in different environments, etc. There is not much we can do about that. Some others may go because of issues in our system, eg, to do with career development, supervision, further training, etc. etc. The management side and (this evening) the Government have offered to meet to discuss how these type of issues could be addressed. The Pay Commission recommended targetted increases in selected specialities. The INMO have rejected any of this. They want increase for everyone, plain and simple (although they pocketed the increases in the public service pay agreement).

By the way, the UK has a shortage of nurses because they decimated their training places during the recession and have not recovered from this. They obviously find it cheaper to take our nurses out of training than to provide sufficient training places themselves.There probably isn't much we can do about this.

No , conditions alone will not sort the staffing crisis, except for nurses already working in the system . Newly qualified nurses are going elsewhere where both pay and conditions are better and while some nurses have al ways travelled, these nurses are not returning after a year or two. Many are staying to live .

Squatter · 05-02-2019 11:35pm

Gorteen wrote: »

Let's put this strike in context...

INMO signed up for Public Services Stability Agreement for guaranteed pay restoration...

Then they change their mind and embark on industrial action.
Today, 27,000 appointments cancelled and even worse, cancer surgery cancelled!!!

Further strikes later this week and next week and beyond... Likely to be considerably more cancellations in areas where the most vulnerable in society are going to be affected... How can this be considered in the best interests of patients????

It's worth remembering that the INMO's sole role is to represent its members and to get the best deal that it can for them.

And, as the "caring profession" nurses currently occupy the moral high ground so they can get away with treating patients as mere pawns on the IR chessboard for as long as the public is of the opinion that the government is the baddie in this dispute.

05-02-2019 11:38pm

alloywheel wrote: »

lol. We all know how they do not work in this country, most of us have friends, relations and acquaintances who work in the HSE. We all visit the place at some stage, and many people end up needing to stay there or at the bedside of a loved one. And people are allowed to see what goes on and have an opinion. Even those kept waiting ages for treatment.

So I'm a pharmacist. What's my role in the HSE? What do you think I do from your observations?

Ginger83 · 05-02-2019 11:39pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

I think Leo should try and import foreign nurses to cross the picket lines and see how long they continue strike...

Union's are actual scum, they agreed a pay deal a few years ago...needed to make themselves relevant, and justify their union fee's. It's utter greed and I hope nobody dies while they are on strike(trying to grease their paws)

Haha sure they cant get nurses as it is

Goldengirl · 05-02-2019 11:40pm

pjohnson wrote: »

So pay is what they care about. Good you admit that much anyway.

No again, I said conditions " alone " are a sop! Alone that will not address the problems with recruitment and retention.

05-02-2019 11:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I will agree there are gross inefficiencies in the HSE. That's due more to unnecessary red tape, interference by pharmaceutical companies etc.

And inflexibility by the unions, competition among the unions and between staff groups, demarcations, self-contradictory management, etc.

There is no one source of the problem. And no group can claim exemption from their share of responsibility.

I know any one individul feels validly that there is little they can do regarding overall inefficiency. But as it is it is a black hole for money. And all anyone or any group seems to do is demand more money to "meet service needs".
Ask anyone, or any group, and they will say "but the problem is over there". Never looking at own collective responsibility.

It is hard to see how it can be resolved. But not by throwing money at it.

c.p.w.g.w · 05-02-2019 11:44pm

Ginger83 wrote: »

Haha sure they cant get nurses as it is

Only in trauma and theatre not all areas of nursing

alloywheel · 05-02-2019 11:45pm

Staffing crises? How many beds have they to look after?
Ireland has the fourth-lowest number of hospital beds relative to its population, according to an OECD report.

With 2.3 beds per 1,000 of population, Ireland ranks just above Denmark, the UK and Sweden, but has barely one-third of the number of beds in Germany, the Health at a Glance report finds.

Critics of the Irish health system have repeatedly called for an increase in the number of hospital beds, with last year’s Sláintecare report putting the number needed at 2,600 at a minimum.

The death rate from respiratory diseases in Ireland is the second highest in Europe behind the UK, despite lower levels of air pollution. Some 236 people died from exposure to air pollution in 2016, and 11 from extreme weather conditions, the same year.

Health spending in Ireland, at €3,930 per capita, is fifth highest, behind Luxembourg, Germany, Sweden and Austria. Spending on retail pharmaceuticals here is second highest on a per capita basis.

Ireland has the fifth-highest number of nurses.

alloywheel · 05-02-2019 11:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What's my role in the HSE?

If you do not know, there is a problem in the system. I personally do not care what your role is in the HSE, or even if you work in the HSE.

05-02-2019 11:48pm

alloywheel wrote: »

How is it in our neighbouring island there are not these gross inefficiencies. How come they do not have as much unnecessary red tape, interference by pharmaceutical companies etc? How come the taxpayer there gets much better value for money AND a better service?

So in the NHS, pharmaceuticals can not make payments to doctors or pharmacists, can't pay for them to go to conferences unless they are presenting. Also, any payments from pharmaceuticals have to be publicly declared. Need to actually have a medicines management. Some patients here get started on humira without even trying a DMARD. Nurses to have more responsibilities to take pressures off doctors. Investment in pharmacy to actually do discharges for patients. A way of electronically seeing what meds patients are prescribed by their GPs. Proper antimicrobial stewardship. Doctors not to work over the EWTD. Community pharmacies to be considered a port of call before attending A+E. Smoking cessation to be provided free of charge to all people and this to offered at community pharmacy level. Medications to always be given as the cheapest generic (I'm including biosimilars in this). Increased roles for OTs, physios, dieticians. I could go on....

05-02-2019 11:51pm

alloywheel wrote: »

If you do not know, there is a problem in the system. I personally do not care what your role is in the HSE, or even if you work in the HSE.

That's what's wrong with the general public. Full of complaints but an unwillingness to engage. The fact that you are unwilling to engage shows you haven't a clue.

Also, it's not really an issue about bed numbers. The important figure is how long somebody spends in that bed.

alloywheel · 05-02-2019 11:56pm

I would suspect there is not as much corruption in the HSE either, with pharmacists getting weekends away to Ashford Castle and three figure gift vouchers (paid for by pharmaceutical companies) and such like.

Miike · 05-02-2019 11:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

That's what's wrong with the general public. Full of complaints but an unwillingness to engage. The fact that you are unwilling to engage shows you haven't a clue.

Also, it's not really an issue about bed numbers. The important figure is how long somebody spends in that bed.

and the people who can't get a bed to occupy

06-02-2019 12:01am

Miike wrote: »

and the people who can't get a bed to occupy

Hmmm. Employ bed managers. Personally. I hate bed managers but I can see their usefulness from a hospital flow point.

06-02-2019 12:03am

alloywheel wrote: »

I would suspect there is not as much corruption in the HSE either, with pharmacists getting weekends away to Ashford Castle and three figure gift vouchers (paid for by pharmaceutical companies) and such like.

This is true. I said that the Irish health system is more open to corruption. I've personally rejected holidays to Barbados, San Fran and Singapore in the last year as I don't want any particular pharmaceutical company to have a sway on me.

alloywheel · 06-02-2019 12:05am

Deleted User wrote: »

This is true. I said that the Irish health system is more open to corruption. I've personally rejected holidays to Barbados, San Fran and Singapore in the last year as I don't want any particular pharmaceutical company to have a sway on me.

Fair play to you, at least you are honest, I'll say that for you. Many people in the private sector though are aware of who the gift vouchers are for when they sell them to the pharmaceutical companies, who openly admit they are for staff in the hospital.

I'd love to know what brown envelopes were involved in the planning for the new Childrens hospital, I guess we'll never know.

Miike · 06-02-2019 12:09am

Deleted User wrote: »

Hmmm. Employ bed managers. Personally. I hate bed managers but I can see their usefulness from a hospital flow point.

Bed manager posts are brimmed as we speak! Like hens teeth :pac:

Goldengirl · 06-02-2019 12:10am

salonfire wrote: »

The INMO literally contradicted you a few hours ago, rejecting Govt talks on improving conditions bar pay.

You are not the voice of nurses so please drop the holier than thou attitude. They are out for their cash grab. Despite having already agreed to increases this year and next.

Did I hit a nerve there? I can't help if I feel passionate about nurses being advocates , and it's your problem if you feel that we are insincere, not mine. So I will not amend either my attitude or my speech to suit you or anyone else here. Indeed all the nurses I know feel the same so maybe we are all holier than thou.
Heard Leo had to apologise in the Dail for the disrespectful way the INMO were asked to come to talks about conditions, via the news media??? No proper communication, just to an interviewer... how is that acceptable to anyone who is serious about negotiating ? They refused to seriously engage at the Labour Relations Commision, stayed outside talking in the corridor, while the INMO and negotiators were inside waiting for them .
You know they don't care about the health service. It has been mishandled and underfunded for years , and as long as they can afford to go private , with the higher and higher pay they give themselves, why should they bother!

This government operates by soundbite and selfies, they haven't a clue how to conduct themselves.

06-02-2019 12:10am

Deleted User wrote: »

This is true. I said that the Irish health system is more open to corruption. I've personally rejected holidays to Barbados, San Fran and Singapore in the last year as I don't want any particular pharmaceutical company to have a sway on me.

Surely with your eight months holidays per year you could find the time Dazzler! :pac:

06-02-2019 12:11am

alloywheel wrote: »

Fair play to you, at least you are honest, I'll say that for you. Many people in the private sector though are aware of who the gift vouchers are for when they sell them to the pharmaceutical companies, who openly admit they are for staff in the hospital.

I'd l;ove to know what brown envelopes were involved in the planning for the new Childrens hospital, I guess we'll never know.

I agree. I can understand the rationale, get an acute med consultant to favour apixaban over rivaroxaban and then you have a guaranteed customer until they die.

Rule number one of pharmacy. Never trust a pharmaceutical rep.

Miike · 06-02-2019 12:11am

Deleted User wrote: »

This is true. I said that the Irish health system is more open to corruption. I've personally rejected holidays to Barbados, San Fran and Singapore in the last year as I don't want any particular pharmaceutical company to have a sway on me.

https://www.transferofvalue.ie/

It's outdated but still gives just an idea of what kind of stuff is going on on a microscopic scale. I'd love to see Mylans "expenses"

06-02-2019 12:12am

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Surely with your eight months holidays per year you could find the time Dazzler! :pac:

Actually have less holidays than I had in the NHS.

Goldengirl · 06-02-2019 12:13am

salonfire wrote: »

Exactly, it's all a sop.

All the tear jerking stories about the conditions is just pure propaganda. Pay is their primary concern.

If the conditions were so intolerable, why reject talks to improve them.

Again, see my previous post for your answer.ðŸ™„.

06-02-2019 12:14am

Miike wrote: »

https://www.transferofvalue.ie/

It's outdated but still gives just an idea of what kind of stuff is going on on a microscopic scale. I'd love to see Mylans "expenses"

I know many people on that list. My name isn't on there and it never will be. Any decisions I make will be based solely on clinical expertise. But yeah, the pharmaceutical industry has a massive sway on Irish healthcare.

Goldengirl · 06-02-2019 12:18am

Mrsmum wrote: »

I'd say a lot of nurses do actually think they are badly paid in comparison to nurses in other countries even though they are actually not. The male nurse in the Claire Byrne show just now who said it did come down to money definitely did genuinely seem to believe that. And of course when anyone goes abroad what do they always tell everyone back home except that things are totally fantastic over there which feeds into this narrative that the grass is much greener away. So imo nurses have themselves convinced of 'facts' that aren't facts at all.

Really ? You think so.? Do you think a nurse can't Google pay and salaries like anyone else, and doesn't understand "facts" ? Very nice,

Miike · 06-02-2019 12:19am

Deleted User wrote: »

I know many people on that list. My name isn't on there and it never will be. Any decisions I make will be based solely on clinical expertise. But yeah, the pharmaceutical industry has a massive sway on Irish healthcare.

I know far, far too many people on that list. It's pathetic how it's just... allowed. I'll never fully grasp it.

06-02-2019 12:21am

Miike wrote: »

I know far, far too many people on that list. It's pathetic how it's just... allowed. I'll never fully grasp it.

To be fair, I had an offer to work in a paeds hospital in the UAE a couple of years ago. In that sitaution, I would prob have taken all the pharmaceutical companies money. But I'd never do it in my home country.

Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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