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Predicted Grades Appeals

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24567…17

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    #32
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    That is exactly what happened. The first issue was wild over predictions which then led to teacher predictions being ignored in larger cohorts which was obviously stupid at the same time. Even the best schools had a large minority of grades decreased. Some comprehensive schools had 60+% downgraded because of the algorithm though. Now they are reverting to the best of the teacher grade, mock grade or calculated grade. An omnishambles which N Foley may have ahead of her.

    What I would hope would happen is that all the grades are chucked into the system as they are and a bell curve formed (for each subject). Compare bell curve with typical curve for that subject in previous years. If it's out of whack (which it probably is), then adjust the whole curve downwards to bring it in line with the typical curve, so grades are adjusted anonymously on a national level. Then once that is done have a look at the impact of that adjustment at local level to see if some schools have been harshly treated and if some are getting away with murder cos they chance their arm and put in for a way higher than normal number of H1s.



    The notion of failing someone on predicted grade bothers me more than the scramble for H1 grades to be honest. We've all had that student who doesn't open a book for 2 years and comes out with a D3/H6 or H7 now. The idea of failing someone on an exam they haven't sat bothers me. The implication particularly for maths can mean losing a place in college or on an apprenticeship etc.


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    #33
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    ... We've all had that student who doesn't open a book for 2 years and comes out with a D3/H6 or H7 now...
    We should not be propagating the notion that a H7 isn’t a fail.


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    #34
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    RealJohn wrote: »
    We should not be propagating the notion that a H7 isn’t a fail.

    It's accepted for college entry and for points. No student is going to consider a grade that offers them points and college entry as a fail. I think it's a lost battle at this stage.


    I have a bigger problem with 'Partially Achieved' for Junior Cycle. You can't partially achieve in your driving test. You pass or fail.


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    #35
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    It's accepted for college entry and for points. No student is going to consider a grade that offers them points and college entry as a fail. I think it's a lost battle at this stage.


    I have a bigger problem with 'Partially Achieved' for Junior Cycle. You can't partially achieve in your driving test. You pass or fail.
    Just because they’re allowing it doesn’t change what it is.

    I have an even bigger problem with “yet to meet ...” than I do with “partially achieved”, in fairness. “Partially achieved” implies some part was achieved, which has some truth to it. “Yet to meet ...” implies that the deadline hasn’t past and that there’s still a chance, when there isn’t. It should be “Failed to meet ...”


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    #36
    joe40
    Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    Is there a chance that seeing the hassle in the UK the dept here will simply let the teacher prediction stand. If there are higher grades than previous years the CAO points will simply go up.


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    #37
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Just because they’re allowing it doesn’t change what it is.

    I have an even bigger problem with “yet to meet ...” than I do with “partially achieved”, in fairness. “Partially achieved” implies some part was achieved, which has some truth to it. “Yet to meet ...” implies that the deadline hasn’t past and that there’s still a chance, when there isn’t. It should be “Failed to meet ...”

    Oh I have a problem with that too. I had blocked out CBAs from memory there over the summer. I tackled the one who was giving our last inservice on it. I said that yet to meet implies that they will meet it or have the chance of meeting it when in reality no one repeats third year, so they don't have that chance, but also that some students will never pass a subject no matter how many times they try, because they lack ability in that area. And that's ok. We can't all be experts in everything. She didn't have an answer for me.


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    #38
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    joe40 wrote: »
    Is there a chance that seeing the hassle in the UK the dept here will simply let the teacher prediction stand. If there are higher grades than previous years the CAO points will simply go up.

    It depends how they've tackled the grade calculations in comparison to the UK.


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    #39
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,851 ✭✭✭doc_17


    It’s going to be total carnage. Maybe it’s a good thing that schools will be teaching a normal day on Sept 7 and won’t have distraught and angry students in.


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    #40
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    joe40 wrote: »
    Is there a chance that seeing the hassle in the UK the dept here will simply let the teacher prediction stand. If there are higher grades than previous years the CAO points will simply go up.
    I think there’s a strong chance that’ll happen, if people kick up about the predicted grades they’re given. That way, the government can put it all on teachers, and like you said, the most obvious result will just be that the points go up.
    Never mind the students whose teachers got it mostly right losing out. There’ll be no way to identify them, or that they lost out.


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    #41
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    doc_17 wrote: »
    It’s going to be total carnage. Maybe it’s a good thing that schools will be teaching a normal day on Sept 7 and won’t have distraught and angry students in.
    I’d be surprised if schools don’t have angry students in.


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    #42
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    RealJohn wrote: »
    I think there’s a strong chance that’ll happen, if people kick up about the predicted grades they’re given. That way, the government can put it all on teachers, and like you said, the most obvious result will just be that the points go up.
    Never mind the students whose teachers got it mostly right losing out. There’ll be no way to identify them, or that they lost out.

    Well it's far more likely that grades would be adjusted down by the DES than upwards. So if you've given a student a H1 and the DES gives them a H2, I'm not sure how teachers can be blamed here. It's the DES that have done them out of the grade.


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    #43
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    It will have a terrible effect on the incoming 6th years. I can take my predicted grades in 5 subjects and cram for 2 months (with a tutor or grinds) and sit one exam whenever. Mix and match my points and I'm in medicine.....a kids next year will have to compete honestly with this year's students pick and mix.

    The leaving cert has its issues but we can't keep marking perfectly consistent with a 2 day conference, a book lenght marking scheme annotated and a supervising examiner.....the idea we can do it in a classroom with kids were know and care about is mad. I really did my best to be extremely honest but there were people, on here and that I've spoken to, saying they were going to err on the very generous side and let the DoE take the blame for bringing students grades down


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    #44
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    I didn’t err on the generous side. I also consulted with both teachers who had my class on maternity leave last year and there was agreement. However the class just happen to be significantly stronger than other years. Which is an issue clearly. As they will be adjusted based on previous years....


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    #45
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Well it's far more likely that grades would be adjusted down by the DES than upwards. So if you've given a student a H1 and the DES gives them a H2, I'm not sure how teachers can be blamed here. It's the DES that have done them out of the grade.
    I was saying that if they revert to the grades the teachers assigned, that they can then blame teachers for everything, and wash their own hands of it.


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    #46
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    The leaving cert has its issues but we can't keep marking perfectly consistent with a 2 day conference, a book lenght marking scheme annotated and a supervising examiner.....the idea we can do it in a classroom with kids were know and care about is mad. I really did my best to be extremely honest but there were people, on here and that I've spoken to, saying they were going to err on the very generous side and let the DoE take the blame for bringing students grades down
    Overall, I think I probably did err on the geneous side, but I still feel like I might have given one student too low a mark, and that's in spite of having a lot of experience with the SEC. I just don't think I got it right. The generosity wasn't unconscious (it was taking the socioeconomic status of the school, and the possibility of marks being downgraded, into account), but even in spite of this, I think I have at least one student that I gave too low a mark to, and that's not counting the students I failed because they picked higher level when they never showed me anything in class, who might well have passed with three months of good work.

    The whole thing is a disaster.


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    #47
    Newbie20
    Registered Users Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Newbie20


    I’d be really annoyed if they just let the teachers grade stand. I gave grades that I thought were accurate and realistic but I know of a couple of teachers that gave very inflated grades (now they couldn’t seem to see themselves that they were inflating them but anyone that teaches the students in question would know that they were.)

    The funny thing is with all the complaining in England and Scotland, the students don’t seem to get that being brought down/up to fit in with the bell curve is what happens ever single year anyway. And unfortunately disadvantaged schools do worse every year than private schools, that’s just the reality. I suppose it’s harder to take when it’s just a number being changed as opposed to a marking scheme.

    The Leaving Cert should have gone ahead in the summer and all this nonsense would have been avoided. I hope the likely anger on the 7th of September is pointed in the right direction.


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    #48
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭Treppen


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Overall, I think I probably did err on the geneous side, but I still feel like I might have given one student too low a mark, and that's in spite of having a lot of experience with the SEC. I just don't think I got it right. The generosity wasn't unconscious (it was taking the socioeconomic status of the school, and the possibility of marks being downgraded, into account), but even in spite of this, I think I have at least one student that I gave too low a mark to, and that's not counting the students I failed because they picked higher level when they never showed me anything in class, who might well have passed with three months of good work.

    The whole thing is a disaster.

    That doesn't sound like generosity.


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    #49
    joebloggs32
    Registered Users Posts: 1,596 ✭✭✭joebloggs32


    RealJohn wrote: »
    I was saying that if they revert to the grades the teachers assigned, that they can then blame teachers for everything, and wash their own hands of it.

    I contacted our area rep in the union yesterday on this issue. This will leave us hanging out to dry if it happens.
    The process was agreed in advance. We never asked for it, but did what we were asked to do.
    The media will whip up a storm when the results land. The sob stories will flow and Norma looking to be seen to do something will do a u turn and let the teachers grades stand. Then every student will know exactly what we predicted. All the blame for missing a place in college will be lumped on us.
    Its going to be a sh1tshow.


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    #50
    openup
    Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭openup


    am_zarathustra wrote: »

    The leaving cert has its issues but we can't keep marking perfectly consistent with a 2 day conference, a book lenght marking scheme annotated and a supervising examiner.....the idea we can do it in a classroom with kids were know and care about is mad. I really did my best to be extremely honest but there were people, on here and that I've spoken to, saying they were going to err on the very generous side and let the DoE take the blame for bringing students grades down

    This. Entire departments at my school made it policy to not award lower that 40.1.


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    #51
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,783 ✭✭✭amacca


    openup wrote: »
    This. Entire departments at my school made it policy to not award lower that 40.1.

    Thats just not right and leaves anyone that did what they were told and engaged with the process correctly (or as close to those ridiculous "guidelines" as possible) in the ****.

    But it doesnt surprise me after reading through a lot of the self serving guff that has been produced lately by JCT etc etc


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    #52
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Treppen wrote: »
    That doesn't sound like generosity.
    I was slightly generous to most of the students who picked an appropriate level (with one exception, which wasn't intentional, as I've already mentioned). I do have some professional integrity though, so I couldn't justify passing people who picked higher level when they'd barely been in class, didn't work when they were there, hadn't turned up for most of the exams and failed the ones they did turn up for.

    I didn't fail anyone at ordinary level, even though I would have put money on some of them failing, had they actually had to sit an exam.
    I wasn't overly generous, but I was definitely generous in some cases.


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    #53
    openup
    Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭openup


    I failed two. One was because he inexplicably chose higher level. The other I failed at ordinary. I feel like that was the correct decision and I can stand by my grade. I also had the support of my department. But his parents are extremly difficult. Had I known they would be able to view the grade I may not have failed him as I teach his youner siblings too. The parents refuse to cooperate or support the children in my subject (and several others) and this will only further their beleif that I have a vendetta against them.


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    #54
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭Treppen


    openup wrote: »
    I failed two. One was because he inexplicably chose higher level. The other I failed at ordinary. I feel like that was the correct decision and I can stand by my grade. I also had the support of my department. But his parents are extremly difficult. Had I known they would be able to view the grade I may not have failed him as I teach his youner siblings too. The parents refuse to cooperate or support the children in my subject (and several others) and this will only further their beleif that I have a vendetta against them.

    I suppose if the student really wants to prove the teacher wrong then they can sit it in November... then again June 2021 ! That's not a bad option if you ask me.

    If anything it's unfair to the 5th years from 2020


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    #55
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Treppen wrote: »
    I suppose if the student really wants to prove the teacher wrong then they can sit it in November... then again June 2021 ! That's not a bad option if you ask me.

    If anything it's unfair to the 5th years from 2020

    Repeating in November and then June isn't really viable because they will have missed too much to catch up on certain subjects.


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    #56
    Millionaire only not
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Millionaire only not


    Newbie20 wrote: »
    I’d be really annoyed if they just let the teachers grade stand. I gave grades that I thought were accurate and realistic but I know of a couple of teachers that gave very inflated grades (now they couldn’t seem to see themselves that they were inflating them but anyone that teaches the students in question would know that they were.)

    The funny thing is with all the complaining in England and Scotland, the students don’t seem to get that being brought down/up to fit in with the bell curve is what happens ever single year anyway. And unfortunately disadvantaged schools do worse every year than private schools, that’s just the reality. I suppose it’s harder to take when it’s just a number being changed as opposed to a marking scheme.

    The Leaving Cert should have gone ahead in the summer and all this nonsense would have been avoided. I hope the likely anger on the 7th of September is pointed in the right direction.

    How the hell do u think the leaving cert could have gone ahead! they’ll be lucky to get schools opened next month.


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    #57
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Millionaire only not wrote: »
    How the hell do u think the leaving cert could have gone ahead! they’ll be lucky to get schools opened next month.

    If it was a golfing society function, they would find a way!


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    #58
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    Millionaire only not wrote: »
    How the hell do u think the leaving cert could have gone ahead! they’ll be lucky to get schools opened next month.

    There were two cases in Ireland on the eve of the day the LC would have started, the 2nd of June....cases not deaths. The R rate was steadily falling for 6 weeks. The restrictions were clearly working and restaurant/pubs opened during the LC window. It could have happened. They government bottled it bacause kids were stressed and a couple of journalists had vested interests. We knew from international examples that the lockdown would work. The papers were ready, the teachers were willing, the SEC would have figured out correcting and the mess that is absolutely coming could have been avoided.

    People are suggesting marques and whole school returns with a r rate above 1 and hundreds of cases a day but the LC couldn't happen


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    #59
    Leftwaffe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭Leftwaffe


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    There were two cases in Ireland on the eve of the day the LC would have started, the 2nd of June....cases not deaths. The R rate was steadily falling for 6 weeks. The restrictions were clearly working and restaurant/pubs opened during the LC window. It could have happened. They government bottled it bacause kids were stressed and a couple of journalists had vested interests. We knew from international examples that the lockdown would work. The papers were ready, the teachers were willing, the SEC would have figured out correcting and the mess that is absolutely coming could have been avoided.

    People are suggesting marques and whole school returns with a r rate above 1 and hundreds of cases a day but the LC couldn't happen

    The LC could have easily went ahead during the Summer. I think the uncertainty surrounding it and the effect that might have on students sitting the exams led to it not being carried out. Genuinely believe it could easily have been done though.


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    #60
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    We all know that it could have been done, and yes, there'd probably have been a handful of cases of someone testing positive, and having to shut test centres down, and students missing out on exams, but that would be far preferable to the current situation, where no student will get any grades you can trust.


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    #61
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    And the nice thing is they would have reset the exam the missed later in the summer as per the new sickness/bereavement set up where, for the first time, a second exam was set to run anyway


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