The Bible

Satriale · 08-10-2016 1:00pm

Xaracatz wrote: »

The interesting thing in this thread is that the people who believe make much kinder posts than those who do not.

Perhaps, but then, there is an element of "catching more flies with honey".
Nobody who is selling you something will tell you the bad, only the good.

Who will witness for the children that have been abused? The women and men that were burned at the stake throughout history? The scientists, tortured until they repented their "lies"?

There are 1 billion people who will speak for Jesus, I'll speak for those who suffered his Ministers on earth.

Shenshen · 08-10-2016 1:58pm

Kamari Round Unit wrote: »

Not a misunderstanding at all, just an observation based on experience.
As for squaring it.....do you ever get to the point where a situation gets so bad that you just say "enough" ? As we didn't live in the circumstances depicted in the Bible , we don't know what it was like.
I'd say it was a bit like the scenes with Indiana rescuing the kids as they were being sacrificed to Khali in a pit of fire! .. only worse.

I have this kind of argument regularly with a colleague of mine from Venezuela. Whenever he gets news from home, he'll go on rants how half of the population there needs to be killed, eventually leading on to how Hitler wasn't that bad and that Venezuela could need someone like him to clean up a bit.
You're saying that's what god was doing?
If so, I'm still not sure how you can call that "good"...

ScumLord · 08-10-2016 2:28pm

solodeogloria wrote: »

For example that the Bible is the product of Chinese whispers when it is the most authentic text from antiquity we have according to the number of manuscripts

Says who? What makes it so authentic?

I can't force people to see the reality.

Reality is what we observe. We can't observe god. Christians use words like reality and truth but the words have taken on new meaning. Basically they mean our religious dogma.

me_right_one wrote: »

God doesnt send people to hell, people willfullly (or through lack of understanding) go there themselves.

Where did hell come from? who populated hell? Is there an alternative to either going to heaven or hell? It's the same choice mobsters give to the victims of their protection rackets, play ball or something bad will happen.

Kamari Round Unit wrote: »

As it days in the New Testament.
For God so loved the World, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes would not perish but have eternal life.

Yes, according to one small group of people nearly 2000 years ago. Bottom line for most people today is that's just not a credible source. There's no reason to believe those people had any kind of special insight. There's been nothing in recorded history, archeology, geology or astronomy that has ever duplicated or backed up any of the claims made in the bible.

All the peace and love stuff has been around a lot longer than Christianity, it's possible Jesus could have been influenced by philosophies from India when he disappeared for a while and brought them back west.

I don't think religion has been a bad influence on humanity, I think it was a milestone in human development and brought a lot of good into the world but it's become somewhat redundant now, especially when we cling onto the values on ancient people. In many ways I think religion was a science beta, it was asking some of the same questions just internalising the process of answering those questions. Science takes the process out of our imaginations and looks to reality (god's world as you might call it) for real answers based on the most perfect system we know, the universe.

kylith · 08-10-2016 3:06pm

Kamari Round Unit wrote: »

Not a misunderstanding at all, just an observation based on experience.
As for squaring it.....do you ever get to the point where a situation gets so bad that you just say "enough" ? As we didn't live in the circumstances depicted in the Bible , we don't know what it was like.
I'd say it was a bit like the scenes with Indiana rescuing the kids as they were being sacrificed to Khali in a pit of fire! .. only worse.

No, we don't live in the circumstances depicted in the bible, and no it wasn't like it is now, so why should we live by their rules?

M5 · 08-10-2016 3:09pm

Ah the good book where you get instructions on how to punish slaves, how to deal with your rape victims, how to commit genocide and beautiful poetic passages like this

"There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses."

A vile, misogynistic hate filled book that contradicts itself 100's of times but is written by an Omnipotent being. Makes total sense!

Grayson · 08-10-2016 3:29pm

M5 wrote: »

Ah the good book where you get instructions on how to punish slaves, how to deal with your rape victims, how to commit genocide and beautiful poetic passages like this

A vile, misogynistic hate filled book that contradicts itself 100's of times but is written by an Omnipotent being. Makes total sense!

I've got my new description for my OkCupid profile.

Chancer3001 · 08-10-2016 3:37pm

Remember all the crazy bible stories you read in school that didnt make sense?

Turns out theyre the most sensible parts of the whole thing

Avatar MIA · 08-10-2016 3:44pm

M5 wrote: »

Ah the good book where you get instructions on how to punish slaves, how to deal with your rape victims, how to commit genocide and beautiful poetic passages like this

A vile, misogynistic hate filled book that contradicts itself 100's of times but is written by an Omnipotent being. Makes total sense!

No, no you haven't read it correctly. Read it again.

M5 · 08-10-2016 3:50pm

Avatar MIA wrote: »

No, no you haven't read it correctly. Read it again.

I'm cherry picking, that's clearly unacceptable unless its positive cherry picking

me_right_one · 08-10-2016 6:07pm

kylith wrote: »

So answer me this: who decided that people, even good, kind, honourable people, who don't believe in God go to hell?

Eh, they dont. Jesus said "There is only one way to the Father (ie. God in Heaven), and that is through me (ie., by living like Jesus, taking heed of what He said etc.). And then, "I give you one commandment greater than ALL of these (ie. love God, keep Sundays for Mass etc.), and that is love your neighbour!"

Shenshen wrote: »

So in the spirit of investigation : If everything bad in the world is there because of mankind, how do you explain the fact that animals suffered and died long beofre mankind ever evolved? Death and disease and pain have been around far longer than mankind, why would you blame humanity for them?

Well animalkind then, germkind, whatever! Just not God! Why would the God who made you, want to cause you pain and suffering?

Satriale wrote: »

Who will witness for the children that have been abused? The women and men that were burned at the stake throughout history? The scientists, tortured until they repented their "lies"?

The people who did these things go to hell. It just shows how badly you understand Christisnity if you think these people get into Heaven.

ScumLord wrote: »

Where did hell come from? who populated hell? Is there an alternative to either going to heaven or hell? It's the same choice mobsters give to the victims of their protection rackets, play ball or something bad will happen.

Haha! Really? Hell came from the devil. It is populated by people who either A) actually want to be there, or

rejected God by stealing, raping, killing etc.

ScumLord wrote: »

Yes, according to one small group of people nearly 2000 years ago. Bottom line for most people today is that's just not a credible source. There's no reason to believe those people had any kind of special insight. There's been nothing in recorded history, archeology, geology or astronomy that has ever duplicated or backed up any of the claims made in the bible.

You're wrong about claims not being historically corroborated, but thats for you to go and look up.
People, not believing in God is not a guaranteed ticket to hell. Its easy to tell who actually understood the Bible, and who just read it like a Dan Brown novel. Wanna know why? Because the first atheist EVER, is now a saint! AND, he was one of the apostles!

St. Thomas! He was with Jesus as one of his apostles for years, saw miracles being performed, saw Jesus being crucified, and at the end of it all he said, "lads this is bollox. Nobody can rise from the dead. Whatever about curing the blind and walking on water, I'm sure there's some explanation for it all, but rising from the dead is impossible. We had a good time helping people etc., but now our boss has been murdered, and we're next. Best of luck lads, but I'm out". There you have it, atheist numero uno! Long before Darwin was born!

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think religion has been a bad influence on humanity, I think it was a milestone in human development and brought a lot of good into the world ... Science takes the process out of our imaginations and looks to reality (god's world as you might call it) for real answers based on the most perfect system we know, the universe.

Now your talking! And in another 2000 years, people will regard your idea of the universe as superstitious, but thats just the way it goes! We're getting closer to scientifically discovering God all the time.

endacl · 08-10-2016 6:09pm

solodeogloria wrote: »

I think this is a misconception of Christianity. Christians read the Old Testament Scriptures in light of Jesus and what He has said and done.

Non believers read the book in light of what the words mean. Not in light of what they'd like them to mean in order to fit with a personal faith.

Much thanks in the light of reason dispelling superstition.

Avatar MIA · 08-10-2016 6:10pm

me_right_one wrote: »

The people who did these things go to hell. It just shows how badly you understand Christisnity if you think these people get into Heaven.

Really, what if they repented?

uck51js9zml2yt · 08-10-2016 6:12pm

me_right_one wrote: »

Now your talking! And in another 2000 years, people will regard your idea of the universe as superstitious, but thats just the way it goes! We're getting closer to scientifically discovering God all the time.

Really???? Please provide a link.
Though, of course, those of us who are Christians will tell you we discovered God already

me_right_one · 08-10-2016 6:14pm

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Really, what if they repented?

Then it would be up to God to judge. But I dont think rapists are ever really sorry, do you?

Shenshen · 08-10-2016 6:15pm

me_right_one wrote: »

Well animalkind then, germkind, whatever! Just not God! Why would the God who made you, want to cause you pain and suffering?

I'm confused now - you assume god is the creator of everything, or do I have that wrong?
He consquently made animals and germs, causing living things to suffer pain and diseases.

AS for the why, I was asking you that I believe.

Haha! Really? Hell came from the devil. It is populated by people who either A) actually want to be there, or rejected God by stealing, raping, killing etc.

So who made the devil, then, in your opinion?

Now your talking! And in another 2000 years, people will regard your idea of the universe as superstitious, but thats just the way it goes! We're getting closer to scientifically discovering God all the time.

I'd be surprised if they called is supersticious. We don't call the lumiferous aether superstition, even though we now know it doesn't exist.

Avatar MIA · 08-10-2016 6:15pm

me_right_one wrote: »

But I dont think rapists are ever really sorry, do you?

I'm in no way an expert on rapists. But I thought if people repented through the sacrament of confession all sins were forgiven. Either way, you cannot be certain these rapists are not in heaven.

Shenshen · 08-10-2016 6:18pm

me_right_one wrote: »

Then it would be up to God to judge. But I dont think rapists are ever really sorry, do you?

I'm not Christian by any definition of the word, but I do believe that every human being has the capacity to feel empathy and therefore can regret harm they caused. With a few clinical exceptions, obviously, but even psychopaths can tell right from wrong in most cases.

me_right_one · 08-10-2016 6:48pm

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm confused now - you assume god is the creator of everything, or do I have that wrong?

He's creator of everything by virtue of the fact that He pressed "on" to start the big bang. But He gave animals their instincts, and He gave people free will. THAT is where suffering etc. comes from. I was not blaming humans exclusively, I was pointing out that suffering is not CAUSED by God. Animals could have become herbivores, and humans have the choice to do good or bad. You seem to think that we dont, and that God causes all sh1tty situations:

Shenshen wrote: »

And last time I checked, Enda wasn't the presumably all-powerful creator of the entire universe who had set up everything deliberately, knowing full well in advance what would happen when and how people would react in each situation he placed them in, but happily punishing away.

Shenshen wrote: »

AS for the why, I was asking you that I believe.

I dont get your question.

Shenshen wrote: »

So who made the devil, then, in your opinion?

God did! His name was lucifer. And guess what lucifer did? He used his FREE WILL to REJECT God! He CHOSE to try and become a bit of a god himself! And seeing as Jesus/God had the whole "being good / kind / loving" part of life cornered, lucifer decided he'd carve out a niche in the evil department. Free will Shenshen, not Gods fault.

Avatar MIA wrote: »

I'm in no way an expert on rapists. But I thought if people repented through the sacrament of confession all sins were forgiven. Either way, you cannot be certain these rapists are not in heaven.

Yes, but you have to mean it. And all sins CAN BE forgiven, but not all sins ARE forgiven, only those God chooses to forgive. This free will thing works both ways.

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm not Christian by any definition of the word, but I do believe that every human being has the capacity to feel empathy and therefore can regret harm they caused. With a few clinical exceptions, obviously, but even psychopaths can tell right from wrong in most cases.

You're more Christian than you think;)

Anyway, time for Mass. I'll pray for you all! If you are offended by that, I apologise. But, according to my belief system, it is a good thing to do for someone. I mean you all well!

Avatar MIA · 08-10-2016 6:55pm

me_right_one wrote: »

Yes, but you have to mean it. And all sins CAN BE forgiven...

So, it's possible these rapists are in your heaven. And, to further labour the point, those raped might be in hell, simply because they cannot get their head around a contradictory religious message. Now that's a right Mind Coitus.

me_right_one wrote: »

Animals could have become herbivores,

:pac::pac::pac::D:D:D:D Please tell us you're trolling

Shenshen · 08-10-2016 7:04pm

me_right_one wrote: »

He's creator of everything by virtue of the fact that He pressed "on" to start the big bang. But He gave animals their instincts, and He gave people free will. THAT is where suffering etc. comes from. I was not blaming humans exclusively, I was pointing out that suffering is not CAUSED by God. Animals could have become herbivores, and humans have the choice to do good or bad. You seem to think that we dont, and that God causes all sh1tty situations:

I dont get your question.

God did! His name was lucifer. And guess what lucifer did? He used his FREE WILL to REJECT God! He CHOSE to try and become a bit of a god himself! And seeing as Jesus/God had the whole "being good / kind / loving" part of life cornered, lucifer decided he'd carve out a niche in the evil department. Free will Shenshen, not Gods fault.

I've had that debate too many times to count at this point, but here goes.

The premises are:

God is omnipotent
God is all-knowing
God created the universe and everything it contains.
I believe these are firm tenents of Christian belief.

Based no these, I have to conlude that free will is at best an illusion.
Assuming god knows all, he knew the moment he flicked the big bang on which way the universe would develop, who each of us would be, what our lives will be like, and what decisions we will take each minute of our lives. In fact, he knew that before he triggered the universe and we have to assume based on him being omnipotent that everything that would happen inside it was not only pre-known, but desired to happen.

Based on these assumptions, nothing and nobody inside that universe could possibly surprise god in any way, shape or form. He knew before he started it what each detail would turn out like. He could have chosen different, but how could we have? In these assumptions, we were created just as he wanted us, we're facing the challenges he wanted us to face, and we react exactly as he knew we would.

I'll have to ask you to be honest here : Either god is the omniscient, omnipotent creator of everything, in which case I don't see how you can call him "good". Or else we have free will and cocked up creation, but then god can not be both omniscient and omnipotent. He might be good, then, though. Just powerless to do anything much about anything.

Avatar MIA · 08-10-2016 7:12pm

Shenshen wrote: »

I've had that debate too many times to count at this point, but here goes.

The premises are:

God is omnipotent...

The best (which isn't saying much) retort from a similar argument I made was that God could divert his mind so that he wouldn't know how it would all unfold. That's not exactly wording of what they said, but the general gist.

That still doesn't get away from the fact it would still be predestined at the outset. :rolleyes:

Shenshen · 08-10-2016 7:18pm

Avatar MIA wrote: »

The best (which isn't saying much) retort from a similar argument I made was that God could divert his mind so that he wouldn't know how it would all unfold. That's not exactly wording of what they said, but the general gist.

That still doesn't get away from the fact it would still be predestined at the outset. :rolleyes:

There's an old paradox I remember from somewhere: if god is all-powerful, can he make a rock so heavy he can't lift it himself?
If he can't, he's not all-powerful.
And if he can, he's not all-powerful either.

It's a quaint notion, omnipotence, but overall a bit naive.

suicide_circus · 08-10-2016 7:21pm

Judge not, lest yee be judged.

Satriale · 08-10-2016 7:24pm

me_right_one wrote: »

The people who did these things go to hell. It just shows how badly you understand Christisnity if you think these people get into Heaven.

Eh

Read again, I dont think they got into "heaven" at all.

But according to your own dogma Joseph Stalin could be waiting for you at the hand of the lord, so maybe you'd want to brush up on that bit in case you get a shock when you land.

kylith · 08-10-2016 7:24pm

me_right_one wrote: »

Eh, they dont. Jesus said "There is only one way to the Father (ie. God in Heaven), and that is through me (ie., by living like Jesus, taking heed of what He said etc.). And then, "I give you one commandment greater than ALL of these (ie. love God, keep Sundays for Mass etc.), and that is love your neighbour!"

That does not answer my question. Who decided that people go to hell if they don't accept God?

Avatar MIA wrote: »

The best (which isn't saying much) retort from a similar argument I made was that God could divert his mind so that he wouldn't know how it would all unfold. That's not exactly wording of what they said, but the general gist.

That still doesn't get away from the fact it would still be predestined at the outset. :rolleyes:

And which would mean that God isn't all-knowing. Which he is described as being by his followers.

kylith · 08-10-2016 7:32pm

me_right_one wrote: »

Haha! Really? Hell came from the devil. It is populated by people who either A) actually want to be there, or rejected God by stealing, raping, killing etc.

Eh, no. Hell did not come from the devil. In fact Lucifer was cast into hell to be tortured along with everyone else

Revelation 20:10 wrote:

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

And we can avoid hell (assuming for the sake of argument it's real) just by not wanting to? That's good news

uck51js9zml2yt · 08-10-2016 7:32pm

Shenshen wrote: »

I've had that debate too many times to count at this point, but here goes.

The premises are:

God is omnipotent
God is all-knowing
God created the universe and everything it contains.
I believe these are firm tenents of Christian belief.

Based no these, I have to conlude that free will is at best an illusion.
Assuming god knows all, he knew the moment he flicked the big bang on which way the universe would develop, who each of us would be, what our lives will be like, and what decisions we will take each minute of our lives. In fact, he knew that before he triggered the universe and we have to assume based on him being omnipotent that everything that would happen inside it was not only pre-known, but desired to happen.

Based on these assumptions, nothing and nobody inside that universe could possibly surprise god in any way, shape or form. He knew before he started it what each detail would turn out like. He could have chosen different, but how could we have? In these assumptions, we were created just as he wanted us, we're facing the challenges he wanted us to face, and we react exactly as he knew we would.

I'll have to ask you to be honest here : Either god is the omniscient, omnipotent creator of everything, in which case I don't see how you can call him "good". Or else we have free will and cocked up creation, but then god can not be both omniscient and omnipotent. He might be good, then, though. Just powerless to do anything much about anything.

The 2 aren't mutually exclusive.
Yes He gave us freewill. Yes we screwed it up. and to sort it He made Fellowship with Himself possible again by redeeming mankind by the death and resurrection of Jesus.
As for this creation. The Bible tells us that all creation is in travail and waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God.
He's not going to fix the creation, He's planning on starting again with a new heaven and a new earth.

Shenshen · 08-10-2016 7:52pm

Kamari Round Unit wrote: »

The 2 aren't mutually exclusive.
Yes He gave us freewill. Yes we screwed it up. and to sort it He made Fellowship with Himself possible again by redeeming mankind by the death and resurrection of Jesus.
As for this creation. The Bible tells us that all creation is in travail and waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God.
He's not going to fix the creation, He's planning on starting again with a new heaven and a new earth.

You'll have to elaborate there a bit - if we have indeed free will, god can't know in advance what we'll do. So he's not omniscient?

Avatar MIA · 08-10-2016 7:57pm

Kamari Round Unit wrote: »

Yes we screwed it up.

Did God know we'd screw it up?

*I'm going to try baby steps.*

uck51js9zml2yt · 08-10-2016 8:00pm

Shenshen wrote: »

You'll have to elaborate there a bit - if we have indeed free will, god can't know in advance what we'll do. So he's not omniscient?

He knew Adam was going to sin. He gave Adam the option not to. He knew the only way to solve the problem was to die. The Bible says that Jesus was the Lamb slain BEFORE the foundation of the world.
He knew it was going to happen before it happened, didn't interfere and solved the problem in eternity.
We tend to limit God to time. When you understand that He's outside of time and steps into it, it allows Him to be in the past, present and future all at the same time.

Avatar MIA · 08-10-2016 8:03pm

Kamari Round Unit wrote: »

He knew Adam was going to sin. He gave Adam the option not to.

You REALLY need to read that sentence a few times. Hopefully you'll eventually see the problem with what you have written.

Shenshen · 08-10-2016 8:03pm

Kamari Round Unit wrote: »

He knew Adam was going to sin. He gave Adam the option not to. He knew the only way to solve the problem was to die. The Bible says that Jesus was the Lamb slain BEFORE the foundation of the world.
He knew it was going to happen before it happened, didn't interfere and solved the problem in eternity.
We tend to limit God to time. When you understand that He's outside of time and steps into it, it allows Him to be in the past, present and future all at the same time.

He gave him an option when he knew in advance that Adam couldn't take the option - because if Adam could have taken the option, god would have known.

Nothing to do with time, it's pretty straight-forward, really. If god knows in advance, our choices are illusionary.
Or would you accept that god just guessed it wrong?

uck51js9zml2yt · 08-10-2016 8:05pm

Avatar MIA wrote: »

You REALLY need to read that sentence a few times. Hopefully you'll eventually see the problem with what you have written.

Here we go again, another supposed contradiction which isn't a contradiction at all

Avatar MIA · 08-10-2016 8:08pm

Kamari Round Unit wrote: »

Here we go again, another supposed contradiction which isn't a contradiction at all

It's amazing isn't it - how so many people can see a contradiction that so clearly isn't there.

Grayson · 08-10-2016 8:10pm

Shenshen wrote: »

He gave him an option when he knew in advance that Adam couldn't take the option - because if Adam could have taken the option, god would have known.

Nothing to do with time, it's pretty straight-forward, really. If god knows in advance, our choices are illusionary.
Or would you accept that god just guessed it wrong?

not necessarily. If I show you a recording of that time you decided to kick start the night with 4 jagerbombs (Just an assumption, we've all done it right?) you are looking at something that can't be changed no matter how much you want to go back and undo the stupid things you said and how you got sick over the shoes of that girl you likes (Once again, not just me right?)

That doesn't mean though that at the point in time where you did those 4 jagerbombs you didn't have free will.

However that doesn't mean that Adam had a choice. If I design a robot and put it into a scenario I know how it will behave. So the option isn't that God knew in advance because of his ability to see forward and back in time but rather that God knew because he had designed humanity to act in a particular manner in a particular situation.

uck51js9zml2yt · 08-10-2016 8:10pm

Avatar MIA wrote: »

It's amazing isn't it - how so many people can see a contradiction that so clearly isn't there.

In the words of a certain Vulcan.....Indeed !!!

Mystery Egg · 08-10-2016 8:11pm

Satriale wrote: »

I've read it, turned me into an atheist, i see now why most Christians dont read it.

ken wrote: »

When I was about 15 I was staying in my grandparents for the summer. I got really bad flu and was in bed for a week with nothing to read so I read the bible.

To those saying they've read the bible - unless you're a biblical or religious studies scholar, or a Christian for many years, I flat out don't believe you. If you read it diligently non-stop it would take you 70 hours.

Put realistically, reading it for 2 hours a day every day without pausing to take notes, look things up or re-read difficult passages, or to check passages that repeat themselves (in Genesis or I Kings, for example), it would take you 5 weeks at a minimum.

I've been reading it for 18 years, bit by bit, with various commentaries, and I am still not finished it and would only consider myself to have a barely proficient knowledge of two or three books. And I've had 3 years of postgrad theological schooling on top of that.

So I call bull**** on high street atheists who've heard of Zacchaeus in primary school and a few miracle stories and think therefore they've 'read the bible'.

Shenshen · 08-10-2016 8:16pm

Mystery Egg wrote: »

To those saying they've read the bible - unless you're a biblical or religious studies scholar, or a Christian for many years, I flat out don't believe you. If you read it diligently non-stop it would take you 70 hours.

Put realistically, reading it for 2 hours a day every day without pausing to take notes, look things up or re-read difficult passages, or to check passages that repeat themselves (in Genesis or I Kings, for example), it would take you 5 weeks at a minimum.

I've been reading it for 18 years, bit by bit, with various commentaries, and I am still not finished it and would only consider myself to have a barely proficient knowledge of two or three books. And I've had 3 years of postgrad theological schooling on top of that.

So I call bull**** on high street atheists who've heard of Zacchaeus in primary school and a few miracle stories and think therefore they've 'read the bible'.

I skipped the endless family listings and didn't bother with commentaries, I'll admit that.
But it didn't take as long to read as the Lord of the Rings, to be honest.

I only read it, I didn't try and memorise it (which is why the Lord of the Rings might have taken longer

:P)

Shenshen · 08-10-2016 8:18pm

Grayson wrote: »

not necessarily. If I show you a recording of that time you decided to kick start the night with 4 jagerbombs (Just an assumption, we've all done it right?) you are looking at something that can't be changed no matter how much you want to go back and undo the stupid things you said and how you got sick over the shoes of that girl you likes (Once again, not just me right?)

That doesn't mean though that at the point in time where you did those 4 jagerbombs you didn't have free will.

However that doesn't mean that Adam had a choice. If I design a robot and put it into a scenario I know how it will behave. So the option isn't that God knew in advance because of his ability to see forward and back in time but rather that God knew because he had designed humanity to act in a particular manner in a particular situation.

I'm not sure if you're trying to say that the reason god knows all is that he's not following us real-time, but only watching the box-set?

I always understood Christianity claimed he both wrote the screenplay and directed the show

Grayson · 08-10-2016 8:24pm

Mystery Egg wrote: »

To those saying they've read the bible - unless you're a biblical or religious studies scholar, or a Christian for many years, I flat out don't believe you. If you read it diligently non-stop it would take you 70 hours.

Put realistically, reading it for 2 hours a day every day without pausing to take notes, look things up or re-read difficult passages, or to check passages that repeat themselves (in Genesis or I Kings, for example), it would take you 5 weeks at a minimum.

I've been reading it for 18 years, bit by bit, with various commentaries, and I am still not finished it and would only consider myself to have a barely proficient knowledge of two or three books. And I've had 3 years of postgrad theological schooling at third level on top of that.

So I call bull**** on high street atheists who've heard of Zacchaeus in primary school and a few miracle stories and think therefore they've 'read the bible'.

I haven't read the whole thing. I skipped all the "begat" bits. I have read the entirety of the new testament and most of the old testament. I also went to one of the most religious schools in the country. Strangely bible reference isn't big in the catholic church. We did in-depth study of the Gospels and the Acts but barely touched the old testament. I've mentioned on these boards before I also happen to have degrees in Philosophy where I studied the philosophy of religion.

The thing is that you don't need to have a degree in theology to see inconsistencies in the bible. People who study Theology generally get wrapped up trying to develop convoluted explanations about why the bible isn't inconsistent. Serious biblical scholars admit that there are inconsistencies.

Take the Gospel account of the nativity. (I'm copying from wikipedia because I can't be bothered typing it all out myself)

The nativity of Jesus or birth of Jesus is described in the gospels of Luke and Matthew. The two accounts agree that Jesus was born in Bethlehem in the time of Herod the Great to a betrothed virgin whose name was Mary. There are, however, major differences. Matthew has no census, annunciation to the shepherds or presentation in the Temple, implies that Jesus's parents' home is Bethlehem, and has him born in a house there, and has an unnamed angel appear to Joseph to announce the birth. In Luke there are no Magi, no flight into Egypt, or Massacre of the Innocents, Joseph is a resident of Nazareth, the birth appears to take place in an inn instead of the family home, and the angel (named as Gabriel) announces the coming birth to Mary.[1] While it is possible that Matthew's account might be based on Luke or Luke's on Matthew, the majority of scholars conclude that the two are independent of each other.[1]

Historically a lot of these events didn't happen. There wasn't a census. The slaughter of the innocents didn't happen either.

And with the old testament it gets really inaccurate.

Mystery Egg · 08-10-2016 8:27pm

Grayson wrote: »

I haven't read the whole thing. I skipped all the "begat" bits. I have read the entirety of the new testament and most of the old testament. I also went to one of the most religious schools in the country. Strangely bible reference isn't big in the catholic church. We did in-depth study of the Gospels and the Acts but barely touched the old testament. I've mentioned on these boards before I also happen to have degrees in Philosophy where I studied the philosophy of religion.

Funny enough I have an UG and PG degree in philosophy too (quite apart from theology) so we both know there's absolutely no bible reading involved in that, even if you attended a uni with a theo bent (Maynooth for example).

I'm not arguing here about the veracity of anything. I am contesting those who are blatantly lying when they say they've read the bible.

Grayson · 08-10-2016 8:32pm

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're trying to say that the reason god knows all is that he's not following us real-time, but only watching the box-set?

I always understood Christianity claimed he both wrote the screenplay and directed the show

The thing about predestination is big in certain protestant denominations (mainly the Calvinist ones) but not as big in others.

And yeah, the box set analogy is pretty accurate.

Just because you know someone is going to make a mistake doesn't mean that they don't have free will.
However if you design them to make the mistakes then they're just doing what you designed them to do. And since God can't make mistakes then it's a design fact not a design fault.

Grayson · 08-10-2016 8:42pm

Mystery Egg wrote: »

Funny enough I have an UG and PG degree in philosophy too (quite apart from theology) so we both know there's absolutely no bible reading involved in that, even if you attended a uni with a theo bent (Maynooth for example).

I'm not arguing here about the veracity of anything. I am contesting those who are blatantly lying when they say they've read the bible.

Maynooth is the Uni. In any catholic college the curriculum for philosophy has to cover a certain amount of the philosophy of religion and that has to have a certain amount of Aquinas. The school I went to was a diocesan college in which we studied dogma and doctrine.

I actually liked religion class. It was fun but by my mid 20's I realised that so much of it was based on "What if's" and "why's".
In the past someone religious made a statement and someone said "but what if...." and they went back to the drawing board. They presented again and someone said "Ahhh but what if" and over thousands of years that became theology.
Stuff like original sin, and transubstantiation aren't mentioned in the bible, at least not in the way a modern christian understands them. Participating in the Eucharist has different means to different denominations but is still so far from the meaning attached to it when performed by early Christians. The modern understanding has evolved over millennia because of arguments and discussions. And quite often those arguments became violent (like the reformation).

Mystery Egg · 08-10-2016 8:50pm

Grayson wrote: »

Maynooth is the Uni. In any catholic college the curriculum for philosophy has to cover a certain amount of the philosophy of religion and that has to have a certain amount of Aquinas. The school I went to was a diocesan college in which we studied dogma and doctrine.

Can't comment on a diocesan college education but philosophy of religion at NUIM has no bible element and frankly neither does Aquinas.

Grayson wrote: »

I actually liked religion class. It was fun but by my mid 20's I realised that so much of it was based on "What if's" and "why's".
In the past someone religious made a statement and someone said "but what if...." and they went back to the drawing board. They presented again and someone said "Ahhh but what if" and over thousands of years that became theology.
Stuff like original sin, and transubstantiation aren't mentioned in the bible, at least not in the way a modern christian understands them. Participating in the Eucharist has different means to different denominations but is still so far from the meaning attached to it when performed by early Christians. The modern understanding has evolved over millennia because of arguments and discussions. And quite often those arguments became violent (like the reformation).

You're entitled to believe it's all fairytales and codswallop of course, I respect that position. But nothing in the paragraph above could be considered close to accurate from a historical or theological perspective, regardless of whether you adhere to any Christian belief.

Satriale · 08-10-2016 8:55pm

Mystery Egg wrote: »

To those saying they've read the bible - unless you're a biblical or religious studies scholar, or a Christian for many years, I flat out don't believe you. If you read it diligently non-stop it would take you 70 hours.

Put realistically, reading it for 2 hours a day every day without pausing to take notes, look things up or re-read difficult passages, or to check passages that repeat themselves (in Genesis or I Kings, for example), it would take you 5 weeks at a minimum.

I've been reading it for 18 years, bit by bit, with various commentaries, and I am still not finished it and would only consider myself to have a barely proficient knowledge of two or three books. And I've had 3 years of postgrad theological schooling on top of that.

So I call bull**** on high street atheists who've heard of Zacchaeus in primary school and a few miracle stories and think therefore they've 'read the bible'.

70 hours, lol.

I've read thousands of books. The Bible, meh, Game of Thrones took me longer.

Also :cool: <--- me not giving a fcuk what you believe.

Mystery Egg · 08-10-2016 8:58pm

Satriale wrote: »

70 hours, lol.

I've read thousands of books. The Bible, meh, Game of Thrones took me longer.

Also :cool: <--- me not giving a fcuk what you believe.

The bible is 66 books; cool you've read em all

Satriale · 08-10-2016 9:10pm

Mystery Egg wrote: »

The bible is 66 books; cool you've read em all

I'm delighted, your 18 years werent totally wasted...

Mystery Egg · 08-10-2016 9:11pm

Satriale wrote: »

I'm delighted, your 18 years werent totally wasted...

Stop, I can't keep up

Satriale · 08-10-2016 9:14pm

Mystery Egg wrote: »

Stop, I can't keep up

Dont, the end is the best bit. Although it might come to pass by the time youve finished!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 08-10-2016 9:15pm

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly wrote: »

Is the Bible classified as factual work?

Also, is it worth a read?

Stephen King but with more violence and less religion.

The Bible

Comments