St. Kilians German school open letter to DoES

ReadySteadyGo · 11-09-2020 7:39am

Treppen wrote: »

Yes I'll comment.

Gaelscoileanna are at an advantage because Irish was included in the composite mark for Junior Cert. This goes towards moderating the Leaving Cert grade.

Yes. From my reading of the tech docs, It is very likely that they benefited in their overall results.

Wombatman · 11-09-2020 9:11am

From the letter of complaint sent by The Institute of Education.

Beside the point, but I find it odd how they highlight the need to show 'diversity'.

1. French at Higher level
In 2019, the national H1 rate was 6.6%. In the Institute of Education it was 27%. For the 2020 results, the national average H1 rate jumped to 7.7%, an increase of 17% proportionately, while at The Institute the rate fell to 17.9%.

Applying the national proportionate increase, we would have expected the H1 rate for our students to be 31.5%. 320 students studied French in 2020.

2. Physics at Higher level
In 2019 the national H1 rate was 10.9%. In the Institute of Education it was 20%. For the 2020 results, the national average H1 rate jumped to 15.6%, an increase of 43% proportionately, while at The Institute the rate only increased to 22.6%.

Applying the national proportionate increase, we would have expected the H1 rate for our students to be 28.5%. 208 students studied physics in 2020.

3. Applied Mathematics at Higher level (we have selected H2 to show the level of diversity)
In 2019 the national H2 rate was 19%. In the Institute of education it was 23.8%. For the 2020 results, the national average H2 rate jumped to 26%, an increase of 34% proportionately, while at The Institute the rate decreased to 21.8%.

Applying the national proportionate increase, we would have expected the H2 rate for our students to be 31.89%. 110 students studied Applied Maths in 2020.

The above is only a small sample of the 26 subjects that we teach in the school.

Wombatman · 11-09-2020 1:58pm

On Live Line now.

Mardy Bum · 11-09-2020 4:48pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Anyway, overall most students will get their CAO course tomorrow, or the next one on their list.

That's good isn't it? It is not all about the doctors and the vets and so on, sure most of them fail the HPAT anyway no matter their result.

I think this is a great experiment. And should continue.

It has been an unmitigated disaster to the point where a political intervention resulted in a change to the algorithm at the last minute.

Teachers either cannot or refused to assess their students accurately as a whole across the country (this isn't to say individual teachers did). This is clear now and no amount of "teachers will do it right" will prove otherwise.

Considering the jump in points it is safe to say many will not get their first or second choice.

RealJohn · 12-09-2020 9:47am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Any comment on Gealscoilleanna for LC. They may have been standardised aswell as the German speaking kids.

There's probably less complaining because being in a Gaelcholáiste is less of an advantage in the Irish exam than you would think being an a German school would be for the German exam.
As has been pointed out, parents send their kids to St. Killian's expecting a higher standard of German, are generally quite interested in their kids' education, and then, the German exam is really just a test of whether or not you can read, write, listen with understanding, and speak the language. There's no literature to read and learn. No poetry etc. etc.

The Irish exam is more like the english exam. You don't expect most of the country to get H1s in english, do you? Or a higher proportion of H1s in english speaking schools? Why? Because it's not just a "can you speak and understand english" test.

Add to that, while Gaelcholáistí are seen as being higher achieving in general, there are plenty of Gaelcholáistí that are simply schools in Gaeltacht areas, so they're not attracting a particularly high calibre of student or teacher. They're just the only option locally - again, you wouldn't expect a lot of high achieving students there. There are also a handful of DEIS Gaelcholáistí, and there are lot of english speaking schools who have a good standard of Irish, generally. I imagine schools in Galway, Kerry, Donegal, and to a lesser extent, Mayo, Cork, Meath, Waterford, ... produce high marks in Irish to an extent not far behind the Gaelcholáistí, just because they have enough students who have enough contact with Irish to do so.

None of the above applies to St. Killian's. They are an anomaly, when it comes to German grades in this country, and should have been treated as such, in the interests of fairness.

I have no sympathy for the grind schools personally, but it's nothing to do with privilege. My stance remains that our job as teachers is that we teach our subjects, and that ought to prepare our students for exams. We do not teach for exams. Grind schools undermine that, so I don't care if they get screwed over here, but St. Killian's (and fee-paying schools that are actually schools, rather than exam-result mills) deserve better, not because of "privilege" but because it's the fair and decent thing to do.

They're being punished because leftism is politically popular, and for no other reason.

RealJohn · 12-09-2020 9:48am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Anyway, overall most students will get their CAO course tomorrow, or the next one on their list.

That's good isn't it?

Not if there are students who are not getting them, who would have had they had real exams to sit, no.

Treppen · 12-09-2020 10:35am

In terms of students going to grind schools I would suggest that many aren't the H1ers, but a little bit below.

ted1 · 12-09-2020 10:47am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Any comment on Gealscoilleanna for LC. They may have been standardised aswell as the German speaking kids.

But you sound so bitter. Education is for everyone, Deis, Middle Ground and Private.

It is when the private and the grind schools start moaning you know immediately it is fee related for the future.

No, it’s because their pupils are being discriminated against, while other schools are achieving higher marks that they would have achieved , their pupils are receiving lower.

titan18 · 12-09-2020 11:28am

Bruce college in Cork are complaining now too

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40047530.html

It has been a dismal week, one of the worst,” said Mr Landers, adding that 70% of the school’s students saw their calculated grades reduced by the Department of Education’s standardisation process.

Wombatman · 13-09-2020 10:57am

Quote from the letter:

"How come some students awarded the same calculated mark can be given 2 entirely different grades where there is a deviation of 2 grade levels?"

Anyone have any idea how standardisation can lead to this? We might get closer to the answer tomorrow when students get to see the mark they were awarded my the school.

Treppen · 13-09-2020 11:32am

Wombatman wrote: »

Quote from the letter:

"How come some students awarded the same calculated mark can be given 2 entirely different grades where there is a deviation of 2 grade levels?"

Anyone have any idea how standardisation can lead to this? We might get closer to the answer tomorrow when students get to see the mark they were awarded my the school.

They took Junior Cert results into account.

Wombatman · 13-09-2020 11:36am

Treppen wrote: »

They took Junior Cert results into account.

Not for individuals as AFAIK, just for school.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 13-09-2020 3:08pm

RealJohn wrote: »

There's probably less complaining because being in a Gaelcholáiste is less of an advantage in the Irish exam than you would think being an a German school would be for the German exam.
As has been pointed out, parents send their kids to St. Killian's expecting a higher standard of German, are generally quite interested in their kids' education, and then, the German exam is really just a test of whether or not you can read, write, listen with understanding, and speak the language. There's no literature to read and learn. No poetry etc. etc.

The Irish exam is more like the english exam. You don't expect most of the country to get H1s in english, do you? Or a higher proportion of H1s in english speaking schools? Why? Because it's not just a "can you speak and understand english" test.

Add to that, while Gaelcholáistí are seen as being higher achieving in general, there are plenty of Gaelcholáistí that are simply schools in Gaeltacht areas, so they're not attracting a particularly high calibre of student or teacher. They're just the only option locally - again, you wouldn't expect a lot of high achieving students there. There are also a handful of DEIS Gaelcholáistí, and there are lot of english speaking schools who have a good standard of Irish, generally. I imagine schools in Galway, Kerry, Donegal, and to a lesser extent, Mayo, Cork, Meath, Waterford, ... produce high marks in Irish to an extent not far behind the Gaelcholáistí, just because they have enough students who have enough contact with Irish to do so.

None of the above applies to St. Killian's. They are an anomaly, when it comes to German grades in this country, and should have been treated as such, in the interests of fairness.

I have no sympathy for the grind schools personally, but it's nothing to do with privilege. My stance remains that our job as teachers is that we teach our subjects, and that ought to prepare our students for exams. We do not teach for exams. Grind schools undermine that, so I don't care if they get screwed over here, but St. Killian's (and fee-paying schools that are actually schools, rather than exam-result mills) deserve better, not because of "privilege" but because it's the fair and decent thing to do.

They're being punished because leftism is politically popular, and for no other reason.

So it’s a left wing conspiracy now?

v638sg7k1a92bx · 13-09-2020 3:09pm

ted1 wrote: »

No, it’s because their pupils are being discriminated against, while other schools are achieving higher marks that they would have achieved , their pupils are receiving lower.

Discrimination against middle class privilege kids in private schools. We’ve heard it all now.

Treppen · 13-09-2020 4:13pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Discrimination against middle class privilege kids in private schools. We’ve heard it all now.

Ah leave it out wouldja, it's clear you have a bugbear against a fee charging school.
Teachers were asked for their professional advice and then it was ignored.

Quantum Erasure · 14-09-2020 12:59am

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Discrimination against middle class privilege kids in private schools. We’ve heard it all now.

What would you call it so?

RealJohn · 14-09-2020 5:55am

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

So it’s a left wing conspiracy now?

What points do you disagree with? I made several.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 14-09-2020 2:08pm

RealJohn wrote: »

What points do you disagree with? I made several.

The one where you claimed it was a left wing conspiracy.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 14-09-2020 2:10pm

Treppen wrote: »

Ah leave it out wouldja, it's clear you have a bugbear against a fee charging school.
Teachers were asked for their professional advice and then it was ignored.

Ignoring advice is not discrimination.

I don't have a problem with fee paying schools, I have a problem with some of the most privileged people in society claiming they're being discriminated against.

killbillvol2 · 14-09-2020 2:39pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Ignoring advice is not discrimination.

I don't have a problem with fee paying schools, I have a problem with some of the most privileged people in society claiming they're being discriminated against.

Wrong again.

You have a problem with this particular school and a massive chip on your shoulder.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 14-09-2020 3:16pm

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Wrong again.

You have a problem with this particular school and a massive chip on your shoulder.

Ok then "i'm wrong"

Treppen · 14-09-2020 4:15pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Ignoring advice is not discrimination.

I don't have a problem with fee paying schools, I have a problem with some of the most privileged people in society claiming they're being discriminated against.

So your saying that no students were discriminated against and the system was 100% fair?

RealJohn · 14-09-2020 7:39pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

The one where you claimed it was a left wing conspiracy.

Those were your words, not mine. I never said anything about a left wing conspiracy. There was nothing conspiratorial about it. It was a populist decision.

What else? If that was all you can disagree with, why are you still arguing?

RealJohn · 14-09-2020 7:40pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

... I have a problem with some of the most privileged people in society claiming they're being discriminated against.

That's what's happening though, in this case. Do you have a problem with them claiming it, or with the fact that it's actually true?

Bobtheman · 14-09-2020 10:14pm

Legal action will decide this. Unfortunately the department made the wrong call. Cancelling exam. I'm still trying to figure out the system they operated.
The department has shifted last ten years towards the needs of the disadvantaged unfortunately without enough cash.
I'm not really surprised at this. Interesting to see how FG handles this. Unfortunately for FG they don't get a huge amount of lowe class votes !

v638sg7k1a92bx · 15-09-2020 10:15am

RealJohn wrote: »

That's what's happening though, in this case. Do you have a problem with them claiming it, or with the fact that it's actually true?

You cry foul over some warped sense of discrimination against one of the most privileged groups in Ireland yet students from lower income families are discriminated against EVERY year in a points based leaving cert system that is entirely stacked against them and weighed brutally in favour of students who attend fee paying schools and not a dickey bird from teachers or posters on here.

Interesting I note that some of the posters on this thread were advocating affirmative action in the U.S. when commenting around the blm protests. Consider this a form of affirmative action in Ireland, might make you feel better.

rainbowtrout · 15-09-2020 10:49am

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

You cry foul over some warped sense of discrimination against one of the most privileged groups in Ireland yet students from lower income families are discriminated against EVERY year in a points based leaving cert system that is entirely stacked against them and weighed brutally in favour of students who attend fee paying schools and not a dickey bird from teachers or posters on here.

Except it's not. The students sit exams anonymously, the system is not weighed in favour of students from fee paying schools. Some students are priveleged because their parents can afford grinds, extra curricular activities and other resources in their home lives. Some of these attend fee paying schools because their parents can afford it. Some of them have parents who are well educated and have good jobs and can pay for all of this. Some of these students are academically bright and will achieve wherever they go. They happen to go to fee paying schools and there is a concentration of them in one schools so the results are above average.

Like was said here a few days ago, if you took the entire student body out of one of these fee paying schools and swapped it with a lower achieving deis school you would still more or less get the same results because they have the supports and resources outside school.

You could send the 400 deis students to the fee paying school and they still wouldn't have the resources outside school to achieve to the levels you are magically attributing to simply attending a fee paying school.

The school that has finished top in the country in the feeder schools for third level is Cnoc na Labhras/Laurel Hill in Limerick City. It's not a fee paying school. However it is a Gaelscoil. Think about that for a second. Many students who have some form of special needs have an exemption in Irish, so they will avoid attending a Gaelscoil. Learning through Irish is an extra layer of work if it is not your first language and Limerick City is not a Gaeltacht area so you are choosing (for your child) to add an extra layer of work to their education. Parents that are choosing to send their children their are proactively choosing this type of education. That automatically filters out a subsection of the potential student cohort who have some learning difficulties and selects for students who will work, because they have to just to understand what is going on in class. It's not a magic formula.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 15-09-2020 11:17am

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Except it's not. The students sit exams anonymously, the system is not weighed in favour of students from fee paying schools. Some students are priveleged because their parents can afford grinds, extra curricular activities and other resources in their home lives. Some of these attend fee paying schools because their parents can afford it. Some of them have parents who are well educated and have good jobs and can pay for all of this. Some of these students are academically bright and will achieve wherever they go. They happen to go to fee paying schools and there is a concentration of them in one schools so the results are above average.

Like was said here a few days ago, if you took the entire student body out of one of these fee paying schools and swapped it with a lower achieving deis school you would still more or less get the same results because they have the supports and resources outside school.

You could send the 400 deis students to the fee paying school and they still wouldn't have the resources outside school to achieve to the levels you are magically attributing to simply attending a fee paying school.

The school that has finished top in the country in the feeder schools for third level is Cnoc na Labhras/Laurel Hill in Limerick City. It's not a fee paying school. However it is a Gaelscoil. Think about that for a second. Many students who have some form of special needs have an exemption in Irish, so they will avoid attending a Gaelscoil. Learning through Irish is an extra layer of work if it is not your first language and Limerick City is not a Gaeltacht area so you are choosing (for your child) to add an extra layer of work to their education. Parents that are choosing to send their children their are proactively choosing this type of education. That automatically filters out a subsection of the potential student cohort who have some learning difficulties and selects for students who will work, because they have to just to understand what is going on in class. It's not a magic formula.

Interesting word salad but the data would suggest otherwise.

RealJohn · 15-09-2020 12:28pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Interesting word salad but the data would suggest otherwise.

What data? Feel free to provide specific examples.

RealJohn · 15-09-2020 12:32pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

You cry foul over some warped sense of discrimination against one of the most privileged groups in Ireland yet students from lower income families are discriminated against EVERY year in a points based leaving cert system that is entirely stacked against them and weighed brutally in favour of students who attend fee paying schools and not a dickey bird from teachers or posters on here.

If you don’t understand what discrimination means, you’re not equipped to have this discussion. If you think anything you’ve said in this paragraph is due to discrimination, you don’t understand what discrimination means.
People aren’t equal in every way. That does not mean that the system is discriminatory. This year, it was. Normally, it’s not.

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Interesting I note that some of the posters on this thread were advocating affirmative action in the U.S. when commenting around the blm protests. Consider this a form of affirmative action in Ireland, might make you feel better.

Some people might have said that, but I’m not one of them, so how about you address the points I’ve made, rather than lazily lumping me in with a group you think you have the jump on, when I’m not in that group.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 15-09-2020 1:52pm

RealJohn wrote: »

If you don’t understand what discrimination means, you’re not equipped to have this discussion. If you think anything you’ve said in this paragraph is due to discrimination, you don’t understand what discrimination means.
People aren’t equal in every way. That does not mean that the system is discriminatory. This year, it was. Normally, it’s not.

Some people might have said that, but I’m not one of them, so how about you address the points I’ve made, rather than lazily lumping me in with a group you think you have the jump on, when I’m not in that group.

OMG, how could you be so deluded. The system only discriminates against the and most privileged in society?

I think you seriously need to check your privilege.

RealJohn · 15-09-2020 2:29pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

The system only discriminates against the and most privileged in society?

That’s the second time you’ve misrepresented me. If you can’t make an honest argument, it’s a good bet that you actually know you’re wrong.
Are you capable of addressing what I said honestly, with an intelligent rebuttal, or are you just a wind-up merchant?
I’m not going to tell you what the only other option is because it’s against the charter, but if it’s not 1 or 2, it’s definitely 3.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 15-09-2020 5:14pm

Treppen wrote: »

Well that wasn't me anyway so maybe I'm free to speak now...

Every teacher including yourself should feel aggrieved if a student was discriminated against, no matter where they come from.

If you think it's fine then you are probably thinking the system is fair. So you must also be happy to know there were schools who probably found out how to manipulate this 'fair' system... quite a few of them fee-charging. Not only that, but certain students were marked down by schools to maximise the 625s.
You won't hear about these on the radio btw, especially not this year.

You still happy with the system?

I've never been happy with "the system" I just find it amusing that people from certain quarters are crying discrimination when the system has been stacked in their favour at the expense of others for literally decades.

RealJohn · 15-09-2020 5:27pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

I've never been happy with "the system" I just find it amusing that people from certain quarters are crying discrimination when the system has been stacked in their favour at the expense of others for literally decades.

This continues to be untrue though, no matter how many times you say it. Could you please explain, in clear, unbiased terms, how the sytem has been "stacked in favour" of anyone, "at the expense of" anyone "for literally decades"?

It is very clear that there was discrimination in the results this year. You have claimed repeatedly that the exams discriminate every year, but I haven't seen you provide a single example. Other than the fact that the purpose of exams is discrimination (ie. discriminating between people, based on their level of knowledge in a given subject area), how have the exams been historically biased against any group (other than maybe against immigrants who can't speak english or Irish)?

v638sg7k1a92bx · 15-09-2020 6:44pm

RealJohn wrote: »

This continues to be untrue though, no matter how many times you say it. Could you please explain, in clear, unbiased terms, how the sytem has been "stacked in favour" of anyone, "at the expense of" anyone "for literally decades"?

It is very clear that there was discrimination in the results this year. You have claimed repeatedly that the exams discriminate every year, but I haven't seen you provide a single example. Other than the fact that the purpose of exams is discrimination (ie. discriminating between people, based on their level of knowledge in a given subject area), how have the exams been historically biased against any group (other than maybe against immigrants who can't speak english or Irish)?

I don't have the time or the crayons to explain it to you.

killbillvol2 · 15-09-2020 7:17pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

I don't have the time or the crayons to explain it to you.

The irony.

rainbowtrout · 15-09-2020 7:19pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

I don't have the time or the crayons to explain it to you.

So you're just here to troll because you don't actually have a point that you can back up?

RealJohn · 15-09-2020 7:25pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

I don't have the time or the crayons to explain it to you.

In other words, you can't. That's fine. You're wrong. I know you're wrong. You know you're wrong. Everyone else knows you're wrong. Go be wrong somewhere else.

spurious · 15-09-2020 7:29pm

Let's leave Black Lives Matter and crayons out of it and stay on topic.

Bobtheman · 15-09-2020 8:30pm

The CAO points system is unfair to all students.
A guy who loves say accountancy/ business might find it hard to get into UCD commerce. There are now at least lots of Back door routes now at least.
However it needs to be said alot of working class kids don't bother their hole working. It's not simply grinds and Private schools. It's hard work bred into them.
In our school they get free books and study but you are hard pressed to get a lot of them to do any.

Tow · 23-09-2020 2:10pm

St Kilian's have taken a High Court case

Leaving Cert students at fee-paying south Dublin school launch High Court case against Government:
https://www.thejournal.ie/st-kilians-german-school-calculated-grades-high-court-5212814-Sep2020/

St. Kilians German school open letter to DoES

Comments