€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

mikegermany · 20-12-2018 10:08am

The newish super-hospital in Glasgow cost just over a billion euro

Over 1100 beds total

Approx 3/4 for the adult hospital and just under 300 beds for the adjoining children's hospital

Feisar · 20-12-2018 11:11am

Podge_irl wrote: »

It doesn't have to be the lowest offer, but the criteria have to be laid out beforehand. The issue here is more that the estimate was massively under the tenders received.

It doesn't have to be however the criteria are heavily weighted so that price is basically the only real factor.

Tefral · 20-12-2018 11:14am

twinytwo wrote: »

One thing that is seemingly never introduced in government contracts is fixed pricing. If the build goes over budget there should be penalties in place.

Actually the GCCC form of contract is a fixed price contract. There must have been additional items added to the drawings and specifications byt he design team. I also know this to be true as i know quite a few suppliers working away in the back ground on this.

I also know BAM's MO is to go in low and then flood the design team with Clause 10 claims for information and extensions of time etc.

mikegermany · 20-12-2018 11:23am

What's the 'cost per bed' then?

Must be around 6 million lol

Tefral · 20-12-2018 11:34am

mikegermany wrote: »

What's the 'cost per bed' then?

Must be around 6 million lol

Theres 473 beds going into it i believe. 380 room and 93 daycare rooms.

So roughly 2.96m per bed.

The original design didn't include for as many operating rooms, There's a medical college dept going in there also which wasnt originally allowed for.

jmayo · 20-12-2018 11:39am

Podge_irl wrote: »

No, but James' is the best connected hospital by public transport.

Best connected in Ireland is hardly the same as London.

Podge_irl wrote: »

So is your issue with the level of public transport or the concept of travelling via public transport? Ambulances aren't about to deposit people at a train station to pop up to Heuston. The vast majority of people flowing in and out of the hospital will not be critically ill children. The new NCH will have, incidentally, about 500 parking spaces in it.

Who the feck is going to use public transport to get from anywhere in Ireland to Dublin with a child that is need of some sort of treatment?
Public transport in Ireland is slow, not connected which means it is fecking useless for all, but the healthy lucky ones or the determined ones.
Somehow I think you are the latter.

BTW when you speak of 500 spaces, how many has the James hospital site lost already due to the development there?

Podge_irl wrote: »

They are developing units in Tallaght and Connolly because they are more easily accessible. But the highly specialised care will be done in the NCH where it can be done best. They are literally trying to both address concerns about access while maintaining the best standards of care and people are complaining about the cost. Tallaght and Connolly are also almost completely inaccessible for people without a car.

Isn't that totally defeating the whole thing and actually a full admission that access to James site is problematic already before it has even opened, sorry been built.

Podge_irl wrote: »

What this is an example of is a political party not interfering in a decision and following expert advice. But apparently everyone else knows better because the single most important factor in a hospital is how easy it is to drive to it.

You can expert advice to back almost any decision you make.
Hell there are experts out there that advice people that there is no climate change and mankind has nothing to do with it.

BTW wasn't there expert advice that the Mater was the best site ?

No it is not just how easy it is to drive to.
It is available space for expansion, you know plan for tomorrow and not just yesterday. :rolleyes:

Podge_irl wrote: »

Two massive hospitals, so that it is co-located with a tertiary referral hospital. That is quite the investment.

Also it turns out doctors are actually people and can not in fact be moved like furniture.

Just for clarification, what people actually seem to want is more political interference in infrastructure decisions and a focus on money over providing best services to people?

People move for work everyday, but I get your point.
These are employees of our health system where staff have demanded compensation for moving a mile down the road, where staff have refused to move to a new maternity hospital when it opened, supposedly on safety grounds, but really it is they hadn't got a kickback.

BTW lets hang our credentials here, do you work in health service or are close to someone that does ?
I do have someone close working in health service.

Anita Blow wrote: »

It does provide increased bed capacity? The NCH provides 400+ single rooms (our current hospitals have up to 6 beds in a ward). Temple St has 94 inpatient beds, Crumlin 187 beds and Tallaght has a very small paediatric dept so its about 300 beds in total. In addition to this there will be inpatient beds in the new satellite centres so capacity can be significantly increased.

I thought the new satellite centres were meant to be emergency, you now say they have inpatient beds as well ?

So we are spending a fortune on this new chrildrens hospital, but we also have to spend on Tallaght and Connolly anyway because James site is inaccessible?
FFS a typical Irish solution.

Anita Blow wrote: »

Proposing to build an entirely new adult hospital was dealt with in the Dolphin report. They ultimately advised against it because it would cost multiples of what the current NCH is costing and we don't have the population nor budget to support a 6th adult tertiary hospital.

If traffic becomes a major issue then the area around the hospital can be CPO'd and roads widened for a fraction of that price.

It already is if you ask anyone that has anything to do with James.

Do you actually live in Ireland at all.
How long did it take for Luas to manage a fraction of that with regards CPOs?

I think I recall you always being very gungho about the James site ?
I wonder why:rolleyes:

jmayo · 20-12-2018 11:40am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

FG aren't responsible for this. FG are only responsible for the good things that happen in Ireland. Everything else someone else needs to take personal responsibility.

They are very responsible for this.
But so are our HSE and health service.
And so is every politician of every shade and for that matter the citizens of this state.
Why?
Well because everytime anyone has an idea about reforming the system they are shot down and there are protests and marches organised.

What do you think would happen if the government, any government, said in the morning they were laying off all the duplicate admin staff in the HSE, rationalising the management and forcing in new contracts for consultants ??

There would be uproar from every politician in opposition and half the backbenchers would be foaming at the mouth.

If a minister suddenly started forcing HSE and Dept of Health to fire people for incompetency the unions and representative bodies would be calling for strikes.
Besides by the looks of it half the staff would be gone.

mikegermany · 20-12-2018 11:43am

Tefral wrote: »

Theres 473 beds going into it i believe. 380 room and 93 daycare rooms.

So roughly 2.96m per bed.

The original design didn't include for as many operating rooms, There's a medical college dept going in there also which wasnt originally allowed for.

I thought it was much lower

The same delays and bottlenecks will be there after this large capital spend

gctest50 · 20-12-2018 11:47am

Being Ireland, someone somewhere got a brown envelope to "spare" the m50 site for a new private childrens hospital

So then you'll have a choice :

you could bring your child to nice private hospital where we've accelerators n all the shiny stuff and they all know what they're doing

or be packed like ants into the anthill that is nch

smurgen · 20-12-2018 11:52am

thecomedian wrote: »

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I don't know how the good folks at BAM keep a straight face when they are presenting their revised figures to the gombeens

Do you realize that it could go to court if the lowest offer isn’t accepted. Which could take god knows how long to get through and could delay the build

If your tendered amount is out by the final cost by over 50% it should end up in court

Tefral · 20-12-2018 12:04pm

smurgen wrote: »

If your tendered amount is out by the final cost by over 50% it should end up in court

Tenders don't just magically expand without oversight. They are expanded by design changes.

smurgen · 20-12-2018 2:29pm

Tefral wrote: »

smurgen wrote: »

If your tendered amount is out by the final cost by over 50% it should end up in court

Tenders don't just magically expand without oversight. They are expanded by design changes.

Did the design change include increasing the size of the hospital by 2.5 times the original size because that's probably the only way i would see the jump in cost of that magnitude being justified.also no coincidence it's BAM involved here. They same crowd who pulled a trick on the events centre in Cork.the turning of the soil on that site was 3 years ago and ever since they've being trying to hustle more money from the government and building has not started. Maybe they should be suspended from bidding on new projects.

_Brian · 20-12-2018 2:31pm

Considerably portion of me doesn’t care about the over run, just build the damn thing.

beauf · 20-12-2018 2:41pm

_Brian wrote: »

Considerably portion of me doesn’t care about the over run, just build the damn thing.

I think that become part of many projects strategy. Make people so tired of it they'll accept anything anywhere. They give in effect. Giving up then is used as if its acceptance of a project.

thecomedian · 20-12-2018 2:49pm

smurgen wrote: »

If your tendered amount is out by the final cost by over 50% it should end up in court

You wouldn’t want to bring BAM to court!ðŸ™‚

jmayo · 20-12-2018 2:54pm

The fallout from this is far reaching as other projects in other hospitals such as ward and bed rollouts are being postponed.
Also the general HSE capital and spending budgets are getting chopped.

And as sure as shyte the Connolly and Tallaght satellites that are being built for emergency treatment access will get chopped as well.

beauf · 20-12-2018 3:25pm

The Connolly was well advanced in the summer when I last passed by.

Tefral · 20-12-2018 5:20pm

smurgen wrote: »

Did the design change include increasing the size of the hospital by 2.5 times the original size because that's probably the only way i would see the jump in cost of that magnitude being justified.also no coincidence it's BAM involved here. They same crowd who pulled a trick on the events centre in Cork.the turning of the soil on that site was 3 years ago and ever since they've being trying to hustle more money from the government and building has not started. Maybe they should be suspended from bidding on new projects.

I dont know about Cork, but I do know their MO is to go in as low as possible and exploit weaknesses in the design. The thing is Contractors are in it for money and nothing else.

If the designs were better and frozen there would be no changes to the contract because it would be impossible. I've seen first hand how sh1t drawings are from the design teams and these weaknesses cost money throughout the construction phase,

The Bishop Basher · 20-12-2018 11:16pm

Anita Blow wrote: »

it was concluded that to move St James' would be so prohibitively expensive and large in scale that it would take decades.

This current project will turn out to be prohibitively expensive and will take decades to complete. It’s taken us 25 years to get this far ffs.

Only difference is with your plan we’ll end up with a hospital that’s inaccessible to all but those that live close to Dublin city centre.

Still though, at least the consultants don’t have to take a different route to work everyday.

However given the cost to the taxpayer, i’d prefer it was a little bit more inclusive myself..

Kivaro · 22-12-2018 10:52am

€1.73 Billion.
That is the new projected cost in a confidential memo given to Simon Harris, according to the Irish Times.
Just in case that number doesn't sink in, it is €1,730,000,000.
Even in Irish (corrupt) standards, it is a staggering number.
Wonder how many millionaires will be made (or current millionaires made richer, more likely) after this fiasco runs its course.

Due to the massive cost overrun, a number of substantial healthcare projects will have to be "curtailed" or even halted in order to contribute to the escalating costs of the new children's hospital.

From the Irish Times:

Ministers were given a list of projects, including a €10 million development of extra hospital beds in Limerick, a €56 million investment in 90 long-term residential care facilities for older people in 11 counties and primary care centres in Clondalkin, Sligo and Monaghan that could be affected by the need to fund cost overruns at the new hospital.

And it doesn't stop there:

Other projects that may be shelved include the development of accommodation in the community for people with disabilities moving out of institutions, new laboratories and theatres at the Coombe hospital, and a planned €3.4 million investment in paediatric and blood services.

It also suggested the second cath lab at Waterford General Hospital and planned new emergency department and cystic fibrosis facilities at Beaumont Hospital in Dublin could be affected.

As much as I hate the current structure of the EU, they need to step in and stop this lunacy from progressing further.
A lot of us have been around long enough to know that the final bill for the new hospital could reach €2 Billion. Why? Because it is such a nice round number ......... to siphon from.

Good reporting from the Irish Times.

The Bishop Basher · 22-12-2018 11:19am

Kivaro wrote: »

As much as I hate the current structure of the EU, they need to step in and stop this lunacy from progressing further.
A lot of us have been around long enough to know that the final bill for the new hospital could reach €2 Billion. Why? Because it is such a nice round number ......... to siphon from.

Agreed on all counts..

The final figure will be much greater then anything they're currently projecting.

And as much as I despise the EU, we have shown ourselves, time and time again, to be utterly incapable of managing our own affairs.

I don't know what the answer to that is but the EU is pretty much all we've got for now.

22-12-2018 11:40am

Obviously it's a sensitive topic but how big of a difference is this hospital supposed to make? How many sick kids is it actually going to make a difference to? And how will it make that difference more efficiently than spending the money in other ways? FFS we could fly a few hundred specialists and their equipment in and put them up in lovely houses and pay them handsomely. It's a vast, ridiculous amount of money.

salmocab · 22-12-2018 1:04pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Obviously it's a sensitive topic but how big of a difference is this hospital supposed to make? How many sick kids is it actually going to make a difference to? And how will it make that difference more efficiently than spending the money in other ways? FFS we could fly a few hundred specialists and their equipment in and put them up in lovely houses and pay them handsomely. It's a vast, ridiculous amount of money.

In fairness it’s much needed the two children’s hospitals are very old and need replacing or complete overhauls. They could be done up cheaper but they can’t really be expanded. More space is needed for beds and new technologies. I’ve been to our lady’s a few times over the years and there is a lot of queuing in corridors going on, it’s just too small for what’s in it now.

The Bishop Basher · 22-12-2018 1:12pm

salmocab wrote: »

In fairness it’s much needed the two children’s hospitals are very old and need replacing or complete overhauls. They could be done up cheaper but they can’t really be expanded. More space is needed for beds and new technologies. I’ve been to our lady’s a few times over the years and there is a lot of queuing in corridors going on, it’s just too small for what’s in it now.

I haven’t seen anyone suggest the new hospital isn’t needed.

But we’re spending €2 billion plus on a hospital with major access issues that will bring misery to those that need it most.

Not to mention the extra and unnecessary cost in bulding on the site of a working hospital in the middle of a congested city.

salmocab · 22-12-2018 1:18pm

Rennaws wrote: »

I haven’t seen anyone suggest the new hospital isn’t needed.
.

The post I quoted was effectively asking if it was necessary

nice_guy80 · 22-12-2018 1:21pm

They are idiots

1 put hospital in city location which inflates costs
2 have it on a site owned by religious order
3 try to make hospital paperless, which hasn't been achieved anywhere in thge world btw

A friend of mine who worked in IT in crumlin 10 years ago said they were going to try this and that it would be pie in the sky

22-12-2018 1:33pm

salmocab wrote: »

The post I quoted was effectively asking if it was necessary

I meant more why is this plan the be all and end all.

beauf · 22-12-2018 1:44pm

That was the main problem with Temple Street. Very old, poorly laid out, no room to expand and no parking. Moving it to Mater had similar issues, so they moved it to James which also has the same issues.

All of this would be obvious if you've ever used these places.

So if the locations don't fix some of the core issues of the existing locations. Then there be must be some other reason for the locations being chosen.

At this point it so far along it can't be stopped. I hope the politicians who caused this are remembered for what they created here.

salmocab · 22-12-2018 1:45pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I meant more why is this plan the be all and end all.

Well the move needs to happen and can’t be delayed much more. It’s almost certainly not the optimum long term plan but it’s committed to now and looks like it will happen despite many reasons it shouldn’t but the medical reasons for doing it outweigh the financial not to atvthis stage.

beauf · 22-12-2018 1:50pm

It seems the financial ones may have a huge negative impact not only on this one but a lot of other projects. It might eat itself.

Wildly Boaring · 22-12-2018 2:06pm

Tefral wrote: »

Actually the GCCC form of contract is a fixed price contract. There must have been additional items added to the drawings and specifications byt he design team. I also know this to be true as i know quite a few suppliers working away in the back ground on this.

I also know BAM's MO is to go in low and then flood the design team with Clause 10 claims for information and extensions of time etc.

Yeah no involvement in this project but this is the nutshell here.

GCCC is fixed price lump sum and generally design and build.

I have been on a major HSE job, again not this one.

The client and their architect were ill prepared. Small examples room arrangements changed after raft poured.
Additional service requirements after energy centre complete..........

I am aware on this project of some major groundwork claims. Some substantial uncharted sewers.

But once you get out of the ground that should be the end of it. Obviously BAM have plenty of opportunities on this project to find cost and EOT

The HSE are unfit to manage a contract at this stage and no one will be held accountable

The Bishop Basher · 22-12-2018 2:18pm

salmocab wrote: »

Well the move needs to happen and can’t be delayed much more. It’s almost certainly not the optimum long term plan but it’s committed to now and looks like it will happen despite many reasons it shouldn’t but the medical reasons for doing it outweigh the financial not to atvthis stage.

I don’t buy the medical reasons.

They talk about centres of excellence but it’s just people and machines at the end of the day, both of which can be moved..

This project should be stopped now regardless of how much has already been wasted but it won’t and the waste will be astronomical by the time they’re done.

The taxpayer loses yet again.

salmocab · 22-12-2018 2:24pm

Rennaws wrote: »

I don’t buy the medical reasons.

They talk about centres of excellence but it’s just people and machines at the end of the day, both of which can be moved..

This project should be stopped now regardless of how much has already been wasted but it won’t and the waste will be astronomical by the time they’re done.

The taxpayer loses yet again.

Well without any real knowledge of these things I can see that having specialists on site that otherwise might be miles away makes sense and I’m sure there is plenty of crossover I can’t even imagine that would be beneficial. The site is just too small has no room for expansion, will limit parking and isn’t particularly accessible because people won’t by and large be bringing children to hospital on public transport no matter what anyone thinks should happen.
So it may be the right thing to do medically but it’s a poor location and a ridiculous price.

The Bishop Basher · 22-12-2018 2:44pm

salmocab wrote: »

So it may be the right thing to do medically but it’s a poor location and a ridiculous price.

That’s just it though. Why is it the right thing to do medically ?

We’re talking about dragging sick kids across the country and through the capital city on public transport. I don’t understand what it is that can’t be physically moved from one location to another to resolve these access issues.

I do understand the desire for co-location which is why I believe we should be building 2 hospitals in an accessible location outside the city.

Sure it would be expensive but it could be done over time and we’d have a genuine solution that would benefit many generations to come.

As it stands we’re going to get the most expensive hospital in the world in an inaccessible location which is absolutely nuts.

salmocab · 22-12-2018 3:16pm

Rennaws wrote: »

That’s just it though. Why is it the right thing to do medically ?

We’re talking about dragging sick kids across the country and through the capital city on public transport. I don’t understand what it is that can’t be physically moved from one location to another to resolve these access issues.

I do understand the desire for co-location which is why I believe we should be building 2 hospitals in an accessible location outside the city.

Sure it would be expensive but it could be done over time and we’d have a genuine solution that would benefit many generations to come.

As it stands we’re going to get the most expensive hospital in the world in an inaccessible location which is absolutely nuts.

I don’t get what you mean by physically moved from one location to another. Do you mean moving the whole thing or just moving parts of it around as suits

The Bishop Basher · 22-12-2018 3:23pm

salmocab wrote: »

I don’t get what you mean by physically moved from one location to another. Do you mean moving the whole thing or just moving parts of it around as suits

I mean move it all, adult, children’s and maternity hospitals, lock stock and barrel out to a site on the M50 with ample parking where everyone in the country could access it easily by private car and / or public transport.

It would be expensive but I’d prefer to see us spend lots of money on a workable solution than waste billions on a less then perfect solution which has problems and hidden costs from the outset.

Wildly Boaring · 22-12-2018 3:55pm

Rennaws wrote: »

That’s just it though. Why is it the right thing to do medically ?

We’re talking about dragging sick kids across the country and through the capital city on public transport. I don’t understand what it is that can’t be physically moved from one location to another to resolve these access issues.

I do understand the desire for co-location which is why I believe we should be building 2 hospitals in an accessible location outside the city.

Sure it would be expensive but it could be done over time and we’d have a genuine solution that would benefit many generations to come.

As it stands we’re going to get the most expensive hospital in the world in an inaccessible location which is absolutely nuts.

As far as I'm concerned it was purely to keep the consults nice and close to their private practices.

There was free land offered out by Newlands 10 years ago.

Imagine driving from donegal and then having to get through Dublin traffic. Load of crap. No way ot should be inside the M50.

salmocab · 22-12-2018 3:57pm

Rennaws wrote: »

I mean move it all, adult, children’s and maternity hospitals, lock stock and barrel out to a site on the M50 with ample parking where everyone in the country could access it easily by private car and / or public transport.

It would be expensive but I’d prefer to see us spend lots of money on a workable solution than waste billions on a less then perfect solution which has problems and hidden costs from the outset.

I’d very much agree with that, it’s what I think should have happened.

Amirani · 22-12-2018 4:15pm

75% of the hospital's patients are going to be from the Dublin area (as per Dolphin) report. We should not be trying to locate it on a green field site to suit the <1% of patients coming from Donegal, particularly when that means losing out on the benefits of co-location, which is absolutely essential if you want the best patient outcomes. If you're happy to go without co-location, than you are happy for the children of Ireland to receive sub-optimal care by any medical metric.

Moving an existing adult hospital or building a new one is prohivitavely expensive and makes this overrun seem like peanuts. In terms of the 6 hospitals available in Dublin; Vincent's didn't want it, Connolly isn't of the required standard and would require significant investment. In terms of consultant access and speciality care, Tallaght is not on the same level as the other 3, and the proposed site is very constrained.

Both the Coombe and Crumlin recommended James's. The medical experts recommended James's (even over the Mater as James's proposition has improved since original plan). Anyone in this thread without at least a medical degree suggesting that a green field site would be as good for patient outcomes is deluded.

Amirani · 22-12-2018 4:18pm

Rennaws wrote: »

I mean move it all, adult, children’s and maternity hospitals, lock stock and barrel out to a site on the M50 with ample parking where everyone in the country could access it easily by private car and / or public transport.

It would be expensive but I’d prefer to see us spend lots of money on a workable solution than waste billions on a less then perfect solution which has problems and hidden costs from the outset.

What tax rate are you willing to pay to fund the 10 figure sum needed to pay for all this? Do you know how long this would take? We'd be without a National Children's Hospital for another decade at least under your solution.

Read the Dolphin report, your suggestion was thrown away right at the start because it's a terrible suggestion in medical and fiscal terms.

Wildly Boaring · 22-12-2018 4:19pm

Amirani wrote: »

75% of the hospital's patients are going to be from the Dublin area (as per Dolphin) report. We should not be trying to locate it on a green field site to suit the <1% of patients coming from Donegal, particularly when that means losing out on the benefits of co-location, which is absolutely essential if you want the best patient outcomes. If you're happy to go without co-location, than you are happy for the children of Ireland to receive sub-optimal care by any medical metric.

Moving an existing adult hospital or building a new one is prohivitavely expensive and makes this overrun seem like peanuts. In terms of the 6 hospitals available in Dublin; Vincent's didn't want it, Connolly isn't of the required standard and would require significant investment. In terms of consultant access and speciality care, Tallaght is not on the same level as the other 3, and the proposed site is very constrained.

Both the Coombe and Crumlin recommended James's. The medical experts recommended James's (even over the Mater as James's proposition has improved since original plan). Anyone in this thread without at least a medical degree suggesting that a green field site would be as good for patient outcomes is deluded.

Ok sorry. Donegal, mayo, Kerry, cork, Waterford.

You know anywhere that isn't Dublin.
Rest of us exist too.

Getting into James's is painful and does not suit the needs of the country's patients.

salmocab · 22-12-2018 4:20pm

Amirani wrote: »

75% of the hospital's patients are going to be from the Dublin area (as per Dolphin) report. We should not be trying to locate it on a green field site to suit the <1% of patients coming from Donegal, particularly when that means losing out on the benefits of co-location, which is absolutely essential if you want the best patient outcomes. If you're happy to go without co-location, than you are happy for the children of Ireland to receive sub-optimal care by any medical metric.

Moving an existing adult hospital or building a new one is prohivitavely expensive and makes this overrun seem like peanuts. In terms of the 6 hospitals available in Dublin; Vincent's didn't want it, Connolly isn't of the required standard and would require significant investment. In terms of consultant access and speciality care, Tallaght is not on the same level as the other 3, and the proposed site is very constrained.

Both the Coombe and Crumlin recommended James's. The medical experts recommended James's (even over the Mater as James's proposition has improved since original plan). Anyone in this thread without at least a medical degree suggesting that a green field site would be as good for patient outcomes is deluded.

A greenfield site on the m50 would be much easier to get to than Rialto for the majority of Dubs. Rialto is a pain of a place to get to. People with sick children will rarely think I’ll time a bus they’ll just drive.

Subcomandante Marcos · 22-12-2018 4:24pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned it was purely to keep the consults nice and close to their private practices.

It has literally nothing to do with that.

Part of the reason is because in a centre of excellence like this is planned to be you need to be academically connected to a university. Being in town allows students and teaching doctors to between both campuses easier. It also allows researchers from the university easier access to the hospital for practical work.

The location picked allows students and professors from the country's three leading medical schools (RCSI, UCD and Trinity) to interact easily with the campus.

Amirani · 22-12-2018 4:33pm

salmocab wrote: »

A greenfield site on the m50 would be much easier to get to than Rialto for the majority of Dubs. Rialto is a pain of a place to get to. People with sick children will rarely think I’ll time a bus they’ll just drive.

Have you travelled on the M50 lately? It's constantly jammed.

There is only 1 potential site close to the M50 that would suit this and it's Tallaght Hospital. That said, it's an inferior option in medical terms than James's/Mater/Beaumont, the campus doesn't have a particularly suitable site for the proposed NCH or expansion and is more painful than James's to get to for most people in Dublin - and I say that as someone who lives 15 mins from Tallaght village.

I'd recommend reading the Dolphin report, it deals with all these issues in much detail. Of particular important I think are the clinical recommendations.

Any child needing urgent care will have helicopter and ambulance services available. Regarding car parking, there is more in the James's plan than the Tallaght plan.

Wildly Boaring · 22-12-2018 4:35pm

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

It has literally nothing to do with that.

Part of the reason is because in a centre of excellence like this is planned to be you need to be academically connected to a university. Being in town allows students and teaching doctors to between both campuses easier. It also allows researchers from the university easier access to the hospital for practical work.

The location picked allows students and professors from the country's three leading medical schools (RCSI, UCD and Trinity) to interact easily with the campus.

Unfortunately anyone who knows anything about engineering projects will know you chose greenfield every time or you run the risk of cost over runs.

Employ BAM and give them brownfield, involve the HSE and guarantee over runs.

If sitting in Dublin it had to stick to budget and not push out every other health project in country.

Nope go from €450 million to €1750 million and kill off every other project.

Kids in ICU in castlebar or cork or wherever are having to be carried to Dublin. At least now its crumlin which you can usually drive. Feckin James's and no parking....typical idiocy

laserlad2010 · 22-12-2018 4:38pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Unfortunately anyone who knows anything about engineering projects will know you chose greenfield every time or you run the risk of cost over runs.

Employ BAM and give them brownfield, involve the HSE and guarantee over runs.

If sitting in Dublin it had to stick to budget and not push out every other health project in country.

Nope go from €450 million to €1750 million and kill off every other project.

Kids in ICU in castlebar or cork or wherever are having to be carried to Dublin. At least now its crumlin which you can usually drive. Feckin James's and no parking....typical idiocy

Did you... did you just describe a child in an "ICU" (we won't delve into regional paediatric intensive care provision) having to be carried to Dublin?

These children are transported by ambulance, you do... realise… this?

Wildly Boaring · 22-12-2018 4:40pm

laserlad2010 wrote: »

Did you... did you just describe a child in an "ICU" (we won't delve into regional paediatric intensive care provision) having to be carried to Dublin?

These children are transported by ambulance, you do... realise… this?

My child is in PICU1 in crumlin today. Brought by ambulance.

Sorry for using the word carried for ambulance. Assumed all would know

Amirani · 22-12-2018 4:44pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Unfortunately anyone who knows anything about engineering projects will know you chose greenfield every time or you run the risk of cost over runs.

Employ BAM and give them brownfield, involve the HSE and guarantee over runs.

If sitting in Dublin it had to stick to budget and not push out every other health project in country.

Nope go from €450 million to €1750 million and kill off every other project.

Kids in ICU in castlebar or cork or wherever are having to be carried to Dublin. At least now its crumlin which you can usually drive. Feckin James's and no parking....typical idiocy

Cost wasn't the most important factor here, medical outcomes was.

Co-location was an absolute must. Green field site doesn't give you that so it was ruled out.

As has been stated, James's option will have more parking than many of the alternatives. Not that that will be important to kids sitting in ICU as you seem to imply...

salmocab · 22-12-2018 4:44pm

I drive it twice a day, it’s rammed in the morning and afternoon rush hours, the city is also rammed at these times you may be shocked to hear and Rialto is a bottleneck. Lots of people would need to use the m50 just to get to Rialto anyway and not just country folk. Lots of suburban north siders would go that way and people coming in from the dun laoighre side too.
The m50 may in time be fixed but James will forever be too small a site.

laserlad2010 · 22-12-2018 4:45pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

My child is in PICU1 in crumlin today. Brought by ambulance.

Sorry for using the word carried for ambulance. Assumed all would know

And your child would still have been brought quickly by ambulance if the hospital was on the St. James' site.

€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

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