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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Most of the time, the defensive player doesn't want the ball, they want the penalty, and so they're holding the ball into the prone player and that's just given as holding on. Sometimes the attacking player even pretty clearly releases it, refs are just looking for the defensive player to survive the clearout and keep their hands on the ball.

Indeed. There was a clear case of Dave Kearney having released the ball the other night on the ground. However, I do think the tackled player is often smart enough to use their body to try and guard the ball with their torso or roll on top of the ball slightly to prevent the steal.

A tackled player knows that the breakdown is also enough of a lottery that it's worth holding onto the ball for an extra second or two. There's an excellent chance that the jackling player doesn't hold on or is even pinged for not releasing the tackled player/supporting weight/hands in ruck.

I'd imagine that on the balance of probability, it's worth preventing the turnover and seeing what the outcome is. There's a very good chance your support clears him off before conceding a penalty or the penalty actually goes in your favour for an illegal attempt at turning over possession.

Yeah_Right

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Most of the time, the defensive player doesn't want the ball, they want the penalty, and so they're holding the ball into the prone player and that's just given as holding on. Sometimes the attacking player even pretty clearly releases it, refs are just looking for the defensive player to survive the clearout and keep their hands on the ball.

I've actually seen refs not give the penalty in this situation saying there was no clear attempt to lift the ball and that just touching the ball isn't enough. It may be a SH interpretation though. Also seen them not giving the turnover because the jackler was lifting the player and not the ball.

Someone mentioned players putting their hands on the ground beyond the ball to survive the cleanout and then come back to the ball. This is illegal isn't it?

Sanjuro

D.Q

Sad to say but glad to see the new 9/10 lineup

The Lost Sheep

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I've actually seen refs not give the penalty in this situation saying there was no clear attempt to lift the ball and that just touching the ball isn't enough. It may be a SH interpretation though. Also seen them not giving the turnover because the jackler was lifting the player and not the ball.

Someone mentioned players putting their hands on the ground beyond the ball to survive the cleanout and then come back to the ball. This is illegal isn't it?

Yes it is. Its going off your feet/not supporting your body weight. must go straight in on ball.

aloooof

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Someone mentioned players putting their hands on the ground beyond the ball to survive the cleanout and then come back to the ball. This is illegal isn't it?

Yep. You occasionally see it getting pinged, but with the speed to rucks, it all happens in the blink of an eye. I don't envy the refs, tbh...

sydthebeat

delighted its JPG and Byrne, rather than Murray and Byrne.

aloooof

Happy enough with that. POM in makes sense given Sexton's omission and the troubles in the lineout of late. Big test of the new half-back pairing now. Feel a bit disappointed for Conway, he had been in superb form back pre-Covid.

roverjoyce

5 out of the Starting 15 - bought in
Where is this going to end!

aloooof

roverjoyce wrote: »

5 out of the Starting 15 - bought in
Where is this going to end!

You know they've changed the rule to 5 years, right?

Bazzo

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I've actually seen refs not give the penalty in this situation saying there was no clear attempt to lift the ball and that just touching the ball isn't enough. It may be a SH interpretation though. Also seen them not giving the turnover because the jackler was lifting the player and not the ball.

Someone mentioned players putting their hands on the ground beyond the ball to survive the cleanout and then come back to the ball. This is illegal isn't it?

Happened twice in the Connacht match the other night. Ref told the jackaler "no lift" and let play continue

TRC10

Cant have many complaints with that 23. Glad to see Kelleher get the nod at hooker. Yes he had a couple of missed throws but he was good around the park and at 22, hes the future at hooker. Roux deserves his place after last week. O'Mahony at 7 is interesting. I would have gone for Connors to win the gainline battle which will be so important. His defence against Englands ball carriers could have been crucial but Pete offers other things in terms of lineout and leadership so no real complaints.

Glad JGP is in at 9. His speed of pass and the way he commits fringe defenders will help us get on the front foot and win the gainline battle. Conway hasn't hit his pre-lockdown form so Earl's deserves his chance. His experience will be crucial in a backline that has lost a lot of experience (Murray, Sexton, Henshaw, Ringrose)

Theres also real impact to come off the bench in Henderson, Connors and Stockdale. And I feel like Murray is a great man to close out a game. Overall I like the squad. COYBIG

sydthebeat

roverjoyce wrote: »

5 out of the Starting 15 - bought in
Where is this going to end!

last year...............

so no need to worry

siltirocker

No issues with that team from what we've seen. I think I would have perhaps tried to squeeze in Heffernan. I understand Herring has been doing it the past year or two, and Kelleher is the future. But from watching all three since the restart and these tests Heffernan has been the stand out for me. I'd go as far as saying he is the strongest currently in scrummaging, line out, and, by a country mile, in the loose.

Byrne has been poor in his previous games against England so I hope he turns things around. I think most people agree that on their day Carty and Carbery are simply better players, but that doesn't matter one iota is Carty's gung ho is causing errors or confidence problems, and if Carbery is injured and unavailable again. If Byrne can keep ticking on with his 7 or 8 out of 10 performances consistently that he has shown in the bigger tests often for Leinster he could well be an option at 10. I hope he grabs this game.

ionadnapóca

sydthebeat wrote: »

delighted its JPG and Byrne, rather than Murray and Byrne.

Yea it's good to see.
Interesting that they stuck with Roux considering Henderson is on bench. Scrum probably.

Conway must be injured?

typhoony

only 3 Irishmen in the backline, I'll get my coat

typhoony

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I thought VDF was very quite against Wales. I think the other options are probably rightly ahead of him now. That’s not to say he can’t regain form or improve parts of his game, but he will struggle to make the Leinster team and he’s an out-and-out 7 so he’s not a great bench option (unless you have versatile 6-8).

his best option might be to move to another province.

kuang1

Does this mean Murray has lost the 9 Jersey now I wonder?
Properly I mean.

TRC10

typhoony wrote: »

only 3 Irishmen in the backline, I'll get my coat

I counted 4 bro. Unless you left out Farrell, who is from Ulster,
which is in fact, a province on the island of Ireland. Thus making him, an Irishman.

yerrahbah

Were this a game to decide the 6 nations I think we would probably see Henderson, Connors, Murray and Conway start

Its nations cup which gives a bit of leeway to experiment.

I certainly wouldn't be saying X is ahead of Y based on this team selection

kingofthekong

siltirocker wrote: »

No issues with that team from what we've seen. I think I would have perhaps tried to squeeze in Heffernan. I understand Herring has been doing it the past year or two, and Kelleher is the future. But from watching all three since the restart and these tests Heffernan has been the stand out for me. I'd go as far as saying he is the strongest currently in scrummaging, line out, and, by a country mile, in the loose.

Byrne has been poor in his previous games against England so I hope he turns things around. I think most people agree that on their day Carty and Carbery are simply better players, but that doesn't matter one iota is Carty's gung ho is causing errors or confidence problems, and if Carbery is injured and unavailable again. If Byrne can keep ticking on with his 7 or 8 out of 10 performances consistently that he has shown in the bigger tests often for Leinster he could well be an option at 10. I hope he grabs this game.

Not sure there is an outhalf in the world that wouldve looked good against England when are pack was getting its lunch handed to them

ionadnapóca

kuang1 wrote: »

Does this mean Murray has lost the 9 Jersey now I wonder?
Properly I mean.

No chance!
I would think they picked JGB as the best partner for Byrne.
Should have done the same for the Welsh match. But here we are v England
Better late than never i suppose!

CMcsporty

typhoony wrote: »

only 3 Irishmen in the backline, I'll get my coat

Oh good. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. It’s windy.

It’s a good selection for building experience although I’m baffled as to why Earls is in.
If England win the toss guess where they will be kicking the ball to?
Hopefully Lowe can be brought into the game frequently.

[Deleted User]

typhoony wrote: »

his best option might be to move to another province.

Could see one of the 3 opensides and one of the 3 8s deciding to move at some point alright although murphy,mcgrath,joey haven't gotten much purchase internationaly since moving so who knows

kingofthekong

I think they nailed that team, nailed all the tight calls:

Second row: Couldve thrown hendy in but you could really allow Quinn Roux to get some momentum and build on his performace last week by rewarding him with another start, hes also there to give Porter the best possible chance of competing in the scrum - Roux imo is the right call to start

Backrow: Again I think they nailed it, Doris kept on at 8 for the extra threat of the base of the scrum, Stander back in is an obvious one,
the call for POM is the correct one - as a massive POM critic over the last couple years - he has absolutely deserved to be put in this team - I think Sexton being out massively helped his chances of starting to provide back up for Ryan in the cauldron that is Twickenam, love Connors and am a Leinster supporter but its probably the right call given the circumstances - I think his instructions when coming on 50 mins will be to absolutely empty himself in the last 30....cant wait for that

Half Backs: Thank god its JGP and Byrne - Park in for his quick service which will be needed if we are to get any momentum upfront against one of if not the best defenses in world rugby, if JGP starts then Byrne has to start because Burns place kicking questionable, byrnes kicking for goal is exeptional and i think the starting out half was actually more determined by JGP starting ahead of Murray.

centres: Henshaw injury meant centres was an obvious call

Backthree: Conway rightfully dropped for getting pushed into touch fairly easily twice back to back in the redzone - you just cant do that at international level when the margins are so tight , need to be better as an international wing, Lowe in again obvious decision, and Keenan rightfully maintains is spot at fullback - Strange that if fit stockdale not starting ahead of Earls but maybe confidence in Stockdales calf isnt great

CMcsporty

Another great test of the Scrum.
Without question it’s been the best aspect of Ireland’s game under Farrell

England turned the screw on them in the 6N though

And Gauzere is ref here as he was for Leinster v Saracens debacle

bilston

I'm happy with that selection, personally I'd have started Hendy, but I've no complaints with Roux getting another go...you have to reward good performances.

I also like Connors at 7, but POM has been on good form recently so no issues there, he was deemed good enough to start there for the Lions not so long ago, I like Doris at 8 and obviously CJ needs to be in the side.

Earls looked sharp when he came on last week...Happy to see him in there, a bit of experience there is no bad thing.

It would be nice to see an angry Stockdale in the second half with the bit between his teeth.

[Deleted User]

Fascinating team sheet that perhaps answers some of the questions which have been posed on this forum the last while.

Henderson to bench likely a result of a lack of game time but other decisions perhaps indicate a change in pecking order.

I wonder how much of POM to 7 is a reflection of wanting Kelleher at 2. I think to be fair you need to disentangle those two selections and give each player the benefit of the doubt but it's a question that will linger.

Similarly - Farrell seems to prefer the tempo Gibson Park brings and Murray now is in a proper fight. Park has been unreal for Leinster over the last year and a half and he is more familiar with Byrne but as with the 2 / 7 call above - you have to give the benefit of the doubt and see each selection on merit.

Burns seems to be viewed as an impact player, Byrne leapfrogging him somewhat confirms that.

Doris being rewarded for his distribution skills with the 8 jersey. Someone posted during the week that he is more in the Heaslip mold of 8 and I think that's spot on - Stander is a nailed on starter but he isn't a distributer.

It was an inevitability that Lowe would claim a wing spot and if there was any doubt at this stage the selection of Earls at 14 should put that to rest. This is definitely the strongest Irish team that Farrell feels he has at his disposal - the only changes from here will be related to the walking wounded such as Furlong, Henderson, Ringrose, Larmour, Kilcoyne etc.

I think we'll get hosed at the weekend to be honest but I do think this is a pretty pragmatic selection that generally reflects form.

ionadnapóca

I dont think Stockdale is the angry type. He's more of a happy head?

Dubinusa

Good selection imo. With Sexton out POM has to play. He will steady Ryan as captain.
Roux deserves the chance. Very impressive against Wales, albeit a dire Welch team.
Keenan will be pressured and that's what we need to see. His reaction under pressure will be interesting.
I think Conway should have been selected. But, Earl's is very experienced.
RB has a massive task ahead of him. We will see were he is in terms of top quality opposition. Having JGP beside him will be beneficial.
I reckon we lose. Without Sexton, our chances drop a little. But I believe we can make it very close.