Guinness Pro12 Season 2020-2021

thomond2006 · 23-09-2020 3:15pm

(Can we close the old season thread?)

I notice the interpros are being held over for later weekends, I assume in the hope crowds are back by then.

Buer · 23-09-2020 3:34pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

bokke SR sides joining pro-xx would only make sense if they got a place into europe.

god knows theyd make a better fist of it than the welsh sides ever did.

Logistically, I'm not sure how it's going to work. As much as possible, Pro14 teams try to do back to back games in SA. When top teams have had only a single game there, they've sent the second string.

In Super Rugby, teams used do mini tours if they had to visit SA, packaging multiple games into one trip.

In European rugby, that's not going to be possible. Teams will play in SA and potentially have a return fixture 6-7 days later after a 10 hour flight home. Ideally, you'll be the team that plays the SA side back to back and have the home fixture first up meaning the SA team will have had a long haul flight before each fixture.

I think their joining is inevitable but it's going to be another contentious situation adding to the luck of the draw element.

Buer · 23-09-2020 3:37pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

(Can we close the old season thread?)

I notice the interpros are being held over for later weekends, I assume in the hope crowds are back by then.

I think you can plan without crowds for the season. The government roadmap has significant restrictions for crowds even at Level 1.The timeline of this plan was to bring us up to April 2021.

I understand stadiums can have a more bespoke approach but, best case scenario, we're still looking at drastically reduced crowds. Maybe a few thousand?

Cookiemunster · 23-09-2020 3:38pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

(Can we close the old season thread?)

I notice the interpros are being held over for later weekends, I assume in the hope crowds are back by then.

Obviously we don't have any pre ECC interpros, but they're in their normal Christmas/New year slots really. As usual Munster host Leinster on St. Stephens day and head to Ravenhill in the new year.

It's also noticeable that in the 11 announced rounds everyone plays everyone once. I wonder if that's a fallback position. Cut the league there if you have to and declare a champion and euro qualifiers.

23-09-2020 3:59pm

teams can't travel with the general public. Private charters needed

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro14/pro14-teams-need-private-planes-to-keep-show-on-the-road-1.4361785

Cookiemunster · 23-09-2020 4:04pm

Josie Narrow Hobo wrote: »

teams can't travel with the general public. Private charters needed

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro14/pro14-teams-need-private-planes-to-keep-show-on-the-road-1.4361785

I don't know about other teams, but I'm pretty sure that outside of the SA trips Munster always used private charters.

And after reading the article, it pretty much says that they all do. I'm not sure why they bothered with that headline TBH.

lawrencesummers · 23-09-2020 4:16pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I don't know about other teams, but I'm pretty sure that outside of the SA trips Munster always used private charters.

And after reading the article, it pretty much says that they all do. I'm not sure why they bothered with that headline TBH.

For European games it’s always private charter.
For league games not always but depends on a few factors.

awec · 23-09-2020 4:34pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

bokke SR sides joining pro-xx would only make sense if they got a place into europe.

god knows theyd make a better fist of it than the welsh sides ever did.

Yes, they need European places. Tough ask as there's not much in it for English or French teams.

But the Pro14 should absolutely not take in any more SARU clubs that are not the current SR franchises.

thomond2006 · 23-09-2020 4:41pm

awec wrote: »

But the Pro14 should absolutely not take in any more SARU clubs that are not the current SR franchises.

I don't think those teams (Griquas, Pumas?) will be in any shape to join anyway.

awec · 23-09-2020 4:46pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

I don't think those teams (Griquas, Pumas?) will be in any shape to join anyway.

They foisted the Kings on us, take nothing for granted!

The ProWhatever would let the Sydney Fishermen 3rd XV join the league if they brought a few quid with them.

Buer · 23-09-2020 4:50pm

awec wrote: »

They foisted the Kings on us, take nothing for granted!

The ProWhatever would let the Sydney Fishermen 3rd XV join the league if they brought a few quid with them.

The Pro14 will cast its net far and wide to steady the ship and, if they get a nibble, the Sydney Fisherman 3rd XV would be a good catch.

Kevski · 23-09-2020 7:25pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I don't know about other teams, but I'm pretty sure that outside of the SA trips Munster always used private charters.

And after reading the article, it pretty much says that they all do. I'm not sure why they bothered with that headline TBH.

Leinster fly with CityJet which is technically a charter, but the remaining seats on the plane that weren’t taken up by the team were open to supporters. I guess they’re ruling out that kind of situation going forwards.

Tomtom364 · 23-09-2020 11:03pm

lawrencesummers wrote: »

For European games it’s always private charter.
For league games not always but depends on a few factors.

Where commercial flights would be sufficient they used them for European too. It's just more often then not there wouldn't be a fitting flight.

yerrahbah · 24-09-2020 9:57am

Is there an affinity from Welsh rugby supporters to Saracens?

The few of them that I follow seem to absolutely love them

https://twitter.com/simonrug/status/1308906032073240578

sydthebeat · 24-09-2020 10:22am

Simon Thomas has long been an advocate for Welsh teams joining the premiership.

He routinely mentions that the worst decision ever by Welsh rugby was not taking the 5 places offered to Wales to join the English club structure back in 1998

Squidgy Black · 24-09-2020 10:47am

yerrahbah wrote: »

Is there an affinity from Welsh rugby supporters to Saracens?

The few of them that I follow seem to absolutely love them

https://twitter.com/simonrug/status/1308906032073240578

No there's just an affinity from Welsh rugby supporters to anything but the pro14. They're all desperate to either try and join the Gallagher Premiership or a B&I league.

Buer · 24-09-2020 10:56am

sydthebeat wrote: »

He routinely mentions that the worst decision ever by Welsh rugby was not taking the 5 places offered to Wales to join the English club structure back in 1998

He has a point.

sydthebeat · 24-09-2020 11:15am

Buer wrote: »

He has a point.

Yes he does, however the ship has well sailed at this stage though.... and the begrudgery of that decision is one of the reasons the welsh regional club structure is on the precipice of failure.

AbusesToilets · 24-09-2020 2:30pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Yes he does, however the ship has well sailed at this stage though.... and the begrudgery of that decision is one of the reasons the welsh regional club structure is on the precipice of failure.

Of course those Welsh teams would be just as broke and on the verge of collapse as the other Premiership teams, but that's not important

Digifriendly · 24-09-2020 2:41pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Of course those Welsh teams would be just as broke and on the verge of collapse as the other Premiership teams, but that's not important

Are the English Premiership teams really on verge of collapse? I thought it was the Championship teams.

sydthebeat · 24-09-2020 2:49pm

Digifriendly wrote: »

Are the English Premiership teams really on verge of collapse? I thought it was the Championship teams.

https://www.ft.com/content/99ad196a-f949-4039-95d7-bb70b384cd45

https%3A%2F%2Fd6c748xw2pzm8.cloudfront.net%2Fprod%2F923eb640-f835-11ea-a8d9-430bec442c3f-standard.png?dpr=1&fit=scale-down&quality=highest&source=next&width=700

apart from Exeter all other premisershiop clubs are running at a constant loss.

sugar daddies are keeping that league afloat.

Exeter came out last month to say they are losing 1 million pound a month due to covid

theres no way 5 welsh clubs would have survived from 1998 to now competing against that, with their current financing structures.

Digifriendly · 25-09-2020 5:08am

sydthebeat wrote: »

https://www.ft.com/content/99ad196a-f949-4039-95d7-bb70b384cd45

apart from Exeter all other premisershiop clubs are running at a constant loss.

sugar daddies are keeping that league afloat.

Exeter came out last month to say they are losing 1 million pound a month due to covid

theres no way 5 welsh clubs would have survived from 1998 to now competing against that, with their current financing structures.

Thanks for this. If no crowds for 6 months surely we could see some clubs literally going under.

bilston · 25-09-2020 8:44am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Simon Thomas has long been an advocate for Welsh teams joining the premiership.

He routinely mentions that the worst decision ever by Welsh rugby was not taking the 5 places offered to Wales to join the English club structure back in 1998

He's spot on!

I'd happily take Saracens in the Pro X for a season. Its not really feasible for them getting back into the Premiership, but then if there is no Championship (is that what is being suggested?) then where else do they play?

bilston · 25-09-2020 8:52am

Digifriendly wrote: »

Thanks for this. If no crowds for 6 months surely we could see some clubs literally going under.

The UK govt need to rethink this.

Yes the fight against Covid is much more important, nobody will dispute that, but a blanket ban on spectators watchingive sport makes no sense.

No one is suggesting we pack grounds to the limit, and yes there may be localised restrictions depending on events on the ground. But if you are able to go to an indoor venue (pub/restaurant) then you can surely get grounds up to 20% full at least.

Stagger arrival times and departure times...yes it would be a logistical challenge, but it can be done. Make people wear masks, cover the place with sanitiser stations. Stick a £10 or €10 Covid premium of the price of tickets, people will pay it just to see live sport. Even £/€20 and I reckon people will still go. It's outdoors, we're constantly told the virus is much less of a threat outdoors.

Paul Smeenus · 29-09-2020 1:15pm

600 fans at the Ulster game on Friday.

Cookiemunster · 29-09-2020 4:28pm

Pro 16 is happening.

http://www.fscheetahs.co.za/news/toyota-cheetahs-reviewing-their-options-20200929

The Toyota Cheetahs managed to negotiate its participation as a fifth franchise in a Super 8 competition, with additional income.

The four metro franchises were voted in to participate in the PRO16 competition in Europe.

According to Harold Verster, Managing Director of the Free State Cheetahs, the Cheetahs reserve their rights.

The implications of the business model have to be assessed and the board will decide on the way forward.

The local competitions are exciting and offer a good prospect because of the fact that it is a competition that all fourteen South-African franchises will be taking part in after which a Currie Cup double round, home and away, will take place with all eight teams.

thomond2006 · 29-09-2020 4:37pm

The Cheetahs are undercutting Celtic Rugby and SA Rugby by releasing that statement. Unfortunately they were the odd team out.

Podge_irl · 29-09-2020 4:41pm

Yeah, but they were in the Pro14 in the first place because they were the odd team out and this was their backup. Now their backup has been pulled out from under them - I can understand their frustration.

Buer · 29-09-2020 4:45pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Cheetahs are undercutting Celtic Rugby and SA Rugby by releasing that statement. Unfortunately they were the odd team out.

I don't blame them. They've been totally screwed over here. They were actually contributing to the Pro14, unlike the Kings.

sydthebeat · 29-09-2020 4:49pm

they are a glorified currie cup level team.

Let them concentrate on that competition to progress professionally, because they will not progress with the status quo in celtic league rugby

thomond2006 · 29-09-2020 4:54pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

they are a glorified currie cup level team.

Let them concentrate on that competition to progress professionally, because they will not progress with the status quo in celtic league rugby

The Cheetahs qualified for the playoffs in their first season, missed out in the second and were in contention in their third before COVID-19 struck. This was despite a revolving door of players which included departees to the Super Rugby sides during the Pro14 season. They benefitted massively from playing at altitude but they were worth their place. They contributed a lot to the league. Some are lumping in with the Kings which is like comparing Cardiff to Zebre.

Buer wrote: »

I don't blame them. They've been totally screwed over here. They were actually contributing to the Pro14, unlike the Kings.

It's heartbreaking for the supporters.

AdamD · 29-09-2020 4:56pm

The Cheetahs have been pretty shafted here. Suits the league to get the big 4 teams in though

awec · 29-09-2020 4:58pm

They had 3 games against the kings every year and practically lose no players during test windows.

The cheetahs aren’t that good.

thomond2006 · 29-09-2020 5:00pm

awec wrote: »

They had 3 games against the kings every year and practically lose no players during test windows.

The cheetahs aren’t that good.

Yeah, imagine getting hammered by them! :pac:
https://www.ulsterrugby.com/report/toyota-cheetahs-63-ulster-26/#report

Look, they aren't that good and had massive advantages. However they didn't lose players during test windows because they had barely any test players in the first place. The likes of Mampimpi and Ox Nche got out of there at the first opportunity.

sydthebeat · 29-09-2020 5:00pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Cheetahs qualified for the playoffs in their first season, just missed out in the second and were in contention in their third before COVID-19 struck.

They contributed a lot to the league. Some are lumping in with the Kings which is like comparing Cardiff to Zebre.

im not arguing against that.

im saying their level is to be vying for the currie cup each season (won it last year!)

the cheetahs squads is essentially the free state cheetahs squad... a currie cup team.

what im saying is each of the 4 super rugby franchise SA squads will be better than the cheetahs.

the last time the cheetahs competed with the other Super Rugby franchises in a competitive league (2016), they finished 2nd last of the booke teams (ahead of the kings unsurprisingly.. but on only 21 points... exactly half that of the next bokke team, the bulls , on 42 points. in 2015 they finished last, no kings that year.

so what im arguing is the cheetahs are easily the worst of the possible 5 bokke teams that could enter the celtic league... and for the leagues sake, id much prefer the best 4 to join.

Eod100 · 29-09-2020 5:04pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Cheetahs are undercutting Celtic Rugby and SA Rugby by releasing that statement. Unfortunately they were the odd team out.

There's been rumblings for a while now. Guess they're naturally not too happy with the outcome for them

Buer · 29-09-2020 5:04pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

they are a glorified currie cup level team.

Let them concentrate on that competition to progress professionally, because they will not progress with the status quo in celtic league rugby

Yes, they are.

But that still puts them at a better level than a large chunk of the Pro14. They made the playoffs in their first season and were in with a very strong chance of making them this season before the season was curtailed.

Their biggest problem was player retention. They had a very good first season, got absolutely pillaged the summer after, had a poor year then with a significantly weakened squad and then bounced back to be decent again this season.

If they had sustained presence in the league along with the money that would come with it, I could see them being genuine contenders within the next few years. Instead, they've been dumped.

With the others competing in Europe, it will be very interesting to see how many of their top players stick around or do some of them move to Europe and use it as a shop window the same as Cheetahs players did.

bilston · 29-09-2020 5:13pm

It's tough on the Cheetahs, and if a way can be found to keep them involved then great...but if not then we need to look after ourselves. Rugby, like many things is in a financially perilous state. If this move helps Irish rugby, then so be it.

Having the Bulls, Sharks, Lions and Stormers in the league will be incredible. Shame if it comes at the expense of the Cheetahs, but we need to look after ourselves here.

sydthebeat · 29-09-2020 5:21pm

Buer wrote: »

Yes, they are.

But that still puts them at a better level than a large chunk of the Pro14. They made the playoffs in their first season and were in with a very strong chance of making them this season before the season was curtailed.

Their biggest problem was player retention. They had a very good first season, got absolutely pillaged the summer after, had a poor year then with a significantly weakened squad and then bounced back to be decent again this season.

If they had sustained presence in the league along with the money that would come with it, I could see them being genuine contenders within the next few years. Instead, they've been dumped.

With the others competing in Europe, it will be very interesting to see how many of their top players stick around or do some of them move to Europe and use it as a shop window the same as Cheetahs players did.

their best players will do what their best players have done for the past number of seasons... they will join better teams.
Last year Ox Nche and henco venter, two of their best players, head off to the sharks. They are a feeder team to the bigger clubs, that their reality.

i have sympathy for them, but give a cold hard choice of the cheetahs instead of any of the other 4 franchises... no thanks. each of the SA franchises which comes in will be at least competitive, and a couple will have aims to win it.

That sympathy is tempered to a degree however when you consider that the celtic league offered them a lifeline where no other competition existed for them.

awec · 29-09-2020 6:04pm

The bulls, sharks, stormers and lions need to ensure they keep their best players. That's going to be hard without europe.

This is good news so long as they maintain their standard, and don't get dragged down by a drain of talent.

Rugbymad2020 · 29-09-2020 6:07pm

awec wrote: »

They had 3 games against the kings every year and practically lose no players during test windows.

The cheetahs aren’t that good.

All the people saying cheetahs and kings don’t belong as they not competitive is abit like Ireland when it comes to world cups?let’s leave all the teams that aren’t competitive in WC at home too?fact is cheetahs can and will beat any team in Europe on their day and they have proven that.dispite all the travel they have to do and all the players they lose as well as play in multiple comps each year

sydthebeat · 29-09-2020 6:17pm

Rugbymad2020 wrote: »

......fact is cheetahs can and will beat any team in Europe on their day and they have proven that.....

apart from the rest of your drivel....

how you came up with the above gem is mind boggling... seeing as, to my knowledge, then have never played any european team outside of the celtic league.

UAEguy2020 · 29-09-2020 7:05pm

If these teams join I really hope they change the format also, I really dislike the 2 conference system as its just a pile of mumbo jumbo.

If we must do a conference system I would like it to be Irish conference, SA conference, Wales Conference, Scotland/Italy conference. Or just go back to the league format.

Rugbymad2020 · 29-09-2020 7:07pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

apart from the rest of your drivel....

how you came up with the above gem is mind boggling... seeing as, to my knowledge, then have never played any european team outside of the celtic league.

They beat ur Leinster team who u all seem to think are the big boys in Europe....but they not even top 3

UAEguy2020 · 29-09-2020 7:14pm

Rugbymad2020 wrote: »

They beat ur Leinster team who u all seem to think are the big boys in Europe....but they not even top 3

You mean a 2nd string Leinster team in 2016?

Dog Botherer · 29-09-2020 7:19pm

this guy really loves BIGing up the Cheetahs, must be a real fan of those BOKs.

sydthebeat · 29-09-2020 7:55pm

Dog Botherer wrote: »

this guy really loves BIGing up the Cheetahs, must be a real fan of those BOKs.

hasnt grown up any since either

Paul Smeenus · 29-09-2020 8:07pm

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

If these teams join I really hope they change the format also, I really dislike the 2 conference system as its just a pile of mumbo jumbo.

If we must do a conference system I would like it to be Irish conference, SA conference, Wales Conference, Scotland/Italy conference. Or just go back to the league format.

Don't like this idea at all, and it makes a league massively lopsided. Munster could be the third team in the Irish conference - are they really the equivalent of the third team n the Scot/Italy conference?

I mean, I don't like the two conferences either, but that would be worse.

Dog Botherer · 29-09-2020 8:11pm

Yeah the conferences are bad enough as is, adding more won’t help that

UAEguy2020 · 29-09-2020 8:20pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Don't like this idea at all, and it makes a league massively lopsided. Munster could be the third team in the Irish conference - are they really the equivalent of the third team n the Scot/Italy conference?

I mean, I don't like the two conferences either, but that would be worse.

My view would be for the QF have the top team from each conference and the final 4 teams based on the combined total. So you could potentially have Munster and Ulster still advance for example.

Guinness Pro12 Season 2020-2021

Comments