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Predicted Grades Appeals

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    #392
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Treppen wrote: »
    You're conflating the request to have predicted grades with an error in the grading process as being the same cohort complaining.

    Btw it wasn't all students asking for the LC to be cancelled, it was a random Facebook survey filled in by anyone but started by a student.

    Well if we have reached a point where a most critical piece of our education service can be cancelled over a Facebook survey then I think we need to have a closer look at the education of our decision makers.


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    #393
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭Treppen


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    Well if we have reached a point where a most critical piece of our education service can be cancelled over a Facebook survey then I think we need to have a closer look at the education of our decision makers.

    Education of decision makers has nothing to do with it. They want to stay elected so that means going with the Joe Duffys , Dr. Ciara Kelly's and Facebook and Twitter.

    You know yourself how it panned out... By hook or by crook till the Friday. Cancel on following Monday.


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    #394
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    TheValeyard wrote: »
    Pretty sure the govt brought in an indemnity clause to stop that because of the unique case this year.
    Are you a legal expert? I’m pretty sure we’ve been told a lot of things, but I haven’t seen anything to say that we can’t be sued. I’d love it if some legal expert was able to tell us that, but do you know for a fact that we can’t, or is that just your interpretation of this “indemnity clause”?

    I’ve looked up the word indemnity. I don’t see anything that says we can’t be sued in any definition of it, only that we can’t be penalised. Those two are not the same thing at all.
    If someone can point to any official document that says we can’t be sued, I’d feel a lot better, but if you’re pinning your hopes on the word indemnity, I wish I had your confidence.


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    #395
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/first-challenge-to-calculated-grades-system-comes-before-high-court-1.4356307

    And here we go, round 1 or how many.....


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    #396
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    Everyone had to opt in to the system. If you're in you're in. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

    At least they're not looking for compensation out of it.

    I think a defence of going to the institute to get the points is a bit loose. There would be no guarantee to be fair.


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    #397
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    man_no_plan wrote: »
    Everyone had to opt in to the system. If you're in you're in. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

    At least they're not looking for compensation out of it.

    I think a defence of going to the institute to get the points is a bit loose. There would be no guarantee to be fair.

    Surely their "legendary notes" endow all their students with unmatched intellects?


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    #398
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭Treppen


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Are you a legal expert? I’m pretty sure we’ve been told a lot of things, but I haven’t seen anything to say that we can’t be sued. I’d love it if some legal expert was able to tell us that, but do you know for a fact that we can’t, or is that just your interpretation of this “indemnity clause”?

    I’ve looked up the word indemnity. I don’t see anything that says we can’t be sued in any definition of it, only that we can’t be penalised. Those two are not the same thing at all.
    If someone can point to any official document that says we can’t be sued, I’d feel a lot better, but if you’re pinning your hopes on the word indemnity, I wish I had your confidence.

    Suppose you can be sued, but the costs of everything are 'indemnified' by the state.

    Why/how would they sue a teacher anyway?
    Bring in an expert witness... who wasn't their teacher?


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    #399
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭Treppen


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/first-challenge-to-calculated-grades-system-comes-before-high-court-1.4356307

    And here we go, round 1 or how many.....

    Presume this is the deciding test case.

    There was pretty much everything, and the kitchen sink in their argument to warrant nobody else being allowed to take a similar case.


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    #400
    Millionaire only not
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Millionaire only not


    Treppen wrote: »
    Presume this is the deciding test case.

    There was pretty much everything, and the kitchen sink in their argument to warrant nobody else being allowed to take a similar case.

    Tis more of a hard luck story than anything , if she only had one more grade she’d be in .
    Could it be the one that will pull down the house of cards .
    Will Michae’l survive if this goes tits up ?


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    #401
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Millionaire only not wrote: »
    Tis more of a hard luck story than anything , if she only had one more grade she’d be in .
    Could it be the one that will pull down the house of cards .
    Will Michae’l survive if this goes tits up ?

    Michael can't be blamed for this one. This one is squarely at FG's door. Their actions set this in motion! FF have been a disaster but this is one they can't be blamed for.

    There is a buck or two to be made for the legal industry here so they will push these cases if they can at all. But to be fair, I don't see how these cases can hold any water.


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    #402
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    Michael can't be blamed for this one. This one is squarely at FG's door. Their actions set this in motion! FF have been a disaster but this is one they can't be blamed for.
    FG put the wheels in motion, but FF are the ones who look like they were running it when the grades were finalised, having come through the process, and any changes that happened once Joe McHugh stepped aside will be blamed on FF, rightly or wrongly.
    FG have the luxury of being able to say that their model would have avoided all of the problems, no matter how untrue that might be.


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    #403
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    RealJohn wrote: »
    FG put the wheels in motion, but FF are the ones who look like they were running it when the grades were finalised, having come through the process, and any changes that happened once Joe McHugh stepped aside will be blamed on FF, rightly or wrongly.
    FG have the luxury of being able to say that their model would have avoided all of the problems, no matter how untrue that might be.

    They were absolutely mad for taking that portfolio over in my view. MM must have been absolutely desperate to get into the big gig if he didn't see this landmine.


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    #404
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    They were absolutely mad for taking that portfolio over in my view. MM must have been absolutely desperate to get into the big gig if he didn't see this landmine.

    Yep, taking Health and Education was nuts from a political point of view. Any sane politician would have seen those as live grenades and stayed well away. Leo must be cracking himself laughing everyday watching how this plays out, because while it's a coalition, FG will largely come out of this unscathed.


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    #405
    shesty
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    It was FG that decided not to hold the exams.Actually I would go so far to say it was Joe McHugh under strong pressure from one or 2 lobby groups, that advised that decision.The very strong message that the exams would go ahead no matter what, doing a sudden about-turn over a weekend suggests to me that somebody (or somebodies) threw sudden strong weight behind the decision to not hold them, and that was the deciding factor.

    Anything else simply arose from that decision.The only winners in all of it will be the lawyers.FF will simply be mopping up the mess.Not that I am sympathetic tbh, I don't think they need much assistance in messing up by themselves.


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    #406
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    shesty wrote: »
    It was FG that decided not to hold the exams.Actually I would go so far to say it was Joe McHugh under strong pressure from one or 2 lobby groups, that advised that decision.The very strong message that the exams would go ahead no matter what, doing a sudden about-turn over a weekend suggests to me that somebody (or somebodies) threw sudden strong weight behind the decision to not hold them, and that was the deciding factor.

    Anything else simply arose from that decision.The only winners in all of it will be the lawyers.FF will simply be mopping up the mess.Not that I am sympathetic tbh, I don't think they need much assistance in messing up by themselves.
    You’re not wrong, but FG will be seen as having done the right thing (even though it wasn’t) and FF will be seen as having messed it up (even though there was no way it wasn’t going to be a mess once the exams were cancelled).
    I’m no fan of FG, as I’ve said before, but they’ve mopped the floor with FF for the last few months. The only reason they’re not going to bring down the government by mid-October is the fear of how many seats SF might get. If it was just themselves and FF, it’d be a landslide.


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    #407
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    RealJohn wrote: »
    You’re not wrong, but FG will be seen as having done the right thing (even though it wasn’t) and FF will be seen as having messed it up (even though there was no way it wasn’t going to be a mess once the exams were cancelled).

    I think this is the nail on the head. This is the only mess which FF is currently dealing with which I feel any sympathy for them on!


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    #408
    byronbay2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭byronbay2


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Very easy to say that, but even the exams being offered in November aren't what would have been offered originally, with the exception of a few subjects it's 100% exam. So no orals, no music performance, no practical project in construction or engineering, no project in history or geography, no drawing in art. Students signed up to the exams on the understanding that they would be assessed on that basis. Now they are told they are not. With some of those subjects offering up to 50% for the practical component, which would have been taken into account in the predicted grade by the teacher, it would be hard in a lot of cases to improve a grade in November on a 100% written exam for many subjects.

    Any teachers out that could clarify how the ranking was done? If there were 3 honours Irish classes in a school was the ranking provided by the school completed by class or by year? So if there were 3 classes of 30, is your ranking out of 30 or 90?


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    #409
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,137 ✭✭✭✭km79


    byronbay2 wrote: »
    Any teachers out that could clarify how the ranking was done? If there were 3 honours Irish classes in a school was the ranking provided by the school completed by class or by year? So if there were 3 classes of 30, is your ranking out of 30 or 90?

    30
    Each individual class even if you had more than one class per subject


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    #410
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,130 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    So no 'cross moderation' as we used to call it. What a mess.


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    #411
    byronbay2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭byronbay2


    spurious wrote: »
    So no 'cross moderation' as we used to call it. What a mess.

    I would love to know how this algorithm worked! My daughter did music outside of school so according to the guidelines was not part of the class ranking. She was awarded a H2 in the Leaving cert but was predicted a H1 (93%) by her teacher and the portal today says she was ranked 1. She got an A in music in the JC. What part of the algorithm pulled her down from a H1 to a H2?

    She was downgraded in 5 subjects all by a grade. So she was predicted 4H1s and got 4 H2s.


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    #412
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭Treppen


    byronbay2 wrote: »
    I would love to know how this algorithm worked! My daughter did music outside of school so according to the guidelines was not part of the class ranking. She was awarded a H2 in the Leaving cert but was predicted a H1 (93%) by her teacher and the portal today says she was ranked 1. She got an A in music in the JC. What part of the rankingalgorithm pulled her down from a H1 to a H2?

    She was downgraded in 5 subjects all by a grade. So she was predicted 4H1s and got 4 H2s.

    Nobody knows exactly.

    If the department have to provide ranking because of GDPR, then they should provide their algorithm


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    #413
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    spurious wrote: »
    So no 'cross moderation' as we used to call it. What a mess.

    There should have been undocumented cross moderation in the department meeting before results were submitted.


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    #414
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    There should have been undocumented cross moderation in the department meeting before results were submitted.

    We were actually explicitly told to destroy any notes made at those meetings by the DES.


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    #415
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    We were actually explicitly told to destroy any notes made at those meetings by the DES.

    Yes. All I mean is that cross moderation took place.


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    #416
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,137 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    There should have been undocumented cross moderation in the department meeting before results were submitted.

    There was
    But after all that class rankings were still done on an individual class basis
    That’s what was asked .


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    #417
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    byronbay2 wrote: »
    I would love to know how this algorithm worked! My daughter did music outside of school so according to the guidelines was not part of the class ranking. She was awarded a H2 in the Leaving cert but was predicted a H1 (93%) by her teacher and the portal today says she was ranked 1. She got an A in music in the JC. What part of the algorithm pulled her down from a H1 to a H2?

    She was downgraded in 5 subjects all by a grade. So she was predicted 4H1s and got 4 H2s.

    Well she was ranked 1, because she would have been assigned a class of her own essentially. If she had been graded at 43, she would have been still ranked 1.


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    #418
    Leftwaffe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭Leftwaffe


    Some class groups may contain only 1/2 students who are sitting higher or ordinary. The class group itself is given a letter, for example ‘A’. Higher students in that class group will be A1, and ordinary students will be A2.

    Both sets of students are ranked separately. So if only 1 higher student, no matter what result they get, they will be given a ranking of 1.


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    #419
    Millionaire only not
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Millionaire only not


    Saga goes on
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/errors-found-in-leaving-cert-calculated-grades-system-39575956.html


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    #420
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Millionaire only not wrote: »
    Saga goes on
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/errors-found-in-leaving-cert-calculated-grades-system-39575956.html

    The ineptitude of the Department never ceases to amaze me. At least this error will benefit students


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    #421
    scrubs33
    Registered Users Posts: 199 ✭✭scrubs33


    Millionaire only not wrote: »
    Saga goes on
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/errors-found-in-leaving-cert-calculated-grades-system-39575956.html

    I’m shocked,shocked I tell you...:eek:


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