Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

bilston · 18-11-2020 10:43am

Take we can expect a team announcement today?

Any journos printing predicted teams this morning in the Dublin media?

GeordieC · 18-11-2020 11:14am

Gerry Thornley's Ireland (possible) v England:

Keenan; Conway, Farrell, Aki, Lowe; R Byrne, Murray;

Healy, Kelleher, Porter, Ryan (capt), Henderson, Stander, Connors, Doris.

Replacements: Heffernan, E Byrne, Bealham, Roux or Beirne, O’Mahony, Gibson-Park, B Burns, Earls.

Interesting that GT actually had Burns starting when I read it last night, only to change this morning. He got the team pretty spot on last week.

Not delighted by the Byrne/Murray axis. Would rather RB/JGP or Burns/Murray (but who is kicker?)

Any news on Stockdale?

ionadnapokot · 18-11-2020 11:23am

Stockdale: Tight calf...im a little skeptical. I'd imagine he will be back for Georgia and back on the wing.

I'd say that is the team... really hope Byrne gives a good show for himself. He deserves this chance.
I expect we will see the cross-field specials and hopefully allot of kicks in behind the English.
Would have liked to see JGP again myself.

Shane Daly still injured?

aloooof · 18-11-2020 11:29am

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Shane Daly still injured?

I think there was an update earlier in the week that he had recovered. Hopefully see him for Georgia.

Buer · 18-11-2020 12:44pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Most of the time, the defensive player doesn't want the ball, they want the penalty, and so they're holding the ball into the prone player and that's just given as holding on. Sometimes the attacking player even pretty clearly releases it, refs are just looking for the defensive player to survive the clearout and keep their hands on the ball.

Indeed. There was a clear case of Dave Kearney having released the ball the other night on the ground. However, I do think the tackled player is often smart enough to use their body to try and guard the ball with their torso or roll on top of the ball slightly to prevent the steal.

A tackled player knows that the breakdown is also enough of a lottery that it's worth holding onto the ball for an extra second or two. There's an excellent chance that the jackling player doesn't hold on or is even pinged for not releasing the tackled player/supporting weight/hands in ruck.

I'd imagine that on the balance of probability, it's worth preventing the turnover and seeing what the outcome is. There's a very good chance your support clears him off before conceding a penalty or the penalty actually goes in your favour for an illegal attempt at turning over possession.

Yeah_Right · 18-11-2020 1:12pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Most of the time, the defensive player doesn't want the ball, they want the penalty, and so they're holding the ball into the prone player and that's just given as holding on. Sometimes the attacking player even pretty clearly releases it, refs are just looking for the defensive player to survive the clearout and keep their hands on the ball.

I've actually seen refs not give the penalty in this situation saying there was no clear attempt to lift the ball and that just touching the ball isn't enough. It may be a SH interpretation though. Also seen them not giving the turnover because the jackler was lifting the player and not the ball.

Someone mentioned players putting their hands on the ground beyond the ball to survive the cleanout and then come back to the ball. This is illegal isn't it?

Sanjuro · 18-11-2020 1:17pm

D.Q · 18-11-2020 1:20pm

Sad to say but glad to see the new 9/10 lineup

The Lost Sheep · 18-11-2020 1:21pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I've actually seen refs not give the penalty in this situation saying there was no clear attempt to lift the ball and that just touching the ball isn't enough. It may be a SH interpretation though. Also seen them not giving the turnover because the jackler was lifting the player and not the ball.

Someone mentioned players putting their hands on the ground beyond the ball to survive the cleanout and then come back to the ball. This is illegal isn't it?

Yes it is. Its going off your feet/not supporting your body weight. must go straight in on ball.

aloooof · 18-11-2020 1:21pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Someone mentioned players putting their hands on the ground beyond the ball to survive the cleanout and then come back to the ball. This is illegal isn't it?

Yep. You occasionally see it getting pinged, but with the speed to rucks, it all happens in the blink of an eye. I don't envy the refs, tbh...

sydthebeat · 18-11-2020 1:25pm

delighted its JPG and Byrne, rather than Murray and Byrne.

aloooof · 18-11-2020 1:25pm

Happy enough with that. POM in makes sense given Sexton's omission and the troubles in the lineout of late. Big test of the new half-back pairing now. Feel a bit disappointed for Conway, he had been in superb form back pre-Covid.

roverjoyce · 18-11-2020 1:28pm

5 out of the Starting 15 - bought in
Where is this going to end!

aloooof · 18-11-2020 1:30pm

roverjoyce wrote: »

5 out of the Starting 15 - bought in
Where is this going to end!

You know they've changed the rule to 5 years, right?

Bazzo · 18-11-2020 1:31pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I've actually seen refs not give the penalty in this situation saying there was no clear attempt to lift the ball and that just touching the ball isn't enough. It may be a SH interpretation though. Also seen them not giving the turnover because the jackler was lifting the player and not the ball.

Someone mentioned players putting their hands on the ground beyond the ball to survive the cleanout and then come back to the ball. This is illegal isn't it?

Happened twice in the Connacht match the other night. Ref told the jackaler "no lift" and let play continue

TRC10 · 18-11-2020 1:31pm

Cant have many complaints with that 23. Glad to see Kelleher get the nod at hooker. Yes he had a couple of missed throws but he was good around the park and at 22, hes the future at hooker. Roux deserves his place after last week. O'Mahony at 7 is interesting. I would have gone for Connors to win the gainline battle which will be so important. His defence against Englands ball carriers could have been crucial but Pete offers other things in terms of lineout and leadership so no real complaints.

Glad JGP is in at 9. His speed of pass and the way he commits fringe defenders will help us get on the front foot and win the gainline battle. Conway hasn't hit his pre-lockdown form so Earl's deserves his chance. His experience will be crucial in a backline that has lost a lot of experience (Murray, Sexton, Henshaw, Ringrose)

Theres also real impact to come off the bench in Henderson, Connors and Stockdale. And I feel like Murray is a great man to close out a game. Overall I like the squad. COYBIG

sydthebeat · 18-11-2020 1:33pm

roverjoyce wrote: »

5 out of the Starting 15 - bought in
Where is this going to end!

last year...............

so no need to worry

siltirocker · 18-11-2020 1:34pm

No issues with that team from what we've seen. I think I would have perhaps tried to squeeze in Heffernan. I understand Herring has been doing it the past year or two, and Kelleher is the future. But from watching all three since the restart and these tests Heffernan has been the stand out for me. I'd go as far as saying he is the strongest currently in scrummaging, line out, and, by a country mile, in the loose.

Byrne has been poor in his previous games against England so I hope he turns things around. I think most people agree that on their day Carty and Carbery are simply better players, but that doesn't matter one iota is Carty's gung ho is causing errors or confidence problems, and if Carbery is injured and unavailable again. If Byrne can keep ticking on with his 7 or 8 out of 10 performances consistently that he has shown in the bigger tests often for Leinster he could well be an option at 10. I hope he grabs this game.

ionadnapokot · 18-11-2020 1:40pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

delighted its JPG and Byrne, rather than Murray and Byrne.

Yea it's good to see.
Interesting that they stuck with Roux considering Henderson is on bench. Scrum probably.

Conway must be injured?

typhoony · 18-11-2020 1:40pm

only 3 Irishmen in the backline, I'll get my coat

typhoony · 18-11-2020 1:44pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I thought VDF was very quite against Wales. I think the other options are probably rightly ahead of him now. That’s not to say he can’t regain form or improve parts of his game, but he will struggle to make the Leinster team and he’s an out-and-out 7 so he’s not a great bench option (unless you have versatile 6-8).

his best option might be to move to another province.

kuang1 · 18-11-2020 1:48pm

Does this mean Murray has lost the 9 Jersey now I wonder?
Properly I mean.

TRC10 · 18-11-2020 1:49pm

typhoony wrote: »

only 3 Irishmen in the backline, I'll get my coat

I counted 4 bro. Unless you left out Farrell, who is from Ulster,
which is in fact, a province on the island of Ireland. Thus making him, an Irishman.

yerrahbah · 18-11-2020 1:55pm

Were this a game to decide the 6 nations I think we would probably see Henderson, Connors, Murray and Conway start

Its nations cup which gives a bit of leeway to experiment.

I certainly wouldn't be saying X is ahead of Y based on this team selection

kingofthekong · 18-11-2020 2:03pm

siltirocker wrote: »

No issues with that team from what we've seen. I think I would have perhaps tried to squeeze in Heffernan. I understand Herring has been doing it the past year or two, and Kelleher is the future. But from watching all three since the restart and these tests Heffernan has been the stand out for me. I'd go as far as saying he is the strongest currently in scrummaging, line out, and, by a country mile, in the loose.

Byrne has been poor in his previous games against England so I hope he turns things around. I think most people agree that on their day Carty and Carbery are simply better players, but that doesn't matter one iota is Carty's gung ho is causing errors or confidence problems, and if Carbery is injured and unavailable again. If Byrne can keep ticking on with his 7 or 8 out of 10 performances consistently that he has shown in the bigger tests often for Leinster he could well be an option at 10. I hope he grabs this game.

Not sure there is an outhalf in the world that wouldve looked good against England when are pack was getting its lunch handed to them

ionadnapokot · 18-11-2020 2:04pm

kuang1 wrote: »

Does this mean Murray has lost the 9 Jersey now I wonder?
Properly I mean.

No chance!
I would think they picked JGB as the best partner for Byrne.
Should have done the same for the Welsh match. But here we are v England
Better late than never i suppose!

CMcsporty · 18-11-2020 2:17pm

typhoony wrote: »

only 3 Irishmen in the backline, I'll get my coat

Oh good. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. It’s windy.

It’s a good selection for building experience although I’m baffled as to why Earls is in.
If England win the toss guess where they will be kicking the ball to?
Hopefully Lowe can be brought into the game frequently.

18-11-2020 2:18pm

typhoony wrote: »

his best option might be to move to another province.

Could see one of the 3 opensides and one of the 3 8s deciding to move at some point alright although murphy,mcgrath,joey haven't gotten much purchase internationaly since moving so who knows

kingofthekong · 18-11-2020 2:19pm

I think they nailed that team, nailed all the tight calls:

Second row: Couldve thrown hendy in but you could really allow Quinn Roux to get some momentum and build on his performace last week by rewarding him with another start, hes also there to give Porter the best possible chance of competing in the scrum - Roux imo is the right call to start

Backrow: Again I think they nailed it, Doris kept on at 8 for the extra threat of the base of the scrum, Stander back in is an obvious one,
the call for POM is the correct one - as a massive POM critic over the last couple years - he has absolutely deserved to be put in this team - I think Sexton being out massively helped his chances of starting to provide back up for Ryan in the cauldron that is Twickenam, love Connors and am a Leinster supporter but its probably the right call given the circumstances - I think his instructions when coming on 50 mins will be to absolutely empty himself in the last 30....cant wait for that

Half Backs: Thank god its JGP and Byrne - Park in for his quick service which will be needed if we are to get any momentum upfront against one of if not the best defenses in world rugby, if JGP starts then Byrne has to start because Burns place kicking questionable, byrnes kicking for goal is exeptional and i think the starting out half was actually more determined by JGP starting ahead of Murray.

centres: Henshaw injury meant centres was an obvious call

Backthree: Conway rightfully dropped for getting pushed into touch fairly easily twice back to back in the redzone - you just cant do that at international level when the margins are so tight , need to be better as an international wing, Lowe in again obvious decision, and Keenan rightfully maintains is spot at fullback - Strange that if fit stockdale not starting ahead of Earls but maybe confidence in Stockdales calf isnt great

CMcsporty · 18-11-2020 2:30pm

Another great test of the Scrum.
Without question it’s been the best aspect of Ireland’s game under Farrell

England turned the screw on them in the 6N though

And Gauzere is ref here as he was for Leinster v Saracens debacle

bilston · 18-11-2020 2:44pm

I'm happy with that selection, personally I'd have started Hendy, but I've no complaints with Roux getting another go...you have to reward good performances.

I also like Connors at 7, but POM has been on good form recently so no issues there, he was deemed good enough to start there for the Lions not so long ago, I like Doris at 8 and obviously CJ needs to be in the side.

Earls looked sharp when he came on last week...Happy to see him in there, a bit of experience there is no bad thing.

It would be nice to see an angry Stockdale in the second half with the bit between his teeth.

18-11-2020 2:51pm

Fascinating team sheet that perhaps answers some of the questions which have been posed on this forum the last while.

Henderson to bench likely a result of a lack of game time but other decisions perhaps indicate a change in pecking order.

I wonder how much of POM to 7 is a reflection of wanting Kelleher at 2. I think to be fair you need to disentangle those two selections and give each player the benefit of the doubt but it's a question that will linger.

Similarly - Farrell seems to prefer the tempo Gibson Park brings and Murray now is in a proper fight. Park has been unreal for Leinster over the last year and a half and he is more familiar with Byrne but as with the 2 / 7 call above - you have to give the benefit of the doubt and see each selection on merit.

Burns seems to be viewed as an impact player, Byrne leapfrogging him somewhat confirms that.

Doris being rewarded for his distribution skills with the 8 jersey. Someone posted during the week that he is more in the Heaslip mold of 8 and I think that's spot on - Stander is a nailed on starter but he isn't a distributer.

It was an inevitability that Lowe would claim a wing spot and if there was any doubt at this stage the selection of Earls at 14 should put that to rest. This is definitely the strongest Irish team that Farrell feels he has at his disposal - the only changes from here will be related to the walking wounded such as Furlong, Henderson, Ringrose, Larmour, Kilcoyne etc.

I think we'll get hosed at the weekend to be honest but I do think this is a pretty pragmatic selection that generally reflects form.

ionadnapokot · 18-11-2020 2:52pm

I dont think Stockdale is the angry type. He's more of a happy head?

Dubinusa · 18-11-2020 2:59pm

Good selection imo. With Sexton out POM has to play. He will steady Ryan as captain.
Roux deserves the chance. Very impressive against Wales, albeit a dire Welch team.
Keenan will be pressured and that's what we need to see. His reaction under pressure will be interesting.
I think Conway should have been selected. But, Earl's is very experienced.
RB has a massive task ahead of him. We will see were he is in terms of top quality opposition. Having JGP beside him will be beneficial.
I reckon we lose. Without Sexton, our chances drop a little. But I believe we can make it very close.

crossman47 · 18-11-2020 3:03pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

I think they nailed that team, nailed all the tight calls:

Second row: Couldve thrown hendy in but you could really allow Quinn Roux to get some momentum and build on his performace last week by rewarding him with another start, hes also there to give Porter the best possible chance of competing in the scrum - Roux imo is the right call to start

Backrow: Again I think they nailed it, Doris kept on at 8 for the extra threat of the base of the scrum, Stander back in is an obvious one,
the call for POM is the correct one - as a massive POM critic over the last couple years - he has absolutely deserved to be put in this team - I think Sexton being out massively helped his chances of starting to provide back up for Ryan in the cauldron that is Twickenam, love Connors and am a Leinster supporter but its probably the right call given the circumstances - I think his instructions when coming on 50 mins will be to absolutely empty himself in the last 30....cant wait for that

Half Backs: Thank god its JGP and Byrne - Park in for his quick service which will be needed if we are to get any momentum upfront against one of if not the best defenses in world rugby, if JGP starts then Byrne has to start because Burns place kicking questionable, byrnes kicking for goal is exeptional and i think the starting out half was actually more determined by JGP starting ahead of Murray.

centres: Henshaw injury meant centres was an obvious call

Backthree: Conway rightfully dropped for getting pushed into touch fairly easily twice back to back in the redzone - you just cant do that at international level when the margins are so tight , need to be better as an international wing, Lowe in again obvious decision, and Keenan rightfully maintains is spot at fullback - Strange that if fit stockdale not starting ahead of Earls but maybe confidence in Stockdales calf isnt great

I'm a great fan of Earls for his service over the years but I can't agree about Conway. Hes done the best he can with limited possession. I know we don't have much choice at centre but Aki offers very little imo.

ionadnapokot · 18-11-2020 3:05pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Fascinating team sheet that perhaps answers some of the questions which have been posed on this forum the last while.

Henderson to bench likely a result of a lack of game time but other decisions perhaps indicate a change in pecking order.

I wonder how much of POM to 7 is a reflection of wanting Kelleher at 2. I think to be fair you need to disentangle those two selections and give each player the benefit of the doubt but it's a question that will linger.

Similarly - Farrell seems to prefer the tempo Gibson Park brings and Murray now is in a proper fight. Park has been unreal for Leinster over the last year and a half and he is more familiar with Byrne but as with the 2 / 7 call above - you have to give the benefit of the doubt and see each selection on merit.

Burns seems to be viewed as an impact player, Byrne leapfrogging him somewhat confirms that.

Doris being rewarded for his distribution skills with the 8 jersey. Someone posted during the week that he is more in the Heaslip mold of 8 and I think that's spot on - Stander is a nailed on starter but he isn't a distributer.

It was an inevitability that Lowe would claim a wing spot and if there was any doubt at this stage the selection of Earls at 14 should put that to rest. This is definitely the strongest Irish team that Farrell feels he has at his disposal - the only changes from here will be related to the walking wounded such as Furlong, Henderson, Ringrose, Larmour, Kilcoyne etc.

I think we'll get hosed at the weekend to be honest but I do think this is a pretty pragmatic selection that generally reflects form.

If we loose but the scrum goes well again, lineout is steady and maul improves i would think Ireland will give themselves a better chance to fire a few shots at England.
Big If's!
I really dont care if we loose. But getting completely dominated by England again would be tough to take.

I do doubt that Murray is been dropped per se.
I fully expect Farrell to start him at 9 with Sexton for 6N

arsebiscuits1 · 18-11-2020 3:09pm

I decided to go back over the England game from the 6N.

Their website actually has a pretty comprehensive stat sheet from the game which is great

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/report/impressive-england-down-ireland-with-first-half-blitz#match-stats

In a lot of aspects, we were pretty even with England that day. We won the second half.

The major glaring differences were that we spent 40% of our possession in our own half. And we only kicked 5% of our possession away.

Combine this with the pretty astonishing stat of 39 dominant tackles out of 214 that England managed and it's enough to show our downfall.

England basically knew we wouldn't try to kick it away and spent the time defending in the middle third of the pitch absolutely blowing us away. This forced us into pressure exits having conceded ground.

Italy showed some very shrew tactics to put England under pressure and I hope we can recreate them.

I want to see a strong day off the boot from JGP and Byrne as well as our back 3.

If we can put England under pressure in their own half we can nullify their smothering rush defence

UAEguy2020 · 18-11-2020 3:12pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

Not sure there is an outhalf in the world that wouldve looked good against England when are pack was getting its lunch handed to them

And also if Ross Byrne has produced some of the shockers that Sexton produces in 2019 we would say he isn’t international level and should be binned but because Sexton is Sexton he got a free pass.

I’m sure with a scoreline of 57-14 there was more problems for Ireland than just who played at 10... the narrative created was Byrne isn’t good enough so when Ireland lost he was the convenient scape goat. Hopefully this weekend the team actually put in a performance that allows Byrne to flourish as it looks like based on social media that the scape goat is already being prepared.

Solutionking · 18-11-2020 3:24pm

I like it, some good changes

Kelleher: I suppose the decision was he has been practicing with Roux/Ryan/POM etc for last few weeks so keep him in the team. I think everyone expected Herring to come back in but will be interesting to see how he goes

Roux: Had a great game v Wales and I think he was the main reason the scrum went so well, similar to Kelleher I think everyone expected Hendo to come back in. The decision to stick with a form player against the old guard is good

Backrow: personally would of had Conners in but I guess POM in to help at lineout and also for Ryan at captain. Good to see Stander back at 6, lets see how he goes

9/10: I think most people would never thought JGP would start after Sexton injury, going with the experience of Murray was expected so very interesting call. Also the call to bring Byrne back in, last time out in Twickers was a nightmare but then again no 10 would of had a good day with the team hammered like that.

Backs: More or less picked themselves due to injury and Conway didn't have great game v Wales. His skill in the air is not required as we dont seem to be kicking the ball.

schmoo2k · 18-11-2020 3:35pm

eclipsechaser wrote: »

I'm glad to hear someone else bring this up. It's staggering the number of penalties given away from holding on when letting go - although frustrating - would leave the team much better off. I can't fathom why teams and players haven't adapted yet.

I second this as a lot of times the jackler may have hands on ball, but is unable to lift it (due to supporting weight via arms and ball) and sometimes even end up falling on it and giving a pen to the attacking team.

Larbre34 · 18-11-2020 3:37pm

He picks on form. Even if its a different XV every week, he will pick on form.

No sacred cows, nobody is safe, I'm behind that all the way.

Harpon · 18-11-2020 3:39pm

I’d have Henderson on in place of POM but apart from that it’s a good selection

theVersatile · 18-11-2020 3:54pm

Harpon wrote: »

I’d have Henderson on in place of POM but apart from that it’s a good selection

Henderson in the back row???

Harpon · 18-11-2020 3:57pm

theVersatile wrote: »

Henderson in the back row???

Yeah, I don’t see why he couldn’t do a good job there, we need the extra bulk against England

razorblunt · 18-11-2020 4:31pm

Harpon wrote: »

Yeah, I don’t see why he couldn’t do a good job there, we need the extra bulk against England

Ah man, there's "doing a job" in the Pro 14 and there's International rugby.

kingofthekong · 18-11-2020 4:52pm

crossman47 wrote: »

I'm a great fan of Earls for his service over the years but I can't agree about Conway. Hes done the best he can with limited possession. I know we don't have much choice at centre but Aki offers very little imo.

Thought AKI was very good against France and offered us gainline every time, not the most creative center partnership though

Paul Smeenus · 18-11-2020 4:57pm

razorblunt wrote: »

Ah man, there's "doing a job" in the Pro 14 and there's International rugby.

To be clear, I don't want to see Hendo at six.

But he's put in superb performances in the HEC at blindside, against the likes of Sarries. I know how you love to pooh-pooh, but don't get carried away with the pooh-pooh.

Paul Weller · 18-11-2020 4:59pm

I can't see that side being within 15 points of England at the games end, hopefully they prove me wrong, but I believe we'll get spanked.

Paul Smeenus · 18-11-2020 5:01pm

Paul Weller wrote: »

I can't see that side being within 15 points of England at the games end, hopefully they prove me wrong, but I believe we'll get spanked.

I downheartedly agree with Back-Up Paul.

UAEguy2020 · 18-11-2020 5:06pm

Harpon wrote: »

Yeah, I don’t see why he couldn’t do a good job there, we need the extra bulk against England

No we don’t, what we need is to use our brain which we have failed to do the last 3 games against England.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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