Thank you, re palm oil

erica74 · 13-11-2018 10:17AM

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Maybe ICELAND would be better off not selling products with palm oil, put their money where their mouth is.

A 1min search on their site: https://groceries.iceland.co.uk/daim-caramel-ice-cream-with-milk-chocolate-coated-daim-pieces-3-x-110ml-ml-/p/63355

Cheap marketing.

I think their aim is to sell no "own brand" products which contain palm oil. However, obviously, if they're really committed, they should stop selling any products which contain palm oil.

I'm also amazed by people who have just discovered this issue. I've been aware of this for a few years as I began cleaning up my diet around 5 years ago and became really conscious of reading food labels. However, I'll be honest and say, I never would have put a number like "25 orangutans lost per day" on this issue.

13-11-2018 10:43AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Thank you.

It IS the cost. Two or three times the cost of what I have been buying. Will find something! More home made jam....

Being English, Cadbury was such a hugely respected name. The history of the firm, the truly philanthropic work they started. The "model village" they created for workers was a total innovation

Always loved Roses; as far back as the late 40s so a change coming.

Glad though of the awareness and about to email my shopping list in, cropped and altered. Challenges are good...
even at nearly 80 years!

Blessings and thanks..

look for the Tesco and Aldi ones. They are own brand and not that much more expensive. The aldi one in a plastic tub looks to be either a rip off of, or made by Meridian.

It isn't just food though, Bio Diesel is also a big user of palm oil and although the worst way of producing this fuel, it also provides a massive income for poor farmers in countries like Malaysia.

13-11-2018 11:16AM

troyzer wrote: »

This has been an ongoing issue for decades which has gotten huge media coverage. I mean, credit to Iceland for sharing a message with people who didn't know. But were you living under a rock? I find it astonishing in 2018 that some people have only just learned about palm oil.

Did you also know that beef farming in Ireland is putting out huge carbon emissions and making it impossible for us to meet our climate targets? Did you know that the use of pesticides is wiping out bee populations? Did you know that agriculture in general has annihilated biodiversity in Ireland and that we're the most deforested country in Europe?

All of these are really common knowledge but it wouldn't surprise me if you didn't know any of them. Maybe you should spend more time reading the news?

Yup. Depressing.

But you can't be against beef farming in Ireland because it would adversely affect our economy in a huge way.

It's easy to be against something far away in the jungle.

But has anyone considered how much palm oil cultivation had added to the local economies ?

Remember about 10 years ago a supermarket chain had a great idea about putting 'air miles' on food to make people more conscious of their carbon footprint
Items that were more locally produced had less 'air miles'and thus a smaller carbon footprint.

Well it was not long until people realised that the carbon footprint of a strawberry grown in the south of England in December is greater than that of one grown in its natural climate.
And not only that But the poor farmer in that natural climate was being put out of business by the industrial strawberry production in the south of England.

13-11-2018 11:28AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But has anyone considered how much palm oil cultivation had added to the local economies ?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/how-palm-oil-ban-has-made-the-eu-a-dirty-word-in-malaysia

erica74 · 13-11-2018 11:41AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But you can't be against beef farming in Ireland because it would adversely affect our economy in a huge way.

It's easy to be against something far away in the jungle.

But has anyone considered how much palm oil cultivation had added to the local economies ?

Remember about 10 years ago a supermarket chain had a great idea about putting 'air miles' on food to make people more conscious of their carbon footprint
Items that were more locally produced had less 'air miles'and thus a smaller carbon footprint.

Well it was not long until people realised that the carbon footprint of a strawberry grown in the south of England in December is greater than that of one grown in its natural climate.
And not only that But the poor farmer in that natural climate was being put out of business by the industrial strawberry production in the south of England.

I don't think the majority of people actually realise how much our economy relies on beef farming.

troyzer · 13-11-2018 11:47AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But you can't be against beef farming in Ireland because it would adversely affect our economy in a huge way.

It's easy to be against something far away in the jungle.

But has anyone considered how much palm oil cultivation had added to the local economies ?

Remember about 10 years ago a supermarket chain had a great idea about putting 'air miles' on food to make people more conscious of their carbon footprint
Items that were more locally produced had less 'air miles'and thus a smaller carbon footprint.

Well it was not long until people realised that the carbon footprint of a strawberry grown in the south of England in December is greater than that of one grown in its natural climate.
And not only that But the poor farmer in that natural climate was being put out of business by the industrial strawberry production in the south of England.

Yes you can. I'm against beef farming, it consumes an enormous amount of tax payer money and ultimately it only pads the wallets of a very efficient lobby who have managed to convince politicians that their otherwise inefficient small holders are worth subsidising. Make no mistake, if left up to the market most small farmers would go out of business. Our subsidies are effectively paying for inefficient farming and poor management and as a vegetarian who doesn't consume dairy (I do eat eggs and fish), I'm strongly opposed to the beef industry.

It should be replaced by horticulture and more carbon efficient sources of meat for the carnivores amongst us.

Enda Kenny asking for a climate change exemption for our supposedly beleagured, cashed up beef industry was a national disgrace. We're a wealthy country and have some neck to be moaning about the negative effects of climate action on our environment while trying to convince countries in absolute poverty that they're not allowed to carbonise their economy to get rich like we did.

troyzer · 13-11-2018 11:48AM

erica74 wrote: »

I don't think the majority of people actually realise how much our economy relies on beef farming.

Beef makes up about 2% of our exports and less than 1% of our economy.

It's not THAT important. Especially when you consider the subsidies.

Graces7 · 13-11-2018 11:51AM

erica74 wrote: »

I think their aim is to sell no "own brand" products which contain palm oil. However, obviously, if they're really committed, they should stop selling any products which contain palm oil.

I'm also amazed by people who have just discovered this issue. I've been aware of this for a few years as I began cleaning up my diet around 5 years ago and became really conscious of reading food labels. However, I'll be honest and say, I never would have put a number like "25 orangutans lost per day" on this issue.

Why not?
This is a seriously endangered species and that should concern all of us

While I read labels for additives etc because of serious allergies, the eco damage only came to attention with the Iceland action.

Agree totally with your first para and in time it may well come to that, hopefully.

Graces7 · 13-11-2018 11:57AM

Aegir wrote: »

look for the Tesco and Aldi ones. They are own brand and not that much more expensive. The aldi one in a plastic tub looks to be either a rip off of, or made by Meridian.

It isn't just food though, Bio Diesel is also a big user of palm oil and although the worst way of producing this fuel, it also provides a massive income for poor farmers in countries like Malaysia.

Thanks. Have it sorted for now; only access to tesco and lidl for now. Was glad to see that tesco's own brand chocolate is palm oil free .

In bread too though. Will start making my own I think.

13-11-2018 11:59AM

Aegir wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/how-palm-oil-ban-has-made-the-eu-a-dirty-word-in-malaysia

Yep, fcuk the locals as long as the apes can be saved and we fell good about ourselves

Graces7 · 13-11-2018 12:00PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But you can't be against beef farming in Ireland because it would adversely affect our economy in a huge way.

It's easy to be against something far away in the jungle.

But has anyone considered how much palm oil cultivation had added to the local economies ?

All the more reason to put an end to the deforestation and wiping out precious species. And let the good guys thrive

It is this gross abuse folk are against. Some firms on that sustainable list eg Cadbury, have already been delisted .

Graces7 · 13-11-2018 12:01PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yep, fcuk the locals as long as the apes can be saved and we fell good about ourselves

:rolleyes:

erica74 · 13-11-2018 12:02PM

troyzer wrote: »

Beef makes up about 2% of our exports and less than 1% of our economy.

It's not THAT important. Especially when you consider the subsidies.

The beef industry accounted for 22% of agrifood exports in 2014 with a value of €2.2bn. I know that figure is from 2014 but I'd assume it has increased not decreased since then.
(Source: agriland.ie)

Edit to add - According to Bord Bia, beef exports were worth €2.5bn in 2017 and all meat exports grew in that same year and were worth €3.8bn to Ireland.

_Brian · 13-11-2018 12:05PM

troyzer wrote: »

Most of the alternatives for palm oil are even worse.

The problem isn't palm oil itself, it's where it's planted. Palm oil is three times more productive per square kilometre than other plant oils.

This is the real issue, the insatiable demand for plant oils cannot be met without an enormous footprint. It doesn't matter whether it's palm oil, olive oil or sunflower oil. You have to get rid of plant oils full stop or at least massively reduce them. Substitution won't work, it'll make it worse. Elimination is the only option.

And that means everyone needs to give up the processed foods that make up 90% of their diet, which isn't a bad thing anyway. Until we do that, palm oil is the least ****ty plant oil.

As far as sustainable palm oil goes? It doesn't really exist. Sustainable palm oil is accredited by RSPO which is an industry body. They only specify that it can't come from an area of high ecological value. Which is really, really vague, has no legal meaning and doesn't stop them from burning forests in areas where Orangutans are and simply calling it low ecological value.

Another problem is that we might be super aware of the problem but as with most global issues nowadays, it's China and India that are the biggest consumers of palm oil and they couldn't care less about sustainability. These are countries with enormous poverty rates and they're not going to choose a more expensive alternative because a rich westerner tells them to.

Most NGOs don't want people to boycott palm oil, including Greenpeace, because then the issue is solved in our minds and we stop caring while the producers simply switch to Coconut oil instead which as I said already is even worse.

It’s sheer lazy thinking to see people throwing out the Aisa conundrum on such topics.

About a third of the population live in developed societies where the massive consumerism is driving much of these problems. If this third did everything they can it would have a huge impact overall.
It’s a convenient excuse to say “I could do it, but because the other guy isn’t doing it there’s no point so I won’t”, this has to be the laziest most selfish attitude out there.

Each individual needs to do their bit, whatever is practical for them to do, it’s onky by each person doing something does it add up to a larger impact.

13-11-2018 12:05PM

Graces7 wrote: »

All the more reason to put an end to the deforestation and wiping out precious species. And let the good guys thrive

It is this gross abuse folk are against. Some firms on that sustainable list eg Cadbury, have already been delisted .

And who exactly are the good guys ?

The local guys who drive the diggers that cut down the trees ?
The local guys who maintain the equipment to cut down the trees?
The family who run the boarding house for the workers at the site ?
The family that run the cafe at the site ?

You can't have it every way.

two wheels good · 13-11-2018 12:10PM

Photo: Deforestation in Indonesian to make way for a palm oil concession:

Can't embed the image.
Taken from the Guardian article here

I picked-up (I don't mean 'bought') a tub of Dairygold Light recently. First ingredient on the list: Palm Oil. Sustainably sourced? not a chance!

troyzer · 13-11-2018 12:14PM

erica74 wrote: »

The beef industry accounted for 22% of agrifood exports in 2014 with a value of €2.2bn. I know that figure is from 2014 but I'd assume it has increased not decreased since then.
(Source: agriland.ie)

€2.2bn and our total exports are around €130bn.

So yes, it's about 2% of exports and less than 1% of our total GDP.

It's not that important, our economy adds more value in a few months than the entire beef industry.

And again, this is just revenue. This is before you deduct the subsidies which is probably at least half. I don't know the figures exactly.

Then you consider the eye watering amount of land they use up and the fact that agriculture produces around 30% of our emissions (mostly beef). From 2020 onwards, the EU will fine us €600m a year for lack of compliance with our climate targets.

All of this adds up to the obvious reality that beef farming is not only not important to our economy, it actively damages us and bleeds us dry.

troyzer · 13-11-2018 12:16PM

_Brian wrote: »

It’s sheer lazy thinking to see people throwing out the Aisa conundrum on such topics.

About a third of the population live in developed societies where the massive consumerism is driving much of these problems. If this third did everything they can it would have a huge impact overall.
It’s a convenient excuse to say “I could do it, but because the other guy isn’t doing it there’s no point so I won’t”, this has to be the laziest most selfish attitude out there.

Each individual needs to do their bit, whatever is practical for them to do, it’s onky by each person doing something does it add up to a larger impact.

I said in my post multiple times that it's up to us to drop processed foods?

I was just saying that ultimately, it won't do a huge amount of good if rapidly growing Asian economies consume it in larger and larger amounts. But we should still do it.

13-11-2018 12:43PM

troyzer wrote: »

€2.2bn and our total exports are around €130bn.

So yes, it's about 2% of exports and less than 1% of our total GDP.

It's not that important, our economy adds more value in a few months than the entire beef industry.

And again, this is just revenue. This is before you deduct the subsidies which is probably at least half. I don't know the figures exactly.

Then you consider the eye watering amount of land they use up and the fact that agriculture produces around 30% of our emissions (mostly beef). From 2020 onwards, the EU will fine us €600m a year for lack of compliance with our climate targets.

All of this adds up to the obvious reality that beef farming is not only not important to our economy, it actively damages us and bleeds us dry.

I live in a small town with a mart.

Here is who you would effect if you stopped or curtailed the beef industry in Ireland

The people in the mart would be out of a job because there would be less sales and less mart days.

Local businesses in the town like shops and food outlets would be less well off because the reduced number of mart days.

Local mechanics would be worse off because there are less agri machines needed.

Local farmers would be worse off because they cannot sell their products.

And all for what, some fear that in one, two or three generations time the people on earth will not be able to adapt to their climate ?

None of the above are fat cats having their wallets padded by the industry, all are just normal people making a living.

troyzer · 13-11-2018 12:49PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I live in a small town with a mart.

Here is who you would effect if you stopped or curtailed the beef industry in Ireland

The people in the mart would be out of a job because there would be less sales and less mart days.

Local businesses in the town like shops and food outlets would be less well off because the reduced number of mart days.

Local mechanics would be worse off because there are less agri machines needed.

Local farmers would be worse off because they cannot sell their products.

And all for what, some fear that in one, two or three generations time the people on earth will not be able to adapt to their climate ?

None of the above are fat cats having their wallets padded by the industry, all are just normal people making a living.

If you replaced the beef farming with horticulture, none of those people would be affected and the Irish and European tax payer would save a fortune.

Any people who were affected would benefit by an invest in rural Ireland that not having to pay €1bn or so a year would free up.

13-11-2018 01:07PM

troyzer wrote: »

If you replaced the beef farming with horticulture, none of those people would be affected and the Irish and European tax payer would save a fortune.

Any people who were affected would benefit by an invest in rural Ireland that not having to pay €1bn or so a year would free up.

Such a switch would take years.

Is horticultural as beneficial for the local economy as the current farming structure?

What about the environmental impact of increased horticultural, how many of x insect or y animal will have their habitat ruined by someone building a bigger horticultural farm ?

troyzer · 13-11-2018 01:25PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Such a switch would take years.

Is horticultural as beneficial for the local economy as the current farming structure?

What about the environmental impact of increased horticultural, how many of x insect or y animal will have their habitat ruined by someone building a bigger horticultural farm ?

Of course it'll take years, which is why we should have started years ago instead of actually expanding the herds. Crazy decision.

Why wouldn't horticulture be as beneficial? You could also have forestry as well, we're way behind on our re-forestation targets.

There are problems with horticulture of course, but they're much more managable.

Fr_Dougal · 13-11-2018 03:47PM

What about Koni? ZOMG he’s still out there!

troyzer · 13-11-2018 03:49PM

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

What about Koni? ZOMG he’s still out there!

DamoKen · 14-11-2018 12:24PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I live in a small town with a mart.

Here is who you would effect if you stopped or curtailed the beef industry in Ireland

The people in the mart would be out of a job because there would be less sales and less mart days.

Local businesses in the town like shops and food outlets would be less well off because the reduced number of mart days.

Local mechanics would be worse off because there are less agri machines needed.

Local farmers would be worse off because they cannot sell their products.

And all for what, some fear that in one, two or three generations time the people on earth will not be able to adapt to their climate ?

None of the above are fat cats having their wallets padded by the industry, all are just normal people making a living.

Would you say the same if the small town had a heavy industry plant emitting greenhouse gases unchecked as it's main source of employment? What if every second small rural town had one? I always find it weird that the beef industry has if you'll excuse the pun some sort of sacred cow status. Even weirder is how this status goes relatively unchallenged.

Any other industry known to be a major contributor to a nations carbon footprint (29% agriculture) would have people protesting to beat the band, fines imposed by the government, targets to reduce by in set periods. But the beef industry? The targets seem to be to increase herd size. Not only that it's rewarded with subsidies. Might be wrong but I can't think of any other industry treated like this?

Fair enough, livelihoods depend on it. But the same argument applies to factories with smokestacks belching fumes into the atmosphere which people campaign to close down.

If even China has started cracking down on pollution (https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2017/10/24/china-shuts-down-tens-of-thousands-of-factories-in-widespread-pollution-crackdown/) maybe it's time we at least acknowledged it's a big problem and started discussing ways for the industry to adapt and change before the same draconian measures are eventually introduced? That applies both at the production as well as consumer side.

At the moment though as evidenced by your post there seems to be a total unwillingness to even discuss ways of reducing this. The attitude seems more of a well that's just the way it is, deal with it. And the impact of the pollution is shrugged off as a vague possibility that "might" effect your children or grandchildren ignoring all evidence such as record droughts, storms etc that suggest that we are the generation that is going to have to start adapting to ensure the next generation has a chance to live, never mind adapt.

Graces7 · 14-11-2018 12:53PM

two wheels good wrote: »

Photo: Deforestation in Indonesian to make way for a palm oil concession:

Can't embed the image.
Taken from the Guardian article here

I picked-up (I don't mean 'bought') a tub of Dairygold Light recently. First ingredient on the list: Palm Oil. Sustainably sourced? not a chance!

I know. I am working my way through the online shopping lists on tesco and it is everywhere . Biscuits, bread, non butter spreads and soft cheese spreads. tesco have no palm oil mince pies but their mincemeat in jars has palm oil,,, it is really huge business..

Cadbury in the Uk will be getting a letter from this old lady soon. As one of their loyal supporters for nearly 70 years,,,

It is not as if it is a healthy oil. Just..... cheap.... dirt cheap.

Still so very grateful to boards re that Iceland ad.

Graces7 · 14-11-2018 12:55PM

troyzer wrote: »

I said in my post multiple times that it's up to us to drop processed foods?

I was just saying that ultimately, it won't do a huge amount of good if rapidly growing Asian economies consume it in larger and larger amounts. But we should still do it.

Thank you. Starting in our own kitchens.

Grayson · 14-11-2018 12:58PM

Aegir wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/how-palm-oil-ban-has-made-the-eu-a-dirty-word-in-malaysia

I remember reading that when it was first online. It goes to show how complicated a lot of this stuff is.

btw, I don't think anyones mentioned it but Nutella has palm oil. Although they are sustainable in their sourcing of it.

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jun/19/belgium-palm-oil-nutella-ferrero-delhaize-court-battle-environmental-health-claims

Graces7 · 14-11-2018 01:10PM

Grayson wrote: »

I remember reading that when it was first online. It goes to show how complicated a lot of this stuff is.

btw, I don't think anyones mentioned it but Nutella has palm oil. Although they are sustainable in their sourcing of it.

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jun/19/belgium-palm-oil-nutella-ferrero-delhaize-court-battle-environmental-health-claims

After hearing re Cadbury that does not surprise... and they do nto say sustainable on their current labels

I remembered that Holland and Barrett have an excellent pure food mail order site

See

https://www.hollandandbarrett.ie/shop/food-drink/honey-jams-spreads/

So I have ordered their peanut butter and chocolate spread. NO PALM OIL. Free shipping. Good prices too.

Wabbit Ears · 14-11-2018 01:10PM

TBH I dont care about the deforestation or the monkeys or anything. I dont buy products with palm oil and haven't for years because palm oil is filler muck on low quality foodstuffs.

Thank you, re palm oil

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