Thank you, re palm oil

Graces7 · 12-11-2018 4:01pm #1

My sincere thanks to the boardsie who posted this,,,

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theg...alm-oil-banned

I am ashamed that I had no idea. None. It has haunted me since and today I spent literally hours here online tracking palm oil in the foods I use most. Shocked and appalled at the extent of this.

Did folk here know?

I read the ingredients on every food I use most; palm oil everywhere. Orang utans such wonderful critters.

Instant noodles... most cheaper ranges that many of us on pensions rely on.... biscuits, a lot of breads. Treats like chocolate.

One of the worst offenders is cadburys and I am gutted. Oh I think the only trad sweets not affected are Bounty Bars and Smarties. ( I got the tesco sweets page up on the shopping list and went right through it checking ingredients)

So I really have to change what I buy and eat or be a complete hypocrite

biko · 12-11-2018 4:09pm

Link doesn't work, this sometimes happen when you copy it from google results page instead of from the actual page

If this is about the Iceland advert there is already a thread on it.

Graces7 · 12-11-2018 4:13pm

biko wrote: »

Link doesn't work, this sometimes happen when you copy it from google results page instead of from the actual page

If this is about the Iceland advert there is already a thread on it.

I copied from the other thread?

Yes I know there is another thread, but it had got very over political and then died, and my take is of personal responsibility and involvement.

There was one on reddit a while ago where folk listed foods containing palm oil so we can choose to veto it.

Up to the moderators; just the site of orang utans...... if we do not act they will all be gone in a few decades.

biko · 12-11-2018 4:18pm

Ok, you need to open the link and then copy URL, then it will work

LirW · 12-11-2018 4:24pm

That and single use plastic is quite a bugbear of mine. But when you're a consumer with a limited budget you have to pick your battles and make the call.
I'm not big on convenience food and cook very mostly from scratch but I have a set budget for the weekly shopping each week.

It is difficult to get out of the habits, every single one of us contributes to the problem in some way and it's mainly because it's a major convenience.
At the end of the day it's also a cheap ingredient and cheap puts the price into range of the vast majority of shoppers. Products without palm oil are often either "accidentally" palm oil free or it's a decision to keep it ethically in a good level and this comes with a price that sometimes I simply can't pay.

Since we rely so much on convenience products (that's why they're there, people buy them) and want it all for a good price, cheap wins. That's especially difficult for people that genuinely can't pay a higher price for a better product. Poor gets to pick up the scraps and some of the packaged products you'd rather not eat.

But the upside: I think this is going to be the next big thing that will get attention in the media so eventually the awareness will be raised.

Graces7 · 12-11-2018 4:26pm

biko wrote: »

Ok, you need to open the link and then copy URL, then it will work

Thank you; I think this wil lwork

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/09/iceland-christmas-ad-palm-oil-banned

Graces7 · 12-11-2018 4:31pm

LirW wrote: »

That and single use plastic is quite a bugbear of mine. But when you're a consumer with a limited budget you have to pick your battles and make the call.
I'm not big on convenience food and cook very mostly from scratch but I have a set budget for the weekly shopping each week.

It is difficult to get out of the habits, every single one of us contributes to the problem in some way and it's mainly because it's a major convenience.
At the end of the day it's also a cheap ingredient and cheap puts the price into range of the vast majority of shoppers. Products without palm oil are often either "accidentally" palm oil free or it's a decision to keep it ethically in a good level and this comes with a price that sometimes I simply can't pay.

Since we rely so much on convenience products (that's why they're there, people buy them) and want it all for a good price, cheap wins. That's especially difficult for people that genuinely can't pay a higher price for a better product. Poor gets to pick up the scraps and some of the packaged products you'd rather not eat.

But the upside: I think this is going to be the next big thing that will get attention in the media so eventually the awareness will be raised.

Agree totally. I am limited in what I can eat as well.... But I will prune and change.

Dratted peanut butter.... will scour tesco on wednesday.... and biscuits...

aldi claim that their own brand uses only responsibly sourced palm oil, but reading around it is dubious that that is anything valid.

Hector Savage · 12-11-2018 4:45pm

Heartbreaking, I do see more foods with "No Palm oil" marked on them, and we do our best, but damn it there is so much foods that do have it.

:mad:

at the end of the day people just don't give a sh1t ...

Deebles McBeebles · 12-11-2018 4:49pm

You have to ask the question of these palm oil free foods, what are they putting in there then? Is it just replacing the problem du jour with something just as destructive to wildlife habitat?

Its bloody never ending.

igCorcaigh · 12-11-2018 4:51pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Agree totally. I am limited in what I can eat as well.... But I will prune and change.

Dratted peanut butter.... will scour tesco on wednesday.... and biscuits...

aldi claim that their own brand uses only responsibly sourced palm oil, but reading around it is dubious that that is anything valid.

I think Kelkin brand is just peanuts and sea salt. There should be no need to add extra oil. It does cost more, but it is a good peanut butter.

12-11-2018 4:56pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Agree totally. I am limited in what I can eat as well.... But I will prune and change.

Dratted peanut butter.... will scour tesco on wednesday.... and biscuits...

aldi claim that their own brand uses only responsibly sourced palm oil, but reading around it is dubious that that is anything valid.

Aldi and Tesco both do own brand 100% peanut butter, so no palm oil. Lots of places are doing the Meridian one is massive tubs as well. it is a bit messier to use than normal peanut butter, but much nicer and completely palm oil free.

Midnight Sundance · 12-11-2018 4:59pm

https://6gupp2m546k1gbxng1rlf2m3-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/SustainablePalmOilShoppingList-v2Aug2018.pdf

Found a list of products that use 100percent sustainable palm oil .

ToddyDoody · 13-11-2018 7:24am

Alas if its not this thing its another that is destroying the planet. Maybe the Green Party might get a bit of a boost on any heightened concerns.

Graces7 · 13-11-2018 7:32am

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

You have to ask the question of these palm oil free foods, what are they putting in there then? Is it just replacing the problem du jour with something just as destructive to wildlife habitat?

Its bloody never ending.

No; they are going back to what we had before palm oil, as the ingredients labels tell us. Olive oil, coconut oil..... safe and safely produced. They cost more than palm oil. This was all done on price.

Palm oil got in as it did because it is cheap. Cheap as it is cultivated in dirt poor countries using child labour, and with no care for the environment .

Palm oil is not even a healthy option; just dirt cheap. Not looked at spreads etc as I use butter.

Graces7 · 13-11-2018 7:34am

Midnight Sundance wrote: »

https://6gupp2m546k1gbxng1rlf2m3-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/SustainablePalmOilShoppingList-v2Aug2018.pdf

Found a list of products that use 100percent sustainable palm oil .

That is being challenged and questioned too . That is what Cadbury tried to say and they got thrown out of the association.

Palm oil is unhealthy. Going for palm oil free here.

Just checked that list and it is wildly inaccurate. And nothing on the packs that says sustainable.

Graces7 · 13-11-2018 7:39am

ToddyDoody wrote: »

Alas if its not this thing its another that is destroying the planet. Maybe the Green Party might get a bit of a boost on any heightened concerns.

In New Zealand people got Cadbury to drop palm oil totally by campaigning.

Up to us. Not any party

Fr_Dougal · 13-11-2018 7:44am

Graces7 wrote: »

My sincere thanks to the boardsie who posted this,,,

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theg...alm-oil-banned

I am ashamed that I had no idea. None. It has haunted me since and today I spent literally hours here online tracking palm oil in the foods I use most. Shocked and appalled at the extent of this.

Did folk here know?

I read the ingredients on every food I use most; palm oil everywhere. Orang utans such wonderful critters.

Instant noodles... most cheaper ranges that many of us on pensions rely on.... biscuits, a lot of breads. Treats like chocolate.

One of the worst offenders is cadburys and I am gutted. Oh I think the only trad sweets not affected are Bounty Bars and Smarties. ( I got the tesco sweets page up on the shopping list and went right through it checking ingredients)

So I really have to change what I buy and eat or be a complete hypocrite

It has been constantly written about, nothing new.

Welcome to 8+ years ago. https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/online-protest-drives-nestl-to-environmentally-friendly-palm-oil-1976443.html

Graces7 · 13-11-2018 7:49am

Aegir wrote: »

Aldi and Tesco both do own brand 100% peanut butter, so no palm oil. Lots of places are doing the Meridian one is massive tubs as well. it is a bit messier to use than normal peanut butter, but much nicer and completely palm oil free.

Thank you.

It IS the cost. Two or three times the cost of what I have been buying. Will find something! More home made jam....

Being English, Cadbury was such a hugely respected name. The history of the firm, the truly philanthropic work they started. The "model village" they created for workers was a total innovation

Always loved Roses; as far back as the late 40s so a change coming.

Glad though of the awareness and about to email my shopping list in, cropped and altered. Challenges are good...
even at nearly 80 years!

Blessings and thanks..

erica74 · 13-11-2018 7:49am

25 orangutans a day are lost to this problem, whether they die directly or indirectly.

I'd be interested to know what percentage of palm oil is exported and what percentage is used within the country of origin and what percentage of palm oil is used by African people around the world compared to non-African people (unlikely to ever find those figures).
The reason I wonder about this is because palm oil is very widely used among the African community in Ireland (and presumably other countries) so (a) it must be easily available in African shops (I know I've never seen it on sale in regular grocery shops) and (b) it must be quite commonly used by Africans when cooking here in Ireland so presumably it's quite common to use it in Africa.

Graces7 · 13-11-2018 7:53am

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

It has been

constantly

written about, nothing new.

Welcome to 8+ years ago. https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/online-protest-drives-nestl-to-environmentally-friendly-palm-oil-1976443.html

It just never hit the news as it is now, thanks, and I mean THANKS to Iceland . New to many here ....

Needed this kind of exposure and impact.
Hope it gathers momentum and something changes. Has done here.

Those beautiful creatures so endangered

Graces7 · 13-11-2018 7:57am

erica74 wrote: »

25 orangutans a day are lost to this problem, whether they die directly or indirectly.

I'd be interested to know what percentage of palm oil is exported and what percentage is used within the country of origin and what percentage of palm oil is used by African people around the world compared to non-African people (unlikely to ever find those figures).
The reason I wonder about this is because palm oil is very widely used among the African community in Ireland (and presumably other countries) so (a) it must be easily available in African shops (I know I've never seen it on sale in regular grocery shops) and (b) it must be quite commonly used by Africans when cooking here in Ireland so presumably it's quite common to use it in Africa.

Dear Lord; that figure is appalling. Has to be stopped.

It is cheap and often poor folk and poor countries cannot afford the luxury of choice .

Using sunflower oil and coconut oil here now... butter and lard.

whisky_galore · 13-11-2018 7:59am

ToddyDoody wrote: »

Alas if its not this thing its another that is destroying the planet. Maybe the Green Party might get a bit of a boost on any heightened concerns.

Nope. Farmers hate them, anyone with a petrol or diesel car will hate them, anyone not spinning their own clothes and heating their house with their own farts hate them. It's a special interest party for the affluent and won't get anywhere here.

pwurple · 13-11-2018 8:03am

Graces7 wrote: »

Using sunflower oil and coconut oil here now... butter and lard.

Coconut oil is also destructive. And massive air miles obviously.

Fr Tod Umptious · 13-11-2018 8:45am

Ah come on folks we can't have the consumer society we crave without something being destroyed.

Before that great Iceland ad not many really gave a fcuk about what palm oil did or did not do.

So we move on from palm oil but soooner or later realise that the short term alternative is too expensive.
But by that time the manufacturer has come up with a cheap alternative, but that cheap alternative involves destroying something else

And it goes on and on and on.

If we want 'cheap' consumer goods something has to be destroyed.

Only those well off can chose to be as socially/environmentally conscious as they want to be.

Graces7 · 13-11-2018 8:50am

pwurple wrote: »

Coconut oil is also destructive. And massive air miles obviously.

explain please? orang utans? air miles? Apply to oranges etc... But make YOUR choice for YOUR life as I am doing for mine.
and happy to do so

Graces7 · 13-11-2018 8:56am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Ah come on folks we can't have the consumer society we crave without something being destroyed.

Before that great Iceland ad not many really gave a fcuk about what palm oil did or did not do.

So we move on from palm oil but soooner or later realise that the short term alternative is too expensive.
But by that time the manufacturer has come up with a cheap alternative, but that cheap alternative involves destroying something else

And it goes on and on and on.

If we want 'cheap' consumer goods something has to be destroyed.

Only those well off can chose to be as socially/environmentally conscious as they want to be.

Not many of us really knew.

And your last para is not true. I have altered my diet and shopping easily now that I know. Took me all of ten minutes to change the list. even found a palm oil free peanut butter at SV within my reach

And no, no need to destroy animal life as with palm oil . No need to destroy anything. Inexpensive is easily achieved for those who need. Regardless of income.
Always the choice is free to make. Made in this dwelling and this life where palm oil is concerned.

A postitive step. Thank you Iceland and the original poster.. THANK YOU!

Fr_Dougal · 13-11-2018 8:59am

Graces7 wrote: »

It just never hit the news as it is now, thanks, and I mean THANKS to Iceland . New to many here ....

Needed this kind of exposure and impact.
Hope it gathers momentum and something changes. Has done here.

Those beautiful creatures so endangered

Well...it did...that’s why I quoted a news article, one of probably thousands that have been written.

Only difference now is that the message has been dumbed down for the masses, no doubt the ‘liked and shared, hun’ crew will be all over this with their faux outrage, whilst still buying products/chocolate with palm oil for de childers to enjoy over Xmas.

troyzer · 13-11-2018 9:12am

Most of the alternatives for palm oil are even worse.

The problem isn't palm oil itself, it's where it's planted. Palm oil is three times more productive per square kilometre than other plant oils.

This is the real issue, the insatiable demand for plant oils cannot be met without an enormous footprint. It doesn't matter whether it's palm oil, olive oil or sunflower oil. You have to get rid of plant oils full stop or at least massively reduce them. Substitution won't work, it'll make it worse. Elimination is the only option.

And that means everyone needs to give up the processed foods that make up 90% of their diet, which isn't a bad thing anyway. Until we do that, palm oil is the least ****ty plant oil.

As far as sustainable palm oil goes? It doesn't really exist. Sustainable palm oil is accredited by RSPO which is an industry body. They only specify that it can't come from an area of high ecological value. Which is really, really vague, has no legal meaning and doesn't stop them from burning forests in areas where Orangutans are and simply calling it low ecological value.

Another problem is that we might be super aware of the problem but as with most global issues nowadays, it's China and India that are the biggest consumers of palm oil and they couldn't care less about sustainability. These are countries with enormous poverty rates and they're not going to choose a more expensive alternative because a rich westerner tells them to.

Most NGOs don't want people to boycott palm oil, including Greenpeace, because then the issue is solved in our minds and we stop caring while the producers simply switch to Coconut oil instead which as I said already is even worse.

Fr_Dougal · 13-11-2018 9:17am

Maybe ICELAND would be better off not selling products with palm oil, put their money where their mouth is.

A 1min search on their site: https://groceries.iceland.co.uk/daim-caramel-ice-cream-with-milk-chocolate-coated-daim-pieces-3-x-110ml-ml-/p/63355

Cheap marketing.

troyzer · 13-11-2018 9:23am

Graces7 wrote: »

Not many of us really knew.

And your last para is not true. I have altered my diet and shopping easily now that I know. Took me all of ten minutes to change the list. even found a palm oil free peanut butter at SV within my reach

And no, no need to destroy animal life as with palm oil . No need to destroy anything. Inexpensive is easily achieved for those who need. Regardless of income.
Always the choice is free to make. Made in this dwelling and this life where palm oil is concerned.

A postitive step. Thank you Iceland and the original poster.. THANK YOU!

This has been an ongoing issue for decades which has gotten huge media coverage. I mean, credit to Iceland for sharing a message with people who didn't know. But were you living under a rock? I find it astonishing in 2018 that some people have only just learned about palm oil.

Did you also know that beef farming in Ireland is putting out huge carbon emissions and making it impossible for us to meet our climate targets? Did you know that the use of pesticides is wiping out bee populations? Did you know that agriculture in general has annihilated biodiversity in Ireland and that we're the most deforested country in Europe?

All of these are really common knowledge but it wouldn't surprise me if you didn't know any of them. Maybe you should spend more time reading the news?

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Well...it did...that’s why I quoted a news article, one of probably thousands that have been written.

Only difference now is that the message has been dumbed down for the masses, no doubt the ‘liked and shared, hun’ crew will be all over this with their faux outrage, whilst still buying products/chocolate with palm oil for de childers to enjoy over Xmas.

Yup. Depressing.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 13-11-2018 9:53am

troyzer wrote: »

This has been an ongoing issue for decades which has gotten huge media coverage. I mean, credit to Iceland for sharing a message with people who didn't know. But were you living under a rock? I find it astonishing in 2018 that some people have only just learned about palm oil.

Did you also know that beef farming in Ireland is putting out huge carbon emissions and making it impossible for us to meet our climate targets? Did you know that the use of pesticides is wiping out bee populations? Did you know that agriculture in general has annihilated biodiversity in Ireland and that we're the most deforested country in Europe?

All of these are really common knowledge but it wouldn't surprise me if you didn't know any of them. Maybe you should spend more time reading the news?

Yup. Depressing.

It's staggering that some people only seem to have become aware of the Palm Oil issue now. The advert wasn't, and didn't claim to be , a news flash but was an effort to call a halt to the damage being done. This issue has been well flagged for over 20 years.

erica74 · 13-11-2018 10:17am

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Maybe ICELAND would be better off not selling products with palm oil, put their money where their mouth is.

A 1min search on their site: https://groceries.iceland.co.uk/daim-caramel-ice-cream-with-milk-chocolate-coated-daim-pieces-3-x-110ml-ml-/p/63355

Cheap marketing.

I think their aim is to sell no "own brand" products which contain palm oil. However, obviously, if they're really committed, they should stop selling any products which contain palm oil.

I'm also amazed by people who have just discovered this issue. I've been aware of this for a few years as I began cleaning up my diet around 5 years ago and became really conscious of reading food labels. However, I'll be honest and say, I never would have put a number like "25 orangutans lost per day" on this issue.

13-11-2018 10:43am

Graces7 wrote: »

Thank you.

It IS the cost. Two or three times the cost of what I have been buying. Will find something! More home made jam....

Being English, Cadbury was such a hugely respected name. The history of the firm, the truly philanthropic work they started. The "model village" they created for workers was a total innovation

Always loved Roses; as far back as the late 40s so a change coming.

Glad though of the awareness and about to email my shopping list in, cropped and altered. Challenges are good...
even at nearly 80 years!

Blessings and thanks..

look for the Tesco and Aldi ones. They are own brand and not that much more expensive. The aldi one in a plastic tub looks to be either a rip off of, or made by Meridian.

It isn't just food though, Bio Diesel is also a big user of palm oil and although the worst way of producing this fuel, it also provides a massive income for poor farmers in countries like Malaysia.

Fr Tod Umptious · 13-11-2018 11:16am

troyzer wrote: »

This has been an ongoing issue for decades which has gotten huge media coverage. I mean, credit to Iceland for sharing a message with people who didn't know. But were you living under a rock? I find it astonishing in 2018 that some people have only just learned about palm oil.

Did you also know that beef farming in Ireland is putting out huge carbon emissions and making it impossible for us to meet our climate targets? Did you know that the use of pesticides is wiping out bee populations? Did you know that agriculture in general has annihilated biodiversity in Ireland and that we're the most deforested country in Europe?

All of these are really common knowledge but it wouldn't surprise me if you didn't know any of them. Maybe you should spend more time reading the news?

Yup. Depressing.

But you can't be against beef farming in Ireland because it would adversely affect our economy in a huge way.

It's easy to be against something far away in the jungle.

But has anyone considered how much palm oil cultivation had added to the local economies ?

Remember about 10 years ago a supermarket chain had a great idea about putting 'air miles' on food to make people more conscious of their carbon footprint
Items that were more locally produced had less 'air miles'and thus a smaller carbon footprint.

Well it was not long until people realised that the carbon footprint of a strawberry grown in the south of England in December is greater than that of one grown in its natural climate.
And not only that But the poor farmer in that natural climate was being put out of business by the industrial strawberry production in the south of England.

13-11-2018 11:28am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But has anyone considered how much palm oil cultivation had added to the local economies ?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/how-palm-oil-ban-has-made-the-eu-a-dirty-word-in-malaysia

erica74 · 13-11-2018 11:41am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But you can't be against beef farming in Ireland because it would adversely affect our economy in a huge way.

It's easy to be against something far away in the jungle.

But has anyone considered how much palm oil cultivation had added to the local economies ?

Remember about 10 years ago a supermarket chain had a great idea about putting 'air miles' on food to make people more conscious of their carbon footprint
Items that were more locally produced had less 'air miles'and thus a smaller carbon footprint.

Well it was not long until people realised that the carbon footprint of a strawberry grown in the south of England in December is greater than that of one grown in its natural climate.
And not only that But the poor farmer in that natural climate was being put out of business by the industrial strawberry production in the south of England.

I don't think the majority of people actually realise how much our economy relies on beef farming.

troyzer · 13-11-2018 11:47am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But you can't be against beef farming in Ireland because it would adversely affect our economy in a huge way.

It's easy to be against something far away in the jungle.

But has anyone considered how much palm oil cultivation had added to the local economies ?

Remember about 10 years ago a supermarket chain had a great idea about putting 'air miles' on food to make people more conscious of their carbon footprint
Items that were more locally produced had less 'air miles'and thus a smaller carbon footprint.

Well it was not long until people realised that the carbon footprint of a strawberry grown in the south of England in December is greater than that of one grown in its natural climate.
And not only that But the poor farmer in that natural climate was being put out of business by the industrial strawberry production in the south of England.

Yes you can. I'm against beef farming, it consumes an enormous amount of tax payer money and ultimately it only pads the wallets of a very efficient lobby who have managed to convince politicians that their otherwise inefficient small holders are worth subsidising. Make no mistake, if left up to the market most small farmers would go out of business. Our subsidies are effectively paying for inefficient farming and poor management and as a vegetarian who doesn't consume dairy (I do eat eggs and fish), I'm strongly opposed to the beef industry.

It should be replaced by horticulture and more carbon efficient sources of meat for the carnivores amongst us.

Enda Kenny asking for a climate change exemption for our supposedly beleagured, cashed up beef industry was a national disgrace. We're a wealthy country and have some neck to be moaning about the negative effects of climate action on our environment while trying to convince countries in absolute poverty that they're not allowed to carbonise their economy to get rich like we did.

troyzer · 13-11-2018 11:48am

erica74 wrote: »

I don't think the majority of people actually realise how much our economy relies on beef farming.

Beef makes up about 2% of our exports and less than 1% of our economy.

It's not THAT important. Especially when you consider the subsidies.

Graces7 · 13-11-2018 11:51am

erica74 wrote: »

I think their aim is to sell no "own brand" products which contain palm oil. However, obviously, if they're really committed, they should stop selling any products which contain palm oil.

I'm also amazed by people who have just discovered this issue. I've been aware of this for a few years as I began cleaning up my diet around 5 years ago and became really conscious of reading food labels. However, I'll be honest and say, I never would have put a number like "25 orangutans lost per day" on this issue.

Why not?
This is a seriously endangered species and that should concern all of us

While I read labels for additives etc because of serious allergies, the eco damage only came to attention with the Iceland action.

Agree totally with your first para and in time it may well come to that, hopefully.

Graces7 · 13-11-2018 11:57am

Aegir wrote: »

look for the Tesco and Aldi ones. They are own brand and not that much more expensive. The aldi one in a plastic tub looks to be either a rip off of, or made by Meridian.

It isn't just food though, Bio Diesel is also a big user of palm oil and although the worst way of producing this fuel, it also provides a massive income for poor farmers in countries like Malaysia.

Thanks. Have it sorted for now; only access to tesco and lidl for now. Was glad to see that tesco's own brand chocolate is palm oil free .

In bread too though. Will start making my own I think.

Fr Tod Umptious · 13-11-2018 11:59am

Aegir wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/how-palm-oil-ban-has-made-the-eu-a-dirty-word-in-malaysia

Yep, fcuk the locals as long as the apes can be saved and we fell good about ourselves

Graces7 · 13-11-2018 12:00pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But you can't be against beef farming in Ireland because it would adversely affect our economy in a huge way.

It's easy to be against something far away in the jungle.

But has anyone considered how much palm oil cultivation had added to the local economies ?

All the more reason to put an end to the deforestation and wiping out precious species. And let the good guys thrive

It is this gross abuse folk are against. Some firms on that sustainable list eg Cadbury, have already been delisted .

Graces7 · 13-11-2018 12:01pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yep, fcuk the locals as long as the apes can be saved and we fell good about ourselves

:rolleyes:

erica74 · 13-11-2018 12:02pm

troyzer wrote: »

Beef makes up about 2% of our exports and less than 1% of our economy.

It's not THAT important. Especially when you consider the subsidies.

The beef industry accounted for 22% of agrifood exports in 2014 with a value of €2.2bn. I know that figure is from 2014 but I'd assume it has increased not decreased since then.
(Source: agriland.ie)

Edit to add - According to Bord Bia, beef exports were worth €2.5bn in 2017 and all meat exports grew in that same year and were worth €3.8bn to Ireland.

_Brian · 13-11-2018 12:05pm

troyzer wrote: »

Most of the alternatives for palm oil are even worse.

The problem isn't palm oil itself, it's where it's planted. Palm oil is three times more productive per square kilometre than other plant oils.

This is the real issue, the insatiable demand for plant oils cannot be met without an enormous footprint. It doesn't matter whether it's palm oil, olive oil or sunflower oil. You have to get rid of plant oils full stop or at least massively reduce them. Substitution won't work, it'll make it worse. Elimination is the only option.

And that means everyone needs to give up the processed foods that make up 90% of their diet, which isn't a bad thing anyway. Until we do that, palm oil is the least ****ty plant oil.

As far as sustainable palm oil goes? It doesn't really exist. Sustainable palm oil is accredited by RSPO which is an industry body. They only specify that it can't come from an area of high ecological value. Which is really, really vague, has no legal meaning and doesn't stop them from burning forests in areas where Orangutans are and simply calling it low ecological value.

Another problem is that we might be super aware of the problem but as with most global issues nowadays, it's China and India that are the biggest consumers of palm oil and they couldn't care less about sustainability. These are countries with enormous poverty rates and they're not going to choose a more expensive alternative because a rich westerner tells them to.

Most NGOs don't want people to boycott palm oil, including Greenpeace, because then the issue is solved in our minds and we stop caring while the producers simply switch to Coconut oil instead which as I said already is even worse.

It’s sheer lazy thinking to see people throwing out the Aisa conundrum on such topics.

About a third of the population live in developed societies where the massive consumerism is driving much of these problems. If this third did everything they can it would have a huge impact overall.
It’s a convenient excuse to say “I could do it, but because the other guy isn’t doing it there’s no point so I won’t”, this has to be the laziest most selfish attitude out there.

Each individual needs to do their bit, whatever is practical for them to do, it’s onky by each person doing something does it add up to a larger impact.

Fr Tod Umptious · 13-11-2018 12:05pm

Graces7 wrote: »

All the more reason to put an end to the deforestation and wiping out precious species. And let the good guys thrive

It is this gross abuse folk are against. Some firms on that sustainable list eg Cadbury, have already been delisted .

And who exactly are the good guys ?

The local guys who drive the diggers that cut down the trees ?
The local guys who maintain the equipment to cut down the trees?
The family who run the boarding house for the workers at the site ?
The family that run the cafe at the site ?

You can't have it every way.

two wheels good · 13-11-2018 12:10pm

Photo: Deforestation in Indonesian to make way for a palm oil concession:

Can't embed the image.
Taken from the Guardian article here

I picked-up (I don't mean 'bought') a tub of Dairygold Light recently. First ingredient on the list: Palm Oil. Sustainably sourced? not a chance!

troyzer · 13-11-2018 12:14pm

erica74 wrote: »

The beef industry accounted for 22% of agrifood exports in 2014 with a value of €2.2bn. I know that figure is from 2014 but I'd assume it has increased not decreased since then.
(Source: agriland.ie)

€2.2bn and our total exports are around €130bn.

So yes, it's about 2% of exports and less than 1% of our total GDP.

It's not that important, our economy adds more value in a few months than the entire beef industry.

And again, this is just revenue. This is before you deduct the subsidies which is probably at least half. I don't know the figures exactly.

Then you consider the eye watering amount of land they use up and the fact that agriculture produces around 30% of our emissions (mostly beef). From 2020 onwards, the EU will fine us €600m a year for lack of compliance with our climate targets.

All of this adds up to the obvious reality that beef farming is not only not important to our economy, it actively damages us and bleeds us dry.

troyzer · 13-11-2018 12:16pm

_Brian wrote: »

It’s sheer lazy thinking to see people throwing out the Aisa conundrum on such topics.

About a third of the population live in developed societies where the massive consumerism is driving much of these problems. If this third did everything they can it would have a huge impact overall.
It’s a convenient excuse to say “I could do it, but because the other guy isn’t doing it there’s no point so I won’t”, this has to be the laziest most selfish attitude out there.

Each individual needs to do their bit, whatever is practical for them to do, it’s onky by each person doing something does it add up to a larger impact.

I said in my post multiple times that it's up to us to drop processed foods?

I was just saying that ultimately, it won't do a huge amount of good if rapidly growing Asian economies consume it in larger and larger amounts. But we should still do it.

Fr Tod Umptious · 13-11-2018 12:43pm

troyzer wrote: »

€2.2bn and our total exports are around €130bn.

So yes, it's about 2% of exports and less than 1% of our total GDP.

It's not that important, our economy adds more value in a few months than the entire beef industry.

And again, this is just revenue. This is before you deduct the subsidies which is probably at least half. I don't know the figures exactly.

Then you consider the eye watering amount of land they use up and the fact that agriculture produces around 30% of our emissions (mostly beef). From 2020 onwards, the EU will fine us €600m a year for lack of compliance with our climate targets.

All of this adds up to the obvious reality that beef farming is not only not important to our economy, it actively damages us and bleeds us dry.

I live in a small town with a mart.

Here is who you would effect if you stopped or curtailed the beef industry in Ireland

The people in the mart would be out of a job because there would be less sales and less mart days.

Local businesses in the town like shops and food outlets would be less well off because the reduced number of mart days.

Local mechanics would be worse off because there are less agri machines needed.

Local farmers would be worse off because they cannot sell their products.

And all for what, some fear that in one, two or three generations time the people on earth will not be able to adapt to their climate ?

None of the above are fat cats having their wallets padded by the industry, all are just normal people making a living.

troyzer · 13-11-2018 12:49pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I live in a small town with a mart.

Here is who you would effect if you stopped or curtailed the beef industry in Ireland

The people in the mart would be out of a job because there would be less sales and less mart days.

Local businesses in the town like shops and food outlets would be less well off because the reduced number of mart days.

Local mechanics would be worse off because there are less agri machines needed.

Local farmers would be worse off because they cannot sell their products.

And all for what, some fear that in one, two or three generations time the people on earth will not be able to adapt to their climate ?

None of the above are fat cats having their wallets padded by the industry, all are just normal people making a living.

If you replaced the beef farming with horticulture, none of those people would be affected and the Irish and European tax payer would save a fortune.

Any people who were affected would benefit by an invest in rural Ireland that not having to pay €1bn or so a year would free up.

Thank you, re palm oil

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