The Bible

py2006 · 07-10-2016 5:56pm

Anybody who takes the Bible literally in 2016 should be in a padded cell.

The earth was not created by a god 10,000 years ago. Its approx 4.5billion years. It was also not created in 6 days it took a little longer! Why would a god create light before he created the sun?? and no Adam and Eve did not exist and it is ok to be gay.

Anyway, I think most intelligent people know this is all nonsense.

The Bible is an interesting piece of literature full of myths and the typical ignorant misunderstandings of people 2000 years ago in the middle east. Not their fault, they just don't have the knowledge we have acquired over centuries.

Satriale · 07-10-2016 6:06pm

Shenshen wrote: »

People are amazing.
Reading the bible turned me from Christian to rock-solid atheist, I found it one of the most appalling books I ever read and wanted nothing to do with it or with the notion of god it portrayed ever again.
For others it seems to have had the exact opposite effect.

The main thing you need to remember, Shenzhen, is that you and I as two people that have read that book and found it wanting, will burn for eternity in the fires of hell despite never doing an evil act in our lives.

On the other hand a filthy murdering pedophile rapist baby killer will be welcomed Into the arms of Jesus in heaven just as long as he believes.

It's a funny auld world!

Shenshen · 07-10-2016 6:18pm

Satriale wrote: »

The main thing you need to remember, Shenzhen, is that you and I as two people that have read that book and found it wanting, will burn for eternity in the fires of hell despite never doing an evil act in our lives.

On the other hand a filthy murdering pedophile rapist baby killer will be welcomed Into the arms of Jesus in heaven just as long as he believes.

It's a funny auld world!

To tell you the truth, I suspect the company might be better in hell anyway

Honestly, though - one of the reasons I don't believe (there are a few, but this is one of them) is that after reading the bible I found the main character to be a rather despicable psychopath.
Terry Pratchett summed it up nicely for me :

"I was walking along the bank of a stream when I saw a mother otter with her cubs, a very endearing sight, I'm sure you'll agree. And even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued and dragged onto a half submerged log. As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters, who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy. One of nature's wonders, gentlemen. Mother and children dining upon mother and children. And that is when I first learned about evil. It is built into the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior."

If I believed that god existed and the bible was true, I could not in all good conscience workship him. My personal morals would not allow me to do that.

Samaris · 07-10-2016 6:24pm

ScumLord wrote: »

He must have some dangler on him, when I reveal myself to people I get arrested.

It's not even a collection of their own myths, the flood myth was "borrowed" from the Babylonians.

There's probably some religious dogma that got carried forward from the first religions and tribes like the Judea just wrote it all down in a way that suits their outlook on life.

Who probably borrowed it from someone else. To be fair, religions don't tend to spring up out of nowhere with a defined beginning. Most of the older ones were gradual developments from people who were probably steeped in the traditions of another, older religion.

I think the handiest way to look at it is developing folk mythologies. Whether it's "original" or not is rather like is Hansel and Gretal or Cindarella original. Probably not. We know the general story has been around for a long time, we know it's morphed over time until it was pinned to a page and rendered temporarily static.

Some parts were written down and incorporated due to the mores and principles of the time, some of which changed. Stuff like not eating shellfish/pork or wearing clothes of two cloths were old wives tales with a common sense basis to them (no refrigeration, and bear in mind in this part of the world we had the whole "don't eat shellfish in months without an R" - summer months, again because they spoil; and wearing clothes of two cloths tends to result in damage when washing.) But they get written into books and conflated with the holy will, and then punishments get applied to them!

Basically, I'm a firm believer (heh) in religions needing a good solid reformation every few hundred years to update them. Keep the original ideas "Do unto others as you would wish them to do unto you" is a pretty good basic rule for life, but lose the bull**** that human beings added in based on what was going on at the time. It's just frills.

Actually, as a note regarding pork; we're pretty cautious with pigmeat in general ourselves as we know it tends to be a bit riskier than beef. I can just imagine a batch of bad pork making a lot of people sick at once and it being regarded as dodgy for long enough that it faded into folklore and was incorporated. And because it was incorporated as A Bad Thing, mythology sprang up around it as to spiritual reasons why it was bad.

Shenshen · 07-10-2016 6:25pm

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

Deuteronomy 22 refers to three cases.
The verses that Shenshen quotes don't refer to a woman who was raped.

22:23-24 and 22:25-27 refer to cases where a betrothed woman cheats on her husband to be. The first verses and the second verses differ according to whether or not the woman is in a town or in the countryside. In cases of rape in both cases only the man is put to death according to the Law of Moses.

22:28-29 refers to premarital sexual relationships where the woman is not betrothed to anyone. The passage suggests marriage in these cases.

The death penalty doesn't apply because Christians aren't a nation in the same way that Israel was and moreover because Christians have been rescued by the death of Jesus which renders it unreasonable to expect this of others.

This is why reading carefully is key. Trying to claim that the Bible is horrible by making it say something that it doesn't isn't right.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Interesting take - why do you think it specifically says about the woman who cheats on her husband in town she should be stoned because she didn't cry for help? Why would she cry for help if it had been her intention to cheat all along?
And by the same measure, why would the woman who had sex in the countryside not be killed?

I would also be curious why - if after Jesus' death there was no call for killing people and more - the new testament explicitly calls for the killing of witches? And Jesus himself calls for people who curse their parents to be killed?

solodeogloria · 07-10-2016 6:51pm

Good evening,

Which passage in the New Testament calls for the killing of witches? I'm honestly befuddled by that but if you can help me I'll appreciate it.

The reason why that is there is to distinguish between rape and cheating. That's why in the countryside the penalty falls on the man alone.

These laws actually protected women in that society.

Of course this side of the cross the Christian church isn't a sovereign state based on divine laws.

The point of the law for Christians now is to show us our sin and point us to the cross and our need of it as another poster pointed out.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Lamentabli sane · 07-10-2016 6:53pm

Quote:

"The main thing you need to remember, Shenzhen, is that you and I as two people that have read that book and found it wanting, will burn for eternity in the fires of hell despite never doing an evil act in our lives.

On the other hand a filthy murdering pedophile rapist baby killer will be welcomed Into the arms of Jesus in heaven just as long as he believes.

It's a funny auld world!"

You are right, this does not make sense because it is heretical gibberish. Those who commit mortal sin, ie. turn away from God in a an act of sufficient gravity, not repenting until their death, are damned. This includes rape and baby killing, but also the spiritual stupidity of failing to investigate your life's purpose.

I don't understand atheists. You have a God who cares for you deeply. He holds you, flawed as you are, as the apple in His eye. He died for you on the Cross, which He did not have to do. The Bible is one big "I love you, you are precious to Me, come spend eternity with Me" from a God who leaves 99 sheep to chase the one which is lost.

We are made for greater things people. Wake up.

ScumLord · 07-10-2016 7:04pm

Samaris wrote: »

Basically, I'm a firm believer (heh) in religions needing a good solid reformation every few hundred years to update them.

The problem today is that Jesus would be considered just another lunatic or be on medication. I think religious institutions are much more robust these days. It would be very difficult to make a real reformation in this day and age and even if it did happen it would probably just end up being another pawn in the the religious war we see happening today.

The only reformation that I could see working is if all the divisions disappeared. If instead of being Catholic, or buddhist you were just religious and included all religious texts in your religion. It's all talking about the same thing anyway.

solodeogloria wrote: »

These laws actually protected women in that society.

Yeah, in the same way property laws protect cattle.

RobbieTheRobber · 07-10-2016 7:12pm

Lamentabli sane wrote: »

I don't understand atheists. You have a God who cares for you deeply. He holds you, flawed as you are, as the apple in His eye. He died for you on the Cross, which He did not have to do. The Bible is one big "I love you, you are precious to Me, come spend eternity with Me" from a God who leaves 99 sheep to chase the one which is lost.

We are made for greater things people. Wake up.

Haha wake up sheeple.

"Wake up sheeple, can't you see God is your Shepard."

Jesus Christ - the conspiracy theorist years.

JRant · 07-10-2016 7:39pm

If, and it's an almighty IF, the bible is to be taken as the word of god as many people espouse, there's one question that always goes unanswered. Why is such an omnipotent and omniscient being so bothered with what us mere mortals get up to?

Just get on with doing whatever such beings do and leave us alone da fcuk.

To be honest is just a load of pony written by humans with the sole intent of controlling other humans.

If you want moral philosophy there are far better works pre dating the bible and if you fancy a bit of historical relevance with more than a splash of colour then herodotus is your only man.

Capt'n Midnight · 07-10-2016 8:22pm

bazz26 wrote: »

Cannot wait for the sequel.

Unfortunately it's a bit like Indiana Jones.

The most popular ones are Raiders with the old Testament Ark and of course Holy Grail and Crusade is New Testament. Opinions differ on Temple of Doom though but it has its fans and you can see where they are coming from.

But pretty much everyone agrees that the Sequel knowns the Book of Mormon is like Crystal Skull.

Capt'n Midnight · 07-10-2016 8:23pm

The Honey Monster wrote: »

I hate these Jesus Fanboys.

So tell me this... If there was a big flood and Noah and his family all boarded the ark and were the only survivors of an apocalypse...well how did they reproduce?

Obviously the same way Adam and Eve did.

Pac1Man · 07-10-2016 8:24pm

Was the New Testament released because the Old Testament sold so well

Capt'n Midnight · 07-10-2016 8:26pm

Best bits of the Bible - it has a ridiculous body count.

http://thebricktestament.com/

- CONTENT NOTICE -
The Bible contains material some may consider morally objectionable and/or inappropriate for children. These labels identify stories containing:

N = nudity S = sexual content V = violence C = cursing

Your Face · 07-10-2016 8:26pm

Edgy comment

me_right_one · 07-10-2016 8:28pm

JRant wrote: »

If, and it's an almighty IF, the bible is to be taken as the word of god as many people espouse, there's one question that always goes unanswered. Why is such an omnipotent and omniscient being so bothered with what us mere mortals get up to?

Because He made you, and He loves you. Simple as that.

kingchess · 07-10-2016 8:36pm

me_right_one wrote: »

Because He made you, and He loves you. Simple as that.

Just being nosy but did he not also write another bestseller called the Koran?which book is the most factual?and these two bestseller do not seem to agree with each other-which one is true and which one is false?

Shenshen · 07-10-2016 9:01pm

me_right_one wrote: »

Because He made you, and He loves you. Simple as that.

Which is why he condems you to eternal suffering if you don't bloody do as one book tells you.
Oh, and you of course have to pick the right book. If you guess the wrong one, well... tough.

Grayson · 07-10-2016 9:08pm

Lamentabli sane wrote: »

Quote:

"The main thing you need to remember, Shenzhen, is that you and I as two people that have read that book and found it wanting, will burn for eternity in the fires of hell despite never doing an evil act in our lives.

On the other hand a filthy murdering pedophile rapist baby killer will be welcomed Into the arms of Jesus in heaven just as long as he believes.

It's a funny auld world!"

You are right, this does not make sense because it is heretical gibberish. Those who commit mortal sin, ie. turn away from God in a an act of sufficient gravity, not repenting until their death, are damned. This includes rape and baby killing, but also the spiritual stupidity of failing to investigate your life's purpose.

I don't understand atheists. You have a God who cares for you deeply. He holds you, flawed as you are, as the apple in His eye. He died for you on the Cross, which He did not have to do. The Bible is one big "I love you, you are precious to Me, come spend eternity with Me" from a God who leaves 99 sheep to chase the one which is lost.

We are made for greater things people. Wake up.

The problem is that there are plenty of people in the bible who raped women and killed babies, on God's orders. And so technically they're in heaven. I go through live helping people and not hurting a fly (I literally can't kill a fly) and I'm going to hell because I don't believe in the words of a 3000 year old iron age fable.

Satriale · 07-10-2016 10:01pm

Lamentabli sane wrote: »

I don't understand atheists. You have a God who cares for you deeply. He holds you, flawed as you are, as the apple in His eye. He died for you on the Cross, which He did not have to do. The Bible is one big "I love you, you are precious to Me, come spend eternity with Me" from a God who leaves 99 sheep to chase the one which is lost.

We are made for greater things people. Wake up.

I kind do do understand the faithful though. I understand its scary, its scary to think we are just an accident, we are not special, we are just a few cents worth of chemicals in a vast vast universe, that we find the size alone difficult to comprehend, let alone the complexity. It's probably terrifying to think that when we go that that's it, no pearly gates, no reuniting with our loved ones, no eternity of heavenly pleasures.
Of course, it's easier to believe that there's an all powerful person out there that made us in his image to rule above all else.

I understand, but trust me lads, make the most of your time here just in case you're wrong.

JRant · 07-10-2016 10:32pm

me_right_one wrote: »

Because He made you, and He loves you. Simple as that.

Not buying that bunk, no siree.

'He' had no hand in making me, raising me or any aspect of my life.

L.Jenkins · 07-10-2016 10:34pm

Lamentabli sane wrote: »

...I don't understand atheists. You have a God who cares for you deeply. He holds you, flawed as you are, as the apple in His eye. He died for you on the Cross, which He did not have to do. The Bible is one big "I love you, you are precious to Me, come spend eternity with Me" from a God who leaves 99 sheep to chase the one which is lost...

Chronicles 15:12-13 - "They entered into a covenant to seek the LORD, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul. All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

Yeah he seems like an awful needy child alright. "Love me or I'll kill you!"

Pherekydes · 07-10-2016 10:56pm

Kamari Round Unit wrote: »

What teachings would you like not to apply?

The ones about purchasing slaves, killing rape victims, cutting off hands or gouging out eyes.

solodeogloria · 07-10-2016 10:58pm

JRant wrote: »

Not buying that bunk, no siree.

'He' had no hand in making me, raising me or any aspect of my life.

Good evening!

Look, I obviously disagree with you, but nobody is suggesting that you have to buy it.

You are entirely free to decide what to believe. Admittedly to say the least it is sad to see so many people not give Christianity a hearing on the basis of clear misinformation. For example that the Bible is the product of Chinese whispers when it is the most authentic text from antiquity we have according to the number of manuscripts or that the Bible advocates rape when it doesn't.

Or indeed that Christians don't have a place in the modern world and should live in a cave. :pac:

I can't force people to see the reality. I can only share what I believe and trust my God in the process. I'm thankful that God helped me to see and has helped friends of mine to turn to Him also. I can hope and pray that God will gather more to His number. I'm encouraged. I just want to live a godly life growing in my love for Christ Jesus and for those whom He's given me in this life both within the Christian family and without.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Capt'n Midnight · 07-10-2016 11:09pm

me_right_one wrote: »

Because He made you, and He loves you. Simple as that.

He is everywhere, in the heavens and earth,
He makes the stars shine yet He cannot be seen.
He is noble, abundant, and fills the universe.
He can lift you into the sky and bring you gently down.
He can take many forms.
He can help heal, He can help kill.
He can help create, and He can help destroy.

Praise be unto He,

Helium

me_right_one · 07-10-2016 11:17pm

Shenshen wrote: »

Which is why he condems you to eternal suffering if you don't bloody do as one book tells you.
Oh, and you of course have to pick the right book. If you guess the wrong one, well... tough.

Grayson wrote: »

The problem is that there are plenty of people in the bible who raped women and killed babies, on God's orders. And so technically they're in heaven. I go through live helping people and not hurting a fly (I literally can't kill a fly) and I'm going to hell because I don't believe in the words of a 3000 year old iron age fable.

L.Jenkins wrote: »

Yeah he seems like an awful needy child alright. "Love me or I'll kill you!"

It never ceases to amaze me just how wrong people can get things. You could tell someone they have just won the lotto, and they would still twist or misunderstand it.

God doesnt send people to hell, people willfullly (or through lack of understanding) go there themselves.

Look at it this way- Enda Kenny doesnt kill you if you break the speed limit. He doesnt personally take time out of his day to ensure you are dead should your car leave the road.

But he DOES tell you that there is a huge chance you will die if you do break the limit! He informs you its there, and warns you to stay within the limit for your own sake. He also tells people that he wont be in a position to help you should you crash while above the speed limit, because you were breaking the law. And after all, as Taoseach, he is supposed to be the one upholding the law to the highest standard! So if you stray above 80kph, you're on your own.

Now, the difference between God and Enda in this hypothetical crash scenario, is that eventhough Enda wont help you, GOD WILL! But you have to meet him half way. You have to at least WANT his help. Imagine if you had your crash, the fire brigade turned up, and you told them to fcuk off because there shouldnt be a speed limit in the first place! And that if Enda really cared about you, he wouldnt have LET you drive over 80Kph! Or that you didnt believe in the existence of the law, while you are upside-down in a burning car with blood everywhere! Ludicrous!

That seems to be the level of understanding some people have.

God tells us there is a Heaven and a hell, and He tells us the way into both. He's not dictating, just informing. You have the free will to choose.

topmanamillion · 07-10-2016 11:22pm

The bible doesn't really have any "answers" mainly because it was written over 2000 years ago by people with extremely limited medical, social and wider world views.

Any modern sociology, biology or various scientific books will provide far more answers.

A book I would recommend on the subject is "The origin of God" by Robert Wright.
He grew up in a strict Baptist community I believe and was denounced from the pulpit when he dared to examine why people follow religions.

The book isn't preachy and he doesn't dismiss religion. So both sides can certainly enjoy it.

He takes religion from an evolutionary aspect. From when humans lived in bands of 10 right up to modern civilizations.

There are actually some humorous paragraphs in it.
Such as the famous "love thy neighbour". Now we were all told this is a universal phrase and everyone is your neighbour.
But if Jesus did say it he most certainly meant it literally.
For a start the world he lived in was small with limited exploration.
Then there's the fact the Romans were an occuping force so if he went around to fellow Isralites and told them the Romans aren't a bad crew and we should love them, the bible would have been much much shorter.
Think walking into a pub on the Falls Road and telling them to love the British.

JRant · 07-10-2016 11:27pm

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

Look, I obviously disagree with you, but nobody is suggesting that you have to buy it.

You are entirely free to decide what to believe. Admittedly to say the least it is sad to see so many people not give Christianity a hearing on the basis of clear misinformation. For example that the Bible is the product of Chinese whispers when it is the most authentic text from antiquity we have according to the number of manuscripts or that the Bible advocates rape when it doesn't.

Or indeed that Christians don't have a place in the modern world and should live in a cave. :pac:

I can't force people to see the reality. I can only share what I believe and trust my God in the process. I'm thankful that God helped me to see and has helped friends of mine to turn to Him also. I can hope and pray that God will gather more to His number. I'm encouraged. I just want to live a godly life growing in my love for Christ Jesus and for those whom He's given me in this life both within the Christian family and without.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Each to their own is my motto and if you're beliefs make you happy then keep on trucking.

With that said if I may point out that what you believe is your own version of reality, nothing more, nothing less.

The bible is a series of stories, many of which have their origins in ancient tales, and brought together for maximum effect to help control the masses. It is also not the most authentic text from antiquity or anything like it.

We can only hope that as a species we can eventually put such superstitious beliefs behind us.

Shenshen · 07-10-2016 11:33pm

me_right_one wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me just how wrong people can get things. You could tell someone they have just won the lotto, and they would still twist or misunderstand it.

God doesnt send people to hell, people willfullly (or through lack of understanding) go there themselves.

Look at it this way- Enda Kenny doesnt kill you if you break the speed limit. He doesnt personally take time out of his day to ensure you are dead should your car leave the road.

But he DOES tell you that there is a huge chance you will die if you do break the limit! He informs you its there, and warns you to stay within the limit for your own sake. He also tells people that he wont be in a position to help you should you crash while above the speed limit, because you were breaking the law. And after all, as Taoseach, he is supposed to be the one upholding the law to the highest standard! So if you stray above 80kph, you're on your own.

Now, the difference between God and Enda in this hypothetical crash scenario, is that eventhough Enda wont help you, GOD WILL! But you have to meet him half way. You have to at least WANT his help. Imagine if you had your crash, the fire brigade turned up, and you told them to fcuk off because there shouldnt be a speed limit in the first place! And that if Enda really cared about you, he wouldnt have LET you drive over 80Kph! Or that you didnt believe in the existence of the law, while you are upside-down in a burning car with blood everywhere! Ludicrous!

That seems to be the level of understanding some people have.

God tells us there is a Heaven and a hell, and He tells us the way into both. He's not dictating, just informing. You have the free will to choose.

Nice analogy, but Enda didn't put up 4 different signs with different speed limits on every road, did he? And last time I checked, there was one set of laws that applied in this country, not multiple.

Whereas with religion, we've got easily half a dozen major sets of rules (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Sikh, Buddhism, Hinduism, Jain, etc) without even going into the details of sub-divisions and sects.

And last time I checked, Enda wasn't the presumably all-powerful creator of the entire universe who had set up everything deliberately, knowing full well in advance what would happen when and how people would react in each situation he placed them in, but happily punishing away.

JRant · 07-10-2016 11:34pm

me_right_one wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me just how wrong people can get things. You could tell someone they have just won the lotto, and they would still twist or misunderstand it.

God doesnt send people to hell, people willfullly (or through lack of understanding) go there themselves.

Look at it this way- Enda Kenny doesnt kill you if you break the speed limit. He doesnt personally take time out of his day to ensure you are dead should your car leave the road.

But he DOES tell you that there is a huge chance you will die if you do break the limit! He informs you its there, and warns you to stay within the limit for your own sake. He also tells people that he wont be in a position to help you should you crash while above the speed limit, because you were breaking the law. And after all, as Taoseach, he is supposed to be the one upholding the law to the highest standard! So if you stray above 80kph, you're on your own.

Now, the difference between God and Enda in this hypothetical crash scenario, is that eventhough Enda wont help you, GOD WILL! But you have to meet him half way. You have to at least WANT his help. Imagine if you had your crash, the fire brigade turned up, and you told them to fcuk off because there shouldnt be a speed limit in the first place! And that if Enda really cared about you, he wouldnt have LET you drive over 80Kph! Or that you didnt believe in the existence of the law, while you are upside-down in a burning car with blood everywhere! Ludicrous!

That seems to be the level of understanding some people have.

God tells us there is a Heaven and a hell, and He tells us the way into both. He's not dictating, just informing. You have the free will to choose.

When you say god tells us there is a heaven and a hell do you actually mean humans have said that god tells us there is a heaven and a hell?

Because if there is a world of difference between the two.

What possible reason would a god with such incredible powers WANT anything from us? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Shenshen · 07-10-2016 11:37pm

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

Look, I obviously disagree with you, but nobody is suggesting that you have to buy it.

You are entirely free to decide what to believe. Admittedly to say the least it is sad to see so many people not give Christianity a hearing on the basis of clear misinformation. For example that the Bible is the product of Chinese whispers when it is the most authentic text from antiquity we have according to the number of manuscripts or that the Bible advocates rape when it doesn't.

Or indeed that Christians don't have a place in the modern world and should live in a cave. :pac:

I can't force people to see the reality. I can only share what I believe and trust my God in the process. I'm thankful that God helped me to see and has helped friends of mine to turn to Him also. I can hope and pray that God will gather more to His number. I'm encouraged. I just want to live a godly life growing in my love for Christ Jesus and for those whom He's given me in this life both within the Christian family and without.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Having been force-fed Latin for 5 years in school, I can assure you that the bible is by no means the most authentic text we have from antiquity. We have much more accurate and attributable texts that are far older.

me_right_one · 07-10-2016 11:51pm

Shenshen wrote: »

Nice analogy, but Enda didn't put up 4 different signs with different speed limits on every road, did he?

Whereas with religion, we've got easily half a dozen major sets of rules (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Sikh, Buddhism, Hinduism, Jain, etc) without even going into the details of sub-divisions and sects.

And last time I checked, Enda wasn't the presumably all-powerful creator of the entire universe who had set up everything deliberately, knowing full well in advance what would happen when and how people would react in each situation he placed them in, but happily punishing away.

Neither did God. All of those religions worship the same basic "God". But Christianity is the only one where a human said, "Lads, I actually AM God, in human form. Here's the deal - Dont kill, dont steal..." etc. Thats like all the county councils bickering over minor stuff, but yet still being branches of the same govt., under the same leader. And suddenly Enda turns up in a village and says "Listen lads, I'M the leader. Dont go over 80Kph..."

As for your second paragraph there, again, God doesnt punish. And He pushed the "on" switch for the big bang, but after that mankind shaped every situation you were ever in, not God. He's sitting there watching his little ant farm expand, watching every good thing and bad thing that ever happened to you. And when your time comes, He's hoping against hope that you choose to be rescued by Him, instaed of saying "fcuk God", and condemning yourself to being stuck in the ant farm as a dead ant.

solodeogloria · 07-10-2016 11:52pm

Shenshen wrote: »

Having been force-fed Latin for 5 years in school, I can assure you that the bible is by no means the most authentic text we have from antiquity. We have much more accurate and attributable texts that are far older.

Good night!

Last post for today.

Perhaps when you answer my last question about where the New Testament sanctions the killing of witches (I'm honestly befuddled by that claim) we can get into the claims of manuscript authenticity.

You can enjoy some light reading on the reliability of the New Testament in the meanwhile.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Penny Tration · 07-10-2016 11:56pm

I've read it, years ago when I was a teenager.

Still don't believe in a god or anything, but at least I read it before making up my mind, I guess.

If someone is a Christian, and is a good, moral person, I'll respect them just as much as I will respect a good, moral atheist. Once someone doesn't use their religion (or lack of, I may be atheist but I dislike a lot of the more hardline ones) as a reason or excuse for doing or saying nasty things, carry on.

Grayson · 08-10-2016 12:28am

me_right_one wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me just how wrong people can get things. You could tell someone they have just won the lotto, and they would still twist or misunderstand it.

God doesnt send people to hell, people willfullly (or through lack of understanding) go there themselves.

Look at it this way- Enda Kenny doesnt kill you if you break the speed limit. He doesnt personally take time out of his day to ensure you are dead should your car leave the road.

But he DOES tell you that there is a huge chance you will die if you do break the limit! He informs you its there, and warns you to stay within the limit for your own sake. He also tells people that he wont be in a position to help you should you crash while above the speed limit, because you were breaking the law. And after all, as Taoseach, he is supposed to be the one upholding the law to the highest standard! So if you stray above 80kph, you're on your own.

Now, the difference between God and Enda in this hypothetical crash scenario, is that eventhough Enda wont help you, GOD WILL! But you have to meet him half way. You have to at least WANT his help. Imagine if you had your crash, the fire brigade turned up, and you told them to fcuk off because there shouldnt be a speed limit in the first place! And that if Enda really cared about you, he wouldnt have LET you drive over 80Kph! Or that you didnt believe in the existence of the law, while you are upside-down in a burning car with blood everywhere! Ludicrous!

That seems to be the level of understanding some people have.

God tells us there is a Heaven and a hell, and He tells us the way into both. He's not dictating, just informing. You have the free will to choose.

I think you need to check your theology. Because of the whole "The only way to the father is through me" bit most christian denominations say that you will go to hell if you don't believe. The big exception to this is the catholic church. They say that if you have never heard of the teachings of Jesus than you will be judged on your acts. However if You've heard the teachings and reject them (like me) then you're doomed.

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

So to reassert what I said. When one of those guys in the bible who committed genocide & rape & infant slaying gets judged he's ok because he was just doing what God tells him.
I however am doomed because despite my acts I don't accept the authority of an iron age mythology.

Grayson · 08-10-2016 12:34am

Shenshen wrote: »

Having been force-fed Latin for 5 years in school, I can assure you that the bible is by no means the most authentic text we have from antiquity. We have much more accurate and attributable texts that are far older.

We're in a lucky country for that. Trinity has the dead sea scrolls but also the Chester Beatty library in Dublin Castle has the largest collection of oriental art outside the orient. Including original scrolls containing early versions of the bible and Koran (It's great in there but bring a jumper the room is kept chilly).

Maynooth library has the largest collection of bibles in the world. Once again you cab see huge variation.

irish coldplayer · 08-10-2016 1:09am

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good night!

Last post for today.

Perhaps when you answer my last question about where the New Testament sanctions the killing of witches (I'm honestly befuddled by that claim) we can get into the claims of manuscript authenticity.

You can enjoy some light reading on the reliability of the New Testament in the meanwhile.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

To quote another user on here Bannasidhe;
"Please link me a document contemporary with Jesus (i.e not a gospel) that proves he existed?

Otherwise, it is speculation based on second hand, noncontempornious accounts - aka hearsay."

Grayson · 08-10-2016 1:16am

irish coldplayer wrote: »

To quote another user on here Bannasidhe;
"Please link me a document contemporary with Jesus (i.e not a gospel) that proves he existed?

Otherwise, it is speculation based on second hand, noncontempornious accounts - aka hearsay."

I believe Josephus is the only contemporary source. He kinda mentions him in passing.

Subcomandante Marcos · 08-10-2016 1:17am

RustyNut wrote: »

I taught god liked little children to suffer.

I bet you have a quote to back that up. I bet it's from the book of Matthew and I bet you're completely butchering the comprehension of the text.

Grayson · 08-10-2016 1:25am

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

I bet you have a quote to back that up. I bet it's from the book of Matthew and I bet you're completely butchering the comprehension of the text.

Well there's the point where god gets bears to kill a load of children for calling a prophet Baldy.
And there's always the first born of egypt.....

Xaracatz · 08-10-2016 7:09am

Satriale wrote: »

I kind do do understand the faithful though. I understand its scary, its scary to think we are just an accident, we are not special, we are just a few cents worth of chemicals in a vast vast universe, that we find the size alone difficult to comprehend, let alone the complexity. It's probably terrifying to think that when we go that that's it, no pearly gates, no reuniting with our loved ones, no eternity of heavenly pleasures.
Of course, it's easier to believe that there's an all powerful person out there that made us in his image to rule above all else.

I understand, but trust me lads, make the most of your time here just in case you're wrong.

The interesting thing in this thread is that the people who believe make much kinder posts than those who do not.

kylith · 08-10-2016 10:53am

Fuzzytrooper wrote: »

Insert obligatory we're all slaves to technology and Steve Jobs is/was society's new God quote here... but more seriously one of the points of the old testament law was to show people that no one is particularly good. Here's the thing about Jesus...while the old testament still stands in terms of whats right and wrong, the punishment for said crimes has been taken by Jesus. That's why Christians don't go around stoning people (except for giggles). He did the time so you don't have to.

Untrue. Jesus specifically said that the old laws still apply in Matthew 5:18:

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

me_right_one wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me just how wrong people can get things. You could tell someone they have just won the lotto, and they would still twist or misunderstand it.

God doesnt send people to hell, people willfullly (or through lack of understanding) go there themselves.

Look at it this way- Enda Kenny doesnt kill you if you break the speed limit. He doesnt personally take time out of his day to ensure you are dead should your car leave the road.

...

God tells us there is a Heaven and a hell, and He tells us the way into both. He's not dictating, just informing. You have the free will to choose.

So answer me this: who decided that people, even good, kind, honourable people, who don't believe in God go to hell?

irish coldplayer · 08-10-2016 10:59am

Grayson wrote: »

I believe Josephus is the only contemporary source. He kinda mentions him in passing.

Titus Flavius Josephus was born 4 years after Jesus is alleged to have died and - like Tacitus - is not a primary source for the existence of Jesus but is a primary source for the existence of Christianity during the reign of Nero.

uck51js9zml2yt · 08-10-2016 11:12am

JRant wrote: »

When you say god tells us there is a heaven and a hell do you actually mean humans have said that god tells us there is a heaven and a hell?

Because if there is a world of difference between the two.

What possible reason would a god with such incredible powers WANT anything from us? It makes no sense whatsoever.

He wants relationship with us, surprising as it may seem.
Instead all He's had is rebellion against Himself.
As it days in the New Testament.
For God so loved the World, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes would not perish but have eternal life.
And again "God wants all men to be saved"
The sad truth is that all won't be and will end up in the place prepared for the devil and his angels (note: not prepared for mankind)
All that's gone wrong with the world is as a result of mankinds rebellion against Gods order and His Rule.
Why has he allowed it? He gave us freewill. Maybe he should have made us to be robots!

But of course, it's easier to blame the creator for his creation going off the rails than to take responsibility for our own actions, something we've been doing since Adam first blamed God for giving him the woman who caused him to rebel against God.

L.Jenkins · 08-10-2016 11:42am

Does this thread make anyone else want to watch Monty Pythons Life of Brian?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xit3qJzguG0

Avatar MIA · 08-10-2016 11:56am

irish coldplayer wrote: »

Titus Flavius Josephus was born 4 years after Jesus is alleged to have died and - like Tacitus - is not a primary source for the existence of Jesus but is a primary source for the existence of Christianity during the reign of Nero.

And even Josephus' reference is in doubt as to the Jesus he was referring to and even then, possibly the most important history of the Jews at the time, "our" Jesus is only a bit player at best.

aaronjumper · 08-10-2016 12:26pm

Xaracatz wrote: »

The interesting thing in this thread is that the people who believe make much kinder posts than those who do not.

I didn't say anything mean in mine. You say sorry right now!

Shenshen · 08-10-2016 12:31pm

Kamari Round Unit wrote: »

He wants relationship with us, surprising as it may seem.
Instead all He's had is rebellion against Himself.
As it days in the New Testament.
For God so loved the World, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes would not perish but have eternal life.
And again "God wants all men to be saved"
The sad truth is that all won't be and will end up in the place prepared for the devil and his angels (note: not prepared for mankind)
All that's gone wrong with the world is as a result of mankinds rebellion against Gods order and His Rule.
Why has he allowed it? He gave us freewill. Maybe he should have made us to be robots!

But of course, it's easier to blame the creator for his creation going off the rails than to take responsibility for our own actions, something we've been doing since Adam first blamed God for giving him the woman who caused him to rebel against God.

I think the last bit is quite a massive misunderstanding. It assumes that people who feel that the god depicted in the bible would not be worthy of worship and is overall rather questionable actually believe he exists in the first place.
While I can't speak for everyone, personally I do not believe that, so the notion that I would blame something I don't believe exists is a little absurd.

When myself and other posters point out the very nasty sides of the god described in the bible, we are asking you as the person who does believe in him, and who furthermore believes that he's good and just and moral, how you can square that circle in your own mind. We don't blame, we're just curious to see how your mind works.

So in the spirit of investigation : If everything bad in the world is there because of mankind, how do you explain the fact that animals suffered and died long beofre mankind ever evolved? Death and disease and pain have been around far longer than mankind, why would you blame humanity for them?

Samaris · 08-10-2016 12:34pm

Grayson wrote: »

I think you need to check your theology. Because of the whole "The only way to the father is through me" bit most christian denominations say that you will go to hell if you don't believe. The big exception to this is the catholic church. They say that if you have never heard of the teachings of Jesus than you will be judged on your acts. However if You've heard the teachings and reject them (like me) then you're doomed.

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

So to reassert what I said. When one of those guys in the bible who committed genocide & rape & infant slaying gets judged he's ok because he was just doing what God tells him.
I however am doomed because despite my acts I don't accept the authority of an iron age mythology.

Isn't the Catholic church one of the ones with the doctrine of it taking faith -and good works- to get into heaven? There are some denominations that just require faith, but I'm pretty sure that was one of the points that the Reformation happened over. I can't quite be certain which side held which position though.

uck51js9zml2yt · 08-10-2016 12:43pm

Shenshen wrote: »

I think the last bit is quite a massive misunderstanding. It assumes that people who feel that the god depicted in the bible would not be worthy of worship and is overall rather questionable actually believe he exists in the first place.
While I can't speak for everyone, personally I do not believe that, so the notion that I would blame something I don't believe exists is a little absurd.

When myself and other posters point out the very nasty sides of the god described in the bible, we are asking you as the person who does believe in him, and who furthermore believes that he's good and just and moral, how you can square that circle in your own mind. We don't blame, we're just curious to see how your mind works.

So in the spirit of investigation : If everything bad in the world is there because of mankind, how do you explain the fact that animals suffered and died long beofre mankind ever evolved? Death and disease and pain have been around far longer than mankind, why would you blame humanity for them?

Not a misunderstanding at all, just an observation based on experience.
As for squaring it.....do you ever get to the point where a situation gets so bad that you just say "enough" ? As we didn't live in the circumstances depicted in the Bible , we don't know what it was like.
I'd say it was a bit like the scenes with Indiana rescuing the kids as they were being sacrificed to Khali in a pit of fire! .. only worse.

The Bible

Comments